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Salam and hello everyone,

I apologize from the get go if this sounds like a Tumblr post but I genuinely want to hear from other Shiachat lurkers regarding the titular question.
 
Over the past few years I've had the opportunity to meet people from a multitude of backgrounds and diverse schools of thought and I was shocked by how fragile the structural integrity of my beliefs was. Everything that I've ever known was challenged, and I started to question the very nature of my existence.
Now of course one could blame it on my upbringing, maybe I didn't attend enough lectures or didn't pray hard enough. It's possible, but I urge you to approach this topic pragmatically and with an open mind. 
 
Have you ever considered that there is no God and we're really the consequence of...coincidence? A magnificent one on a celestial scale, but a coincidence nonetheless? There way as well may be infinite multiverse a out there, is it really that special to have life spring up on the tiniest of planets in the tiniest of solar systems in some so and so galaxy? And if we're to put aside the sheer awesomeness of the world for a minute, what really is there to compel a belief in a God? 
 
Many of us claim that God has a destiny for us, and there's a grand plan. Things have a way of working out in the end, don't they? But what if that's all just the human mind trying to rationalize the unexplainable, or attempting to live with the fact that ultimately nothing is under its control? Haven't there been countless events in history where powerful folk used religion for political agendas such as conquer and control? Hell, some religions were born from purely those motives. 
 
Gods all around the world have similar attributes and godly stories similar themes, and I feel like the differences in belief systems only reflect the differences in circumstances, geography, history etc. The Sumerians in ancient Mesopotamia believed  in Gilgamesh's Epic (origins of Noah's Ark story, some say) because their livelihood depends so deeply on the rise and recede of the Tigris and Euphrates. The Roman Empire eventually adopted Christianity because it was better suited for its imperialistic needs. The point is, each society in history had molded the concepts of a higher deity(ies) as was needed by the people of its time. 
 
Too many times I've seen Muslims poking fun at say, Hindus, for having one too many gods, but I'm a little tired of my brethren walking around like it's their birthright to walk straight into Heaven. Why should you be any more proud to be a Muslim than if you're proud to be tall or have ten fingers? 
 
The only reason I haven't completely abandoned the idea of a God is because I don't understand death. It certainly makes it easier to fathom my inevitable doom by thinking that we have a purpose. I want to, nay, I need to believe in a grand scheme if I'm to live my life not in a state of a constant existential crisis.
 
Who's to say anyone of us is right? 

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@ZephyrintheEast

First of all, let me clear for you how does coincidence works.....Coincidence occurs when there be two or more than two things in a system whose existence or accumulation in a particular place or in a particular situation may provide an effect which be regarded by an intellect as has caused change.....if there be one thing than coincidence does not works for example:- You and I are in this world and therefore it may happen that I and you meet one day by coincidence.....However, if you or I were not born, we could not have met right so coincidence would not have worked. Secondly, for coincidence to occur between two or more than two things which may be called as coincidence those both things should be separate and not one. Such as you and me are separate creations and therefore you and me met on this question by coincidence if you had been me or me have been you, we could not have coincidence to meet each other on this website and talk to each other. 

Result:

1. There should be two or more than two things for coincidence to occur.

2. Both should be separate.

Now, tell me who has maintained your independent personality and separated us both and held our bodies such that our shaking hands will not intermingle our hands to be indistinguishable from each of us ? That is God who is the creator of coincidence bro. I hope you realized his presence now. 

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2 hours ago, ZephyrintheEast said:

Salam and hello everyone,

I apologize from the get go if this sounds like a Tumblr post but I genuinely want to hear from other Shiachat lurkers regarding the titular question.
 
Over the past few years I've had the opportunity to meet people from a multitude of backgrounds and diverse schools of thought and I was shocked by how fragile the structural integrity of my beliefs was. Everything that I've ever known was challenged, and I started to question the very nature of my existence.
Now of course one could blame it on my upbringing, maybe I didn't attend enough lectures or didn't pray hard enough. It's possible, but I urge you to approach this topic pragmatically and with an open mind. 
 
