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How can we prove taqleed to akhbaari?

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On 12/15/2017 at 2:05 PM, mohammad nadeem said:

S. A,  I have been having debate with akhbaris on the matter of taqleed,  I need strong evidence to support my stand,  please assist if someone knows? 

The problem with Akhbaris is that they use books and sources of maraja'e to disprove maraja'e and taqleed. Ask them to bring forth a book other than Nahjul Balagha since Syed Razi was one of the most pious and learned scholars and see if they have a response.

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On 12/15/2017 at 4:35 PM, shiaman14 said:

The problem with Akhbaris is that they use books and sources of maraja'e to disprove maraja'e and taqleed. Ask them to bring forth a book other than Nahjul Balagha since Syed Razi was one of the most pious and learned scholars and see if they have a response.

This is the normal and correct methodology in that when we want to prove something to a Sunni we use their books and not ours for ours are not a hujjah on them. These things have evolved to authenticity and stuff like that but we can suffice with opponents books. 

No so called pseudo akhbari(a term used just because there is rebellion and arrogance in the blood) is not in taqlid of someone who is more knowledgeable amongst themselves. 

They themselves follow their more knowledgeable for if that were not true then they themselves should have mastered all the resources to even begin to analyse and understand and implement a hadith. 

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18 hours ago, mohammad nadeem said:

S. A,  I have been having debate with akhbaris on the matter of taqleed,  I need strong evidence to support my stand,  please assist if someone knows? 

Alaikas Salaam, 

Just hand them Behar ul Anwaar in arabic and ask them to put fatha, kasra and zamma in one hadith properly.

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On 12/16/2017 at 7:10 AM, haideriam said:

This is the normal and correct methodology in that when we want to prove something to a Sunni we use their books and not ours for ours are not a hujjah on them. These things have evolved to authenticity and stuff like that but we can suffice with opponents books. 

No brother. A sunni believes in Muhammad Al-Bukhari and so relies on his books.

An Akbari does not believe in the scholars but still uses their books and works to create his own beliefs and therein lies their sheer stupidity.

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What is even wrong with Akhbaris if they have free time to look laws from Quran and Sunnah? Most of the Muslims (even Sunnis) do Taqleed by just asking a Scholar a question of halal/haram, and I believe it is a blessing because most of us don't have time or knowledge to seek laws by ourselves from Qur'an and Hadiths.

Edited by Dhulfikar

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17 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

An Akbari does not believe in the scholars but still uses their books and works to create his own beliefs and therein lies their sheer stupidity. 

It's not like that brother. Akhbari believes in Quran and Akhbaar (plural of khabara i.e. News, Report, Ahadith) and nothing else. They believe in kutube arbah and consider them authentic without the need for any scrutiny. They reject the present day ijtihaad. Akhbaris claim that Imam (atfs) had in his last letter asked the shias to consult the narrator of our traditions. So the practice of taqleed is an innovation. The first to oppose ijtihaad was Mohammed Amin Astarabadi and led the Akhbari movement.  

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1 hour ago, Sirius_Bright said:

It's not like that brother. Akhbari believes in Quran and Akhbaar (plural of khabara i.e. News, Report, Ahadith) and nothing else. They believe in kutube arbah and consider them authentic without the need for any scrutiny. They reject the present day ijtihaad. Akhbaris claim that Imam (atfs) had in his last letter asked the shias to consult the narrator of our traditions. So the practice of taqleed is an innovation. The first to oppose ijtihaad was Mohammed Amin Astarabadi and led the Akhbari movement.  

Salaam brother,

Yes, that is my point. They believe in the kutube arbah which were written by the very scholars they reject.

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16 hours ago, Sirius_Bright said:

Alaikas Salaam. 

I haven't seen them rejecting Shaikh Sadooq, Kulayni and Tusi. 

So if we asked an Akhbari to go into taqleed of any of these scholars, what would their answer be?

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38 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

So if we asked an Akhbari to go into taqleed of any of these scholars, what would their answer be?

They'll say they do taqleed of Imam-e-Zamana (atfs). Famous answer.

As far as I know, there wasn't the kind of taqleed as we have today. The greats like Saduq and Tusi collected and compiled traditions of fiqh according to the topics and people used to refer it for their day to day life issues. Things started evolving and people now began to follow a single marja'a. And today we have either do taqleed, do ijtihad (become mujtahid) or act according to precaution.

