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Langar

I don't believe in Free Will

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1 hour ago, Langar said:

 

Bro is a khanom actually.

 

We've been programmed a certain way, we will never choose anything other than what we were going to choose, and our choices are all determined by past actions and external influences. You are never truly "free".

The issue I have is mostly a technical one. I understand the points that have been raised, but my point is we throw around the term "Free Will" without understanding the meaning behind Free and Will.

We need to rename this phenomenon.

Khanom, you are confusing capability with free will. We have free will within our capabilities such as we humans cannot become bird but we can choose in the domain of humanity what to choose whether we should choose right or wrong. The restriction of being human, actually defines that someone is stopping us from being bird right and who is that ? It is God. Your choice to choose actions is degree of freedom within human domain and for it you should be thankful to God. However, if you want to choose at your will, you have to choose between two ways namely: Either you be stronger than God and if that's not possible do what God says you to do and with His will you will be able to do what you want to do but remember what you want to do should not be what God dislikes.

You are right that you cannot escape God, that is what God has said in the Quran: "Try as hard as you can but you cannot escape from me". 

 

Edited by Sindbad05

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1 minute ago, Sindbad05 said:

Khanom, you are confusing capability with free will. We have free will within our capabilities such as we humans cannot become bird but we can choose in the domain of humanity what to choose whether we should choose right or wrong. The restriction of being human, actually defines that someone is stopping us from being bird right and who is that ? It is God. Your choice to choose actions is degree of freedom for in your domain and for it you should be thankful to God. However, if you want to choose at your will, you have to choose between two ways namely: Either you be stronger than God and if that's not possible do what God says you to do and with His will you will be able to do what you want to do but remember what you want to do should not be what God dislikes.

You are right that you cannot escape God, that is what God has said in the Quran: "Try as hard as you can but you cannot escape from me". 

 

We have no choice but to choose, but what we choose we don't have a choice in.

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Just now, Langar said:

We have no choice but to choose, but what we choose we don't have a choice in.

We have choice to do and we have choice not to do what we choose to do before we do it.....However, after we choose it and choose to execute it, it means we have chosen it's consequence as well and then there is no escape. 

I agree with you that there is no choice in the consequence

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5 hours ago, Langar said:

 

Bro is a khanom actually.

 

We've been programmed a certain way, we will never choose anything other than what we were going to choose, and our choices are all determined by past actions and external influences. You are never truly "free".

The issue I have is mostly a technical one. I understand the points that have been raised, but my point is we throw around the term "Free Will" without understanding the meaning behind Free and Will.

We need to rename this phenomenon.

Brother that is what called free will. Your all all actions depends on knowledge and past experiences. you won't choose wrong options if your past experience had giving negative results by opting a given options. I mean your free to choose correct option not forced opt mistakes of. This correcting of options from mistake of past  and knowledge  is because of your free will. 

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19 hours ago, Langar said:

Recently, this discussion has been reopened for me and I'm not quite convinced that we have "Free will".

I agree with that, I don't believe we have free will.

In a Non Religious scenario( An Omniscient creator God does not exist) the term 'Free will' is nonsensical for the following  reasons:

We do not choose our feelings, desires, tastes, genes, environments, parents, family and relatives, tribe/clan, native language, upbringing, and son and so forth;  everything has already been decided for us.

We each have about as much knowledge of what we are about to think next as we do of what someone else would think. We are not the author of our own thoughts. That is, we don't pick our next thought. 

Can you decide to stop yourself thinking, can you choose which thoughts to summon for analysis or decide what to think?
Schopenhauer famously wrote:
Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills. 
He makes a distinction between freedom of acting (which he endorses) and freedom of willing (which he refutes). 

Our 'willing' is slave to desires over which we have little control; we cannot will what we will. Yes you are free to do whatever you desire. But you are not free to choose your desires.

In essence, man's desires are not predicated on careful calculation; rather, they are innate. The "heart of man" is autonomous and fickle. Our urges are genetically encoded, rooted in the subconscious and not subject to the whims (desires) of the conscious mind. 

 

In a Religious scenario ( A creator God does exist) Free will is impossible for the following reasons:

The corner stone of Religious theology is the 'Principle of Sufficient Reason' : everything that exists exists for a reason and that reason is God.

Everything in existence is tied to God through a network of causes (an unbroken chain of cause-and-effect), so we can only do what he designed us to do, essentially making us nothing more than conscious puppets.

If everything that exists has a ‘reason’ for its existence and the source of that reason is ‘random chance’ then we do have some free will.
But if the source of that ‘reason’ is God then we have no free will. 

God knows our present and our future, it is therefore impossible to do other than what God knows we will do.

If it were possible  it would negate the " omniscience / infallibility" of God.

wslm.

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4 hours ago, Quisant said:

I agree with that, I don't believe we have free will.

In a Non Religious scenario( An Omniscient creator God does not exist) the term 'Free will' is nonsensical for the following  reasons:

We do not choose our feelings, desires, tastes, genes, environments, parents, family and relatives, tribe/clan, native language, upbringing, and son and so forth;  everything has already been decided for us.