Have you ever considered that there is no God and we're really the consequence of...coincidence? A magnificent one on a celestial scale, but a coincidence nonetheless? There way as well may be infinite multiverse a out there, is it really that special to have life spring up on the tiniest of planets in the tiniest of solar systems in some so and so galaxy? And if we're to put aside the sheer awesomeness of the world for a minute, what really is there to compel a belief in a God? 
 
Many of us claim that God has a destiny for us, and there's a grand plan. Things have a way of working out in the end, don't they? But what if that's all just the human mind trying to rationalize the unexplainable, or attempting to live with the fact that ultimately nothing is under its control? Haven't there been countless events in history where powerful folk used religion for political agendas such as conquer and control? Hell, some religions were born from purely those motives. 
 
Gods all around the world have similar attributes and godly stories similar themes, and I feel like the differences in belief systems only reflect the differences in circumstances, geography, history etc. The Sumerians in ancient Mesopotamia believed  in Gilgamesh's Epic (origins of Noah's Ark story, some say) because their livelihood depends so deeply on the rise and recede of the Tigris and Euphrates. The Roman Empire eventually adopted Christianity because it was better suited for its imperialistic needs. The point is, each society in history had molded the concepts of a higher deity(ies) as was needed by the people of its time. 
 
Too many times I've seen Muslims poking fun at say, Hindus, for having one too many gods, but I'm a little tired of my brethren walking around like it's their birthright to walk straight into Heaven. Why should you be any more proud to be a Muslim than if you're proud to be tall or have ten fingers? 
 
The only reason I haven't completely abandoned the idea of a God is because I don't understand death. It certainly makes it easier to fathom my inevitable doom by thinking that we have a purpose. I want to, nay, I need to believe in a grand scheme if I'm to live my life not in a state of a constant existential crisis.
 
Who's to say anyone of us is right? 

As we have not seen(understand is a different story) one universe, belief in Multiverse, is believing in the Unseen.

Let’s just assume for the argument sake, you and your immediate surrounding are the only reality. Somewhat Tangibles, don’t need an equation or a constant to fix a theory here.

Immediate surroundings Earth( and All the Life support mechanisms Air, water, Sun and the Moon.etc..)

So, You are here on this rock, let work with the By Chance theory,

Now what?

First question would be, There is a 50/50 chance that you may or may not be here in next hour/day/week. So what should you be spending your time on, instead of posting /guiding here?

Let’s face it, if this is the only chance you have got, given what is available for fun, why would you not be involved in it. Why would you even care about anyone or anything other than yourself ? 

Why not Maximize  your limited time, potential and opportunity? 

If you like, think it through, and articulate  your business/happy plan for  life as you see it as a by chance entity?

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So DNA and everything else just.. invented itself? But why? Why did it bother? Why did scientific laws invent themselves and why none of them just change themselves out of randomness? Macro evolution is also bs, there are only a handful of missing links and most fossils needed are all missing. You, my friend, have met self deluding people of limited intellects.

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Forgive me and correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you've made your mind up.

There are several compelling arguments for the existence of God, life makes no sense without God and would be nothing but a game of hedonism where every means is fair game no matter how sadistic, where tyrants can die without facing punishment, and the severely disabled from birth who suffer for decades are not compensated. In such a hypothetical world, what's the problem with having wrong beliefs? At the end of the day, we're all essentially a large composition of chemicals, the behaviour of which is physically pre-determined , and my consciousness and free-will is an illusion, right?

There is no need to explain these arguments. Every individual of normal intellect who is honest with themself, who thinks about the world around them and considers the purpose of this life, will undoubtedly come to the conclusions that these arguments which challenge the existence of God are absurd, that God does exist, and that we are to seek guidance from God.

Yes, when you initially see all these questions and arguments against God, it can throw you off and make you question your beliefs, but truly scrutinise all these arguments and you realise they make as much sense as 1+1 = 7 (ie none).

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4 hours ago, ZephyrintheEast said:

 

 
Have you ever considered that there is no God and we're really the consequence of...coincidence? A magnificent one on a celestial scale, but a coincidence nonetheless?

