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On 08/11/2017 at 10:51 AM, ZephyrintheEast said:

Over the past few years I've had the opportunity to meet people from a multitude of backgrounds and diverse schools of thought and I was shocked by how fragile the structural integrity of my beliefs was. Everything that I've ever known was challenged, and I started to question the very nature of my existence.

You need not have been shocked. It's quite common.

On 08/11/2017 at 10:51 AM, ZephyrintheEast said:

Now of course one could blame it on my upbringing, maybe I didn't attend enough lectures or didn't pray hard enough. It's possible, but I urge you to approach this topic pragmatically and with an open mind. 

I doubt attending more lectures would have helped much. As for praying harder, what exactly should you have prayed for? To not be exposed to alternative viewpoints?

On 08/11/2017 at 10:51 AM, ZephyrintheEast said:

Have you ever considered that there is no God and we're really the consequence of...coincidence? A magnificent one on a celestial scale, but a coincidence nonetheless?

Since it's the prevailing view in the Western world, you would need to really go out of your way not to consider it.

On 08/11/2017 at 10:51 AM, ZephyrintheEast said:

There way as well may be infinite multiverse a out there, is it really that special to have life spring up on the tiniest of planets in the tiniest of solar systems in some so and so galaxy?

Woah there. 'There may well be'? You make it sound like there is some kind of evidence for this, when the reality is that this theory exists solely because otherwise the chances of things working out in our universe the way they do are so incredibly remote that it looks like a miracle. There is zero evidence for any other universe other than our own, and your question is basically backwards. It's not the fact that there are an infinite number of universes that make life so mundane (there is no evidence for the premise of this statement), rather it's the miraculous existence of life that almost necessitates inventing this purported infinitude of universes in order to keep up the pretence that life is due to random chance.

On 08/11/2017 at 10:51 AM, ZephyrintheEast said:

And if we're to put aside the sheer awesomeness of the world for a minute, what really is there to compel a belief in a God? 

There are many reasons. One of which being the fact that life loses all meaning without God. My belief is that all of us recognise deep down that God exists, and Islam is simply a reminder of this. When we choose to not believe in God, we have to suppress this knowledge of God.

On 08/11/2017 at 10:51 AM, ZephyrintheEast said:

Many of us claim that God has a destiny for us, and there's a grand plan. Things have a way of working out in the end, don't they? But what if that's all just the human mind trying to rationalize the unexplainable, or attempting to live with the fact that ultimately nothing is under its control? Haven't there been countless events in history where powerful folk used religion for political agendas such as conquer and control? Hell, some religions were born from purely those motives. 

I'm not sure how this is overly relevant. The fact that there are false religions, or that people use religion for nefarious purposes doesn't invalidate the existence of a true religion.

On 08/11/2017 at 10:51 AM, ZephyrintheEast said:
Gods all around the world have similar attributes and godly stories similar themes, and I feel like the differences in belief systems only reflect the differences in circumstances, geography, history etc. The Sumerians in ancient Mesopotamia believed  in Gilgamesh's Epic (origins of Noah's Ark story, some say) because their livelihood depends so deeply on the rise and recede of the Tigris and Euphrates.
 
The Roman Empire eventually adopted Christianity because it was better suited for its imperialistic needs. The point is, each society in history had molded the concepts of a higher deity(ies) as was needed by the people of its time. 

Or maybe all these attributes are similar because they stem from the same origin, and that deep down everyone has that innate knowledge of God imprinted on our souls? 

As for the Romans adopting Christianity because it better suited their imperialistic needs, I'd be really interested in seeing some evidence for that. It seems to me that they did much better under their pagan religion than they did under Christianity.

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On 11/8/2017 at 10:51 AM, ZephyrintheEast said:

There way as well may be infinite multiverse a out there, is it really that special to have life spring up on the tiniest of planets in the tiniest of solar systems in some so and so galaxy

You could have an infinite multiverse, that produces an infinite number of worlds, all of which are not life permitting.  For a multiverse to be able to produce life permitting universes, it has to be fine-tuned.  So the possibility of a multiverse does no refute the fine-tuning argument.

It also doesnt explain the fine tuning of the world for discovery:

 

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On 11/8/2017 at 5:51 AM, ZephyrintheEast said:

Salam and hello everyone,

I apologize from the get go if this sounds like a Tumblr post but I genuinely want to hear from other Shiachat lurkers regarding the titular question.
 
