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sidnaq

How do Christians view the ten commandments?

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They say Jesus is him Himself? But the third one is interesting:

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image.

It dosen't make any sense this means only idols, but could be any shape of Image, even the flesh one. Any creation is Image?

Edited by Dhulfikar

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5 hours ago, sidnaq said:

How do Christians explain the first one?

They tend explain that Jesus is God in the flesh and is in a state of hypostases with the Father and Holy Spirit. In other words, there are three distinct essences or natures in one God. It is really confusing to me, so don't feel bad about being confused too.

4 hours ago, Dhulfikar said:

It dosen't make any sense this means only idols, but could be any shape of Image, even the flesh one. Any creation is Image?

Maybe, look at this: 

Quote

26 Then God said, “Let us make humanity in our image to resemble us so that they may take charge of the fish of the sea, the birds in the sky, the livestock, all the earth, and all the crawling things on earth.”

27 God created humanity in God’s own image,
        in the divine image God created them,[b]
            male and female God created them.

The Bible/Torah seems to support that humanity especially is an Image of God ^

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5 hours ago, Dhulfikar said:

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image.

isn't there "Jesus/god" on the cross in about every  church?

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16 minutes ago, Messam RAza said:

isn't there "Jesus/god" on the cross in about every  church?

In every church. The commands are 3.000 years old, from a time when Israelis still were polytheists and sacrificed animals to Gods on hilltops. In my understandng the idol ban was not a ban on photograps or sculptures, but a ban on worshipping Baal and other semitic Gods. Only the God Jahwe was to be worshipped by the Israelis. 

 

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9 hours ago, Messam RAza said:

isn't there "Jesus/god" on the cross in about every  church?

That's a Catholic thing. Protestant churches have an empty cross. Nobody worships it as a God. It is a symbol, a reminder.

The Israelites were into idols, they made many graven images, including a golden calf, they worshiped as a god. 

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4 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

That's a Catholic thing. Protestant churches have an empty cross. Nobody worships it as a God. It is a symbol, a reminder.

The Israelites were into idols, they made many graven images, including a golden calf, they worshiped as a god. 

Correct. Many churches have a cross without Jesus on it, but every achurch has a cross. In my Church, Swedish protestant, Jesus is hanging crucifided on it. In this church I was taught to pray to God, and I continue doing so.  Other christians, like pentacostals, I believe mainly pray to Jesus. This makes sense if you believe Jesus and God are one and the same. Some Christians pray to Jesus, others to God. I think all(?) Christians accept this. Something Muslims obviously have difficulties understanding. 

The OT is rather reliable when it comes to describing the religion and history of the Israelites during the first milennium BC. Of course, the OT was written during this millennium. 

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14 hours ago, andres said:

Correct. Many churches have a cross without Jesus on it, but every achurch has a cross. In my Church, Swedish protestant, Jesus is hanging crucifided on it. In this church I was taught to pray to God, and I continue doing so.  Other christians, like pentacostals, I believe mainly pray to Jesus. This makes sense if you believe Jesus and God are one and the same. Some Christians pray to Jesus, others to God. I think all(?) Christians accept this. Something Muslims obviously have difficulties understanding. 

The OT is rather reliable when it comes to describing the religion and history of the Israelites during the first milennium BC. Of course, the OT was written during this millennium. 

Well the Orthodox Church which I identify with does images and all that but I think it's ok but I'm quite critical when they start offering stuff to the images and statues of Jesus but if it's just acknowledged as a representation nothing more then it's ok to have them in the Church.

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18 hours ago, andres said:

Correct. Many churches have a cross without Jesus on it, but every achurch has a cross. In my Church, Swedish protestant, Jesus is hanging crucifided on it. In this church I was taught to pray to God, and I continue doing so.  Other christians, like pentacostals, I believe mainly pray to Jesus. This makes sense if you believe Jesus and God are one and the same. Some Christians pray to Jesus, others to God. I think all(?) Christians accept this. Something Muslims obviously have difficulties understanding. 

The OT is rather reliable when it comes to describing the religion and history of the Israelites during the first milennium BC. Of course, the OT was written during this millennium. 

My experience with Pentecostals is Jesus is everything. The Bible says He's "worthy to be praised". There are records of people falling down and worshiping Him, but people are always doing misled things. Jesus never said "worship me", but they do anyway. 

