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Aisha1998

Are Ahlul-Bayt mentioned in the Quran?

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The problem with Sunnis is that they are willing to contradict their intellect when it comes to Imamah. 

Lets put the Quran (even tho Imamah is mentioned) and hadith aside for a moment and talk rationally. 

@JustAMuslim I dare you to rationally prove to me why Imamah shouldn't exist?

If you prove this to me logically then I am willing to reject Imamah.

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On ‎07‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 10:12 AM, Aisha1998 said:

If Ahlul-Bayt is such an important aspect within the Shia belief system, where is the doctrine of the 12 Imams in the Quran?

This is a question from pure curiosity, as anyone I ask always presents an unclear answer, and will always need the Hadith to back their answers up rather than the Quran having a straight forward explanation of this doctrine. 

And may I ask for actual answers, no youtube videos or links to other websites. Citations to different recourses in support of your answer is okay and may be useful for me. 

Thank-you

You need to see what Muslims believes.. Start with the concept of Ahlul Bayt, who are the Ahlul Bayt? You will find two ways, one says that all the family members including wives, daughter, son, grandson/grand daughters, uncles etc are the Ahlul Bayt. Second says only five were the Ahlul Bayt in the times of Prophet (pbuh) namely, Prophet Muhammad, Imam Ali, Syeda Fatima, Imam Hassan & Imam Hussain (peace & blessings of Allah be upon them all).

So who are the Ahlul Bayt (asws) in the times of Prophet Muhammad? Have you configured it? You need to use your brain, look into the verses of Quran & traditions/ahadith to get to the fact.

The Word Ahlul Bayt (asws) do exist in Quran in verse 33:33, yet we have two major opinions about them. The main attribute of Ahlul Bayt (asws) is that Allah (s.w.t) has kept the "Rijs" away from them, they are the protected ones, purified ones, truthful ones as per the verses of Quran.

Now analyze whether wives comes under the this category, your "mizan" in the book of Allah. See the verses of Quran whether wives ever lied, or doubted, or deviated from the commands of Allah during their life times and in the times of Prophet. I hope that you come to conclusion that wives cannot be in this category because of two main & weighty reasons:


1. Allah has commanded them to stay in house. There are evidences that at least one of them left the house and lead the whole army to fight against Imam Ali (asws).
2. The Chapter 66, which tells us three main things:
a) two wives lied to Prophet
b) wife was failed to keep the secret of Prophet & she informed that secret to other wife.
c) Allah has commanded them to Repent because of "Saghat Quloobokuma"  (their deviated hearts) 

Likewise, you need to use your brain everywhere. The concept of Imamate has been mentioned in Quran, the twelve imams were named by Prophet himself and 12th of them is Mahdi (ajtf), may my soul be sacrifice on him. The Syedatun Nisa'al Aalameen & Syeda Shababe Ahlul Jannah are Syeda Fatima, Imam Hassan & Imam Hussain (peace & blessings of Allah be upon them) and if you continue to ponder & read the history by being neutral, you will In-sha Allah reach to the 12th Imam of our time. 

The truth is there, you just need the daring to accept it.  

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Holy Quran 25:33
------------------
وَلَا يَأْتُونَكَ بِمَثَلٍ إِلَّا جِئْنَاكَ بِالْحَقِّ وَأَحْسَنَ تَفْسِيرًا

And they do not come to you with an argument except that We bring you the truth and the best explanation.

Holy Quran 25:35
------------------
وَلَقَدْ آتَيْنَا مُوسَى الْكِتَابَ وَجَعَلْنَا مَعَهُ أَخَاهُ هَارُونَ وَزِيرًا

And We had certainly given Moses the Scripture and appointed with him his brother Aaron as an assistant.

Holy Quran 25:44
------------------
أَمْ تَحْسَبُ أَنَّ أَكْثَرَهُمْ يَسْمَعُونَ أَوْ يَعْقِلُونَ ۚ إِنْ هُمْ إِلَّا كَالْأَنْعَامِ ۖ بَلْ هُمْ أَضَلُّ سَبِيلًا

Or do you think that most of them hear or reason? They are not except like livestock. Rather, they are [even] more astray in [their] way.

 

Holy Quran 25:45
------------------
أَلَمْ تَرَ إِلَىٰ رَبِّكَ كَيْفَ مَدَّ الظِّلَّ وَلَوْ شَاءَ لَجَعَلَهُ سَاكِنًا ثُمَّ جَعَلْنَا الشَّمْسَ عَلَيْهِ دَلِيلًا

Have you not considered your Lord - how He extends the shadow, and if He willed, He could have made it stationary? Then We made the sun for it an indication.

Holy Quran 25:63
------------------
وَعِبَادُ الرَّحْمَٰنِ الَّذِينَ يَمْشُونَ عَلَى الْأَرْضِ هَوْنًا وَإِذَا خَاطَبَهُمُ الْجَاهِلُونَ قَالُوا سَلَامًا

And the servants of the Most Merciful are those who walk upon the earth easily, and when the ignorant address them [harshly], they say [words of] peace,

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jabir_ibn_Abd_Allah

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith_of_Fatima_tablet

http://en.wikishia.net/view/Hadith_of_Jabir_b._'Abd_Allah

http://en.wikishia.net/view/Hadith_of_Lawh

Muhammad ibn Yahya and Muhammad ibn 'Abdallah have narrated from 'Abdallah ibn  
Ja'far from al-Hassan ibn Zarif and Ali ibn Muhammad from Salih ibn abu Hammad from  
Bakr ibn Salih from 'Abd al-Rahman ibn Salim from abu Basir from abu 'Abdallah (a.s.) who  
has said the following  

"Once my father said to Jabir ibn 'Abdallah al-Ansari, 'I need your help in certain issue.  
When do you think it will be convenient for you we meet privately and I will ask you about  
it.?" He said, "Whenever you would like will be all right for me." One day when they met  
each other he said, "O Jabir, tell me about the tablet that you saw in the hand of my great-  
grandmother, Fatima (a.s.), daughter of the Messenger of Allah. Tell me of what she said  
toyou about the tablet and the writing on it?"

