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Aisha1998

Are Ahlul-Bayt mentioned in the Quran?

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41 minutes ago, skyweb1987 said:

Replied earlier as given below :

These are sufficient evidences to reject your assumptions.

can you quote me an ayah that tells us about the day of judgment and Allah commanding us to believe in it?

35 minutes ago, skyweb1987 said:

The it provides confirmed evidence that man made caliphate has noting to do with the religion and thus it is rejected from our side.

Thus The principle of appointment of imams/ leaders/ caliphs / prophet s as chosen representatives by Allah swt that is described in many verses of Quran is well proven to be followed by Muslims as follower of the religion.

lol. sure. that is an incorrect analogy but okay. you dont have to believe in any such thing to be a good muslim. 

21 minutes ago, skyweb1987 said:

The principle of chosen representatives of Allah swt including the prophets imams, caliphs and  leaders is well defined in many verses of quran that rejects man  made caliphate system for  the religion. 

On the same lines with many evidences from verses of  Quran and relevant  hadith the doctrine of 12 imams is well defined in quran, 

wasalam

that isnt even the point.

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22 minutes ago, just a muslim said:

lol. sure. that is an incorrect analogy but okay. you dont have to believe in any such thing to be a good muslim. 

Thanks for mentioning the truth we do not believe in man made caliphate that does not exist in quran  as pointed out in earlier post.

For  the doctrine of 12 imams  we have provided sufficient evidences from quran in this thread that are verses of quran for a true muslim

A single verse of quran  cannot be denied by a true Muslim

wasaalm

Edited by skyweb1987

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11 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

Okay say that there is textual evidence that God exists. Now according to you, we need to believe in that textual evidence (ie Quranic verses that God exists etc) to believe that God exists. But what if a person doesn't believe in God to start with? That person isn't even certain that God exists. So would that person require Quran to prove that God exists or his rationality to come to a conclusion?

rationality. but that is because the quran tells us to ponder over the existence of God. many places. it doesnt tell us to ponder over whether we should pray salah or not. nor does it tell us to ponder over whether there will be a day of judgment or not. nor about prophethood. nor about any other belief, as far as i am aware. feel free to bring a counter example. we only use our rationale to arrive at the conclusion that God exists and He is One. after that, we submit to whatever that God tells us.

11 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

The same goes with Christianity. They have textual evidences that trinity exists, but it goes against their rationality. I wonder why Sunnis jump to rationality when they try to reject the idea of trinity. But why don't they use their rationality to reject Imamah.

you are not talking to sunnis in general. you are talking to me. and i dont use the rationality argument to disprove trinity. and hence, being consistent, i dont use rationality to reject imamah.

11 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

We can all rationally prove that according to Islam slavery should be abolished. There is no Quranic verse on this matter, does that mean that I go ahead and buy slaves in this era?

we can rationally prove that slavery should be abolished. but how does that make it "according to islam"? also, what do you mean by slavery? the western concept of slavery and islamic concept of slavery are two very different things. western concept of slavery is haram in islam. the one that was allowed has not been directly abolished as it is not something to be ashamed of. i can explain to you the hikmah of slavery in the first place if you want. but i can bring you a verse from the quran which gives slaves the right to demand their freedom. 

11 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

I do believe Allah has given us a basic level of intellect to come to a rational conclusions. I don't know what subjective matters you're referring to. Yeah, sometimes people might have an immature mind and it might not be properly trained to come to rational conclusions. But does that mean we don't think and use logic?

I know for a fact that all Sunnis find it irrational that they should love Muhawiya and Imam Ali (as) at the same time, but they refuse to go in align with their rationality.

yes. we do have rationale. and it is pretty good to be honest. but it is still limited. and even though we can understand most of the things in religion, we cant use it to reject or add things in religion. for example, ibrahim a.s. was asked to sacrifice his child. now, can you honestly tell me that such a command makes sense? it would be rational to dismiss such a command by declaring it not from Allah. but since ibrahim a.s. knew it was from Allah, he didnt reason it. he submitted. similarly, we should not try to reason something into or out of islam. we determind if it actually is from God. if it is, then we submit. if not, only then we dismiss. 

not really. sunnis believe all sahaba should be loved. so it is fine for them, even if the sahaba fought with each other. i dont share this belief. love of Ali r.a. is a sign of a momin and his hatred is a sign of a hypocrite. he has great great virutes. while there are not so good reports about muawiya even in sunni literature. to compare the two is going against the quran itself. 