They also pray to Jesus which is not Biblical. Jesus said, "Anything you ask in my name..." meaning you should ask of God, with the promise of Jesus as mediator. Jesus never said "Pray to me.". 

It seems every religious group needs something others don't have in an attempt to be the closest to God...Even if it's not accurate.

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4 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

My experience with Pentecostals is Jesus is everything. The Bible says He's "worthy to be praised". There are records of people falling down and worshiping Him, but people are always doing misled things. Jesus never said "worship me", but they do anyway. 

They also pray to Jesus which is not Biblical. Jesus said, "Anything you ask in my name..." meaning you should ask of God, with the promise of Jesus as mediator. Jesus never said "Pray to me.". 

It seems every religious group needs something others don't have in an attempt to be the closest to God...Even if it's not accurate.

I agree. 

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17 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

Jesus never said "Pray to me." 

If one turns to Jesus for a favor, I don't see how or why God should resent it.

You see, SoP, asking someone for a favor does not mean that you worship him.

Asking someone for something just means that you consider him capable of fulfilling your wish.

That is all.

It does not mean you necessarily equate him to God.

So personally I would have no problem if a Christian (or even a Muslim) asks Jesus for something.

Asking Jesus for something is no different to asking your boss to give you a salary raise or a promotion.

Why do you ask your boss?

Why don't you just ask God for a promotion and leave it at that?

You ask your boss because you know that your boss will be able to fulfill your wish.

Similarly, if you believe that Jesus, because of his close relationship to God, will be able to fulfill your wish, I find no problem your asking Jesus for a favor.

Asking for something is not the same as worshiping.

I hope you understand what I am trying to say.

A lot of people make a lot of fuss on this topic.

But to me it is perfectly OK. 

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22 hours ago, baqar said:

Asking for something is not the same as worshiping.

This is what Catholics do when they ask Virgin Mary or other Saints to help them with their wishes.

When it comes to Jesus, he is worshipped as a God by Christians that believe Jesus and God is one and the same. Even if the trinity doctrine is official within Catholics and Protestants, I think we are many that do not regard Jesus and God as the same "person". I dont. I pray to God.

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12 hours ago, andres said:

I pray to God.

Fine, you can pray to God.

I do too. 

But a part of prayer is "asking for help" or "asking for something".

And there is no logical reason why that part should be exclusive to God.

There is probably no one in the whole wide world, who can claim to have never asked someone for something.

So if we can ask ordinary people in our lives, there is absolutely no reason why we cannot ask Jesus or Moses or Mohammad or Krishna or whoever.

I can even ask you for help if I know that there is something you can help me with.

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On 2017-11-24 at 1:54 PM, baqar said:

Asking for something is not the same as worshiping.

I agree. 

Now, according to Trinity, Jesus and God are the same, so if you worship Jesus you worship God, and if you worship God you worship Jesus. I have not heard of Christians that worship the Spirit, but they may also exist.

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19 hours ago, andres said:

I agree. 

Now, according to Trinity, Jesus and God are the same, so if you worship Jesus you worship God, and if you worship God you worship Jesus. I have not heard of Christians that worship the Spirit, but they may also exist.

Every time I read when someone say Jesus and God are same I have this feeling that people could take it too far. Jesus said: "The Father who dwells in me is doing his works."  John 14:7-10  Is like the saying of Qur'an about Prophets: "An honorable slaves do not speak before Him and they act by His command." Surat al-Anbiya 26-27 and about Prophet Muhammad "Nor does he speak from [his own] inclination."

There are two groups, one who think it means God is inside the person to do God acts thus it means he must be God in human flesh, or A person who only do what God have commanded him to say and do but is different from God, like Moses or Ibrahim in Old Testament and Muhammad in Qur'an. 

 

Edited by Dhulfikar

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8 hours ago, Dhulfikar said:

Every time I read when someone say Jesus and God are same I have this feeling that people could take it too far. Jesus said: "The Father who dwells in me is doing his works."  John 14:7-10  Is like the saying of Qur'an about Prophets: "An honorable slaves do not speak before Him and they act by His command." Surat al-Anbiya 26-27 and about Prophet Muhammad "Nor does he speak from [his own] inclination."

There are two groups, one who think it means God is inside the person to do God acts thus it means he must be God in human flesh, or A person who only do what God have commanded him to say and do but is different from God, like Moses or Ibrahim in Old Testament and Muhammad in Qur'an. 