 

Kitab Al-Kafi Book # 4: The Book about the people who possess Divine Authority

Chapter 125: The Birth of the Possessor (of Divine Authority) (a.s.)

search about tablet

when Sunnis bro& sis read this say it’s no coming in Holy Quran & even accept apart of Jabir Hadiths & don’t accept the others that about Ahlulbayt (as) as their double standard about companions of prophet Mohammad (pbu) he was the first person that pilgrimaged grave of Imam hussain(as) but they don’t follow him as a Shaba specially Wahabists.

 

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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:bismillah:

And now I am going to share the verse in which the concept of 12 Imams is mentioned:

 

إِنَّ عِدَّةَ الشُّهُورِ عِندَ اللّهِ اثْنَا عَشَرَ شَهْرًا فِي كِتَابِ اللّهِ يَوْمَ خَلَقَ السَّمَاوَات وَالأَرْضَ مِنْهَا أَرْبَعَةٌ حُرُمٌ ذَلِكَ الدِّينُ الْقَيِّمُ فَلاَ تَظْلِمُواْ فِيهِنَّ أَنفُسَكُمْ
9:36

This verse is the answer of your question.

Lets now see the translation:

[Shakir 9:36] Surely the number of months with Allah is twelve months in Allah's ordinance since the day when He created the heavens and the earth, of these four being sacred; that is the right reckoning; therefore be not unjust to yourselves regarding them.
[Pickthal 9:36] Lo! the number of the months with Allah is twelve months by Allah's ordinance in the day that He created the heavens and the earth. Four of them are sacred: that is the right religion. So wrong not yourselves in them.
[Yusufali 9:36] The number of months in the sight of Allah is twelve (in a year)- so ordained by Him the day He created the heavens and the earth; of them four are sacred: that is the straight usage. So wrong not yourselves therein,

The phrase in this verse which demand us to ponder is "thalika addeenul qaiyyem".
This blessed verse demand us to ponder what is the relationship between the deenul qaiyyem & the months? Are the word "months" has just literal meanings?
This single verse stores the knowledge to show truth to one who is willing to do tafakkur.


 

 

Edited by Salsabeel

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On 07/12/2017 at 7:34 PM, father said:

Ahl e bait meaning people of the house Surah e mubahila says

'then whoever argues with you about it after knowledge has come to you, say 'come let us call our sons and your sons, our women and your women, our selves and your selves, 

then supplicate earnestly curse of Allah upon the liars among us'

Holy prophet pbuh took with him Hazrat Ali as, Hazrat Fatima as , Hazrat Imam Hassan as and Hazrat Imam Hussain as.

so we know who are the sons, woman and man of the house of Holy Prophet pbuh

May I get the number of the ayah please? thank you 

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On 07/12/2017 at 7:42 PM, Dhulfikar said:

That is already part of religion if you can find from saying of the Prophet Muhammad (saws)

My problem isn't in disbelieving the sayings of the Prophet (PBUH), however, the Hadith was only presented as a way covering specific doings of the Prophet (PBUH) (such as prayer, fasting and so on). I am comparing the importance of the 12 imams. Such emphasis on Ahlul-Bayt but hardly any reference to the Quran. One ayah and a few Hadiths is not enough to cover such a crucial part within the Shia sect. For example with prayer, it is a prescribed duty to pray (Quran 4:103), prayer is also mentioned in the Quran over 700 times. Although the process of prayer isn't mentioned, here we are able to refer to the 98 different Hadiths that provide each aspect of the prayer in reference to the Prophet (PBUH). 

Again ... where is the doctrine that explains "Believe in the Ahlul-Bayt or you are considered a disbeliever" in the Quran? 

I hope that has helped you understand my question a little more, rather than just assuming I'm just Salafi. 

Thank-you

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Quote

 One ayah and a few Hadiths is not enough to cover such a crucial part within the Shia sect. 

Yes it is very enough, minimum 1 mention is enough. If you read our hadiths, you can find so many Quranic verses that are referred to Ahlulbait (as) and so many prophet hadiths about Ahlulbait (as).

Quote

For example with prayer, it is a prescribed duty to pray (Quran 4:103), prayer is also mentioned in the Quran over 700 times. Although the process of prayer isn't mentioned, here we are able to refer to the 98 different Hadiths that provide each aspect of the prayer in reference to the Prophet (PBUH). 

Obeying Prophet and Those who have authority is perceived in Qur'an and in Hadith it describe who they are. Shi'as says Infallible Imams (as) who have given same authority of Prophet over people and Sunnis say your local scholar or army leader like Abu Bakr al Baghdadi for example. Imamate is not a problem concept in Sunnism, but the problem and disagreement is with who are they and the definition itself.

Quote

Again ... where is the doctrine that explains "Believe in the Ahlul-Bayt or you are considered a disbeliever" in the Quran? 

