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Question: West/East Marriage Culture

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On 11/21/2017 at 7:42 PM, AmirAlmuminin Lover said:

I wish I could change my first post or add "some" at the beginning, but I think later on I mentioned not all, some of them.

I lived in east. I haven't heard of not letting women to study. I lived in Iran, and I never heard of that. Please read that post that I mentioned working is ONLY one example. Of course, it's not about all women. But my first comment that I was not aware of that brings anger. Don't you think that it could be better if someone message me in private and say I think you need to change here in your post?

I honestly didn't have any intention to make offensive post. Maybe I couldn't state it in a correct way. This is the first time that users comments made me upset in ShiaChat.

I sincerely apologize if my first comment made other users upset or angry. My intention was NOT generalization.

I had lived in Iran for 4 years. The woman of my mother’s generation were expected to keep the house immaculate and raise kids. Many woman were not encouraged to study by their husbands. Even my mother today believes that no matter what degree a woman gets, she is to “prove her worth” to her husband by taking care of the Home, and shames anyone who has a less than ideally-clean home.

Woman do not have to obey men. Men have responsibility to take care of one’s family, but that doesn’t mean woman are to obey to whatever he says. The only time in which Allah mentions in the Quran that woman were among the righteous was in regards to obeying Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى and this doesn’t mean to submit to any man, but submit to the Creator. 

Edited by Islandsandmirrors

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I forgot to mention in my post that in Iran in my mother’s generation, wealthy woman rarely worked and were encouraged to stay home and not get a degree because in Persian culture, only in lower class or struggling families did woman work. 

Of course, that’s not the case now, and in Iran, more woman are getting degrees and working more than men, but aspects of the older generation still remains as Persian men, no matter how much a woman constributes in the working world, still want a perfect housewife who will do everything (because it’s “a woman’s job” to do so.) 

Edited by Islandsandmirrors

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9 hours ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

I forgot to mention in my post that in Iran in my mother’s generation, wealthy woman rarely worked and were encouraged to stay home and not get a degree because in Persian culture, only in lower class or struggling families did woman work. 

Of course, that’s not the case now, and in Iran, more woman are getting degrees and working more than men, but aspects of the older generation still remains as Persian men, no matter how much a woman constributes in the working world, still want a perfect housewife who will do everything (because it’s “a woman’s job” to do so.) 

I lived in Iran for 23 years and not 4 years. I don't know what Persian culture you are talking about. Almost all my friends are looking for a practicing Muslim wife(working  or not working). Those families are in US too. Working/not working is not my point. You got my message wrong. Women contribution is not my topic. Please read my other messages.

I consider myself a middle class, but my mother is working. My aunt family is lower class, but she is working. My uncle family is upper class, but she is working. Our president's wife is housewife. Our leader's wife is housewife. I gave you numerous examples to tell you what you saw is wrong. I can give more examples if you want.

Edited by AmirAlmuminin Lover

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3 hours ago, AmirAlmuminin Lover said:

I lived in Iran for 23 years and not 4 years. I don't know what Persian culture you are talking about. Almost all my friends are looking for a practicing Muslim wife(working  or not working). Those families are in US too. Working/not working is not my point. You got my message wrong. Women contribution is not my topic. Please read my other messages.

I consider myself a middle class, but my mother is working. My aunt family is lower class, but she is working. My uncle family is upper class, but she is working. Our president's wife is housewife. Our leader's wife is housewife. I gave you numerous examples to tell you what you saw is wrong. I can give more examples if you want.

Honey, my family is Persian. I know what I’m talking about. My mother was raised to not work, because, I hate saying this without sounding like a snob, but my mother (and father) is extremely wealthy, and our extended family is also extremely wealthy, and no one from my mother’s generation really works, because it would have looked bad to them. I’m not talking about just middle class families. 

That said, times have changed in Iran, and your friends are from a different generation from my parents. 

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On 11/21/2017 at 10:07 PM, ali_fatheroforphans said:

I agree with @Smiles786 that your comment can come across as pretty offensive for a lot of Western Muslim girls.

I don't know what TV show you probs watched of a couple of arrogant feminists - and now you feel all Western women are the same. 

My mum was raised up in an Eastern culture and she is only a housewife because her parents never let her study. My mother never wanted to sit at home and do nothing. I wonder why you don't mention these fundamental issues in Eastern culture. 

Some women don't like to be dependant on their husbands - which is good in my opinion. One of my uncles passed away and now his wife has to provide for herself and her newborn baby. Luckily she was trying crazy to become independent while my uncle was alive. She applied for so many jobs and fortunately got one. Now she doesn't have to go back to Pakistan and rely on her parents, so they can support her.

My point is that - stop with the baseless generalizations. Some women who seem very keen to be independent, have a right to do so. Who are we to throw in labels like "they are freedom seeking", "they don't value becoming housewives".

I don't mean to offend you or anything. I'm just stating my own opinion. You even got pretty offended when I said how some eastern women obey their husbands even though they get abused. Just like me - you are generalizing too and many will get offended.

Peace :grin:

Salaam

Firstly I just want to address that while generalizing in general is bad regardless. For some strange reason it is more acceptable for Muslim women to generalize either eastern or western men but not the other way around. So I just wanted to remind you that if you are consistent in your morality then you must criticise either generalization. In fact on this very thread there are women generalizing men and I have not seen at least you criticise them. I don't care how much you agree with those generalizations, because if by some chance that you are okay with generalizing men then I can use the same logic to generalize women. And I can use hundreds of anecdotes and examples to justify my generalizations of women.