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31 minutes ago, Sirius_Bright said:

They'll say they do taqleed of Imam-e-Zamana (atfs). Famous answer.

As far as I know, there wasn't the kind of taqleed as we have today. The greats like Saduq and Tusi collected and compiled traditions of fiqh according to the topics and people used to refer it for their day to day life issues. Things started evolving and people now began to follow a single marja'a. And today we have either do taqleed, do ijtihad (become mujtahid) or act according to precaution.

Thanks brother. That is my point. If they said they will only do taqleed on the writers of Kitab Al-Arbah - no problem. but to use their books and then say they do taqleed of Imam-e-Zamana (as) is sheer misguidance since they are not in direct or even indirect contact with Imam-e-Zamana (as).

33 minutes ago, Sirius_Bright said:

The greats like Saduq and Tusi collected and compiled traditions of fiqh according to the topics and people used to refer it for their day to day life issues.

Essentially, that is what taqleed is. 

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3 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

Thanks brother. That is my point. If they said they will only do taqleed on the writers of Kitab Al-Arbah - no problem. but to use their books and then say they do taqleed of Imam-e-Zamana (as) is sheer misguidance since they are not in direct or even indirect contact with Imam-e-Zamana (as).

Essentially, that is what taqleed is. 

Brother I think there is a misunderstanding here and let me explain.

The Sunnis use the book of Ahadhees compiled by Bukhari but do not do the taqleed of Bukhari. 

They do the Taqleed of 

Abu Hanafi

Malik

Shafi'i

Ahmad ibn Hanbal. 

I hope this clarifies this position. 

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6 hours ago, Sirius_Bright said:

They'll say they do taqleed of Imam-e-Zamana (atfs). Famous answer.

As far as I know, there wasn't the kind of taqleed as we have today. The greats like Saduq and Tusi collected and compiled traditions of fiqh according to the topics and people used to refer it for their day to day life issues. Things started evolving and people now began to follow a single marja'a. And today we have either do taqleed, do ijtihad (become mujtahid) or act according to precaution.

Taqleed being wajib, and not doing it resulting in your a'maal not counting -was a later concept.

Back in Tusi's days, there was no official Usooli vs Akhbari beef.

Edited by Sumerian

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4 hours ago, haideriam said:

Brother I think there is a misunderstanding here and let me explain.

The Sunnis use the book of Ahadhees compiled by Bukhari but do not do the taqleed of Bukhari. 

They do the Taqleed of 

Abu Hanafi

Malik

Shafi'i

Ahmad ibn Hanbal. 

I hope this clarifies this position. 

Yes, I am well aware. The point is sunnis don't accept Bukhari 's hadith and reject following him. 

Whereas Akhbaris take the books but reject the very scholars that wrote those books.

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15 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

Yes, I am well aware. The point is sunnis don't accept Bukhari 's hadith and reject following him. 

Whereas Akhbaris take the books but reject the very scholars that wrote those books.

 Says who bro. The Sunnis consider this book second to none, so who says they do not accept Bukhari hadith. So to sum up they follow the hadith of Bukhari but do not follow or do taqleed of him. Rest as explained earlier.

Second one I will explain later. 

 

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Here is a famous tradition from Imam of Time (atf) who said:

وَاَمَّا الْحَوَادِثُ الْوَاقِعَۃُ فَارْجِعُوْا فِیْھَا اِلیٰ رُوَاۃِ حَدِیْثِنَا فَاِنَّھُمْ حُجَّتِیْ عَلَیْکُمْ وَاَنَا حُجَّۃُ اللّٰہِ عَلَیْھِمْ.[3]

“And regarding the occurrence of new problems and issues, you refer to the narrators of our traditions, since they are my authority (hujjat) upon you as I am the authority of Allah upon them”

[urll="http://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/question/fa25329"] source[/url]

 

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On ‎16‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 12:05 AM, mohammad nadeem said:

S. A,  I have been having debate with akhbaris on the matter of taqleed,  I need strong evidence to support my stand,  please assist if someone knows? 

Just add "hence proved" at the end of your argument :D

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On 12/15/2017 at 8:05 PM, mohammad nadeem said:

S. A,  I have been having debate with akhbaris on the matter of taqleed,  I need strong evidence to support my stand,  please assist if someone knows? 

I don;t think this is enough or exactly what you are looking for, but this could be helpful. 
Watch this video around 13:15 , and possible before that to see where he was talking about before this point.
 