What do you mean by "believe" in Ahlulbait (as)? It is a must of every Muslims to love them and obey them, because their Sunnah is from prophet Muhammad (saws) and remember the verse that says: "Say: I do not ask of you any reward for it but love for my near relatives; ". I have never witnessed a Sunni who says the opposite. Sunnis refer hadiths from Ahlulbait (as) too and they too follow what they say. In Many Sunni hadiths, Prophet said clearly of leaving us Qur'an and Ahlulbait (as), not Qur'an and Sahaba, or Qur'an and Sunnah or Qur'an only.

Here is authentic hadith about Prophet (saws) explaining of Imam Ali (as) being the successor and How He left us Qur'an and Ahlulbait and how Ahlulbait are from descendants  of Imam Ali (as). Of course the hadith is not hujjah upon you, but at least we as Shi'as can say that they are part of Religion.

Quote

"Believe in the Ahlul-Bayt or you are considered a disbeliever"

Rejecting them after admitting that they are the truth will be consider Kafir, otherwise no. Sunnis are not Kafirs.

Quote

I hope that has helped you understand my question a little more, rather than just assuming I'm just Salafi. 

I have no idea who are you, but most salafis say same questions and that's why I said Salafi nonsense, I was not referring to you itself.

Edited by Dhulfikar

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Part 9: Quranic verses proving the following of Ahlul Bayt

https://www.al-islam.org/imamate-and-imams-ayatullah-ibrahim-amini/chapter-2-ahlul-bayt-quran-and-traditions

https://www.al-islam.org/hayat-al-qulub-vol3-allamah-muhammad-baqir-al-majlisi/part-9-quranic-verses-proving-following-ahlul

Quranic verses that prove the necessity of following the path of Ahlul Bayt (a.s.).

Allah Almighty says:

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُوْلِي الْأَمْرِ مِنْكُمْ فَإِنْ تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ إِنْ كُنتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ ذَلِكَ خَيْرٌ وَأَحْسَنُ تَأْوِيلًا.

O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Apostle and those in authority (Ulil Amr) from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Apostle, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end. (Sura Nisa 4:59)

 

http://ahlulbayt.tv/islamic-faqs/

Related imageRelated imageRelated imageRelated imageRelated image  Related image

http://sibtayn.org/en/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2133:forty-seven-sayings-about-imam-ali-a-s-from-prophet-p-b-u-h&catid=263&Itemid=335

1) The Prophet (P.B.U.H) said, “The title of the believer's book is love for Ali (A.S).” Al-Manaqib of Ibn Al-Maghazeli, 243; Tarikh Baghdad of Al-Khatib Al-Baghdadi, 4/410; Al-Jami^ of Al-Sayuti, 2/145; Yanabi^ Al-Mawda.

35) The Prophet (P.B.U.H) said, “Ali (A.S) and his shi^a are the successful ones.” Ibn Al-Maghazeli, 47; Mizan Al-^Itidal, 2/313.

3) The Prophet (P.B.U.H) said, “The carrier of my flag in this life and the Hereafter is Ali (A.S).” Kenz Al-Omal, 6/122; Al-Tabari, 2/201; Al-Khawarizmi, 250; Al-Fadha’il of Ahmad, 253; Ibn Al-Maghazeli, 42/200

http://www.askthesheikh.com/how-can-we-prove-that-god-has-given-the-ahlul-bayt-shafaah-intercession-for-the-shias/

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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2 hours ago, Aisha1998 said:

One ayah and a few Hadiths is not enough to cover such a crucial part within the Shia sect.

:bismillah:

إِنَّ الْأَبْرَارَ يَشْرَبُونَ مِنْ كَأْسٍ كَانَ مِزَاجُهَا كَافُورًا
عَيْنًا يَشْرَبُ بِهَا عِبَادُ اللَّهِ يُفَجِّرُونَهَا تَفْجِيرًا
يُوفُونَ بِالنَّذْرِ وَيَخَافُونَ يَوْمًا كَانَ شَرُّهُ مُسْتَطِيرًا
وَيُطْعِمُونَ الطَّعَامَ عَلَىٰ حُبِّهِ مِسْكِينًا وَيَتِيمًا وَأَسِيرًا
إِنَّمَا نُطْعِمُكُمْ لِوَجْهِ اللَّهِ لَا نُرِيدُ مِنْكُمْ جَزَاءً وَلَا شُكُورًا
إِنَّا نَخَافُ مِنْ رَبِّنَا يَوْمًا عَبُوسًا قَمْطَرِيرًا
فَوَقَاهُمُ اللَّهُ شَرَّ ذَٰلِكَ الْيَوْمِ وَلَقَّاهُمْ نَضْرَةً وَسُرُورًا
 وَجَزَاهُمْ بِمَا صَبَرُوا جَنَّةً وَحَرِيرًا

(76:5-12)
These are Ahlul Bayt (asws), I can quote hundreds of verses. So don't even think that Ahlul Bayt (a.s) and Imamate/wilayah is mentioned in just one verse & couple of ahadith.

 

وَلَنَبْلُوَنَّكُمْ بِشَيْءٍ مِّنَ الْخَوفْ وَالْجُوعِ وَنَقْصٍ مِّنَ الأَمَوَالِ وَالأنفُسِ وَالثَّمَرَاتِ وَبَشِّرِ الصَّابِرِينَ
الَّذِينَ إِذَا أَصَابَتْهُمْ مُصِيبَةٌ قَالُوا إِنَّا لِلَّهِ وَإِنَّا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعُونَ
أُولَٰئِكَ عَلَيْهِمْ صَلَوَاتٌ مِنْ رَبِّهِمْ وَرَحْمَةٌ ۖ وَأُولَٰئِكَ هُمُ الْمُهْتَدُونَ

2:155-157

These are Ahlul Bayt (asws), the Sabireen, the Guided Ones, Allah (s.w.t) has quoted the words of Imam Ali (a.s) in verse # 156

إِنَّمَا وَلِيُّكُمُ اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا الَّذِينَ يُقِيمُونَ الصَّلَاةَ وَيُؤْتُونَ الزَّكَاةَ وَهُمْ رَاكِعُونَ
وَمَنْ يَتَوَلَّ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا فَإِنَّ حِزْبَ اللَّهِ هُمُ الْغَالِبُونَ

5:55-56

These are the Ahlul Bayt (asws), and these verses proves their Wilayah. No one can deny this verse and its message, that's why for denying this divine message, people try to change the meaning of "Wali" in this verse. 