That being said I don't believe in generalizing either gender but imma have to bust out my generalizations if by some chance you are okay with men being generalized in any capacity. 

Again, kindly don't play the anecdote game. Because for every anecdote that you qoute to support your theory I can qoute another anecdote that opposes it. So instead let us avoid anecdotes. 

Also I don't know what religion you follow but muslim women are supposed to rely on their husbands for income. Even if a muslim woman has a job the hubby still provides for her and maintains her. And there are fatwa from ayatollahs saying that a husband even has the right to prevent his wife from working if it causes "fitna" in the household.  Ergo a Muslim woman has only the "option" in ideal fiqhi conditions but not the "right" to hold a job. In fact you would be surprised just how much in Shia fiqh a woman can be limited in terms of holding a job and how her "option" to hold a job can be revoked IF it causes some acute or even obtuse form of fitna, especially when she is married. She must be provided by either her father, hubby, blood brother, etc.  No matter what context l, the fiqh always will have a man provide for a Muslim woman, unlike modern day capitalism that expects a woman to only provide for herself.  This is not to say that muslim women should never work but that her option, not right, to work is still fairly restricted and does not mean that muslim women should not rely on their hubbies, fathet, etc. Islam DOES promote a form of a patriarchal society and the Quran itself defines the strict gender role of men having no choice and how they must provide for their wives, sisters, mothers, etc. And a Muslim woman's option, not right, to work is restricted so as not to interfere in this gendered responsibility of Muslim men. Even in the fiqh her option and freedom to work is in the hands of her husband IF there is a fear of fitna emerging. And fitna covers everything from small benign things to major things. So I am not talking of men who randomly say their wives should not work. But in this day and age many jobs involve small amounts of fitna, and most scholars agree that this judging of fitna is either controlled by the husband or by the scholars if they feel the husband is not adequate in terms of identifying fiqhi defined fitna. 

Also sister "notme" did a good job of explaining the issue with the motivation people like your aunt had when it comes to getting a job. 

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On 11/27/2017 at 6:44 PM, Guest Account Ali said:

Salaam

Firstly I just want to address that while generalizing in general is bad regardless. For some strange reason it is more acceptable for Muslim women to generalize either eastern or western men but not the other way around. So I just wanted to remind you that if you are consistent in your morality then you must criticise either generalization. In fact on this very thread there are women generalizing men and I have not seen at least you criticise them. I don't care how much you agree with those generalizations, because if by some chance that you are okay with generalizing men then I can use the same logic to generalize women. And I can use hundreds of anecdotes and examples to justify my generalizations of women. That being said I don't believe in generalizing either gender but imma have to bust out my generalizations if by some chance you are okay with men being generalized in any capacity. 

Again, kindly don't play the anecdote game. Because for every anecdote that you qoute to support your theory I can qoute another anecdote that opposes it. So instead let us avoid anecdotes. 

Also I don't know what religion you follow but muslim women are supposed to rely on their husbands for income. Even if a muslim woman has a job the hubby still provides for her snd maintains her. And there are fatwa from ayatollahs saying that a husband even has the right to prevent his wife from working if it causes "fitna" in the household.  Ergo a Muslim woman has only the "option" in ideal fiqhi conditions but not the "right" to hold a job. In fact you would be surprised just how much in Shia fiqh a woman can be limited in terms of holding a job and how her "option" to hold a job can be revoked, especially when she is married. She must be provided by either her father, hubby, blood brother, etc.  No matter what context the fiqh always will have a man provide for a Muslim woman, unlike modern day capitalism that expects a woman to only provide for herself.  This is not to say that muslim women should never work but that her option, not right, to work is still fairly restricted and does not mean that muslim women should not rely on their hubbies, fathet, etc. For money. Islam DOES promote a form of a patriarchal society and the Quran itself defines this strict gender role of men having no choice and how they must provide for their wives, sisters, mothers, etc. And a Muslim woman's option, not right, to work is restricted so as not to interfere in this gendered responsibility of Muslim men and even in the fiqh her option to work is out in the hands of her husband IF there is a fear of fitna emerging. And fitna covers everything from small benign things to major things. 

Also sister "notme" did a good job of explaining the issue with the motivation people like your aunt had when it comes to getting a job. 

I appreciate your comment. Even though my purpose was not generalization and I asked admin to edit my post to avoid confusion, some users accused me for generalization which was NOT my purpose. Needless to say, some of them used their own generalization for eastern men. I decided to be quiet and not say anything because I saw that it doesn't go anywhere.

I saw some western Muslim women that made me surprised about how family oriented they are. For example, I saw an Iraqi woman who said I want to be house wife after being married just to take care of children. Women like this truly deserve best love from their husband. These women are not that much in comparison with other Muslims. Same thing you can find in men (let's be honest with ourselves).

My purpose was learning and knowing differences. Let's forget about this boundaries. I do not care about that. No body cares about that. Tell experiences, give examples, brings reasons and support your claim. In this way we can make a live and helpful conversation. I wanted to bring up marriage limitations on men and women, but I don't think there is enough motivation for that.

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On 11/27/2017 at 6:59 PM, AmirAlmuminin Lover said:

aw some western Muslim women that made me surprised about how family oriented they are. For example, I saw an Iraqi woman who said I want to be house wife after being married just to take care of children. Women like this truly deserve best love from their husband. These women are not that much in comparison with other Muslims. Same thing you can find in men (let's be honest with ourselves).