11 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

Anyways, I'm waiting for you to rationally reject Imamah! I am willing to become a Sunni then :)

 

1 hour ago, skyweb1987 said:

If you can easily back up all of our points, can you rationally reject imamah as brother @ali_fatheroforphans said? Let's see your knowledge put to the test.

1. why should i? should you not first prove imamah to me rationally as you are the one who claims it?

2. what will a rational proof attain anyway? this will go into a deeper issue of what the source of shariah is. i do not accept rationality to be a source of shariah. only quran and sunnah. and i say this because of the second part of our favorite ayah 4:59. if you disagree in anything, turn it to Allah and his messenger. not rationale.

Edited by just a muslim

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1 hour ago, skyweb1987 said:

The principle of chosen representatives of Allah swt including the prophets imams, caliphs and  leaders is well defined in many verses of quran that rejects man  made caliphate system for  the religion. 

On the same lines with many evidences from verses of  Quran and relevant  hadith the doctrine of 12 imams is well defined in quran, 

wasalam

My point was that there is consensus among all sects that with Ahl al-Bayt and Aale Muhammad the Five were meant. 

 

So if one doubts that loving them and acknowledging their status is islam it is against the creed of all sects actually.

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3 hours ago, just a muslim said:

rationality. but that is because the quran tells us to ponder over the existence of God. many places

Man your going in circles. Quran tells us to ponder over the existence of God, but we have assumed that the person hasn't even established that God exists in the first place so why would he look at the Quran to see whether it tells us to rationalize or not.

That is why in Shia theology (aqaid), first we establish that God exists rationally. It is in our intrinsic nature to ponder over the existence of God. If you don't think so then you have not understood yourself.

3 hours ago, just a muslim said:

we only use our rationale to arrive at the conclusion that God exists and He is One. after that, we submit to whatever that God tells us.

A person who uses a torch to come to a dark room wouldn't throw his torch away once he arrives there - otherwise he will be lost and never will never be guided.

Man this is the exact reason why so many Sunnis are unable to reject the absurdity and contradiction in Sahih Bukhari. This book was written way after the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and now what if your told that so and so hadith is authentic and you automatically assume it is the word of God. If you don't use your rationality then you won't ever be able to tell right from wrong.

For example there are absurd hadiths that Prophet Muhmmad (pbuh) was possessed when he received revelation for the very first time. If we don't use our rationality then we will believe in such absurdity that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was possessed by a jinn.

I disagree with you. If we submit to everything without rationalizing then we will never understand the beauty of what we are told to do. There is nothing wrong in having questions dude. I'd rather someone question why he should pray, then someone pray blindly without understanding the beauty of Salah.

4 hours ago, just a muslim said:

similarly, we should not try to reason something into or out of islam. we determind if it actually is from God. if it is, then we submit. if not, only then we dismiss. 

In that case, we should be beating our wives as per the Quranic verse on wife beating. We use our rationality to come to a conclusion that it has a particular context (ie addressed to a seventh century Arabia). This is the mentality of extremists, I'm sorry to say.

 

4 hours ago, just a muslim said:

example, ibrahim a.s. was asked to sacrifice his child. now, can you honestly tell me that such a command makes sense? it would be rational to dismiss

What is your point in comparing a Prophet of God to us?

This was a test to see if Prophet Ibrahim (as) was able to give what he loved most for the sake of Allah. I believe this story has a lot of messages we can take and it is not there to indicate that we should never rationalize.

Why do you think ISIS or terrorists kill people? Because they take everything as a literal word of God without rationalizing. They see a word of God that "kill the disbelievers" - then they feel that whatever they do (even if it is against human nature and their rationality), they should not question.

4 hours ago, just a muslim said:

sunnis believe all sahaba should be loved

Refer to Quran 33:4. "Allah has not made for anyone two hearts in one body".

I refuse to love sahaba who had hatred for Imam Ali (as).

4 hours ago, just a muslim said:

why should i?

Man, sorry but again you are making yourself look bad. Come on... I can help you if you need to come up with arguments.

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There are only two literal uses of the phrase "Ahlul Bayt" in the Quran.