 فَمَنْ حَاجَّكَ فِيهِ مِنْ بَعْدِ مَا جَاءَكَ مِنَ الْعِلْمِ فَقُلْ تَعَالَوْا نَدْعُ أَبْنَاءَنَا وَأَبْنَاءَكُمْ وَنِسَاءَنَا وَنِسَاءَكُمْ وَأَنْفُسَنَا وَأَنْفُسَكُمْ ثُمَّ نَبْتَهِلْ فَنَجْعَلْ لَعْنَتَ اللَّهِ عَلَى الْكَاذِبِينَ
إِنَّ هَٰذَا لَهُوَ الْقَصَصُ الْحَقُّ ۚ وَمَا مِنْ إِلَٰهٍ إِلَّا اللَّهُ ۚ وَإِنَّ اللَّهَ لَهُوَ الْعَزِيزُ الْحَكِيمُ
فَإِنْ تَوَلَّوْا فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ بِالْمُفْسِدِينَ

3:61-63

These are the Ahlul Bayt (asws), the truthful ones, the Sadiqeen.

وَقَرْنَ فِي بُيُوتِكُنَّ وَلَا تَبَرَّجْنَ تَبَرُّجَ الْجَاهِلِيَّةِ الْأُولَىٰ ۖ وَأَقِمْنَ الصَّلَاةَ وَآتِينَ الزَّكَاةَ وَأَطِعْنَ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ ۚ إِنَّمَا يُرِيدُ اللَّهُ لِيُذْهِبَ عَنْكُمُ الرِّجْسَ أَهْلَ الْبَيْتِ وَيُطَهِّرَكُمْ تَطْهِيرًا
3:33

These are the Ahlul Bayt (asws), the purified ones. I can quote even more verses, but hope these are sufficient for your reference along with the verse 4:59. 

Now, do you think Allah has left the selection of leadership on Muslims? So Muslims can appoint/elect anyone their Caliph? Well this idea is in contradiction with Quran itself, let see a verse:
وَرَبُّكَ يَخْلُقُ مَا يَشَاءُ وَيَخْتَارُ ۗ مَا كَانَ لَهُمُ الْخِيَرَةُ ۚ سُبْحَانَ اللَّهِ وَتَعَالَىٰ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ
[Shakir 28:68] And your Lord creates and chooses whom He pleases; to choose is not theirs; glory be to Allah, and exalted be He above what they associate (with Him).

Now what? Are you still in doubt?


يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنْكُمْ ۖ فَإِنْ تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ خَيْرٌ وَأَحْسَنُ تَأْوِيلًا
4:59

Who are these Ulil Amr? Those who are selected by you or those who are the Sabireen, Sadiqeen & Tahireen chosen & selected by Allah?

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11 hours ago, Aisha1998 said:

May I get the number of the ayah please? thank you 

Sura: 3 - aal-`Imraan (The Family of `Imraan) Ayat: 61

فَمَنْ حَاجَّكَ فِيهِ مِنْ بَعْدِ مَا جَاءَكَ مِنَ الْعِلْمِ فَقُلْ تَعَالَوْا نَدْعُ أَبْنَاءَنَا وَأَبْنَاءَكُمْ وَنِسَاءَنَا وَنِسَاءَكُمْ وَأَنْفُسَنَا وَأَنْفُسَكُمْ ثُمَّ نَبْتَهِلْ فَنَجْعَلْ لَعْنَتَ اللَّهِ عَلَى الْكَاذِبِينَ (61

"پیغمبر علم کے آجانے کے بعد جو لوگ تم سے کٹ حجتی کریں ان سے کہہ دیجئے کہ آؤ ہم لوگ اپنے اپنے فرزند, اپنی اپنی عورتوں اور اپنے اپنے نفسوں کو بلائیں اور پھر خدا کی بارگاہ میں دعا کریں اور جھوٹوں پر خدا کی لعنت قرار دیں"

[YOUSAF ALI] If any one disputes in this matter with thee, now after (full) knowledge Hath come to thee, say: "Come! let us gather together,- our sons and your sons, our women and your women, ourselves and yourselves: Then let us earnestly pray, and invoke the curse of Allah on those who lie!"

[ PICKTHAL ] And whoso disputeth with thee concerning him, after the knowledge which hath come unto thee, say (unto him): Come! We will summon our sons and your sons, and our women and your women, and ourselves and yourselves, then we will pray humbly (to our Lord) and (solemnly) invoke the curse of Allah upon those who lie.

[ SHAKIR ] But whoever disputes with you in this matter after what has come to you of knowledge, then say: Come let us call our sons and your sons and our women and your women and our near people and your near people, then let us be earnest in prayer, and pray for the curse of Allah on the liars.