So a woman who wants to work, either part time or full time, does not deserve love from her husband? 

What BS. You sound like you just want control like many Persian men out there. That’s why I have rejected every Persian suitor. 

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On 11/29/2017 at 9:40 AM, Islandsandmirrors said:

So a woman who wants to work, either part time or full time, does not deserve love from her husband? 

What BS. You sound like you just want control like many Persian men out there. That’s why I have rejected every Persian suitor. 

Sister, it was not my intention. I mentioned in my previous posts that man and woman can BOTH work,but be dependent on each other emotionally. I clearly mentioned this. You can find it in my previous posts in this thread.

You talked about generalization. Please be fair and take a look at my posts from a fair point of view. You don't need to post here anything, but see which one used generalization? As I said generalization is not my intention, Andi mentioned that example from a western Muslim to those who want to accuse me.

Sister, I see some sense of judgement in your post. It does not fit on a Shia Muslim like you. I apologized here for confusion that may caused, I asked admin to correct it, and I clearly mentioned and brought example here that generalization was NOT my purpose. Please don't judge me. Your comment made me upset. Some users here used judgements and unfair claims that made me thinking of removing my profile from ShiaChat. It is  حق الناس to make people upset. Please bring reason, example, and experience to make a helpful live thread. These judgements and misunderstandings just deviate topic from its main purpose.

و من الله توفیق

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@Guest Account Ali When you said all those things about desi culture, I thought you had different thinking but you proved me wrong. Your thinking about women is very much like desi culture. Yes I am a feminist and I am not ashamed of it. I think all those women who have negative views about feminism are spoiled, they have too much rights, and they may need to be oppressed so that they can understand the importance of feminism and what kind of battles women had to fight.  Your posts were very long, I won't address every part. I will respond to some points I remember: @Islandsandmirrors posted about Persian culture. Her points were very similar to what I was trying to say. No matter what skills a woman has or how accomplished she is, her worth only depends upon house-keeping skills and cooking skills. Also, it seems like you think women today are spoiled. I think men are spoiled. Men during the early times of Islam used to fight battles, they had to put their lives in danger and they had to do hard physical labor. Men of today sit in their comfortable offices and complain about their wives not doing enough. They don't fight battles or do hard physical labor. 

At the end I will post an article, it had stories of 16 women who preferred their career over their marriages and families. If this article cannot give you understanding of such women, then I cannot help you. 

https://www.thenews.com.pk/magazine/you/249509-16-days-16-stories

 

Edited by rkazmi33

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On 11/30/2017 at 2:37 PM, rkazmi33 said:

@Guest Account Ali When you said all those things about desi culture, I thought you had different thinking but you proved me wrong. Your thinking about women is very much like desi culture. Yes I am a feminist and I am not ashamed of it. I think all those women who have negative views about feminism are spoiled, they have too much rights, and they may need to be oppressed so that they can understand the importance of feminism and what kind of battles women had to fight.  Your posts were very long, I won't address every part. I will respond to some points I remember: @Islandsandmirrors posted about Persian culture. Her points were very similar to what I was trying to say. No matter what skills a woman has or how accomplished she is, her worth only depends upon house-keeping skills and cooking skills. Also, it seems like you think women today are spoiled. I think men are spoiled. Men during the early times of Islam used to fight battles, they had to put their lives in danger and they had to do hard physical labor. Men of today sit in their comfortable offices and complain about their wives not doing enough. They don't fight battles or do hard physical labor. 

At the end I will post an article, it had stories of 16 women who preferred their career over their marriages and families. If this article cannot give you understanding of such women, then I cannot help you. 

https://www.thenews.com.pk/magazine/you/249509-16-days-16-stories

Firstly, your article talks about domestic violence and abuse. Which is very very different from the tone of your comments on this thread. But since you want to derail the conversation, I shall play along. 

Firstly, empowering women prevents nothing. There is just as much domestic abuse in the West despite a woman having a degree and income. And I can cite you studied that show that there is a weak link between risk of domestic abuse and a woman's income and job. Being a workaholic prevents nothing. The key thing that prevents abuse is a headstrong personality and even jahil women have headstrong personalities that alone can prevent abuse. Some but not all  women in my family back in India suffered from domestic abuse and until they developed a headstrong personality the abuse continued. And these female relatives are all income earning and have jobs. And imagine their shock when they learnt that having these two things prevented NOTHING.

Also we have not even delved into why some men and women abuse. They don't do so because spontaneously they become ape or "patriarchy". It is because they were exposed to abuse as kids and for them it became normalized. So if a mother decides to slap her young son around silly don't be suprised that the son grows up to abuse his wife. There is a STRONG correlation between men and women being abused when they were kids and these same people growing up to be domestic abusers. And Desi culture is very complacent with severe corporal punishment towards children, and this can lead to these kids becoming domestic abusers when they become older. Which is a way more plausible explanation as to domestic abuse vs. " The patriarchy". If we want to curb domestic violence let us give our kids a loving home environment to live in and not expose our kids to the type of physical abuse that our parents subjected us to. Then magically domestic violence will tank down in practice. Also the article references Pakistan. I hope you realize that Pakistan is a country so corrupt that proper justice is never meted out in any and all criminal cases, whether domestic abuse or thievery, or murder, etc. So once again it is futile to invoke "patriarchy" when the issue is more multi-faceted than that. And part of solving these issues is understanding the issue in all its nuances, so in that sense I care deeply about solving things like domestic violence the right way, don't know about you though. 