 

As I read the Bible, God and Jesus are not the same. Not all Christians have been or are trinitarians. The Bible is not a perfect instruction book that can be interpreted in one way only. As also history has shown. In 1054 the Church split into Catholic and Orthodox over how to define Trinity. 

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On 11/25/2017 at 4:55 PM, baqar said:

Fine, you can pray to God.

I do too. 

But a part of prayer is "asking for help" or "asking for something".

And there is no logical reason why that part should be exclusive to God.

There is probably no one in the whole wide world, who can claim to have never asked someone for something.

So if we can ask ordinary people in our lives, there is absolutely no reason why we cannot ask Jesus or Moses or Mohammad or Krishna or whoever.

I can even ask you for help if I know that there is something you can help me with.

Thus far I have come to understand that a dead man is a dead man, the spirit carries the soul to the designated place God intends. Be it heaven, or hell, or a resting place, there are some rule breakers, as in Elijah, Elisha, and Jesus, but short of these three I know of, none can hear your request.

There is no Biblical reference I know of where anyone prayed to anyone other than God, pagans don't count. 

Jesus said, if we pray and ask, "in His name," He will do it, but the prayer is to God. Not sure how it all works, but because Jesus is one of the three, we can assume He is present for our requests. Even Jesus did not say "Pray to me", so I feel my prayers must be exclusively to God. Most of my requests are for understanding. God's will be done, I'd just really like to know why.

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18 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

Thus far I have come to understand that a dead man is a dead man, the spirit carries the soul to the designated place God intends.

You are right but in our view, only partly.

Worship is indeed exclusively for God but prayer is not. 

In your view, only Elisha, Elija and Jesus are alive.

That is fine. However, in our view, there are others as well.  

Verse 2:154 of the Quran says

"And say not of those killed in God's way that they are dead. Indeed, they are living, but you are not aware."

Asking a favor of someone who is seemingly not in this world, but can deliver, is not the same as worshiping someone.

As I told Andres, it is no different from asking your boss for a promotion or for a raise in salary. 

Your boss is living but so are many others invisible to the naked eye. 

Edited by baqar

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3 hours ago, baqar said:

Asking a favor of someone who is seemingly not in this world, but can deliver, is not the same as worshiping someone.

Is asking a favour not what Catholics do when trying to contact Virgin Mary? I know the Quran suspects they in fact worship her, but I would be happy if we could agree that Catholics do not.  

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Andres, I find no problem with Catholics or non-Catholics invoking Jesus' mother, as long as they do NOT regard her as part of God, as some (or many) Christians regard Jesus. 

I believe the Quran is not talking about Catholics but about some Christian group that regarded both Jesus and his mother as God.

That group may have since died out as many others have.

Edited by baqar

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3 hours ago, baqar said:

Andres, I find no problem with Catholics or non-Catholics invoking Jesus' mother, as long as they do NOT regard her as part of God, as some (or many) Christians regard Jesus. 

I believe the Quran is not talking about Catholics but about some Christian group that regarded both Jesus and his mother as God.

That group may have since died out as many others have.

I find it highly unlikely that God on Judgement day would ask Jesus if he had told a small group of people (in a region he never visited) to worshiped his mother as a God. 

But if you are right. Does this not mean that the Quran actually accepts the traditional Catholic usage of Saints? 

 

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5 minutes ago, andres said:

I find it highly unlikely that God on Judgement day would ask Jesus if he had told a small group of people (in a region he never visited) to worshiped his mother as a God. 

But if you are right. Does this not mean that the Quran actually accepts the traditional Catholic usage of Saints? 

 

That's nonsense. Catholics do indeed worship Mary as per Islamic definitions of worship - as proven by brother @Haydar Husayn. And it's deeper than just their praying to her, it's also the attributes they give to her. 

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And they serve beside Allah what can neither harm them nor profit them, and they say: These are our intercessors with Allah. Say: Do you (presume to) inform Allah of what He knows not in the heavens and the earth? Glory be to Him, and supremely exalted is He above what they set up (with Him). [Qur'an 10:18, Shakir translation]

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3 hours ago, Sumerian said:

That's nonsense. Catholics do indeed worship Mary as per Islamic definitions of worship - as proven by brother @Haydar Husayn. And it's deeper than just their praying to her, it's also the attributes they give to her. 

And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, 'Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah'?"

So in your opinion the Quran here speaks about Catholics worshipping tree Gods;  Mary Jesus and God, and not an unknown sect in Medina or Mekka?

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