[ REMARKS : Ayat-e-Mubahila. Challenge to the Christians of Najran. Prophet(sawaw) asked to take his Sons, Women and Nafoos with him to the Mubahila ]

You are welcome 

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On 12/7/2017 at 10:12 AM, Aisha1998 said:

If Ahlul-Bayt is such an important aspect within the Shia belief system, where is the doctrine of the 12 Imams in the Quran?

The following two threads presented by myself at SC provide the relevant information:

wasalam

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@Aisha1998

Asalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakattu sister,

All Muslims believe that if one verse of islam makes a point/command, then it is sufficient. For example, if one verse of the quran says lying is haram, and there are over 1,000 hadiths that say lying is halal, we will take the quran's point of view. One verse that is clear to both sunnis and shias which command us to obey the ahlulbayt is surah 4, verse 59. [4:59]: "O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result. "

Also, Ghaidr Khumm is an event that every single school of islam narrates. If the Holy Prophet Muhammad (s) told his 100,000 Muslims to stop in one spot, waited hours and hours for all those who are still behind to arrive, and sent people to get those who went ahead to come back, surely he had something important to do. This is something rational. " O People, do I not have authority over you?" He said. "Yes O messenger of Allah!" they replied. Then he uttered the famous lines, " man kunto maula, fa hatha Ali'un maula", (Whoever I was his master (had authority over), then Ali is his master).

He followed this with a short dua, "O Allah, love whoever loves him, and be an enemy to whoever is his enemy."

If you want the source from sunni books I'd be happy to share, sister just ask.

Also, this is a short video and I know you didn't want links, but it's easier to watch it then just read plain text. Please check out this famous hadith that is widely accepted and is authentic from sunni and shia books, it is narrated by Rasulullah's daughter Fatima (s), and I really recommend you check it out.

If you would like to just read it, check it out here - https://www.duas.org/hadis-e-kisa.htm

Salam

Edited by Hussaini624

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I also forgot to mention a very important part (sorry), in the same speech (Ghadir Khumm), the thaqlayn speech:

Rasulullah (s) famously said, "O People, I leave behind for you two weighty/heavy things (thaqlayn), the Quran and my Ahlulbayt (a) , my Ahlulbayt (a) , my Ahlulbayt (a). Full hadith:

O people, I am a human being. I am about to receive a messenger (the angel of death) from my Lord and I, in response to Allah's call, (would bid good-bye to you), but I am leaving among you two weighty things: the one being the Book of Allah in which there is right guidance and light, so hold fast to the Book of Allah and adhere to it. He exhorted (us) (to hold fast) to the Book of Allah and then said: The second are the members of my household I remind you (of your duties) to the members of my family. He (Husain) said to Zaid: Who are the members of his household? Aren't his wives the members of his family? Thereupon he said: His wives are the members of his family (but here) the members of his family are those for whom acceptance of Zakat is forbidden. And he said: Who are they? Thereupon he said: 'Ali and the offspring of 'Ali, 'Aqil and the offspring of 'Aqil and the offspring of Ja'far and the offspring of 'Abbas. Husain said: These are those for whom the acceptance of Zakat is forbidden. Zaid said: Yes."

 

There is over 100 (atleast, there is many many more) references for Ghadir Khumm in Sunni & Shia books, some being

Sahih Muslim, 031:5920

Sahih Muslim, 031:5923

 

Also, just something to think about, there is an authentic hadith in Sunni books (aswell as us shiites'), called the Twelve Successors hadith. It goes as following,

Imam Muslim on Sahih Muslim wrote: Rasulullah s.a.w said: "This religion (Islam) will remain standing until twelve caliphs, which all of them is from Quraysh, rule over you." (Sahih Muslim)

(another version) Imam Abu Dawud on Shahih Abi Dawud wrote: Masyruq said: We were sitting with Abdullah bin Mas'ud to learn Al-Qur'an from him. Someone asked him: Did you ask Rasulullah s.a.w how many caliphs will rule this ummah? Ibnu Mas'ud answered: Of course we asked this thing from Rasulullah s.a.w and he answered: "Twelve, like the amount of the leaders of Banu Israel." (Sahih Al-Bukhari)

This hadith is also very famous, and is authentic according to Sunni scholars as well. We in the school of Ahlulbayt (a) say what Rasulullah (s) was talking about was his Ahlulbayt (the twelve imams).

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On 12/8/2017 at 2:40 AM, shiaman14 said:

How come we never ask our Sunni brothers to prove Caliphate-e-Rashideen? Or ask for proof about Bukhari and Muslim. And of course, sunnis follow one of four imams, where is the proof?

because khilafatur rashidah is not an usool e deen. nor a furu e deen. it is not a matter of religion. 

what kind of proof for bukhari and muslim? that they are 100 percent authentic? they are not. the claim of authenticity is only for those narrations which have an unbroken sanad mentioned in the books. and out of those around 5-20 are disputed among the sunnis. most of the common folk is ignorant of this. i myself believe at least 1 incorrect hadith exists in bukhari, which can easily by proven by 2 contradicting ahadith, 1 in bukhari and 1 in muslim. the reason the name hasnt been changed from sahih is because an overwhelmingly large portion of the books is considered authentic(according to sunni hadith sciences) by ALL of the sunni scholars and muhadditheen.

those who say we must follow one of the four are ignorant and going against the quran in so many ways. i personally believe such taqleed to be haram, at least for myself. and if one does not follow the four imams, one does not leave the "folds" of sunnism. 

On 12/8/2017 at 3:34 AM, ali_fatheroforphans said:

The problem with Sunnis is that they are willing to contradict their intellect when it comes to Imamah. 

Lets put the Quran (even tho Imamah is mentioned) and hadith aside for a moment and talk rationally. 