Also not to mention in the West and in the US to be specific according to recent surveys MORE men are victims of domestic violence at the hands of their wives than the reverse. So the West does have a huge domestic violence problem, just one that is not convenient for the feminist agenda. I know a guy who was a victim of abuse by a woman in his past and literally he is not able to attend a rehabilitation clinic as in his area feminists quite literally have shut down domestic violence shelters that help male victims. I am not joking. 

Also please read my posts carefully. You are being intellectually dishonest. You have strawmanned my arguments. And there are literally hadith that say that a woman's obligations towards her husband are massive compare to the hubbys obligations towards the wife. And I find it ironic that you want Muslim men to act like the companions. But the same thing applies to women as well and they should act like our revered ancient pious women. And I can tell that women like you and Muslim women in general are a far shot away from acting like the pious women. And I don't think our pious women would agree that one's job is more important than her family and husband. Learning is one thing, being obsessed and trying to earn an income to "avoid abuse" is another. So before pointing fingers at guys, I want to see a genuine effort on your part and on the part of Muslim women to act like our pious women. There are many sermons that Hazrat Fatima (AS) gave that would be at massive odds with your views on feminism and marital responsibilities. Muslim men don't have to change ourselves to become like the companions and ancient Muslim men if Muslim women are by a much wider margin far away from the model of behavior of our ancient pious women. So change yourself before you expect men to change. Are there cases where women are very very pious and model themselves after the ancient pious women and get abused? Yes, but you have to be dense to think that the vast majority of Muslim women behave in any way similar to our female pious predecessors. 

Also the sister who commented on Persian culture is making broad generalizations. And brothers here can make condescending generalizations about women in the West as well. For example, I can say that muslim women in the West are loose and most have pre marital sex. I too can give you hundreds of anecdotes of Muslim women admitting to having pre marital relationships. And I sure as heck can give you more than 16 different articles wherein Muslim women in the West confess their sexual sins. So therefore I can say that muslim women in the West are generally loose and immodest. Also on The topic of domestic abuse, I can according to relevant stats say that women in the west are mostly domestic abusers. I can be as sure of this generalization as you are sure of how you generalize eastern men. I await your reaction to my generalizations so I can prove my point (I do not believe in generalizing either gender. But we live in a day and age where women go ape when men generalize women but in reverse is deemed as if it were some hidden gospel of truth)

Also I lol at how you think Muslim women who are anti-feminists are coddled. Are you sure about that statement? Are you really sure? Since I know that there are just as many Muslim women who have been pampered their entire life yet are staunch feminists. Also even amongst non muslim women feminism is dying out. And oh boy there are a massive number of non muslim women who went through horrible things like rape, molestation, sexual harassement, groping, etc. But even these women still find inherent issues that are unresolvable in regards to feminism. Listen, feminism is not a make it up as you go ideology. It is an academic field that revolves around its authors. And ironic since the founders of feminism were very much pampered women, not to mention highly racist as well. 

That being said, yes some women who do become feminists came from certain backgrounds. But feminism is not the answer. Here is a good article and video on the matter, granted the people speaking and writing are Sunnis. Please watch the entire video and listen to both speakers.

https://yaqeeninstitute.org/en/nour-soubani/is-feminism-the-problem-why-ideological-bandwagons-fail-islam/

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On 28/11/2017 at 7:44 AM, Guest Account Ali said:

In fact on this very thread there are women generalizing men and I have not seen at least you criticise them

Two wrongs don't make a right. Don't be too steeped into this whole men vs women thing. I even said in my previous post "Just like me - you are generalizing too and many will get offended." (Kindly read that again if it didn't get to your head). I only wanted to challange the OP's generalizations because that is what the original question was. 

On 28/11/2017 at 7:44 AM, Guest Account Ali said:

kindly don't play the anecdote game. Because for every anecdote that you qoute to support your theory I can qoute another anecdote that opposes it. So instead let us avoid anecdotes. 

This is so disrespectful man!! My uncle passed away and this story means a lot to me. I don't see why you have a problem with it.

On 28/11/2017 at 7:44 AM, Guest Account Ali said:

Also I don't know what religion you follow but muslim women are supposed to rely on their husbands for income.

Here comes the dominating mentality. I do respect women who want to become housewives as they have the right to, no doubt. However Muslim women also have the right to become independent. I don't know what world you live - because there are so many opportunities for them. Women are very talented and you have no right to say that they have to be dependant on their husbands. What if a man starts abusing his wife? where do you think she will go? how will she support herself? I know of so many women who have to put up with their abusive husbands (sorry I have to say this again) because they are dependant on them. Our marja have made their fatwas for pious men, who won't be abusive to their wives. I absolutely don't think in this day and age, they have to be dependent on men. 

Yes, I do agree that men and women have different roles in some way. I'm not trying to change the roles or anything. I just feel that you make your answer seem so black and white, without taking into consideration - so many factors. We men have no right to decide their future. If they choose to be housewives, then let them be, vice versa.

Edited by ali_fatheroforphans

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Guest Account Ali -  The world is complex not as simple as your rant. Don''t hate humans, hate the game.

You have not addressed as to how a particular gender type becomes headstrong?. While some that take a beating and become subservient, another will errupt like the fire of hell.

You have failed to understand what empowering women actually does. It gives them a right to decide their own fate. Now the problem lies, just for men, that, empowering fails when one who has been a slave all his life has now been given the keys to become a master.

