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بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

As we stated earlier, before we can answer the question “how can I know that God exists?” we must first ask the question “how do I know anything at all.” There are multiple ways that the intellect comes to know, and these modalities (or ways) of knowing are arranged hierarchically. I will go from the lowest form of knowledge to the highest – though this may seem unintuitive to the modern mind, which has been conditioned to see certainty as ordered in precisely the opposite direction. I will sort out these modern confusions as we proceed upon each level, inshaAllah.

The lowest form of knowing, and the least certain is that of sense perception. “Huh? But I thought you had to see it to believe it?” you may ask.

Ah, but you see sense perception deceives us all the time. We readily admit that. Sometimes we see things that aren’t really there, and sometimes what we see does not reflect reality. For instance, we perceive the earth as being flat, the sun as setting upon the horizon, the stars as being small, and if I were to put my finger in a glass of water it would appear to break due to the refraction of light.

refraction.jpg

Your eyes deceive you

Take a look at this clip around 12:30 where Dawkins himself says that if he were to see a direct sign of God – the heavens opening up and seeing the angels – he would still disbelieve in God. Instead, he would find it more probable that he were hallucinating, that David Blaine or some magician were playing a trick on him, or that aliens with some advanced technology could manipulate reality to make him think he were seeing what he were seeing.

You can hear his own words here....

This article was originally published on themuslimtheist.com. Click here to continue reading.

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Its one opinion.

For me the symmetry of universe is not explained as accidental. Some verses in Quran and the symmetry are enough proof that there is omnipotent. 

Lemme give you and example, there is no mathematical proof of gravitational force's existence but almost every thing in modern science is based on it and explains a lot of stuff so it is accepted as it is. Theory of relativity is accepted as is because it explained a lot on space phenomenons and some ideas like string theory are highly regarded for the same reason that it explains a lot of what happening out there. While on the same time these theories have not been proved till now but still accepted by majority. 

Why can't we say same for existence of God? We can't prove His existence  but a lot of thing explains perfectly if we admit there is presence of an Omnipotent. 

Or may be just contradicting orthodox ideas just for the sake of it is the new "kewl".

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34 minutes ago, Messam RAza said:

Its one opinion.

For me the symmetry of universe is not explained as accidental. Some verses in Quran and the symmetry are enough proof that there is omnipotent. 

3

If sense perception is combined with either reasoning or intellectual intuition (which you can think of as the fitrah for now) then yes it can lead to such realizations. But sense perception alone - devoid of these higher faculties, is the definition of dunyawi. It is the level at which the mushrikeen see reality, so obviously it is not sufficient to bring belief. Belief requires sense perception along with thought and/or the awakening of the higher intellect.

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5 hours ago, Ayuoobi said:

Ah, but you see sense perception deceives us all the time.

One wonders why people look right and left before crossing the road?

You are of course partly right and simply put:

Observation alone is inconclusive because it will just witness an apple falling to the ground but not “reason” the force of gravity causing the fall.

Reason alone is not sufficient because people have often “reasoned” the incorrect conclusion. (Flat earth and at the centre of the universe) 

But as far as I know, Science is not mere Observation, it operates by using evidence and reason.


So, I do not understand what your problem is, what is your conclusion? ... or must one read your link ? (not everyone has time to read blogs)    

wslm

*

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So now we will have to define sense and perception.

Sense is ability to think and perception is ability to understand. And when you understand and think obviously you will deduce somethings.

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33 minutes ago, Quisant said:

Science is not mere Observation, it operates by using evidence and reason.

Out of curiosity - what would you personally require to know that God exits? I mean, do you wanna see a big white fluff of cotton to know God exists or something like that?

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1 hour ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

Out of curiosity - what would you personally require to know that God exits? I mean, do you wanna see a big white fluff of cotton to know God exists or something like that?

 

A bush that burns and is not consumed.
Reliable and detailed predictions about next year lottery results.
A heavier-than-air object which remains suspended indefinitely above the ground.
An amputee's arm regrowing.
The Milky Way occasionally changing shape to spell the name of God in the sky.
Etc..etc..

Out of curiosity,

What would it take for you to disbelieve in God? 

*
 

 

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22 minutes ago, Quisant said:

A bush that burns and is not consumed.

If you mean about Moses speaking to God (which I probably think this was the story, though never knew the bush was not consumed), then it was a miracle.

A miracle is : An extraordinary and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore attributed to a divine agency.

22 minutes ago, Quisant said:

Reliable and detailed predictions about next year lottery results.

That is what we call "Tawaqqu' al-mustaqbal" predicting the future, and it is haram/Forbidden to do, and the nice thing is they mostly don't work, unless it was a "wild" guess, as some call it.

Though the Prophet (sawa) once predicted future events more than 1 time, and all of them came true, you interested?

