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Question: West/East Marriage Culture

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3 hours ago, AmirAlmuminin Lover said:

Salaam Alaykum

I don't appreciate your tone. It's not about ALL women in west, but I see freedom attitude is something common. I mentioned somebody else, not me.

I think everybody else here can see your tone and my tone and decide which one should change his/her attitude.

Don't worry about my tone. Stop generalizing us. Your words are very offensive

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3 hours ago, AmirAlmuminin Lover said:

Salaam Alaykum

I don't appreciate your tone. It's not about ALL women in west, but I see freedom attitude is something common. I mentioned somebody else, not me.

I think everybody else here can see your tone and my tone and decide which one should change his/her attitude.

Stop repeating yourself. If you don't have ANYTHING ELSE to say stop wasting posts. 

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I agree with @Smiles786 that your comment can come across as pretty offensive for a lot of Western Muslim girls.

I don't know what TV show you probs watched of a couple of arrogant feminists - and now you feel all Western women are the same. 

My mum was raised up in an Eastern culture and she is only a housewife because her parents never let her study. My mother never wanted to sit at home and do nothing. I wonder why you don't mention these fundamental issues in Eastern culture. 

Some women don't like to be dependant on their husbands - which is good in my opinion. One of my uncles passed away and now his wife has to provide for herself and her newborn baby. Luckily she was trying crazy to become independent while my uncle was alive. She applied for so many jobs and fortunately got one. Now she doesn't have to go back to Pakistan and rely on her parents, so they can support her.

My point is that - stop with the baseless generalizations. Some women who seem very keen to be independent, have a right to do so. Who are we to throw in labels like "they are freedom seeking", "they don't value becoming housewives".

I don't mean to offend you or anything. I'm just stating my own opinion. You even got pretty offended when I said how some eastern women obey their husbands even though they get abused. Just like me - you are generalizing too and many will get offended.

Peace :grin:

 

Edited by ali_fatheroforphans

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On 11/19/2017 at 10:09 PM, AmirAlmuminin Lover said:

From men: Please share your experience with me. Anything that you know may help me. Please share facts and experiences NOT your thoughts.

You yourself haven’t shared any facts, including any research studies, authoritative sources, or data that supports any claims made. You are giving conjecture, and by your own terms, “thoughts”. 

Sharing individual experiences may be interesting to read, but anecdotal evidence is rarely sufficient to make a conclusion.

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@ali_fatheroforphans

Salaam brother. Totally agree with you. Every family and every woman is different.  I do think it's important for men and women to provide for themselves and cook/clean. Lots of people end up living on their own for various reasons.  We should all make sure we can make it on our own just in case 

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I wish I could change my first post or add "some" at the beginning, but I think later on I mentioned not all, some of them.

I lived in east. I haven't heard of not letting women to study. I lived in Iran, and I never heard of that. Please read that post that I mentioned working is ONLY one example. Of course, it's not about all women. But my first comment that I was not aware of that brings anger. Don't you think that it could be better if someone message me in private and say I think you need to change here in your post?

I honestly didn't have any intention to make offensive post. Maybe I couldn't state it in a correct way. This is the first time that users comments made me upset in ShiaChat.

I sincerely apologize if my first comment made other users upset or angry. My intention was NOT generalization.

Edited by AmirAlmuminin Lover

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19 hours ago, Guest Account Ali said:

Salaam, 
And also ironically shaming housewives and not appreciating these women is actually a problem here in the west, and ironically is pervaded largely by third-wave feminism that thinks that housewives are "brain-washed women" and also feminists nowadays pervade the concept that women should be "free" with their sexuality. Thus, men will naturally gravitate towards these free-loving women (which is not a good thing) but then marry another woman to appease familial desires. Essentially, some but not all muslim men will date one kind of woman but then marry another kind. Partly because they feel guilty for being attracted to those types of women and think that by marrying some eastern pious woman he can rectify his mistakes (which is futile and incorrect thinking).