Female abuse. Why do women do it?. Because they can get away with it, knowing the law still considers women the petty gender. Who in the law considers this?. Males do. Why do they?, because they need to impress the females and be the hero. This tell us, that each gender finds it difficult to uphold justice without bias.

Western womens immodesty. Well this comes from giving them rights to be totally free, considering their nature is too wild without control. How is this possible. Emotion vs Rationality. How does one contain something that is easily influenced, especially when they see genetically gifted females doing other wise. We live in a competitive environment, while humans are social, to be socially accepted, rules will be broken.

Western femnism, was invented to make more females become consumers. They had no purchasing power while being house wives of poor men. I am sure it did stem from giving actually rights to make decisions, but consumerism comes first before actual human rights. Would thiestic females go towards western femnism if the thiestic males acted accordingly?, considering both western and eastern ideology is based on one thing only. The domination and control of one over another. Thus, this whole post is useless.

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Brothers, I don't care about differences anymore. Please don't offend each other verbally. If a non-shia look at our posts, what would he/she think about us? Knowing these differences doesn't worth to lose our online friendship.

Great appreciation to those who didn't violate Akhlaq and those who violated but made it correct.

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On 12/1/2017 at 5:17 AM, ali_fatheroforphans said:

Two wrongs don't make a right. Don't be too steeped into this whole men vs women thing. I even said in my previous post "Just like me - you are generalizing too and many will get offended." (Kindly read that again if it didn't get to your head). I only wanted to challange the OP's generalizations because that is what the original question was. 

This is so disrespectful man!! My uncle passed away and this story means a lot to me. I don't see why you have a problem with it.

Here comes the dominating mentality. I do respect women who want to become housewives as they have the right to, no doubt. However Muslim women also have the right to become independent. I don't know what world you live - because there are so many opportunities for them. Women are very talented and you have no right to say that they have to be dependant on their husbands. What if a man starts abusing his wife? where do you think she will go? how will she support herself? I know of so many women who have to put up with their abusive husbands (sorry I have to say this again) because they are dependant on them. Our marja have made their fatwas for pious men, who won't be abusive to their wives. I absolutely don't think in this day and age, they have to be dependent on men. 

Yes, I do agree that men and women have different roles in some way. I'm not trying to change the roles or anything. I just feel that you make your answer seem so black and white, without taking into consideration - so many factors. We men have no right to decide their future. If they choose to be housewives, then let them be, vice versa.

You say one thing but do another. I appreciate consistency. So don't generalize but then complain when people call you out on it. Simple. 

Don't be emotional on me. I dislike using your uncle's situation to support your agenda. That is way way more disrespectful, especially to the dead. 

Also just a darn diddly moment, are you a reformist by any chance? Knowing this would let me understand your mindset on these things. 

If she is married she is not Independent, don't know what religion you follow. For God's sake marja have said that a husband has the right to prevent his wife from working if her job entails fitna or is causing fitna or interfering with her marital duties. So clearly in the fiqh she is not Independent to any extent. And like I said it don't matter if she is a billionaire her hubby still has to provide for her. So in that sense it becomes impossible for her to become Independent. She can still work and make an income but it is not in the same unlimited capacity as in the west. So if you are going to talk about Muslim women working and earning an income then talk about it from a fiqhi POV, and refrain from using buzzwords like rights and Independent to describe this specific matter. 

Also I suggest you read my first comment on this thread:

"Also when I use the word "bureaucratised" I mean it as per the denotation of Max Weber. If you don't know who he is, then google him. 

Well actually if you look at the muslim world before the encroachment of western culture (before colonialism) muslims thought of marriage differently than they do now even in the east. Previously, most muslim women had some source of income (doctor, merchant, scholar, etc.) but that these jobs were not bureaucratised and thus did not interfere in a woman's ability to maintain and love her family. These jobs were seen, as well, jobs. And your family and religious duties were seen as exponentially more important. Thus, these muslim women were both obedient to their spouse and their family duties and also extremely religious people but would also earn an income as well since these jobs were not as demanding or if they were were on an informal level (depending on her hirer) were typically made flexible especially if a woman was married. Since at that time it was rare for a man to find a job that could solely provide for the whole family and their growing needs. Again, these jobs were pre-modern and not bureaucratised.

However, nowadays jobs have become bureaucratised to such extremes that they surpassed the expectations of even folks like Max Weber. Education is a matter of literally just earning points and little to do with genuine learning (there are people who earn these points but are quite dim in terms of intelligence and problem-solving). And once you do get a job it is incredibly methodical and time-consuming, especially STEM fields. As a result, an informal thing like a marriage and family comes crashing hard against the machine-like socioeconomic demands of education and jobs. And since modern day feminism seems to think a woman's place is in the "machine" as it were, and not amongst her family or spouse a lot of impressionable muslim women become indoctrinated by this ideology and gravitate towards the machine and less towards their family and spouse. Not to say that it is bad to have a job, but that muslim women should be able to hold a job (doctor, engineer, etc.) but know that deep down her family and spouse is way more important than the job that she has. And that she must draw lines whenever she has to".

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On 12/1/2017 at 5:54 AM, monad said:

Guest Account Ali -  The world is complex not as simple as your rant. Don''t hate humans, hate the game.

You have not addressed as to how a particular gender type becomes headstrong?. While some that take a beating and become subservient, another will errupt like the fire of hell.

You have failed to understand what empowering women actually does. It gives them a right to decide their own fate. Now the problem lies, just for men, that, empowering fails when one who has been a slave all his life has now been given the keys to become a master.