The first refers to the wife of Ibrahim AS when she Praised Allah for her pregnancy at such old age, where Allah refers to her belonging to a group of Ahlul Bayt.

The second is when the Quran refers to the wives of the Prophet Muhammad SAW specifically for minding their behaviors, appearances, and calls them Ahlul Bayt in the same phrase/ayah.

There's no where else in the Quran where Ahlul Bayt is explicitly referring to a man or anyone else I've mentioned above.

I've taken the liberty to understand  Ahlul Bayt is to mean only wives of Prophets as it is the most intuitive understanding without throwing some preconceived sectarian hadith in the mix.

 @Aisha1998

Edited by wmehar2

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hi in first paragraph prophet Mohammad (pbu) & Lady Fatima (as) &Imam Ali(as) &11 Imams(as) are descendants of Ibrahim (as)  that never by tyrant & ignorant so they can be Imam as Ibrahim (as) asked from Allah it for his descendants .

second in verse 33:33 the adjective & grammar separate Ahlulbayt (as) from Wives of the Prophet Muhammad SAW if it was about them because they live in separate Houses (Buyot) 

it must be said Ahlul Buyot not Ahlul Bayt because Bayt uses  for a specific house not all of houses.

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9 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

I've taken the liberty to understand  Ahlul Bayt is to mean only wives of Prophets as it is the most intuitive understanding without throwing some preconceived sectarian hadith in the mix.

:bismillah:

Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 159:
إِنَّ الَّذِينَ يَكْتُمُونَ مَا أَنزَلْنَا مِنَ الْبَيِّنَاتِ وَالْهُدَىٰ مِن بَعْدِ مَا بَيَّنَّاهُ لِلنَّاسِ فِي الْكِتَابِ أُولَٰئِكَ يَلْعَنُهُمُ اللَّهُ وَيَلْعَنُهُمُ اللَّاعِنُونَ

Surely those who conceal the clear proofs and the guidance that We revealed after We made it clear in the Book for men, these it is whom Allah shall curse, and those who curse shall curse them (too).
(English - Shakir)

 

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22 hours ago, just a muslim said:

1. why should i? should you not first prove imamah to me rationally as you are the one who claims it?

I have certainly provided my evidences from the verses of quran in my posts given again at the link below:

It seems you have not read a single verse of Quran mentioned  at these links, nor you have given a thought on these verses of quran, but you like to continue beating the drum that the immma  does not exist in quran. So I do not care for your assumptions that are baseless and false.

wasalam

Edited by skyweb1987

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12 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

Ahlul Bayt is to mean only wives of Prophets as it is the most intuitive understanding without throwing some preconceived sectarian hadith in the mix.

(1) Allah literally spoke against the wives of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in numerous verses - then what makes you feel they are the purified ones. The people who are in the ranks of purification can never have those words spoken against them.

(2) If you study the grammer of the purification verse, it is altered to include men as well. If Allah really addressed this to the wives of the Prophet - then why is there that alteration?

(3) Using the verse of the wife of Prophet Ibrahim (as) and deducing that "okay therefore it addresses the wives of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) - proves very little.

I think we all need to study what "being purified means", before ever thinking that it refers to the wives of the Prophet(pbuh).

Edited by ali_fatheroforphans

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9 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

hi in first paragraph prophet Mohammad (pbu) & Lady Fatima (as) &Imam Ali(as) &11 Imams(as) are descendants of Ibrahim (as)  that never by tyrant & ignorant so they can be Imam as Ibrahim (as) asked from Allah it for his descendants .

second in verse 33:33 the adjective & grammar separate Ahlulbayt (as) from Wives of the Prophet Muhammad SAW if it was about them because they live in separate Houses (Buyot) 

it must be said Ahlul Buyot not Ahlul Bayt because Bayt uses  for a specific house not all of houses.

Ahl alabayt are the purified individuals (including his daughter Fatima as and 12 imams)  of the family of the prophet saaw. They are only purified individuals  including the Prophet saaww himself. They are never separated from Quran. Look at the following verses of quran for the word "AL-bayat" the same that has been used in the verse of purification.