 

Again, what many eastern men will assume is that western women are more freer with their sexuality and thus more sinful (which there is some truth to that statement, but still it is an exaggeration), and in a sort of weird paradoxical moment some but not all eastern men will be naturally more attracted to these "sexually freer" women but then also want to "fix" these women. And why they want to fix these women is because they think it will ease the guilt they have themselves for being attracted to free-loving women in the first place, instead of being attracted to pious women (who some but not all tend to be woefully ignorant of male sexuality). 

 

Housewives may be shamed by other women but if they are good at cooking and cleaning, they are very much appreciated by men. And in the male dominated culture, anyone who is popular among men holds the power, so it doesn't matter much  even if they are not very popular among other women.

When I say eastern men want to tame women, I don't mean making them more modest. Modesty is never their concern. It's only about cooking and cleaning skills. They want to teach all women how to cook and clean properly. My close friend was successful professionally, she was earning a lot of money but she was also hot-tempered. Then she got married, now she is a house-wife, she washes clothes with hands (in America) and she cooks roti at home (in America) and still she is daily compared with other women who are better at cooking and cleaning, she doesn't protest or say a word. This is what I mean by "taming" of a western woman, and many eastern men want to do this taming, I don't understand why don't they just get a submissive woman who is already good at cooking and cleaning. 

People keep telling me that you are generalizing based on your personal experience. I have observed hundreds of people in my extended family and also in my community. If all of the men act like that, am I wrong in making an assumption that all men are like this? I will agree with you that desi community is like this and unfortunately my only close interaction is with desi community. I have interacted with non-muslim men only in professional settings but I don't have any non-muslim friends, so I don't really know what goes on inside their houses. But Yes, all the desi people I have dealt with are like this.

 Women can be modest even if they are successful professionally and house wives can have affairs while sitting at home. House-wives don't remain in a segregated environment. Eastern people are very social, men and women visit each other's houses frequently and interact with each other all the time. Many eastern people live in joint family systems and I don't see how living in a joint family system is different than working with men. 

Edited by rkazmi33

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1 hour ago, rkazmi33 said:

Housewives may be shamed by other women but if they are good at cooking and cleaning, they are very much appreciated by men. And in the male dominated culture, anyone who is popular among men holds the power, so it doesn't matter much  even if they are not very popular among other women.

When I say eastern men want to tame women, I don't mean making them more modest. Modesty is never their concern. It's only about cooking and cleaning skills. They want to teach all women how to cook and clean properly. My close friend was successful professionally, she was earning a lot of money but she was also hot-tempered. Then she got married, now she is a house-wife, she washes clothes with hands (in America) and she cooks roti at home (in America) and still she is daily compared with other women who are better at cooking and cleaning, she doesn't protest or say a word. This is what I mean by "taming" of a western woman, and many eastern men want to do this taming, I don't understand why don't they just get a submissive woman who is already good at cooking and cleaning. 

People keep telling me that you are generalizing based on your personal experience. I have observed hundreds of people in my extended family and also in my community. If all of the men act like that, am I wrong in making an assumption that all men are like this? I will agree with you that desi community is like this and unfortunately my only close interaction is with desi community. I have interacted with non-muslim men only in professional settings but I don't have any non-muslim friends, so I don't really know what goes on inside their houses. But Yes, all the desi people I have dealt with are like this.

 Women can be modest even if they are successful professionally and house wives can have affairs while sitting at home. House-wives don't remain in a segregated environment. Eastern people are very social, men and women visit each other's houses frequently and interact with each other all the time. Many eastern people live in joint family systems and I don't see how living in a joint family system is different than working with men. 

That is a good comment. Thanks for the points.