Female abuse. Why do women do it?. Because they can get away with it, knowing the law still considers women the petty gender. Who in the law considers this?. Males do. Why do they?, because they need to impress the females and be the hero. This tell us, that each gender finds it difficult to uphold justice without bias.

Western womens immodesty. Well this comes from giving them rights to be totally free, considering their nature is too wild without control. How is this possible. Emotion vs Rationality. How does one contain something that is easily influenced, especially when they see genetically gifted females doing other wise. We live in a competitive environment, while humans are social, to be socially accepted, rules will be broken.

Western femnism, was invented to make more females become consumers. They had no purchasing power while being house wives of poor men. I am sure it did stem from giving actually rights to make decisions, but consumerism comes first before actual human rights. Would thiestic females go towards western femnism if the thiestic males acted accordingly?, considering both western and eastern ideology is based on one thing only. The domination and control of one over another. Thus, this whole post is useless.

Bruh, firstly please ease off the Bong. Your explanation of headstrong personalities is ridicoulus. But some nuggets of truth did I find. Like how many who are abused become headstrong. That is true, except probably not in the way you think. Since an abuser must have been abused as a kid, and so on. Empowering women does nothing if your mama beats you as a kid, and you then magically grow up to become an abuser (ironic since women in eastern societies seem to abuse their kids at a similar rate to men. Even the empowered women). And rarely do empowred women seem to care much about men and boys getting physically abused. I kid you not when I say that I know a guy who was a victim of abuse by a woman in his past and every domestic abuse center in his area that helped abused men has been shut down by these "empowered women" since they seem to think that men and boys cannot be physically abused. The rest of your explanation is when you were in Nirvana or something like that. 

Secondly are you referring to my response to your first post on this thread? If the answer is yes, then I was absolutely not off topic and you are a characteristic example of straw-manning someone's arguments. You mentioned how it gives them more choices, I said it does not nor does it prevent abuse. You said that men abuse women financially, while ignoring that women also do the same thing to Muslim men. I witness the reverse almost all the time, where Muslim women will love to buy elaborate and expensive dresses that the hubby sees as a waste of time and money, and the list goes on. Honestly, in some communities it gets to a point where from the mimbar scholars have to warn Muslim women not to financially abuse their husbands. Even in my conservative US community I had to witness our local moulana say from the mimbar about the ways Muslim women can responsibly spend their husbands money. 

Also secondly you literally explained complicated issues with one liners and paragraph length social summaries. You see, I actually care about solving these issues rather than screaming the word "patriarchy" or "empowering women" of which studies have shown that neither of these things contribute or help alleviate domestic abuse, etc. So kindly do not pretend to be an amateur sociologist in cases like these, and look at studies done in order to form better conclusions. 

Female Abuse. Why do women do it? Because mommy or daddy beat the heck out of her when she was a child. Therefore for her being abused is normalized and when given the chance she will externalize this and abuse her husband or boyfriend. The law being lenient towards her in this matter only helps to not have her face consequences and be punished. However, there are just as many women who are not abused when they are children and therefore they do not grow up to become domestic abusers. Yes, it is important that the law be adequate but far from it that the law not being adequate is a prime motivator. I have taken internships at these domestic abuse centers and my own mother has female work colleagues who are psychologists who all say that both abusive men and women were themselves abused when they were younger and internalized it, but when you internalize something you have to externalize it at some point. Women or men don't just go ape because "patriarchy" or "matriarchy", again these are complicated issues. In addition there are many other variables that contribute to this issue that I may not have discussed. And for that, I suggest opening up a completely different thread on domestic abuse and violence.  

Western women's immodesty. Is mainly a consequence of fashion and its advertising. I suggest you look up the psychologist "John B. Watson" to get a better idea about why women will wear immodest clothing, despite clearly the fact that such clothes are nothing but sexist towards women. Also on the subject of lots of sex before marriage. I partially agree with you. In the sense Fornication occurred a lot among the Jahiliyya Arabs as well, and I don't think anyone can say that women were favored in that time and society. So, if anything it has more to do with a society being godless/irreligious and that on a social level encourage pre-marital sex, with "rights" being entirely coincidental. Even studies have shown that most women who fornicate a lot do do so purely due to social pressure. And that when sex is on the brain for most women they rarely display the same polygamous behavior that men fantasize about. Instead, most of them envision monogamy and women statistically do not prefer serial monogamy but do so purely out of social obligations or in order to find "that one guy", and according to my observations because some but not all women would rather find a compatible partner than attempt to change themselves and reconfigure their own behavioral faults. Granted there may be more variables to this issue than what I discussed. So in my opinion an entire separate thread needs to be opened on this issue as well.  

Western feminism. Actually I am not disagreeing with you much on your last paragraph. But the takeaway message of power dynamics is where you hit a dead end. There is little social scientific evidence for "power dynamics" being responsible for any ails that plague men or women in any society. And to be honest screaming such one-liners seems to ignore how complex these issues are, and how even I will admit that I may not discuss everything pertinent to these situations. And clearly you do not as well. The difference is that I don't make broad generalizations without relying on social scientific data nor do I make definitive claims. Also again, why do you ignore that theistic females do not act accordingly either? Females here want Muslim men to act like the companions but there should be zero pressure on them to act like our pious female predecessors. I highly doubt that our pious female predecessors would even entertain most of the social ideologies that Muslim women nowadays possess. Not to mention the rising trend of Muslim women being slaves to fashion and wearing immodest outfits like yoga pants, tight jeans, etc.