Over the past few years I've had the opportunity to meet people from a multitude of backgrounds and diverse schools of thought and I was shocked by how fragile the structural integrity of my beliefs was. Everything that I've ever known was challenged, and I started to question the very nature of my existence.
Now of course one could blame it on my upbringing, maybe I didn't attend enough lectures or didn't pray hard enough. It's possible, but I urge you to approach this topic pragmatically and with an open mind. 
 
Have you ever considered that there is no God and we're really the consequence of...coincidence? A magnificent one on a celestial scale, but a coincidence nonetheless? There way as well may be infinite multiverse a out there, is it really that special to have life spring up on the tiniest of planets in the tiniest of solar systems in some so and so galaxy? And if we're to put aside the sheer awesomeness of the world for a minute, what really is there to compel a belief in a God? 
 
Many of us claim that God has a destiny for us, and there's a grand plan. Things have a way of working out in the end, don't they? But what if that's all just the human mind trying to rationalize the unexplainable, or attempting to live with the fact that ultimately nothing is under its control? Haven't there been countless events in history where powerful folk used religion for political agendas such as conquer and control? Hell, some religions were born from purely those motives. 
 
Gods all around the world have similar attributes and godly stories similar themes, and I feel like the differences in belief systems only reflect the differences in circumstances, geography, history etc. The Sumerians in ancient Mesopotamia believed  in Gilgamesh's Epic (origins of Noah's Ark story, some say) because their livelihood depends so deeply on the rise and recede of the Tigris and Euphrates. The Roman Empire eventually adopted Christianity because it was better suited for its imperialistic needs. The point is, each society in history had molded the concepts of a higher deity(ies) as was needed by the people of its time. 
 
Too many times I've seen Muslims poking fun at say, Hindus, for having one too many gods, but I'm a little tired of my brethren walking around like it's their birthright to walk straight into Heaven. Why should you be any more proud to be a Muslim than if you're proud to be tall or have ten fingers? 
 
The only reason I haven't completely abandoned the idea of a God is because I don't understand death. It certainly makes it easier to fathom my inevitable doom by thinking that we have a purpose. I want to, nay, I need to believe in a grand scheme if I'm to live my life not in a state of a constant existential crisis.
 
Who's to say anyone of us is right? 

You have not responded. I am assuming that you are either very busy, or a very shy person. Or feel entitled to the answers or else. 

Any case. I am a layman, so I read and try to understand it for my own benefit. I do not have the ability to answer your questions, I reflect and post my assessments for review and critique.  Most of the time, I will not address it directly, as stated before, do not have the ability to answer. So, mostly,  I like to first look at the basic concepts, most of the time problem is with the basic knowledge or assumptions. 

As stated before, it is a general misconception that we know everything about this particular System/Universe. 

Quote

But stars and galaxies do not tell the whole story. Astronomical and physical calculations suggest that the visible universe is only a tiny amount (4%) of what the universe is actually made of. A very large fraction of the universe, in fact 26%, is made of an unknown type of matter called "dark matter". Unlike stars and galaxies, dark matter does not emit any light or electromagnetic radiation of any kind, so that we can detect it only through its gravitational effects. 

An even more mysterious form of energy called “dark energy” accounts for about 70% of the mass-energy content of the universe. Even less is known about it than dark matter. This idea stems from the observation that all galaxies seems to be receding from each other at an accelerating pace, implying that some invisible extra energy is at work.

https://home.cern/about/physics/early-universe

Quote

Why is gravity so much weaker than the other fundamental forces? A small fridge magnet is enough to create an electromagnetic force greater than the gravitational pull exerted by planet Earth. One possibility is that we don’t feel the full effect of gravity  because part of it spreads to extra dimensions. Though it may sound like science fiction, if extra dimensions exist, they could explain why the universe is expanding faster than expected, and why gravity is weaker than the other forces of nature.

https://home.cern/about/physics/extra-dimensions-gravitons-and-tiny-black-holes

Quote

The entire Universe is made up of particles. But where do they come from? What laws govern their behaviour? The purpose of the "Universe of particles" exhibition is for visitors to confront the great questions of contemporary physics, currently being explored by the CERN 

https://visit.cern/exhibitions/universe-particles

Based on above, we know very little about the System/Universe we are in - In this universe, we are a tiny rock, out of the 100 billion objects in our milky way, which is one of the 100 billion plus out there in one System/Universe.