First of all one user said that since eastern men think western women are freer, they are sinful. I did NOT mean that kind of freedom. It doesn't matter whether you are western or eastern. If you're Muslim, you won't do that. I mainly focused on freedom in working, money, and freedom in social interactions. These freedom I think does not attach man and woman to each other like before. For example, in SOME parts of eastern countries, man and woman are so dependent on each other. When you look at it, you see that they have some sort of limitations on their social interactions and give higher priority to family. You see that they spend MORE time than most western families with their family. I think one of the things that helped into these form of families is that wife is householder. She kept her husband around herself, and man became attracted and dependent on her. In western culture I think men at work are in contact with women. They are not Muslim and this is some sort of deterioration for his family base. Because he sees other women without Hijab, and if he doesn't follow religion correctly, he goes back home at night and compares his wife with his female colleagues (I know it's disgusting). These social interactions does not attach man and woman to each other in a proper way, and I think it is an introduction to freedom. I think it gives you this freedom to spend more time than before with your colleagues rather than your wife. Let me tell you from my experience of Iran. I personally cannot imagine that spending time with my friend is more enjoyable than my wife. I do know that other Iranian people have similar orientation if they are religious and did not have boy/girl friend in the past.

I personally support women who work in companies with Hijab. It's some sort of advertisement and creates a good picture of Islam.

About your idea on desi people, I think it's true to some of them. I also have this feeling towards them but not all. I asked my friend who is Indian: "do you like to support your wife financially if she wants to be house wife?" He said NO. That was surprising to me. He said she needs to work and earn money. I don't like supporting her financially. This is a non-muslim american culture. I saw some programs on TV that man was COMPLAINING that my wife doesn't work and I have to take care of all bills myself. Judge gave right to the man because in this culture with these rules, his words sound reasonable. My friend is not American at all. He was raised in India, but he is affected by this culture. How can I be sure that my future wife is not affected by some similar things(not particularly this example, any other western culture)? That is not acceptable to religion because even if woman works, man should give her Nafaghah. When I said cultural differences, I mainly meant this 50-50 culture that man and woman are both responsible and working.

Edited by AmirAlmuminin Lover

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This reminds of an old thread in which a member asked reverts if they had trouble adapting to Islam because in western culture,  parents teach their children to be evil, so they had to unlearn everything their were taught. 

This is one of the reasons that people oppose immigration from certain areas, because - and this is especially true of Muslims - they teach their children about how evil the 'West' is and how evil and twisted the people there are, so what hope is there of peaceful cohabitation when from the start the people have no interest in it.

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7 minutes ago, Ali_Hussain said:

This reminds of an old thread in which a member asked reverts if they had trouble adapting to Islam because in western culture,  parents teach their children to be evil, so they had to unlearn everything their were taught. 

This is one of the reasons that people oppose immigration from certain areas, because - and this is especially true of Muslims - they teach their children about how evil the 'West' is and how evil and twisted the people there are, so what hope is there of peaceful cohabitation when from the start the people have no interest in it.

I don't think anybody believes in what you said

Edited by AmirAlmuminin Lover

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14 minutes ago, Ali_Hussain said:

Well people such as yourself do, that's for sure.

Brother

It's not about which culture is good which is bad. I want to understand because I live west. I am single, so it's good to know tips.

I think you didn't read my post. You'll see that what you said is not in my comments at all. (BTW, if you know a Muslim convert, let me know :) )

Edited by AmirAlmuminin Lover

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Regarding dependence, even back in the days when females were more dependent on men it was problematic if things didn't go well (e.g., husband passes away). However, due to various reasons females didn't have the opportunity to establish independence as much back then. Now that women do have the opportunity to take more control over their own lives, they recognize that they can and should prevent the risk of losing everything in a relationship and being left with no support.

Yes you are right that in some areas of the world partners are more dependent on each and dependence will typically lead into a higher likelihood of remaining married. However, I would argue the success of a marriage should not be measured based on the longevity of the marriage but rather the quality of the marriage. Someone may stay in a marriage due to financial dependence, but I don't necessarily think staying in a marriage because of dependence is a good thing. In a marriage you can't control every factor, what if your partner for whatever reasons decides to step out of the marriage. I read a quote along the lines of, your career, education and money won't one day wake up and decide to leave you. Now of course I understand this quote is problematic, but nonetheless, women can still have a stack of degrees and become a house wife if they want, but at least they have a backup and potential for employment if things go wrong. With so many degrees available nowadays through different mediums (online, in class, etc) and so many areas to work in, you can study while being married (I'm assuming if you don't have kids and you're a housewife you probably have some free time). Contrary to popular belief, education of females (especially in academically prestigious fields) is being recognized more in some Eastern countries compared to many Western countries. In Iran, 70% of engineers are females, while in Canada only 13% of engineers are females.