22 minutes ago, Quisant said:

A heavier-than-air object which remains suspended indefinitely above the ground.

Again, if the "angels"(which I think you mean) were to appear they wouldn't appear from their own will, God wants them to appear. Again, God is: the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being.

So God can basically break the laws, which he himself created, when he wants, as they don't apply to him.

 

Though angels in Islam aren't the winged angels, they are some sort of "Spirits" of  unknown nature. The word "Mala'ika" means the "heavenly" ones, or the ones who always obey. So again not the winges creatures like the Christian/Jewish thoughts.

Though they could possibly lift themselves through the means/ways of aerodynamics. Only God knows.

22 minutes ago, Quisant said:

An amputee's arm regrowing.

 

This one happened, I think it was by Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib (a), he basically puts the amputated part, on the other, and joins them together. 

22 minutes ago, Quisant said:

The Milky Way occasionally changing shape to spell the name of God in the sky.

I have seen the name "Allah" once through a cloud, not sure if it is going to help though.

22 minutes ago, Quisant said:

What would it take for you to disbelieve in God? 

Well, it is pretty hard to do so. 

Edited by M.IB

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41 minutes ago, Quisant said:

Out of curiosity,

What would it take for you to disbelieve in God? 

*

Because your god(self/mind) keeps reminding you of its limits. It keeps you in search of "there is no god, but The God".

 

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28 minutes ago, M.IB said:

If you mean about Moses speaking to God (which I probably think this was the story, though never knew the bush was not consumed), then it was a miracle. Etc..etc..

Thanks for your response, ali_fatheroforphans asked me what would I personally want to see to believe, what other people say or heard is not really 'personally'...I hope you see the difference. 

Perhaps the moon is made of Cheese. Perhaps unicorns burp rainbows. Perhaps most people actually have something useful to say. But until they demonstrate any of these things, I feel justified in rejecting them.

It doesn't matter what anyone believes. What matters is what they can demonstrate.

wslm

*

 

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53 minutes ago, Quisant said:

It doesn't matter what anyone believes. What matters is what they can demonstrate.

First of all, this entitlement mentality is not going to help you. I am entitled to an explanation. Second, No one owes you and explanation. Its your life, you figure it out. You and I have the same capabilities, by saying prove it to me, You are inherently acknowledging your inferiority/limits. That alone is sufficient for you to stop and reflect. We can point you to stuff, but its you who will make the final decision.  You have limits, you did not create yourself or whats around you, so something/someone did. Since you are a creation, as everything around you and you yourself(physical systems are guided), you must receive guidance. Find that guidance...

ذَٰلِكَ الْكِتَابُ لَا رَيْبَ ۛ فِيهِ ۛ هُدًى لِلْمُتَّقِينَ {2}

[Shakir 2:2] This Book, there is no doubt in it, is a guide to those who guard (against evil).
[Pickthal 2:2] This is the Scripture whereof there is no doubt, a guidance unto those who ward off (evil).
[Yusufali 2:2] This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah;

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25 minutes ago, S.M.H.A. said:

First of all, this entitlement mentality is not going to help you. I am entitled to an explanation. Second, No one owes you and explanation. Its your life, you figure it out.

As you say it is my life, I am sorting it out. I don't have an entitlement mentality, you are making things up to knock them down so that you appear to be clever...your usual 'straw-man argument. I was responding to someone else, not you.

If you tell me that this morning you have drank a cup of coffee, I have no problem believing you; but if you were to tell me that you have drank a cup of Ambrosia brought to you by Angels  I would want evidence before I believed you.

*
 

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1 hour ago, Quisant said:

As you say it is my life, I am sorting it out. I don't have an entitlement mentality, you are making things up to knock them down so that you appear to be clever...your usual 'straw-man argument. I was responding to someone else, not you.

If you tell me that this morning you have drank a cup of coffee, I have no problem believing you; but if you were to tell me that you have drank a cup of Ambrosia brought to you by Angels  I would want evidence before I believed you.

*
 

Ok, Fine,'

"You" and "I" used in general sense, between two people. I will use myself as a example. If I were to ask someone, i acknowledge that in do not know, i have limits and i am inferior to that person" Don;t read it literal. Point is the fact that I asked a person who as the same capabilities as me. - Indicates in this context here, in this thread is that I am no the  god.I have limits. that person is also limited, we both have limits. We cant be unlimited. if we have limits, there is one without limits.  ( we ask a lot of thing to other people to explain or learn form in life) but in this context that you claim to be not a believer in god. Your acknowledgement is its self a proof on you. 

I could  say you are been clever here 

Quote

What would it take for you to disbelieve in God? 

what does this mean, anyway. 

if i were to point out something else in you last comment, you will say i am been clever. I want to show you what you are really saying. Not trying to show superiority or been clever, just an observation that needs to be pointed to you

Quote

I am sorting it out.