We each have about as much knowledge of what we are about to think next as we do of what someone else would think. We are not the author of our own thoughts. That is, we don't pick our next thought. 

Can you decide to stop yourself thinking, can you choose which thoughts to summon for analysis or decide what to think?
Schopenhauer famously wrote:
Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills. 
He makes a distinction between freedom of acting (which he endorses) and freedom of willing (which he refutes). 

Our 'willing' is slave to desires over which we have little control; we cannot will what we will. Yes you are free to do whatever you desire. But you are not free to choose your desires.

In essence, man's desires are not predicated on careful calculation; rather, they are innate. The "heart of man" is autonomous and fickle. Our urges are genetically encoded, rooted in the subconscious and not subject to the whims (desires) of the conscious mind. 

 

In a Religious scenario ( A creator God does exist) Free will is impossible for the following reasons:

The corner stone of Religious theology is the 'Principle of Sufficient Reason' : everything that exists exists for a reason and that reason is God.

Everything in existence is tied to God through a network of causes (an unbroken chain of cause-and-effect), so we can only do what he designed us to do, essentially making us nothing more than conscious puppets.

If everything that exists has a ‘reason’ for its existence and the source of that reason is ‘random chance’ then we do have some free will.
But if the source of that ‘reason’ is God then we have no free will. 

God knows our present and our future, it is therefore impossible to do other than what God knows we will do.

If it were possible  it would negate the " omniscience / infallibility" of God.

wslm.

*

Next time you take a Exam/Test. Offer the following

1) its evil- there is evil embedded in it. ( wrong answers in multiple choice are Evil).

2) Since the Teacher knows all the possible answers ( A, B, C, D) one is Good and three are Wrong( Evil). S/he knows the outcome, s/he already knows what you will do , so its not a fair system. so you will not be participating in it. Hence its a failed system. See how far you go will these excuses, in the real world. 

Time/Space and past/present/future only exits for you. It will benefit you to use your limited mind to better understand you and your surrounding, instead of playing god. 

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46 minutes ago, S.M.H.A. said:

Next time you take a Exam/Test. Offer the following

1) its evil- there is evil embedded in it. ( wrong answers in multiple choice are Evil).

2) Since the Teacher knows all the possible answers ( A, B, C, D) one is Good and three are Wrong( Evil). S/he knows the outcome, s/he already knows what you will do , so its not a fair system. so you will not be participating in it. Hence its a failed system. See how far you go will these excuses, in the real world. 

Time/Space and past/present/future only exits for you. It will benefit you to use your limited mind to better understand you and your surrounding, instead of playing god. 

I still and always will regard your posts as the peak of utter irrelevance.

You needn't fear, you still hold the crown. Where did you learn such refined levels of Jabberwocky? 

:)

 

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Next time you get a speeding ticket. Blame it on the system, that has Evil( Speeding Ticket) embedded in it. Lawmakers created this Evil( of speeding over the limit).

Tell the Judge, since the system already knows the outcome. You are not responsible for it. Its the systems fault.

Edited by S.M.H.A.

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34 minutes ago, S.M.H.A. said:

Next time you get a speeding ticket. Blame it on the system, that has Evil( Speeding Ticket) embedded in it. Lawmakers created this Evil( of speeding over the limit).

Tell the Judge, since the system already knows the outcome. You are not responsible for it. Its the systems fault.

More unconnected, unrelated, peripheral, extraneous, immaterial posting... but great stuff ! 

Speeding tickets and Judges now !    Real alert thinking on your part.   Keep them coming

A recruit was asked by a training instructor, "Give me an example of how to fool the enemy." 
The recruit answered, "When you are out of ammunition, don't let the enemy know -- keep on firing!" 
(Idries Shah)

*

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"Man is an animal with two legs, his one step is forwarded according to predestination and he takes another step according to his will.. Your DNA had decided that what will be your eye or hair color, your height also! Its your predestination! And what is added to your hairs,its colour and height with make up and high heels is your Will!

Predestination is clay soil, some makes bricks from it,some make vessels, some implant tube roses in it"

ASHFAQ AHMED

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12 hours ago, Quisant said:

More unconnected, unrelated, peripheral, extraneous, immaterial posting... but great stuff ! 

Speeding tickets and Judges now !    Real alert thinking on your part.   Keep them coming

A recruit was asked by a training instructor, "Give me an example of how to fool the enemy." 
The recruit answered, "When you are out of ammunition, don't let the enemy know -- keep on firing!" 
(Idries Shah)

*

Maybe you can offer the following to the judge.

Look i am just a driver, the automobile which i was driving has a speedometer which does not confie to your laws of 60 mph in that particular speed zone. So, it the fault of the manufacturer of the automobile that they put this Evil temptation in me. Why did they design it this way to produce Evil? It's their fault.

Another angle could be the, your uncontrollable desires. Your desires were not taken into account. If  the manufacturer would do the prudent thing and dictate the speed. Not leave it up to you.

Now you have the case against the manufacturer of the automobile and the law makers. You can alo throw in the desire and seeding gene theory - I think you may have a case in the worldly/ secular court?

If the judge subscribe to the same “ I am entitled”  and I need to "deflect to other source" I do not have any accountability" mentality. You might have a case here...

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