I don't see how the female rejecting the guy who was not raised in the West is an issue. There are compatibility and cultural issues in western-eastern marriages. When individuals have very different upbringings it may be harder to get along and make mutual life decisions (e.g., raising kids). Naturally your upbringing affects your opinions, perspectives and life outlook. I would say even language is a barrier. For example, even though I'm bilingual I am more comfortable and have an easier time expressing myself and engaging in intellectual conversations in English rather than my mother tongue (which I fluently speak, write and read in). Majority of the females I know all unanimously agree they would not marry a guy raised in the East, at least, they highly prefer not to and are avoiding it. They all prefer to marry someone from a different nationality that's raised in the West than marry someone from the same nationality raised in the East. I know a couple girls in our community who married guys raised in the East and all of them were very firm with saying it is extremely difficult (they didn't regret it but they don't recommend it).  

When we criticize the independence of women in the West we often forget Khadija (as) was a successful business woman and very established prior to marrying the prophet. She was a divorcee who proposed marriage to the prophet. It's amazing how many cultural stereotypes the prophet's life breaks.

Edited by Inner Peace

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17 hours ago, Dhulfikar said:

^ Added to OP "some" western Muslims, to avoid generalization, because that was not the OP intention to generalize. And let's calm down please.

Salaam

It's not just about the original posting.  The subsequent posts are very offensive too. He didn't change his point until some of the brothers objected. This point should be noted.

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1 hour ago, Inner Peace said:

Regarding dependence, even back in the days when females were more dependent on men it was problematic if things didn't go well (e.g., husband passes away). However, due to various reasons females didn't have the opportunity to establish independence as much back then. Now that women do have the opportunity to take more control over their own lives, they recognize that they can and should prevent the risk of losing everything in a relationship and being left with no support.

Yes you are right that in some areas of the world partners are more dependent on each and dependence will typically lead into a higher likelihood of remaining married. However, I would argue the success of a marriage should not be measured based on the longevity of the marriage but rather the quality of the marriage. Someone may stay in a marriage due to financial dependence, but I don't necessarily think staying in a marriage because of dependence is a good thing. In a marriage you can't control every factor, what if your partner for whatever reasons decides to step out of the marriage. I read a quote along the lines of, your career, education and money won't one day wake up and decide to leave you. Now of course I understand this quote is problematic, but nonetheless, women can still have a stack of degrees and become a house wife if they want, but at least they have a backup and potential for employment if things go wrong. With so many degrees available nowadays through different mediums (online, in class, etc) and so many areas to work in, you can study while being married (I'm assuming if you don't have kids and you're a housewife you probably have some free time). Contrary to popular belief, education of females (especially in academically prestigious fields) is being recognized more in some Eastern countries compared to many Western countries. In Iran, 70% of engineers are females, while in Canada only 13% of engineers are females.

I don't see how the female rejecting the guy who was not raised in the West is an issue. There are compatibility and cultural issues in western-eastern marriages. When individuals have very different upbringings it may be harder to get along and make mutual life decisions (e.g., raising kids). Naturally your upbringing affects your opinions, perspectives and life outlook. I would say even language is a barrier. For example, even though I'm bilingual I am more comfortable and have an easier time expressing myself and engaging in intellectual conversations in English rather than my mother tongue (which I fluently speak, write and read in). Majority of the females I know all unanimously agree they would not marry a guy raised in the East, at least, they highly prefer not to and are avoiding it. They all prefer to marry someone from a different nationality that's raised in the West than marry someone from the same nationality raised in the East. I know a couple girls in our community who married guys raised in the East and all of them were very firm with saying it is extremely difficult (they didn't regret it but they don't recommend it).  