You do acknowledge your limits, this is what you are arguing against. You are asking us to proof, something to you, that you already acknowledge. If you were god, you would not  need to sort it out. Your acknowledging your limits, your search is indicative of something. What that is for you to find out, but one thing is  for sure it is above and beyond you

Start are new thread, stick to it, ask all the question, and learn and teach - find someone who has knowledge here. ( Not me, i am a layman) instead of popping up here and there with the riddles and questions. we are not experts, so you may not get the correct answers. we are laypeople. Find someone who knows and do not  leave that thread till you have asked all the question.  

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21 hours ago, Quisant said:


So, I do not understand what your problem is, what is your conclusion? ... or must one read your link ? (not everyone has time to read blogs)    

 

1

If you want to know what the conclusion of an article is, as well as the arguments, then generally yes you have to read it. Otherwise, I will summarize here, then you'll reply with something I already considered in the article, and it will take a very long and frustrating thread to get the point across.

If you have the time to post several comments on this thread, then you have the time to read it. It takes less than a fifth of the time to read than it does to write.

As for science, part 3 deals with that.

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2 hours ago, Ayuoobi said:

If you want to know what the conclusion of an article is, as well as the arguments, then generally yes you have to read it. Otherwise, I will summarize here, then you'll reply with something I already considered in the article, and it will take a very long and frustrating thread to get the point across.

If you have the time to post several comments on this thread, then you have the time to read it. It takes less than a fifth of the time to read than it does to write.

As for science, part 3 deals with that.

There are, on the web, thousands of articles dealing with the existence of God, some of them argue against and some of them argue for.

What is certain is that a divine entity has never been proven or disproven.

I prefer a discussion (hence my being in a Forum) to reading articles and blogs... but fair enough I understand the point you are making.

Some other time maybe.

All the best.

*   

 

Edited by Quisant

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On 11/21/2017 at 1:01 AM, Ayuoobi said:

 

 

Ah, but you see sense perception deceives us all the time. We readily admit that. Sometimes we see things that aren’t really there, and sometimes what we see does not reflect reality. For instance, we perceive the earth as being flat, the sun as setting upon the horizon, the stars as being small, and if I were to put my finger in a glass of water it would appear to break due to the refraction of light.

 

But it is also the senses that  allowed us to determine that the earth is round, that the sun rotates around the earth, and that light refracts through various objects.

Your position is self defeating.

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22 hours ago, M.IB said:

If you mean about Moses speaking to God (which I probably think this was the story, though never knew the bush was not consumed), then it was a miracle.

A miracle is : An extraordinary and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore attributed to a divine agency.

That is what we call "Tawaqqu' al-mustaqbal" predicting the future, and it is haram/Forbidden to do, and the nice thing is they mostly don't work, unless it was a "wild" guess, as some call it.

Though the Prophet (sawa) once predicted future events more than 1 time, and all of them came true, you interested?

Again, if the "angels"(which I think you mean) were to appear they wouldn't appear from their own will, God wants them to appear. Again, God is: the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being.

So God can basically break the laws, which he himself created, when he wants, as they don't apply to him.

 

Though angels in Islam aren't the winged angels, they are some sort of "Spirits" of  unknown nature. The word "Mala'ika" means the "heavenly" ones, or the ones who always obey. So again not the winges creatures like the Christian/Jewish thoughts.

Though they could possibly lift themselves through the means/ways of aerodynamics. Only God knows.

 

This one happened, I think it was by Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib (a), he basically puts the amputated part, on the other, and joins them together. 

I have seen the name "Allah" once through a cloud, not sure if it is going to help though.

Well, it is pretty hard to do so. 

None of these have been captures by our own senses.

It is convenient for people to say...well it was a miracle that happened in the past, and there is no way i can demonstrate it.....but it happened! But there is just no way for me to confirm that...

 

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“Have you ever dreamt” I asked, “that you are laughing or weeping bitterly, traveling in known or unknown countries, recognizing those countries you had seen or known?”

“Yes” he replied, “I had had many such dreams”.

“Have you ever”, I asked, “seen in your dreams relatives parent or brothers that had died long ago, and identified them as you did in the life time”

“Why not” he exclaimed “I have experienced many such dreams.”

“Well then”, said I, “which of your senses felt the dead man and pointed him out to the mind that it could recognize him and converse with him Which sense relished the food, recognized the countries known or unknown, through which it traveled? Which sense wept and laughed?”

“I am confounded” he said, “I cannot reply, which of my sense (in this sleeping state) did the above things. In fact when one is asleep, he is like one dead, and in that condition, it is quite impossible for the senses to feel, know, see or hear anything.”