This word as "Al-bayat" has been used in the following verses:

٢_١٢٥    وَإِذْ جَعَلْنَا ٱلْبَيْتَ مَثَابَةًۭ لِّلنَّاسِ وَأَمْنًۭا وَٱتَّخِذُوا۟ مِن مَّقَامِ إِبْرَٰهِـۧمَ مُصَلًّۭى ۖ وَعَهِدْنَآ إِلَىٰٓ إِبْرَٰهِـۧمَ وَإِسْمَٰعِيلَ أَن طَهِّرَا بَيْتِىَ لِلطَّآئِفِينَ وَٱلْعَٰكِفِينَ وَٱلرُّكَّعِ ٱلسُّجُودِ
٢_١٢٧    وَإِذْ يَرْفَعُ إِبْرَٰهِـۧمُ ٱلْقَوَاعِدَ مِنَ ٱلْبَيْتِ وَإِسْمَٰعِيلُ رَبَّنَا تَقَبَّلْ مِنَّآ ۖ إِنَّكَ أَنتَ ٱلسَّمِيعُ ٱلْعَلِيمُ
٢_١٥٨    ۞ إِنَّ ٱلصَّفَا وَٱلْمَرْوَةَ مِن شَعَآئِرِ ٱللَّهِ ۖ فَمَنْ حَجَّ ٱلْبَيْتَ أَوِ ٱعْتَمَرَ فَلَا جُنَاحَ عَلَيْهِ أَن يَطَّوَّفَ بِهِمَا ۚ وَمَن تَطَوَّعَ خَيْرًۭا فَإِنَّ ٱللَّهَ شَاكِرٌ عَلِيمٌ
٣_٩٧    فِيهِ ءَايَٰتٌۢ بَيِّنَٰتٌۭ مَّقَامُ إِبْرَٰهِيمَ ۖ وَمَن دَخَلَهُۥ كَانَ ءَامِنًۭا ۗ وَلِلَّهِ عَلَى ٱلنَّاسِ حِجُّ ٱلْبَيْتِ مَنِ ٱسْتَطَاعَ إِلَيْهِ سَبِيلًۭا ۚ وَمَن كَفَرَ فَإِنَّ ٱللَّهَ غَنِىٌّ عَنِ ٱلْعَٰلَمِينَ
٥_٢    يَٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوا۟ لَا تُحِلُّوا۟ شَعَٰٓئِرَ ٱللَّهِ وَلَا ٱلشَّهْرَ ٱلْحَرَامَ وَلَا ٱلْهَدْىَ وَلَا ٱلْقَلَٰٓئِدَ وَلَآ ءَآمِّينَ ٱلْبَيْتَ ٱلْحَرَامَ يَبْتَغُونَ فَضْلًۭا مِّن رَّبِّهِمْ وَرِضْوَٰنًۭا ۚ وَإِذَا حَلَلْتُمْ فَٱصْطَادُوا۟ ۚ وَلَا يَجْرِمَنَّكُمْ شَنَـَٔانُ قَوْمٍ أَن صَدُّوكُمْ عَنِ ٱلْمَسْجِدِ ٱلْحَرَامِ أَن تَعْتَدُوا۟ ۘ وَتَعَاوَنُوا۟ عَلَى ٱلْبِرِّ وَٱلتَّقْوَىٰ ۖ وَلَا تَعَاوَنُوا۟ عَلَى ٱلْإِثْمِ وَٱلْعُدْوَٰنِ ۚ وَٱتَّقُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ ۖ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ شَدِيدُ ٱلْعِقَابِ
٥_٩٧    ۞ جَعَلَ ٱللَّهُ ٱلْكَعْبَةَ ٱلْبَيْتَ ٱلْحَرَامَ قِيَٰمًۭا لِّلنَّاسِ وَٱلشَّهْرَ ٱلْحَرَامَ وَٱلْهَدْىَ وَٱلْقَلَٰٓئِدَ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ لِتَعْلَمُوٓا۟ أَنَّ ٱللَّهَ يَعْلَمُ مَا فِى ٱلسَّمَٰوَٰتِ وَمَا فِى ٱلْأَرْضِ وَأَنَّ ٱللَّهَ بِكُلِّ شَىْءٍ عَلِيمٌ
٨_٣٥    وَمَا كَانَ صَلَاتُهُمْ عِندَ ٱلْبَيْتِ إِلَّا مُكَآءًۭ وَتَصْدِيَةًۭ ۚ فَذُوقُوا۟ ٱلْعَذَابَ بِمَا كُنتُمْ تَكْفُرُونَ
١١_٧٣    قَالُوٓا۟ أَتَعْجَبِينَ مِنْ أَمْرِ ٱللَّهِ ۖ رَحْمَتُ ٱللَّهِ وَبَرَكَٰتُهُۥ عَلَيْكُمْ أَهْلَ ٱلْبَيْتِ ۚ إِنَّهُۥ حَمِيدٌۭ مَّجِيدٌۭ
٢٢_٢٦    وَإِذْ بَوَّأْنَا لِإِبْرَٰهِيمَ مَكَانَ ٱلْبَيْتِ أَن لَّا تُشْرِكْ بِى شَيْـًۭٔا وَطَهِّرْ بَيْتِىَ لِلطَّآئِفِينَ وَٱلْقَآئِمِينَ وَٱلرُّكَّعِ ٱلسُّجُودِ
٢٢_٣٣    لَكُمْ فِيهَا مَنَٰفِعُ إِلَىٰٓ أَجَلٍۢ مُّسَمًّۭى ثُمَّ مَحِلُّهَآ إِلَى ٱلْبَيْتِ ٱلْعَتِيقِ
٣٣_٣٣    وَقَرْنَ فِى بُيُوتِكُنَّ وَلَا تَبَرَّجْنَ تَبَرُّجَ ٱلْجَٰهِلِيَّةِ ٱلْأُولَىٰ ۖ وَأَقِمْنَ ٱلصَّلَوٰةَ وَءَاتِينَ ٱلزَّكَوٰةَ وَأَطِعْنَ ٱللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُۥٓ ۚ إِنَّمَا يُرِيدُ ٱللَّهُ لِيُذْهِبَ عَنكُمُ ٱلرِّجْسَ أَهْلَ ٱلْبَيْتِ وَيُطَهِّرَكُمْ تَطْهِيرًۭا
١٠٦_٣    فَلْيَعْبُدُوا۟ رَبَّ هَٰذَا ٱلْبَيْتِ