When we criticize the independence of women in the West we often forget Khadija (as) was a successful business woman and very established prior to marrying the prophet. She was a divorcee who proposed marriage to the prophet. It's amazing how many cultural stereotypes the prophet's life breaks.

What I realized you mainly focused on financial dependence when you talked about being independent. Man and woman can still be dependent on each other emotionally while they are both working. There are a lot of families who are working, but they text, call, and message each other various times during the work. This emotional dependence makes them closer to each other. I know a guy who liked a person. She told him:" You need a lot of attention, I can't handle it". This is a cultural issue. That guy was not in any relation with any girl his whole life. What would you think when he finally meets a girl? He only wants to spends time with her. That is obvious, but due to cultural issues that girl could not handle that even though she was housewife. I think working is not the issue. The issue is emotional dependence, or love, which is not that much intense among SOME western families.

 

Edited by AmirAlmuminin Lover

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5 hours ago, AmirAlmuminin Lover said:

I personally support women who work in companies with Hijab. It's some sort of advertisement and creates a good picture of Islam.

Man we should support all Muslim women regardless of the fact that they don't wear hijab. They go through different struggles and who are we to judge and say that they shouldn't work as a result. This mentality needs to stop. 

Edited by ali_fatheroforphans

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1 hour ago, AmirAlmuminin Lover said:

What I realized you mainly focused on financial dependence when you talked about being independent. Man and woman can still be dependent on each other emotionally while they are both working. There are a lot of families who are working, but they text, call, and message each other various times during the work. This emotional dependence makes them closer to each other. I know a guy who liked a person. She told him:" You need a lot of attention, I can't handle it". This is a cultural issue. That guy was not in any relation with any girl his whole life. What would you think when he finally meets a girl? He only wants to spends time with her. That is obvious, but due to cultural issues that girl could not handle that even though she was housewife. I think working is not the issue. The issue is emotional dependence, or love, which is not that much intense among SOME western families.

 

So I'm not sure based on what data you're suggesting that emotional dependence or love amongst partners in the East is more than the West? Where exactly are you getting this information that this is a western culture female issue?

That's a specific example but actually for the most part I'd say females want to spend more time with their partners and need more attention than vice versa. To my knowledge, this has been supported by studies, hence, the stereotypical term "clingy" is used usually for females. Generally what we know about female psychology conflicts your specific example, so the trend is not what you say necessarily. Regardless, emotional dependence is very individual and couple dependent. Some people are more independent emotionally and others aren't. Thus, why two good people may not be compatible with each other in marriage.

This is not evidenced supported but I actually think Western society can be more isolating (especially when you're Muslim) so it would logically make sense to turn to a spouse more. There's always something social happening in Eastern countries, if anything the men and women are socializing and spending time with other people that are not their partners more than in the West. 

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3 minutes ago, Inner Peace said:

but I actually think Western society can be more isolating (especially when you're Muslim) so it would logically make sense to turn to a spouse more.

I defs agree with you. I know back home we always had relatives coming over. However when we moved to Australia, both my parents got an opportunity to socialize more.

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43 minutes ago, Inner Peace said:

So I'm not sure based on what data you're suggesting that emotional dependence or love amongst partners in the East is more than the West? Where exactly are you getting this information that this is a western culture female issue?

That's a specific example but actually for the most part I'd say females want to spend more time with their partners and need more attention than vice versa. To my knowledge, this has been supported by studies, hence, the stereotypical term "clingy" is used usually for females. Generally what we know about female psychology conflicts your specific example, so the trend is not what you say necessarily. Regardless, emotional dependence is very individual and couple dependent. Some people are more independent emotionally and others aren't. Thus, why two good people may not be compatible with each other in marriage.