 

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22 hours ago, haideriam said:

 Says who bro. The Sunnis consider this book second to none, so who says they do not accept Bukhari hadith. So to sum up they follow the hadith of Bukhari but do not follow or do taqleed of him. Rest as explained earlier.

I thought this didnt need explaining but anyway:

The point is sunnis don't accept Bukhari 's hadith and reject following him. They accept the hadith and follow him too or at least issue fatwas based on narrations from it.

Thanks for your enlightenment. 

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On 12/15/2017 at 8:05 PM, mohammad nadeem said:

S. A,  I have been having debate with akhbaris on the matter of taqleed,  I need strong evidence to support my stand,  please assist if someone knows? 

Wa alaikum salam

In a famous hadith, `Umar ibn Hanzalah asked Imam Ja`far as-Sadiq, peace be upon him, about the legality of two Shi'ahs seeking a verdict from an illegitimate ruler in a dispute over a debt or a legacy. The Imam's answer was that it was absolutely forbidden to do so. 

Then Ibn Hanzalah asked what the two should do, and the Imam replied: "They must seek out one of you who narrates our traditions, who is versed in what is permissible and what is forbidden, who is well-acquainted with our laws and ordinances, and accept him as judge and arbiter, for I appoint him as judge over you. If the ruling which he based on our laws is rejected, this rejection will be tantamount to ignoring the order of Allah and rejecting us is the same as rejecting Allah, and this is the same as polytheism."

Shaykh al-Kulayni, Furu`u 'l-Kafi, vol. 7, p. 412.

In another tradition from Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq, this time narrated by Imam Hasan al-`Askari, peace be upon them, he says, "...but if there is anyone among the fuqaha' who is in control over his own self, protects his religion, suppresses his evil desires and is obedient to the commands of his Master, then the people should follow him."

Shaykh at-Tabarsi, al-Ihtijaj, vo. 2, p. 263.

A third hadith is from the Present Imam, Muhammad al-Mahdi, peace be upon him, who said in a reply to Ishaq ibn Ya'qub: "As far as newly occurring circumstances are concerned, you should turn (for guidance) to the narrators of our ahadith, for they are my proof over you just as I am Allah's proof."

Shaykh at-Tabarsi, al-Ihtijaj, vo. 2 , p. 283

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54 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

The point is sunnis don't accept Bukhari 's hadith and reject following him. They accept the hadith and follow him too or at least issue fatwas based on narrations from it.

Says who, just look at this wiki page para copy

Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī (Arabic: صحيح البخاري‎), also known as Bukhari Sharif (Arabic: بخاري شريف‎), is one of the Kutub al-Sittah (six major hadith collections) of Sunni Islam. These prophetic traditions, or hadith, were collected by the Muslim scholar Muhammad al-Bukhari, after being transmitted orally for generations. Sunni Muslims view this as one of the two most trusted collections of hadith along with Sahih Muslim, yet not generally infallible.[1][2] It is also used as an authentic hadith collection by Zaidi Shia Muslims.[3] In some circles, it is considered the most authentic book after the Quran.[4][page needed][5] The Arabic word sahih translates as authentic or correct.[6]

Once you have understood then then we can deal with the Akhbari confusion of the issue. 

Sounds fair and easy. 

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2 minutes ago, haideriam said:

Says who, just look at this wiki page para copy

Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī (Arabic: صحيح البخاري‎), also known as Bukhari Sharif (Arabic: بخاري شريف‎), is one of the Kutub al-Sittah (six major hadith collections) of Sunni Islam. These prophetic traditions, or hadith, were collected by the Muslim scholar Muhammad al-Bukhari, after being transmitted orally for generations. Sunni Muslims view this as one of the two most trusted collections of hadith along with Sahih Muslim, yet not generally infallible.[1][2] It is also used as an authentic hadith collection by Zaidi Shia Muslims.[3] In some circles, it is considered the most authentic book after the Quran.[4][page needed][5] The Arabic word sahih translates as authentic or correct.[6]

Once you have understood then then we can deal with the Akhbari confusion of the issue. 

Sounds fair and easy. 

Only misunderstanding is your english. Read slowly:

sunnis don't accept Bukhari 's hadith AND reject following him
sunnis do accept Bukhari 's hadith AND accept following him

Akhbaris accept hadith from Tusi BUT reject following him

Focus on the AND and the BUT.

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