The word "Albaayt" has been used in exactly 12 verses.This word with other words has been used in following two verses:

٢٢_٢٩    ثُمَّ لْيَقْضُوا۟ تَفَثَهُمْ وَلْيُوفُوا۟ نُذُورَهُمْ وَلْيَطَّوَّفُوا۟ بِٱلْبَيْتِ ٱلْعَتِيقِ
٥٢_٤    وَٱلْبَيْتِ ٱلْمَعْمُورِ

The count is exactly 14. That confirms our stance again. We have evidences and the others have claims and claims alone.

 

Edited by skyweb1987

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17 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

Man your going in circles. Quran tells us to ponder over the existence of God, but we have assumed that the person hasn't even established that God exists in the first place so why would he look at the Quran to see whether it tells us to rationalize or not.

That is why in Shia theology (aqaid), first we establish that God exists rationally. It is in our intrinsic nature to ponder over the existence of God. If you don't think so then you have not understood yourself.

quran or not, we have the ability to realize the existence of God rationally. so one does not have to believe in the quran to realize God rationally. he wouldnt look at the quran. 

i believe the same. it is in our intrinsic nature to accept and crave the existence of God. nobody is challenging that.

17 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

A person who uses a torch to come to a dark room wouldn't throw his torch away once he arrives there - otherwise he will be lost and never will never be guided.

one WOULD throw it away if one is told to do so and listen only to what the dark room says. the quran tells us to reach God through logic and reason. once there, it tells us to submit and obey him and his messenger. it does not tell us to reflect upon things which God might want us to do. it does not tell us to use rationality anymore. instead follow and obey the messenger.

17 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

Man this is the exact reason why so many Sunnis are unable to reject the absurdity and contradiction in Sahih Bukhari. This book was written way after the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and now what if your told that so and so hadith is authentic and you automatically assume it is the word of God. If you don't use your rationality then you won't ever be able to tell right from wrong.