@JustAMuslim I dare you to rationally prove to me why Imamah shouldn't exist?

If you prove this to me logically then I am willing to reject Imamah.

so many problems here brother. 

1. if we can prove something rationally, does that make it a part of islam? what if there is no textual evidence for it?

2. if something doesnt make sense rationally, does that mean it cant be a part of islam? what if there IS textual evidence for it?

3. the ayah of ulil amr. the second part of it. if we disagree over something, refer it to Allah and the messenger if you are believers. so, i will either refer to Allah, i.e. the quran, or to the prophet, i.e. sunnah'hadith. not to my or your rationality. and rationality is subjective. a thing mighht seem rational to you while it seems illogical to me, or vice verse.

now, you might say then that you can bring numerous narrations aboout imamah. that is fine. but the issue i have is only 1. how come all others basics of shia islam are EXPLICITLY mentioned in the quran, like believe in Allah, and the messengers. but no such thing for imamah. and then you might say that we are disagreeing here. so let us go to the quran and hadith, not quran alone. and hadith tells us of imamah. i say correct. but the thing is, if you need hadith to prove the basic concept of shi'ism, then is that concept really that basic/important? it may be true, but it cant be from the basic "pillars" of deen. and so, rejecting it wont be as serious as rejecting qiyamah, and wont lead to kufr. and on the off chance that shi'ism is true, i can still die a muslim and hope for forgiveness for not believing in imamah.

On 12/8/2017 at 3:46 AM, Akbar673 said:

If one were to study the lives of the Imams (AS) in even a basic level and then read up a good detailed bio(s) of them then one would then sit and wonder "why AREN'T they mentioned in the Quran ?"

one question. i have two sort of contradictory biographies. which one am i supposed to believe and why?

9 hours ago, Hussaini624 said:

@Aisha1998

Asalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakattu sister,

All Muslims believe that if one verse of islam makes a point/command, then it is sufficient. For example, if one verse of the quran says lying is haram, and there are over 1,000 hadiths that say lying is halal, we will take the quran's point of view. One verse that is clear to both sunnis and shias which command us to obey the ahlulbayt is surah 4, verse 59. [4:59]: "O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result. "

Also, Ghaidr Khumm is an event that every single school of islam narrates. If the Holy Prophet Muhammad (s) told his 100,000 Muslims to stop in one spot, waited hours and hours for all those who are still behind to arrive, and sent people to get those who went ahead to come back, surely he had something important to do. This is something rational. " O People, do I not have authority over you?" He said. "Yes O messenger of Allah!" they replied. Then he uttered the famous lines, " man kunto maula, fa hatha Ali'un maula", (Whoever I was his master (had authority over), then Ali is his master).

He followed this with a short dua, "O Allah, love whoever loves him, and be an enemy to whoever is his enemy."

If you want the source from sunni books I'd be happy to share, sister just ask.

Also, this is a short video and I know you didn't want links, but it's easier to watch it then just read plain text. Please check out this famous hadith that is widely accepted and is authentic from sunni and shia books, it is narrated by Rasulullah's daughter Fatima (s), and I really recommend you check it out.

1. verse of ulil amr. interpretation is different for sunnis and shias. which one to take? what makes shia interpretation correct?

2. ghadir khumm has been narrated. yes. but the context, circumstances and interpretation is different for shias and sunnis. which one to take? 

3. what if i were to present to you a logical explanation for ghadir khumm from the sunni perspective? even for the dua you mentioned.

4. nobody is denying the importance of ahlul bayt, specially the ahle kisa. they were very close to the prophet's pbuh heart. but that is not a daleel for imamah. 

for example. i love my mother. doesnt mean i want her to become president. she doesnt know anything about running a country. but if she were masoom, and divinely guided, then that would be a different story. so, back to the question initial question.

22 minutes ago, Hussaini624 said:

I also forgot to mention a very important part (sorry), in the same speech (Ghadir Khumm), the thaqlayn speech:

Rasulullah (s) famously said, "O People, I leave behind for you two weighty/heavy things (thaqlayn), the Quran and my Ahlulbayt (a) , my Ahlulbayt (a) , my Ahlulbayt (a). Full hadith:

O people, I am a human being. I am about to receive a messenger (the angel of death) from my Lord and I, in response to Allah's call, (would bid good-bye to you), but I am leaving among you two weighty things: the one being the Book of Allah in which there is right guidance and light, so hold fast to the Book of Allah and adhere to it. He exhorted (us) (to hold fast) to the Book of Allah and then said: The second are the members of my household I remind you (of your duties) to the members of my family. He (Husain) said to Zaid: Who are the members of his household? Aren't his wives the members of his family? Thereupon he said: His wives are the members of his family (but here) the members of his family are those for whom acceptance of Zakat is forbidden. And he said: Who are they? Thereupon he said: 'Ali and the offspring of 'Ali, 'Aqil and the offspring of 'Aqil and the offspring of Ja'far and the offspring of 'Abbas. Husain said: These are those for whom the acceptance of Zakat is forbidden. Zaid said: Yes."