So here is some advice for you and Muslim women everywhere, before you start pointing fingers at Muslim men and tell them to act more accordingly. Are you acting accordingly? And I mean truly so, as in have you  obeyed what the orthodox shia fiqh dictates in terms of gender roles? Most Muslim women love to say "yes" but increasingly nowadays at least from my perspective I am going to have to strongly disagree with that theistic assessment of your piety. And if you are a far shot off from being Hazrat Fatima (AS) and seem disinterested in emulating her then I see no point in men attempting to model themselves after Imam Ali (AS). And by emulating I mean genuinely emulating, and not just taking episodes from her life and saying "see, I can do what I want". That ain't how most scholars understood the gender role Hazrat Fatima (AS) espoused. And there is no excuse for either gender to not act truly pious just because the other one is not. 

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Defo a female considering that SHE explained everything in detail what I implied and yet claimed I was incorrect. :hahaha:.

If you are a male, calm down and re-read my post and yours, see the difference between a post on a forum to writing an academic thesis. If you are having issues finding a spouse, then save up money go to a village and get one. Make sure she doesnt speak the language, but at least while you express your discontent, she will think wow, what a smart guy!.

Edited by monad
Tyranny will not be accepted.

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On 12/1/2017 at 2:23 AM, Guest Account Ali said:

Firstly, your article talks about domestic violence and abuse. Which is very very different from the tone of your comments on this thread. But since you want to derail the conversation, I shall play along. 

Firstly, empowering women prevents nothing. There is just as much domestic abuse in the West despite a woman having a degree and income. And I can cite you studied that show that there is a weak link between risk of domestic abuse and a woman's income and job. Being a workaholic prevents nothing. The key thing that prevents abuse is a headstrong personality and even jahil women have headstrong personalities that alone can prevent abuse. Some but not all  women in my family back in India suffered from domestic abuse and until they developed a headstrong personality the abuse continued. And these female relatives are all income earning and have jobs. And imagine their shock when they learnt that having these two things prevented NOTHING.

Also we have not even delved into why some men and women abuse. They don't do so because spontaneously they become ape or "patriarchy". It is because they were exposed to abuse as kids and for them it became normalized. So if a mother decides to slap her young son around silly don't be suprised that the son grows up to abuse his wife. There is a STRONG correlation between men and women being abused when they were kids and these same people growing up to be domestic abusers. And Desi culture is very complacent with severe corporal punishment towards children, and this can lead to these kids becoming domestic abusers when they become older. Which is a way more plausible explanation as to domestic abuse vs. " The patriarchy". If we want to curb domestic violence let us give our kids a loving home environment to live in and not expose our kids to the type of physical abuse that our parents subjected us to. Then magically domestic violence will tank down in practice. Also the article references Pakistan. I hope you realize that Pakistan is a country so corrupt that proper justice is never meted out in any and all criminal cases, whether domestic abuse or thievery, or murder, etc. So once again it is futile to invoke "patriarchy" when the issue is more multi-faceted than that. And part of solving these issues is understanding the issue in all its nuances, so in that sense I care deeply about solving things like domestic violence the right way, don't know about you though. 

Also not to mention in the West and in the US to be specific according to recent surveys MORE men are victims of domestic violence at the hands of their wives than the reverse. So the West does have a huge domestic violence problem, just one that is not convenient for the feminist agenda. I know a guy who was a victim of abuse by a woman in his past and literally he is not able to attend a rehabilitation clinic as in his area feminists quite literally have shut down domestic violence shelters that help male victims. I am not joking. 

Also please read my posts carefully. You are being intellectually dishonest. You have strawmanned my arguments. And there are literally hadith that say that a woman's obligations towards her husband are massive compare to the hubbys obligations towards the wife. And I find it ironic that you want Muslim men to act like the companions. But the same thing applies to women as well and they should act like our revered ancient pious women. And I can tell that women like you and Muslim women in general are a far shot away from acting like the pious women. And I don't think our pious women would agree that one's job is more important than her family and husband. Learning is one thing, being obsessed and trying to earn an income to "avoid abuse" is another. So before pointing fingers at guys, I want to see a genuine effort on your part and on the part of Muslim women to act like our pious women. There are many sermons that Hazrat Fatima (AS) gave that would be at massive odds with your views on feminism and marital responsibilities. Muslim men don't have to change ourselves to become like the companions and ancient Muslim men if Muslim women are by a much wider margin far away from the model of behavior of our ancient pious women. So change yourself before you expect men to change. Are there cases where women are very very pious and model themselves after the ancient pious women and get abused? Yes, but you have to be dense to think that the vast majority of Muslim women behave in any way similar to our female pious predecessors. 

Also the sister who commented on Persian culture is making broad generalizations. And brothers here can make condescending generalizations about women in the West as well. For example, I can say that muslim women in the West are loose and most have pre marital sex. I too can give you hundreds of anecdotes of Muslim women admitting to having pre marital relationships. And I sure as heck can give you more than 16 different articles wherein Muslim women in the West confess their sexual sins. So therefore I can say that muslim women in the West are generally loose and immodest. Also on The topic of domestic abuse, I can according to relevant stats say that women in the west are mostly domestic abusers. I can be as sure of this generalization as you are sure of how you generalize eastern men. I await your reaction to my generalizations so I can prove my point (I do not believe in generalizing either gender. But we live in a day and age where women go ape when men generalize women but in reverse is deemed as if it were some hidden gospel of truth)

Also I lol at how you think Muslim women who are anti-feminists are coddled. Are you sure about that statement? Are you really sure? Since I know that there are just as many Muslim women who have been pampered their entire life yet are staunch feminists. Also even amongst non muslim women feminism is dying out. And oh boy there are a massive number of non muslim women who went through horrible things like rape, molestation, sexual harassement, groping, etc. But even these women still find inherent issues that are unresolvable in regards to feminism. Listen, feminism is not a make it up as you go ideology. It is an academic field that revolves around its authors. And ironic since the founders of feminism were very much pampered women, not to mention highly racist as well. 