For example there are absurd hadiths that Prophet Muhmmad (pbuh) was possessed when he received revelation for the very first time. If we don't use our rationality then we will believe in such absurdity that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was possessed by a jinn.

it always sort of amuses me when people have this issue with sahih bukhari. that it was written way after the prophet pbuh. was kafi and nahjul balagha also not written after the time periods of the imams and Ali a.s.? then why do you believe in it?

also, like i said, our rationality is limited. so, we can never really be sure when a hadith seems irrational as to whether it actually is irrational or we just cant seem to understand it. 

also, how well do you know shia hadith sciences? i have a feeling not much, judging by the fact that you have an issue with sahih bukhari being written way after the prophet's pbuh life. anyway, if you do know something about this, tell me this. if a sanad is authentic, can the matn be incorrect?

17 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

I disagree with you. If we submit to everything without rationalizing then we will never understand the beauty of what we are told to do. There is nothing wrong in having questions dude. I'd rather someone question why he should pray, then someone pray blindly without understanding the beauty of Salah.

okay. let me get this right first. you look for the wisdom and reason behind everything? if yes, what do you do when you cant come up with a reason for something or the logic behind it? like, why pray 5 times a day? and why maghrib has 3 rakahs, and fajr 2, while the rest have 4? what is the rationality behind it? 

we are at a disagreement here, right? should we turn to the quran as per 4:59? what you are saying here is going against the quran, not me. Allah calls us his servants, ibaad. he tells us to worship him, obey him, obey his messenger. if you look at the arabic, and in fact even without it, you realize that obeying comes without any questions. servants do not question the reason behind their Master's command. they obey. our whole purpose of life is to worship Allah, not to rationalize our worship. Allah tells us to establish salah. he doesnt tell us why. he could have, like he told us for fasting, which is meant to increase taqwa. 

basically, the quran tells us to obey and serve and submit and worship, which in essence does not involve any sort of reasoning. we do that because the Al-Mighty has told us to. as for why he told us to, neither the quran mentions them, generally speaking, nor should we bother ourselves. i am saying only what the quran is saying.

17 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

In that case, we should be beating our wives as per the Quranic verse on wife beating. We use our rationality to come to a conclusion that it has a particular context (ie addressed to a seventh century Arabia). This is the mentality of extremists, I'm sorry to say.

no. we dont use our rationality. we use the quran. and the sunnah. "there has been for you, in the messenger of Allah, an excellent example". so we look to see how he implemented this verse. also, the messenger of Allah was sent to explain the book. when looking at his life, we see he never hit or struck his wives. and he explains this ayah as meaning to strike with a siwak/miswaak. and to not his the face with it. and to not hit it in a way such that it leaves a mark. which basically means that you can hurt the wife, but are allowed to express our anger by simply tapping with a siwak. 

brother, if rationality was enough, Allah would not have sent down a book or messenger. quran is to be referred to for guidance, 2:2. not rationale.

17 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

Why do you think ISIS or terrorists kill people? Because they take everything as a literal word of God without rationalizing. They see a word of God that "kill the disbelievers" - then they feel that whatever they do (even if it is against human nature and their rationality), they should not question.

see. bad example. nobody is asking you to take things literally. take them in the meaning they were meant. and in that sense, using our reason to understand WHAT some thing means, we have to. but not the WHY. like in this case, if the verse says to kill the disbelievers, we need to see what the context and circumstances are. what ISIS do is take things out of context. which is wrong. 

is the ayah about killing the disbelievers going against your rationality? how do you justify it?

17 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

I refuse to love sahaba who had hatred for Imam Ali (as).

we are in agreement here. i refuse to do that too. 

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43 minutes ago, skyweb1987 said:

I have certainly provided my evidences from the verses of quran in my posts given again at the link below:

It seems you have not read a single verse of Quran mentioned  at these links, nor you have given a thought on these verses of quran, but you like to continue beating the drum that he immma  does not exist in quran. So I do not care for your assumptions that are baseless and false.

wasalam

1. i was talking to him.

2. 1 is important because i asked for a proof using rationality. not the quran and ahadith. apparently, it is you who doesnt read things properly.

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1 hour ago, just a muslim said:

1. i was talking to him.

2. 1 is important because i asked for a proof using rationality. not the quran and ahadith. apparently, it is you who doesnt read things properly.

if you were  mentioning some one else then you should have quoted his name not mine instead,  but your last post was quoting me by your  mistake.

wasalam

Edited by skyweb1987

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6 minutes ago, skyweb1987 said:

if you were  mentioning some one else then you should have quoted his name not mine instead,  but your last post was quoting me by your  mistake.

wasalam

I quoted you because you were also mentioning the other guy and you were also talking about rationally proving/disproving imamah. 