This is not evidenced supported but I actually think Western society can be more isolating (especially when you're Muslim) so it would logically make sense to turn to a spouse more. There's always something social happening in Eastern countries, if anything the men and women are socializing and spending time with other people that are not their partners more than in the West. 

Yeah, that is also a reason that in western countries muslim couples have more time to be with each other, so my statement may not be correct. I remember that you said 70% of engineers in Iran are females(I lived in Iran). Almost in every university, there are more males than females in engineering buildings. For example, in my undergraduate school number of males to females in one specific year was 100 to 9. This ratio changes in various schools and majors, but almost always males are more than females in engineering majors.

 

I am looking for an answer to the question of cultural issues. I couldn't find a good answer up to now.

Edited by AmirAlmuminin Lover

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5 minutes ago, AmirAlmuminin Lover said:

Yeah, that is also a reason that in western countries couples have more time to be with each other, so my statement may not be correct. I remember that you said 70% of engineers in Iran are females(I lived in Iran). Almost in every university, there are more males than females in engineering buildings. For example, in my undergraduate school number of males to females in one specific year was 100 to 9. This ratio changes in various schools and majors, but almost always males are more than females in engineering majors.

 

I am looking for an answer to the question of cultural issues. I couldn't find a good answer up to now.

That is a statistic I've read all over the internet. I haven't verified it myself but if you google it it'll come up everywhere. 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/amyguttman/2015/12/09/set-to-take-over-tech-70-of-irans-science-and-engineering-students-are-women/#461fd4e544de

However, I'm assuming the course ban in 2012, employment statistics and various announcements from university will discourage females continuing pursuing STEM fields in Iran.

"On 20 August 2012, an announcement was made by Iran's Ministry of Science, Research and Technology that 36 universities in Iran would be cutting 77 fields of study from the female curriculum, making them male-only fields. The fields chosen include most sciences and engineering, among others."

"The announcement came soon after the release of statistics showing that women were graduating in far higher numbers than men from Iranian universities and were scoring overall better than men, especially in the sciences."

Cultural issues regarding emotional independence of women in the West compared to the East? I don't think this is an actual cultural issue amongst Western women, if anything like I said I think Muslim women are more emotionally dependent than Eastern women are.

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46 minutes ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

I defs agree with you. I know back home we always had relatives coming over. However when we moved to Australia, both my parents got an opportunity to socialize more.

Yea, I never lived back home but that's been the case with most families I know too. Migration comes with so many difficulties that often give a couple experiences that help them with bonding.

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31 minutes ago, Inner Peace said:

That is a statistic I've read all over the internet. I haven't verified it myself but if you google it it'll come up everywhere. 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/amyguttman/2015/12/09/set-to-take-over-tech-70-of-irans-science-and-engineering-students-are-women/#461fd4e544de

However, I'm assuming the course ban in 2012, employment statistics and various announcements from university will discourage females continuing pursuing STEM fields in Iran.

"On 20 August 2012, an announcement was made by Iran's Ministry of Science, Research and Technology that 36 universities in Iran would be cutting 77 fields of study from the female curriculum, making them male-only fields. The fields chosen include most sciences and engineering, among others."

"The announcement came soon after the release of statistics showing that women were graduating in far higher numbers than men from Iranian universities and were scoring overall better than men, especially in the sciences."

Cultural issues regarding emotional independence of women in the West compared to the East? I don't think this is an actual cultural issue amongst Western women, if anything like I said I think Muslim women are more emotionally dependent than Eastern women are.

This statistics is absolutely wrong. I saw myself in Iran when I was there. I don't want to deviate this topic from its main point, but I checked FARSI websites that the percentage of women in engineering fields was %19 of the total engineering students which sounds reasonable to what I saw there.

I cannot trust info that you got from that survey. I never heard of banning women from entering university in some specific majors. FYI, western media tries to show middle eastern countries especially Iran as old fashioned, dated, and behind. They try everything to show this. It's not surprising to me to write a bunch of lies in their news.