 

There is over 100 (atleast, there is many many more) references for Ghadir Khumm in Sunni & Shia books, some being

Sahih Muslim, 031:5920

Sahih Muslim, 031:5923

 

Also, just something to think about, there is an authentic hadith in Sunni books (aswell as us shiites'), called the Twelve Successors hadith. It goes as following,

Imam Muslim on Sahih Muslim wrote: Rasulullah s.a.w said: "This religion (Islam) will remain standing until twelve caliphs, which all of them is from Quraysh, rule over you." (Sahih Muslim)

(another version) Imam Abu Dawud on Shahih Abi Dawud wrote: Masyruq said: We were sitting with Abdullah bin Mas'ud to learn Al-Qur'an from him. Someone asked him: Did you ask Rasulullah s.a.w how many caliphs will rule this ummah? Ibnu Mas'ud answered: Of course we asked this thing from Rasulullah s.a.w and he answered: "Twelve, like the amount of the leaders of Banu Israel." (Sahih Al-Bukhari)

This hadith is also very famous, and is authentic according to Sunni scholars as well. We in the school of Ahlulbayt (a) say what Rasulullah (s) was talking about was his Ahlulbayt (the twelve imams).

good you brought it up. most of the ahadith, at least in sunni literature, dont tell us to hold fast to the quran and ahlul bayt. they tell us to hold fast to the quran alone. and to fear Allah with regards to the ahlul bayt. not to hold fast to the ahlul bayt. you can check the muslim ones you cited. even the quran tells us to hold fast to the rope of Allah, i.e. the quran. so you have no point here.

salam all.

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1 hour ago, just a muslim said:

if something doesnt make sense rationally, does that mean it cant be a part of islam? what if there IS textual evidence for it?

Okay say that there is textual evidence that God exists. Now according to you, we need to believe in that textual evidence (ie Quranic verses that God exists etc) to believe that God exists. But what if a person doesn't believe in God to start with? That person isn't even certain that God exists. So would that person require Quran to prove that God exists or his rationality to come to a conclusion?

The same goes with Christianity. They have textual evidences that trinity exists, but it goes against their rationality. I wonder why Sunnis jump to rationality when they try to reject the idea of trinity. But why don't they use their rationality to reject Imamah.

Rationality is a blessing of Allah and sometimes concepts can go beyond our rationality, but never against it. 

1 hour ago, just a muslim said:

we can prove something rationally, does that make it a part of islam? what if there is no textual evidence for it?

We can all rationally prove that according to Islam slavery should be abolished. There is no Quranic verse on this matter, does that mean that I go ahead and buy slaves in this era?

1 hour ago, just a muslim said:

thing mighht seem rational to you while it seems illogical to me, or vice verca

I do believe Allah has given us a basic level of intellect to come to a rational conclusions. I don't know what subjective matters you're referring to. Yeah, sometimes people might have an immature mind and it might not be properly trained to come to rational conclusions. But does that mean we don't think and use logic?

I know for a fact that all Sunnis find it irrational that they should love Muhawiya and Imam Ali (as) at the same time, but they refuse to go in align with their rationality.

Anyways, I'm waiting for you to rationally reject Imamah! I am willing to become a Sunni then :)

Edited by ali_fatheroforphans

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1 hour ago, just a muslim said:

because khilafatur rashidah is not an usool e deen. nor a furu e deen. it is not a matter of religion. 

what kind of proof for bukhari and muslim? that they are 100 percent authentic? they are not. the claim of authenticity is only for those narrations which have an unbroken sanad mentioned in the books. and out of those around 5-20 are disputed among the sunnis. most of the common folk is ignorant of this. i myself believe at least 1 incorrect hadith exists in bukhari, which can easily by proven by 2 contradicting ahadith, 1 in bukhari and 1 in muslim. the reason the name hasnt been changed from sahih is because an overwhelmingly large portion of the books is considered authentic(according to sunni hadith sciences) by ALL of the sunni scholars and muhadditheen.

those who say we must follow one of the four are ignorant and going against the quran in so many ways. i personally believe such taqleed to be haram, at least for myself. and if one does not follow the four imams, one does not leave the "folds" of sunnism. 

so many problems here brother. 

1. if we can prove something rationally, does that make it a part of islam? what if there is no textual evidence for it?

2. if something doesnt make sense rationally, does that mean it cant be a part of islam? what if there IS textual evidence for it?

3. the ayah of ulil amr. the second part of it. if we disagree over something, refer it to Allah and the messenger if you are believers. so, i will either refer to Allah, i.e. the quran, or to the prophet, i.e. sunnah'hadith. not to my or your rationality. and rationality is subjective. a thing mighht seem rational to you while it seems illogical to me, or vice verse.

now, you might say then that you can bring numerous narrations aboout imamah. that is fine. but the issue i have is only 1. how come all others basics of shia islam are EXPLICITLY mentioned in the quran, like believe in Allah, and the messengers. but no such thing for imamah. and then you might say that we are disagreeing here. so let us go to the quran and hadith, not quran alone. and hadith tells us of imamah. i say correct. but the thing is, if you need hadith to prove the basic concept of shi'ism, then is that concept really that basic/important? it may be true, but it cant be from the basic "pillars" of deen. and so, rejecting it wont be as serious as rejecting qiyamah, and wont lead to kufr. and on the off chance that shi'ism is true, i can still die a muslim and hope for forgiveness for not believing in imamah.

one question. i have two sort of contradictory biographies. which one am i supposed to believe and why?

1. verse of ulil amr. interpretation is different for sunnis and shias. which one to take? what makes shia interpretation correct?

2. ghadir khumm has been narrated. yes. but the context, circumstances and interpretation is different for shias and sunnis. which one to take? 

3. what if i were to present to you a logical explanation for ghadir khumm from the sunni perspective? even for the dua you mentioned.