And i specifically asked for a rational explanation. 

But anyway. Let's go to the other post. 

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6 minutes ago, just a muslim said:

I quoted you because you were also mentioning the other guy and you were also talking about rationally proving/disproving imamah. 

And i specifically asked for a rational explanation. 

But anyway. Let's go to the other post. 

Were you not who did not like to read and go through the knowledge given in quran by the rational and numerical analysis as presented  (by me) in the other thread for 1 out of 73 sect?

Now you like to get rational basis for immama , strange and contradictory statements  from your side.

waslam 

Edited by skyweb1987

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1 hour ago, skyweb1987 said:

Were you not who did not like to read and go through the knowledge given in quran by the rational and numerical analysis as presented  (by me) in the other thread for 1 out of 73 sect?

Now you like to get rational basis for immama , strange and contradictory statements  from your side.

waslam 

what you did in that thread was numerical. numerical proof and rational proof are 2 different things.

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12 minutes ago, just a muslim said:

what you did in that thread was numerical. numerical proof and rational proof are 2 different things.

The research based on the information as mentioned in hadith are proven by rational and numeric of Quran thus leading to the true path through the 12 imams and 14 infallible. These are undeniable proof for a mindful one. There is no alternate path leading to true way of Allah swt as required by Quran.

wasalam

Edited by skyweb1987

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Holy Quran 6:125
------------------
فَمَن يُرِدِ اللَّهُ أَن يَهْدِيَهُ يَشْرَحْ صَدْرَهُ لِلْإِسْلَامِ ۖ وَمَن يُرِدْ أَن يُضِلَّهُ يَجْعَلْ صَدْرَهُ ضَيِّقًا حَرَجًا كَأَنَّمَا يَصَّعَّدُ فِي السَّمَاءِ ۚ كَذَٰلِكَ يَجْعَلُ اللَّهُ الرِّجْسَ عَلَى الَّذِينَ لَا يُؤْمِنُونَ

So whoever Allah wants to guide - He expands his breast to [contain] Islam; and whoever He wants to misguide - He makes his breast tight and constricted as though he were climbing into the sky. Thus does Allah place defilement upon those who do not believe.

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6 hours ago, just a muslim said:

one does not have to believe in the quran to realize God rationally. he wouldnt look at the quran. 

Bro you're not very set with your views. First you didn't say this at all..Now your agreeing with me mashallah.

6 hours ago, just a muslim said:

was kafi and nahjul balagha also not written after the time periods of the imams and Ali a.s.? then why do you believe in it?

Dude you still haven't understood my point. I do admit kafi was written way aftet Prophet Muhammad (pbub)'s death but we Shias have a general rule to not blindly accept every hadith which contradicts rationality, Quran and Ahlulbayt (as). 

The problem with Sunnis is that they take every word in Sahih Bukhari as Gospel. There are numerous contradictions in it and stuff which anyone with common sense would believe that it is a book with clear fabrications and fairy tales.

You still haven't responded to the ridiculous hadith on Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) being affected by a Jinn. This is the exact reason why we need to critically think and see if such hadiths are is in line with the teachings of Quran. 

6 hours ago, just a muslim said:

yes, what do you do when you cant come up with a reason for something or the logic behind it? like, why pray 5 times a day? and why maghrib has 3 rakahs, and fajr 2, while the rest have 4? what is the rationality behind it? 

Dude, again you bring examples which don't prove your point in anyway. Nice try!

You're basically going into a fiqhi discussion of how many rakats, how to do wudhu, how many times to wash hand etc. These fiqhi issues tell us what to do and how to do.

How in the world does this mean you should not use your rationality?

We need to know the rationality behind Salah in general. Fiqh never teaches us how to pray with sincerity. You need to realize that sincerity comes by having good intentions. To have good intentions you have to use your intellect.

In Islamic ethics (well Shia for sure), two people who pray with the exact same intentions and in the same way - won't have the same outcome. The one who has greater understanding of salah or God in general will be higher in the view of God.

For example you rationalize about fasting in general, NOT about what the specific fiqhi issues associated with it.

6 hours ago, just a muslim said:

Allah tells us to establish salah. he doesnt tell us why. he could have, like he told us for fasting, which is meant to increase taqwa. 