Edited by AmirAlmuminin Lover

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16 hours ago, rkazmi33 said:

Housewives may be shamed by other women but if they are good at cooking and cleaning, they are very much appreciated by men. And in the male dominated culture, anyone who is popular among men holds the power, so it doesn't matter much  even if they are not very popular among other women.

When I say eastern men want to tame women, I don't mean making them more modest. Modesty is never their concern. It's only about cooking and cleaning skills. They want to teach all women how to cook and clean properly. My close friend was successful professionally, she was earning a lot of money but she was also hot-tempered. Then she got married, now she is a house-wife, she washes clothes with hands (in America) and she cooks roti at home (in America) and still she is daily compared with other women who are better at cooking and cleaning, she doesn't protest or say a word. This is what I mean by "taming" of a western woman, and many eastern men want to do this taming, I don't understand why don't they just get a submissive woman who is already good at cooking and cleaning. 

People keep telling me that you are generalizing based on your personal experience. I have observed hundreds of people in my extended family and also in my community. If all of the men act like that, am I wrong in making an assumption that all men are like this? I will agree with you that desi community is like this and unfortunately my only close interaction is with desi community. I have interacted with non-muslim men only in professional settings but I don't have any non-muslim friends, so I don't really know what goes on inside their houses. But Yes, all the desi people I have dealt with are like this.

 Women can be modest even if they are successful professionally and house wives can have affairs while sitting at home. House-wives don't remain in a segregated environment. Eastern people are very social, men and women visit each other's houses frequently and interact with each other all the time. Many eastern people live in joint family systems and I don't see how living in a joint family system is different than working with men. 

Feminists typically use terms like "male-dominated culture" so I just wanted to ask if you are a feminist. Also patriarchy is not inherently bad. No matter how you look at it Islam promotes a form of a patriarchal society. So just so you know. However I am not defending the patriarchy of Desi culture. Which is what we are talking about. I am advocating the patriarchy of an Ideal Shia Islamic social society (Yes these have existed historically to various extents). 

 

Also I have seen housewives who can cook a mean paratta and clean well and still they are degraded by not only other women but by men, who tend to gravitate towards free-loving women. They are not appreciated by men as well. I am talking of the West, so I will let others respond on how accurate your statements are about the east. Something tells me you are still projecting and exaggerating. 

 

Again, when you use the word "men" you are referring to a specific type of men. So don't generalize like the OP did. Also modesty is also a concern as well. I have seen this and I can give anecdotes as well to prove this. But let us not play the anecdote game. You would be surprised what western Muslim women, especially in college, get up to. So let us not pretend Muslim women are angels. Remember, for every Muslims man who fornicates there is often times another Muslim woman willing to do it with them. So don't think it is a "guy" issue, it is also a gal issue as well. Also there may be more reasons than the ones you and I listed too as to why an eastern man wants to marry a western woman, but it has everything to do with the guy trying to "make-up" for his guilty conscious and it may manifest in ways such as he thinking he can make it up by having his wife cook and clean (in a weird and twisted way, after all humans are psychologically complex creatures). But your cynical explanation makes it sound is as if Muslimah are dainty little flowers who earn money through a job and when they get married their hubby goes all Hollywood mustache twirling villain on them, or goes Ape on them out of nowhere. This is an incredibly naive and biased analysis and only ends up creating more questions rather than answering them.  

 

Also you just answered your question. Replace men with "cultural Desi men". But you saying "men" is generalizing and I can also name "hundreds of examples" that run counter to yours. As can anyone here. No one here is defending Desi (primarily hindu influenced culture). But you seem to think we are.

 

On a tangential note Muslims nowadays are willing to blame Islam rather than Hindus for the defiencies that are present in Desi culture. Despite the fact that most of the deleterious behaviors of Desi culture had its origins in ancient Hindu culture that ancient Muslims picked up on. "Purdah" is a famous example of something that quite likely originated amongst  and was widely propagated  by Hindu culture and that Muslims adopted as well but tend to confuse with Islam in incorrect ways (the state of the prophets wives was not the same of a random Muslim woman back then and now,  most scholars agree on this). 