4. nobody is denying the importance of ahlul bayt, specially the ahle kisa. they were very close to the prophet's pbuh heart. but that is not a daleel for imamah. 

for example. i love my mother. doesnt mean i want her to become president. she doesnt know anything about running a country. but if she were masoom, and divinely guided, then that would be a different story. so, back to the question initial question.

good you brought it up. most of the ahadith, at least in sunni literature, dont tell us to hold fast to the quran and ahlul bayt. they tell us to hold fast to the quran alone. and to fear Allah with regards to the ahlul bayt. not to hold fast to the ahlul bayt. you can check the muslim ones you cited. even the quran tells us to hold fast to the rope of Allah, i.e. the quran. so you have no point here.

salam all.

If you can easily back up all of our points, can you rationally reject imamah as brother @ali_fatheroforphans said? Let's see your knowledge put to the test.

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18 minutes ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

@just a muslim bro, where are you hiding?

You just gave a speech and ran off. It isn't a very difficult challange.

lol not hiding bro. just busy in life. i reply whenever i get the time. it might be late, but will reply inshaAllah

Edited by just a muslim

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On 12/9/2017 at 5:43 AM, Aisha1998 said:

where is the doctrine that explains "Believe in the Ahlul-Bayt or you are considered a disbeliever" in the Quran? 

Shias dont say that. They are not takfiris.

Shias believe in Imams because of divine appointment. Prophet Mohamed saaw was ordered by Allah z to appoint a successor in Ghadir. Sunni hadiths confirm this.. And Imam Ali a.s appointed Imam Hassan, and so on.... 

There is no shura in this.. people dont have the wisdom to appoint the khalifa of muslims. Hence you get abominations like yazid as khalifas

Edited by kirtc

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On ‎7‎-‎12‎-‎2017 at 6:12 AM, Aisha1998 said:

If Ahlul-Bayt is such an important aspect within the Shia belief system, where is the doctrine of the 12 Imams in the Quran?

This is a question from pure curiosity, as anyone I ask always presents an unclear answer, and will always need the Hadith to back their answers up rather than the Quran having a straight forward explanation of this doctrine. 

And may I ask for actual answers, no youtube videos or links to other websites. Citations to different recourses in support of your answer is okay and may be useful for me. 

Thank-you

There is no doctrine of 12 imams in Quran. And if so then it's a matter of interpretation. Possible nut debatable.

What is sure anyway is that the Ahl al-Bayt a.s. (the Five) are mentioned according to all sects. 

To love the Aale Muhammad a.s is an integral part of Islam as no prayer is valid without uttering this in obligatory prayers so look for the anwser in your own sect.

If you do not love them a.s, you do not love Muhammad s.a.w.a.s. and if you do not love Muhammad s.a.w.a.s. you don't love Allah. 

You'r still a muslim then?

Edited by Faruk

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On 12/7/2017 at 10:37 PM, just a muslim said:

checked out the first few paragraphs and will read the rest tomorrow inshaAllah. correct me if i am wrong but it appears to be a rational daleel. is that supposed to mean there are no verses or explicit daleel in the quran like there is for tawheed or messengers? like the verses which tell us to believe in Allah and the messenger, the angels, the day of judgment etc?

Replied earlier as given below :

On 12/7/2017 at 11:44 PM, skyweb1987 said:

٢_١٢٤    ۞ وَإِذِ ٱبْتَلَىٰٓ إِبْرَٰهِـۧمَ رَبُّهُۥ بِكَلِمَٰتٍۢ فَأَتَمَّهُنَّ ۖ قَالَ إِنِّى جَاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِمَامًۭا ۖ قَالَ وَمِن ذُرِّيَّتِى ۖ قَالَ لَا يَنَالُ عَهْدِى ٱلظَّٰلِمِينَ

002:124 When his Lord tested Abraham with certain words and he fulfilled them, He said, ‘I am making you the Imam of mankind.’ Said he, ‘And from among my descendants?’ He said, ‘My pledge does not extend to the unjust.’

_٨٤    قُلْ ءَامَنَّا بِٱللَّهِ وَمَآ أُنزِلَ عَلَيْنَا وَمَآ أُنزِلَ عَلَىٰٓ إِبْرَٰهِيمَ وَإِسْمَٰعِيلَ وَإِسْحَٰقَ وَيَعْقُوبَ وَٱلْأَسْبَاطِ وَمَآ أُوتِىَ مُوسَىٰ وَعِيسَىٰ وَٱلنَّبِيُّونَ مِن رَّبِّهِمْ لَا نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ أَحَدٍۢ مِّنْهُمْ وَنَحْنُ لَهُۥ مُسْلِمُونَ

003:084 Say, ‘We have faith in Allah and in what has been sent down to us, and what was sent down to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, and that which Moses, Jesus and the Prophets were given by their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit.’

If you like to see further the following links provide the detail that shia are the followers of the religion of Ibrahim AS:

 

 

wasalam

These are sufficient evidences to reject your assumptions.

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11 hours ago, just a muslim said:

because khilafatur rashidah is not an usool e deen. nor a furu e deen. it is not a matter of religion. 

The it provides confirmed evidence that man made caliphate has nothing to do with the religion and thus it is rejected from our side.

Thus The principle of appointment of imams/ leaders/ caliphs / prophet s as chosen representatives by Allah swt that is described in many verses of Quran is well proven to be followed by Muslims as follower of the religion.

Does denying a single verse of quran is permissible in sunnis?

Edited by skyweb1987

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53 minutes ago, Faruk said:

There is no doctrine of 12 imams in Quran. And if so then it's a matter of interpretation. Possible nut debatable.

The principle of chosen representatives of Allah swt including the prophets imams, caliphs and  leaders is well defined in many verses of quran that rejects man  made caliphate system for  the religion. 

On the same lines with many evidences from verses of  Quran and relevant  hadith the doctrine of 12 imams is well defined in quran, 

wasalam

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