Again I am astonished at your logic subhanallah.

This is the reason why so many people pray like robots without understanding the beauty of salah.

Im done tbh!

6 hours ago, just a muslim said:

no. we dont use our rationality. we use the quran. and the sunnah. "there has been for you, in the messenger of Allah, an excellent example". 

So now your going to the Sunnah to back up what seemed irrational to you. Hadiths like "miswak are not that reliable in the view of many scholars".

So your basically saying "If I couldn't find a clear hadith on wife beating - I would of smashed the hell out of my wife. It is only because I found a miswak hadith, that I need to come to a conclusion that beating my wife is bad".

Sorry I would never marry my sister to anyone of this sort of mentality. Don't you need rationality, i.e to rationalize that your wife will be hurt and emotionally affected if you abuse her. 

Again man, you can't use your rationality to reject Imamah. You still are shying away from your challange. Come on man! Just give it a go :)

I feel you are arguing for the sake of it.

Edited by ali_fatheroforphans

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@just a muslim If we want to prove Imamah from Quran and hadith - we can easily do so by providing numerous references. However you will still probably reject them out of ignorance.

So I'm giving you an easy option of having a rational discussion.

All you need to do is use rationality to reject Imamah. I am happy to become a Sunni right now if you do so. 

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On 12/9/2017 at 11:22 PM, just a muslim said:

because khilafatur rashidah is not an usool e deen. nor a furu e deen. it is not a matter of religion. 

what kind of proof for bukhari and muslim? that they are 100 percent authentic? they are not. the claim of authenticity is only for those narrations which have an unbroken sanad mentioned in the books. and out of those around 5-20 are disputed among the sunnis. most of the common folk is ignorant of this. i myself believe at least 1 incorrect hadith exists in bukhari, which can easily by proven by 2 contradicting ahadith, 1 in bukhari and 1 in muslim. the reason the name hasnt been changed from sahih is because an overwhelmingly large portion of the books is considered authentic(according to sunni hadith sciences) by ALL of the sunni scholars and muhadditheen.

those who say we must follow one of the four are ignorant and going against the quran in so many ways. i personally believe such taqleed to be haram, at least for myself. and if one does not follow the four imams, one does not leave the "folds" of sunnism. 

so we agree that being a Muslim and believing in the caliphate are mutually exclusive.

Just wondering why the Quran did not mention Bukhari and Muslim since there are lot of people who base their faith on the Quran because of Bukhari and Muslim. 

So following an Imam is going against the Quran? Please explain.

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3 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

Bro you're not very set with your views. First you didn't say this at all..Now your agreeing with me mashallah.

i never said we cant use rationale to arrive at the existence of one God. we HAVE to rather. but after that, we listen to what that God says. that is all i am saying. and God, to the best of my knowledge, has not asked me to rationalize things before doing them. 

 

this post have sort of hugely strayed away from the OP. how about this. ill make 3 different threads. 1 for the importance of rationality itself. 2 for the issues you have with sunni ahadith. 3. for the rational and quranic+hadith proof of imamah. so we can properly discuss each of them. sound good? but for number 3, you will first have to explain to me why/how imamah makes sense rationally. and we shall also discuss ahadith which prove imamah. and ahadith in general.

 

but to wrap this up here, would you like to say anything for the OP? it is fine if you dont. 

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3 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

so we agree that being a Muslim and believing in the caliphate are mutually exclusive.

Just wondering why the Quran did not mention Bukhari and Muslim since there are lot of people who base their faith on the Quran because of Bukhari and Muslim. 

So following an Imam is going against the Quran? Please explain.

believing in caliphate as a historical event, yes. believing in a caliph of your time, no. as we have ahadith which ask us to obey the ruler of the time as long as his commands do not go against islam. and please dont bring in imam hussain a.s. and the son of muawiya here. he was not a legit ruler. and whatever he did to the ahlul bayt was awful, to say the least of the least. 

what? who bases their faith on quran because of bukhari and muslim? are you referring to what i said in some other thread about believing in quran because of sunni hadith/rijal? i already explained what i meant there. 

following an imam, and by imam i mean a leader, not someone you believe to be protected and divinely guided, and saying that everything they say is correct and if it seems to be going against the quran/hadith, they must have had a reason to apparently go against them and did not commit mistakes. 

Edited by just a muslim

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