 

Also you went on a tangent about working and being modest. Read my first post on the topic to know that Muslim women ALWAYS worked for 1400+ years in some job or another but had time for their family and household responsibilities. Even Umar Ibn al Khattab of all people hired a woman as "head of market operations ".  And above all else these Muslim women only thought of their job as a job and never let their job or income define them. I don't care if you earn money or not. You are not special or free or liberated or any other adjective you can name. And historically Muslim women used to be doctors way back even in the 1000s but never used to let their career define them. Except that they heal people. But modern day feminism does define a womans worth by her income and somehow she is "not tame" because she earns money. That is laughable. Sister "notme" did a good job of explaining the problem with people like you and your motivations to work. 

Edited by Guest Account Ali

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23 hours ago, rkazmi33 said:

Housewives may be shamed by other women but if they are good at cooking and cleaning, they are very much appreciated by men. And in the male dominated culture, anyone who is popular among men holds the power, so it doesn't matter much  even if they are not very popular among other women.

When I say eastern men want to tame women, I don't mean making them more modest. Modesty is never their concern. It's only about cooking and cleaning skills. They want to teach all women how to cook and clean properly. My close friend was successful professionally, she was earning a lot of money but she was also hot-tempered. Then she got married, now she is a house-wife, she washes clothes with hands (in America) and she cooks roti at home (in America) and still she is daily compared with other women who are better at cooking and cleaning, she doesn't protest or say a word. This is what I mean by "taming" of a western woman, and many eastern men want to do this taming, I don't understand why don't they just get a submissive woman who is already good at cooking and cleaning. 

People keep telling me that you are generalizing based on your personal experience. I have observed hundreds of people in my extended family and also in my community. If all of the men act like that, am I wrong in making an assumption that all men are like this? I will agree with you that desi community is like this and unfortunately my only close interaction is with desi community. I have interacted with non-muslim men only in professional settings but I don't have any non-muslim friends, so I don't really know what goes on inside their houses. But Yes, all the desi people I have dealt with are like this.

 Women can be modest even if they are successful professionally and house wives can have affairs while sitting at home. House-wives don't remain in a segregated environment. Eastern people are very social, men and women visit each other's houses frequently and interact with each other all the time. Many eastern people live in joint family systems and I don't see how living in a joint family system is different than working with men. 

By the way, do you have any good experience (I don't mean you took a certain module or class in medical school on behavioral health but then became a professional in an unrelated field like cardiology or something like that) or are involved in the behavioral health field? If so then I don't need to lecture you on the fact  that cases like abuse or forcing a certain lifestyle on someone (ironically sometimes there is consent from the other party on the new lifestyle being pushed on them) are not things that spontaneously occur and often times have complex psychological variables behind them.

 

Your anecdotes may suggest otherwise, but I know of anecdotes where on the surface it appeared that the man was "forcing" his wife to become a housewife and abandon her career. Since from the perspective of some but not all feminist Muslim women they cannot believe that a woman is willing to give up on a career and become a housewife, so they resort to calling the hubby oppressive and insist he is forcing something on his wife. But in the cases I know of if you look more closely without any bias it was evident that there was a decent amount of willing consent on the wife's part and the "force" element was not really there and at most the hubby acted "suggestive" but the whole decision to abandon her career was largely the wife's decision regardless. 

 

And heck even sometimes just as how a husband might backbite his wife to his community and friends to gain their sympathies due to him being sick of his wife, sometimes the same thing can occur in reverse if the wife feels she will gain some genuine sympathy.

 

Even if a person is your best friend and you visit her house every weekend there are things that you don't know and may not ever know about her marital relationship and that knowing these things may change the picture completely. So I would advise to not rush to hasty conclusions. That is not to say that there are not genuine cases of abuse and force in marital relationships, but that there is no greater epidemic of it due to complexities in relationships. Again, if you are involved or have good experience in the field of behavioral health then I don't think I need to tell you this. 

Edited by Guest Account Ali

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