So, Multiverse Theory is non consequential here. Someone may have just added/burdened  that extra layer of Proof on you to submit /believe his/her highly/fool proof thesis. Its just a theory.....May have value but not in the context you were sold on.

As pointed by others, Fine tuning of your package and what's around you - can't be denied by any intelligent person. 

You did not create yourself, nor you have the ability to create or control your self and what's around you- This fact indicates to an intelligient person that he/she in not Creator/Control/Sustainer of your self or what is around you. ( Air, Water, Soil, Earth, Sun, Moon).

You are helpless in front of Nature. 

This would indicate that There is a System, that you are a product of. You may say, that this Earth, Sun, Moon Air, Water land, all are part of the Support system. Which is beyond your control, Your own Physical body is beyond your own control( in a way) breathing, is automatic etc..

So, no intelligent person will deny, his/her worth as a product of the System and controlled by the System, and not having any control over the System. ie. Subservient to it. 

What you call that System is not important at this point. But there are forces, beyond your control not were created by you. You are Subservient to it. 

What conclusion will you reach based on above?

Atheist have a canny ability to mix many concepts and confuse people. Some are our own faults. Look we look for a easy way out, and to have fun. So, we will not scrutinize what we like to believe as it works for us. No god- no accountability- fun fun and more fun...who wants to investigate, hold the so called scientists or scientific news to the same level of investigation when we are been offered a way out. Use general  terms and we are home free. 

Death, - depend on hoe  you define it .

We are part of million in a fluid in our fathers body. I am sure you do not define us leaving that temporary realm as death. nor do we define, us interacting with an egg in our mothers body as annihilation of the original in a complete sense. It and the egg (two independent entities-) passed to another  stage, and finally we do not call Childbirth into this world from the mothers body as death. So, based on facts and past procedure/methods/obersvations/mechanic that are undeniable.

What do you think happens to this physical body in this realm. Is it been groomed for the next stage like the sperm, egg, baby on the womb. Mothers womb was a complete system, to support us in that realm.

Is this earth our new womb ?  So, what is been developed here, something physical or something beyond that? Would you call it dead and annihilation of us, once our  physical parts go six feet under- is it the end of the process?  Provide proof. why would people who hail discovery and methods to prove something or will not us this as a undeniable proof for an argument that there must be a next stage? 

Next Stage is undeniable based on proof/method/mechanics/observation of systems - what that is not important at this point.

Fact that based on observation, we can conclude the next stage is undeniable.

 

Edited by S.M.H.A.

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On 11/8/2017 at 5:51 AM, ZephyrintheEast said:

 

Over the past few years I've had the opportunity to meet people from a multitude of backgrounds and diverse schools of thought and I was shocked by how fragile the structural integrity of my beliefs was. Everything that I've ever known was challenged, and I started to question the very nature of my existence.
 

Let’s look at it from purely empirical knowledge point of view. Study of plants, earth, human, celestial bodies which you will call in aggregate terms Science. Study/investigation/knowledge from observation. Basically, Discovery of what already exists at the very fundamental level,and we may mix and match these components we discover, to assemble( not create ) new products, enzymes, particles, energies or derive benefit from them. Again nothing is created, it's all assembly work, raw material is already provided, we discover /uncover and assemble.

For argument sake. Let's not argue with the theory or descent with modification aka evolution. We are here and this partial knowledge tells us that only strong, well fit, adaptable service. Survival of the fittest, or the best adaptable.

 

(Survival of the fittest, and best adaptable need an Overall  guidance system otherwise the impact/effects can be damaging to self or society - We will leave this part of the argument for another time)

Let's look at the proponent's this theory, and see  if their are really advancing this theory for the purpose of the benefit if the humanity or their is another purpose. Implementation of this knowledge that we have acquired will tell us the real motive.

The people you met, who enlightened you to the new realities. See what is their real purpose and effort behind this dawah/invitation of their way of life.

If we were to look at it from this perspective, the following facts can’t be denied.

No alternative lifestyle

Perfect health

No Substance abuse( alcohol, drugs)

No crime/jail terms

No diseases of all kinds acquired/transmitted or through unhealthy food consumption.

Perfect psychological health.

Procreation- Prime directive.( All activities must support this Prime directive)

Protection of what we procreate

See it comes to fruition and next procreation cycle

In a secular sense, what above means is that you are to live in accordance with the knowledge you have gained through discovery(Science) .