That being said, yes some women who do become feminists came from certain backgrounds. But feminism is not the answer. Here is a good article and video on the matter, granted the people speaking and writing are Sunnis. Please watch the entire video and listen to both speakers.

https://yaqeeninstitute.org/en/nour-soubani/is-feminism-the-problem-why-ideological-bandwagons-fail-islam/

 

On 11/30/2017 at 2:37 PM, rkazmi33 said:

@Guest Account Ali When you said all those things about desi culture, I thought you had different thinking but you proved me wrong. Your thinking about women is very much like desi culture. Yes I am a feminist and I am not ashamed of it. I think all those women who have negative views about feminism are spoiled, they have too much rights, and they may need to be oppressed so that they can understand the importance of feminism and what kind of battles women had to fight.  Your posts were very long, I won't address every part. I will respond to some points I remember: @Islandsandmirrors posted about Persian culture. Her points were very similar to what I was trying to say. No matter what skills a woman has or how accomplished she is, her worth only depends upon house-keeping skills and cooking skills. Also, it seems like you think women today are spoiled. I think men are spoiled. Men during the early times of Islam used to fight battles, they had to put their lives in danger and they had to do hard physical labor. Men of today sit in their comfortable offices and complain about their wives not doing enough. They don't fight battles or do hard physical labor. 

At the end I will post an article, it had stories of 16 women who preferred their career over their marriages and families. If this article cannot give you understanding of such women, then I cannot help you. 

https://www.thenews.com.pk/magazine/you/249509-16-days-16-stories

 

*Edit*

 

replace "And I can tell that women like you and Muslim women in general are a far shot away from acting like the pious women".   With "And I can tell that Muslim women in general are a far shot away from acting like the pious women".

 

Replace "So before pointing fingers at guys, I want to see a genuine effort on your part and on the part of Muslim women to act like our pious women". With "So before pointing fingers at guys, I want to see a genuine effort on the part of Muslim women in general to act like our pious women". 

 

Also I wanted to add that yes I am aware that some but not all Desi men in Desi countries will abuse and even kill their daughters for going to school and stuff like that. But once again screaming "patriarchy" or "Empowering women" does nothing without taking into consideration the context of these issues. Evoking these things solves nothing nor does it prevent this behavior from resurging. In order to stop this behavior we have to grasp it at its roots. In fact I will probably dedicate a separate thread to this issue. Since it deserves that in order to be eradicated rather than one-liners. 

 

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23 hours ago, monad said:

Defo a female considering that SHE explained everything in detail what I implied and yet claimed I was incorrect. :hahaha:.

If you are a male, calm down and re-read my post and yours, see the difference between a post on a forum to writing an academic thesis. If you are having issues finding a spouse, then save up money go to a village and get one. Make sure she doesnt speak the language, but at least while you express your discontent, she will think wow, what a smart guy!.

Genuine question. Were you ever hugged as a child? I can't imagine you ever were... Too many chapal or Jootae beatings? 

Edited by Guest Account Ali

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1 hour ago, Guest Account Ali said:

Genuine question. Were you ever hugged as a child? I can't imagine you ever were... Too many chapal or Jootae beatings? :blabla:

There is a difference between imagination and reality. At least I am living rent free in your mind. :hahaha:

The more you write the more you tell me, you need to see a therapist as there are underlining issues that you are angry about. Maybe your own poor experience or environment has imbeded a poor judgement of females, but consider that, while many are complaining, there are many with healthy relationships.

 

 

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7 hours ago, monad said:

There is a difference between imagination and reality. At least I am living rent free in your mind. :hahaha:

The more you write the more you tell me, you need to see a therapist as there are underlining issues that you are angry about. Maybe your own poor experience or environment has imbeded a poor judgement of females, but consider that, while many are complaining, there are many with healthy relationships.

 

 

Dude, you got some daddy issues. 

 

I too can play the one liner game. People like you are a dime a dozen. You love to act facetious towards people but if someone hurts your ego then all of a sudden that person is the issue. I suggest going to a therapist to understand why you act so condescending towards men but feel the need to defend women and elevate them on a pedestal higher than men. Bruh, in your own words "The world is complex not as simple as your rant" men are not always the bad guys and women often times are just as guilty. 

 

Also I would suggest possibly getting checked out for bipolar personality disorder. You have a habit of switching from being androgynistic to trying to sound rational but being condescending in the process. 

Edited by Guest Account Ali

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13 minutes ago, Guest Account Ali said:

Also I would suggest possibly getting checked out for bipolar personality disorder. You have a habit of switching from being androgynistic to trying to sound rational but being condescending in the process.

That is because I am a genius. Reason and Justice have no genders.

 

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Moderator note: I don't see any recent on-topic posts, so I'm just going to close this discussion. Thanks for your participation. 

Edited by notme

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