“Tell me”, asked I, “when startled, you woke from your sleep. Did you not recollect your dream sufficiently to narrate to your relations and friends, forgetting nothing?”

“Yes”, he replied. “Sometimes I have seen a thing in a dream and the same thing again in a waking state.”

“Alright”, said I, “which of the senses imbued you with the memory of what you saw when those senses were asleep?”

“None of the senses”, said he “seem to have had any hand therein.”

“Can you not see now” said I, “that it is the mind that sees all these things, remembering (in a dreaming state) when all the senses have ceased working?

Don't you know that the mind has been endowed with reason, by means of which Allah establishes His Hujjat?”

“What I see in a dream” said he, “is unsubstantial like a Surab' (mirage), which from a distance appears to be real water, but on approach is discovered to be only sand.”

“How do you make comparison, when in your dream you relish different tastes?” I queried.

“Because”, he replied, “when I approached that ‘Surab', I discovered only sand, and when I awoke I discovered nothing of that which I had seen in dream.”

“Well” asked I, “if I give you an example of what you may have enjoyed in a dream, and which may have made you uneasy, will you believe in the reality of dreams?”

“Yes, why not?” He replied.

“Tell me”, said I, “have you ever in a dream lived with a woman familiar or unfamiliar?”

“Many times”, said he.

“Did you not feel then”, asked I, “exactly the same sensation derived from the satisfaction of carnal appetite in the waking state, and were not the traces left the same?”

“This refutes the argument regarding the 'Surab'. Because the latter is quite unreal-when one approach, it fades away. But here the case is quite contrary. The action in the dream leaves behind traces to prove the reality of sensation.”

https://www.al-islam.org/tradition-myrobalan-fruit-hadith-al-halila-imam-jafar-al-sadiq/hadith

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What is certain is that a divine entity has never been proven or disproven.

"But stars and galaxies do not tell the whole story. Astronomical and physical calculations suggest that the visible universe is only a tiny amount (4%) of what the universe is actually made of. A very large fraction of the universe, in fact 26%, is made of an unknown type of matter called "dark matter". Unlike stars and galaxies, dark matter does not emit any light or electromagnetic radiation of any kind, so that we can detect it only through its gravitational effects. 

An even more mysterious form of energy called “dark energy” accounts for about 70% of the mass-energy content of the universe. Even less is known about it than dark matter. This idea stems from the observation that all galaxies seems to be receding from each other at an accelerating pace, implying that some invisible extra energy is at work"

https://home.cern/about/physics/early-universe

*****

https://mars.nasa.gov/mer/home/

Imagine this ting, tries to figure out its maker, through its senses? will it ever understand our reality?

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43 minutes ago, iCambrian said:

None of these have been captures by our own senses.

It is convenient for people to say...well it was a miracle that happened in the past, and there is no way i can demonstrate it.....but it happened! But there is just no way for me to confirm that...

 

Terminology can be very confusing and effective. 

Miracle a concept of something that can't be fully  explained / who can be described 

like

Quote

Though the Big Bang theory cannot describe what the conditions were at the very beginning of the universe, it can help physicists describe the earliest moments after the start of the expansion.

https://home.cern/about/physics/early-universe

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In the allegory, Plato likens people untutored in the Theory of Forms to prisoners chained in a cave, unable to turn their heads. All they can see is the wall of the cave. Behind them burns a fire.  Between the fire and the prisoners there is a parapet, along which puppeteers can walk. The puppeteers, who are behind the prisoners, hold up puppets that cast shadows on the wall of the cave. The prisoners are unable to see these puppets, the real objects, that pass behind them. What the prisoners see and hear are shadows and echoes cast by objects that they do not see....

....Plato’s point: the general terms of our language are not “names” of the physical objects that we can see. They are actually names of things that we cannot see, things that we can only grasp with the mind.

The Allegory of the Cave

https://faculty.washington.edu/smcohen/320/cave.htm

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6 hours ago, iCambrian said:

I'd recommend you read Carl Sagans Demon Haunted World.

FYI,

I have mentioned this before, even as a layman. We do understand basic logic...and can connect the dots . What is obvious us is that they deny the judeo-christian description of god. 

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235052378-the-delusions-of-atheists/

Here is about Carls views on 

Quote

Sagan wrote frequently about religion and the relationship between religion and science, expressing his skepticism about the conventional conceptualization of God as a sapient being. For example:

Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Others—for example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einstein—considered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws.[87]

In another description of his view on the concept of God, Sagan emphatically wrote:

The idea that God is an oversized white male with a flowing beard who sits in the sky and tallies the fall of every sparrow is ludicrous. But if by God one means the set of physical laws that govern the universe, then clearly there is such a God. This God is emotionally unsatisfying ... it does not make much sense to pray to the law of gravity.[88]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Sagan#Personal_life_and_beliefs

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