Priority is to Procreate- You need perfect physical, emotional and psychological state, no crimes that may lend you in jail, no activity that may result in you acquiring a deadly transmitted disease. Finding a pure/loyal partner with the same qualities, to procreate. Ensure that it's your generation. No outside stuff happening.

Once you procreate, need to provide best quality food, no fast food stuff which just fills the pockets of the corporation and later doctors. Pharmacists and drug companies and lawyers. Providing the best home environment, means you and your partner are dedicated/loyal  to each others, in case of a divorce( we know the harmful effects), ones you procreated will not be in perfect Conditions( All conditions as highlighted above). Ensuring that they get to stay out of jail, find pure healthy partners etc…..( same stuff that you need to avoid)

Tell, me the ones marketing no god theory, believe in Discovery( science( subset of knowledge) are the selling you a smoke screen or are they true to their findings( Knowledge that has come to them through efforts). ?

You can’t avoid Rules and regulations and best practices even if you were to follow what is been marketed. Which is not practiced, just marketed. No fun, the type of fun, enticement that is offered that  may make one to  leave other belief system. As this system curtails all inappropriate behaviour, to be able to procreate. No alternative lifestyle as it defeats the purpose of this theory, it end the survival.

So, what are we really, looking at here?

Total anarchy, rebellion, even against the Knowledge that has come to us through out efforts observing “us” and what’s around us.

What systems is been marketed in reality?

No accountability. Even under the Discovery method. I just want to do what i want and feel like, I am not worried about any consequences. I want to live for a the moment. Instant satisfaction/gratification.

I will offer any excuse to avoid responsibility and accountability. This is what i see at the core of this  new Religion of individualism. So, i see these efforts to offer, scientific excuses as a smoke screen, as they are not even supported by their constitution.  It's just convenient to offer Current Knowledge and half baked/fairytales/theories to deflect.

Because based on current knowledge, they would be very close to the system they are trying  to negate.

I would not pay attention to acronyms, terminology, philosophical riddles or high wire acts.

Dissect, disintegrate, dissect, break it down to the lowest level/fundamental level terminology  the argument and see what lies at the core if the issue. We do not need Phds to understand this basic simple stuff.

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On 11/8/2017 at 5:51 AM, ZephyrintheEast said:

 

Many of us claim that God has a destiny for us, and there's a grand plan. Things have a way of working out in the end, don't they? But what if that's all just the human mind trying to rationalize the unexplainable, or attempting to live with the fact that ultimately nothing is under its control? Haven't there been countless events in history where powerful folk used religion for political agendas such as conquer and control? Hell, some religions were born from purely those motives. 
 
Gods all around the world have similar attributes and godly stories similar themes, and I feel like the differences in belief systems only reflect the differences in circumstances, geography, history etc. The Sumerians in ancient Mesopotamia believed  in Gilgamesh's Epic (origins of Noah's Ark story, some say) because their livelihood depends so deeply on the rise and recede of the Tigris and Euphrates. The Roman Empire eventually adopted Christianity because it was better suited for its imperialistic needs. The point is, each society in history had molded the concepts of a higher deity(ies) as was needed by the people of its time. 
 

Your actions are in your control. that is what even he secular system judges you on, things that you control. Choices you make when you have two alternatives. One in conformity with the Law. and other is against it. You either stop at the stop sign ( which is the Law, The Absolute Will) or your speed through( Your will/choice) . The Absolute Will will prevail and you will have to pay for it, you are free to choose but here  are ( consequences) to your choice. 

*****

Capitalism, Communism, Freedomism, human rightism, economic, nationalism etc…

Whatever rallis the people it will be used, so i do not see your point. When European were religious, wars/crusades had a religious slogans, as they became secular, the slogans have changed to freedom, human rights etc….

Middle east is still religious, you can rally the people in the name of religion.

You can't do that in the secular countries, no one cares. Unless it hits their pocket/lifestyle( way of life- i.e Religion)You tell them national security(Nationalism, to preserve lifestyle) , or  you jobs are been taken, you will see a response….Oil/resource rich region/routes etc...

You could say, elite/powerful, utilized what was prevalent at that time, whatever will rally the troops. See an economic distress/downturn in a country, you can rally the masses to support , as their pockets are empty. To preserve their status/livelihood they  will support your outside endeavors….

WWI, WWII, one we are in Economic/proxy WWIII

Edited by S.M.H.A.

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