First of all, you say that our presence is a coincidence or this world is a coincidence. I am the student of sciences and I sudied that earth was formed by "Big Bang" . Means the rection of particles in outer space with excessive heat in present of sun. Is sun also a coincidence?Is moon, stars the black color all other planets are coincidence.? And how every system in this world is perfect. I mean if all these things are coincidence then there should be some mishappenings in solar system or in rising and setting of sun.

Once Hazrat Ali were giving sermon on Allah as creator a man stood and said that there is no god. If the god you believe can create so I can create too. Hazrat Ali asked what can you create? can you create a living thing? he said yes I can. He said I created these worms. Hazrat Ali asked how. He said I took some soil and putted into this mud made bowl. then I poured some water and placed it under the sun. After few days the worms emerged from the soil. So Iam the creator of these worms not your god who you believe. Hazrat Ali smiled for a moment and asked him that  you used the soil right? He replied yes. Did you created the soil? He kept quite. Hazrat Ali continued that you put it under the sun right ? did you created the sun?Ok if you are creator clasiffy who can survive in water from these who can not. He said how can I? Hazrat Ali said you are the creator you should know. He kept quite with his head bowed. Hazrat Ali then classified.

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2 hours ago, ZephyrintheEast said:

Have you ever considered that there is no God and we're really the consequence of...coincidence? A magnificent one on a celestial scale, but a coincidence nonetheless? There way as well may be infinite multiverse a out there, is it really that special to have life spring up on the tiniest of planets in the tiniest of solar systems in some so and so galaxy? 

The world being a coincidence would be illogical. You don't look at a building, and since the creator of that building is not present in front of your eyes, decide the building was just a coincidence, do you? Likewise creation as a whole, must have a source. It's up to us to determine what/who that source is.

2 hours ago, ZephyrintheEast said:

And if we're to put aside the sheer awesomeness of the world for a minute, what really is there to compel a belief in a God? 

Ever heard of Pascal's wager?

https://www.al-islam.org/sv/node/11859

Quote

 

Common sense reckons the necessity of preventing this “possible harm”. What is more, these messengers and prophets call man to a healthy and civilized life, and they also say that after death an extensive new world and everlasting blessings await one who has performed his duty. Does reason allow us to ignore this important message?

* * *
There is a similar argument known as the “Pascal's Bet,” named so after the famous French mathematician, Pascal (d. 1662 CE). Pascal proved the importance of inquiring about religion in the following way:

If you believe in the life-hereafter, you will gain everything if it really exists; and you lose nothing if it does not exist. Therefore, it is better to bet that it does exist.

The theme of this argument was presented by the Shi‘a Imams long before Pascal. We also know that Pascal had read Abu Hāmid al-Ghazāli's works. It, therefore, seems quite possible that Pascal might have read this argument from Imam ‘Ali (a.s.), the first Shi‘a Imam, as quoted in Mizānu 'l-A`māl of al-Ghazāli. Imam ‘Ali said:

The astrologer and the physician both say, `The dead will never be resurrected.'
I say: `Keep your counsel. If your idea is correct, I will come to no harm;
but if my belief is correct, then you will surely lose.'

 

 

2 hours ago, ZephyrintheEast said:

But what if that's all just the human mind trying to rationalize the unexplainable, or attempting to live with the fact that ultimately nothing is under its control? Haven't there been countless events in history where powerful folk used religion for political agendas such as conquer and control? Hell, some religions were born from purely those motives.

Well, that's not really an argument against the necessity of God. You'd also have to prove that Islam was founded on the basis of political motives for this statement to hold any weight.

2 hours ago, ZephyrintheEast said:

Gods all around the world have similar attributes and godly stories similar themes, and I feel like the differences in belief systems only reflect the differences in circumstances, geography, history etc. The Sumerians in ancient Mesopotamia believed  in Gilgamesh's Epic (origins of Noah's Ark story, some say) because their livelihood depends so deeply on the rise and recede of the Tigris and Euphrates. The Roman Empire eventually adopted Christianity because it was better suited for its imperialistic needs. The point is, each society in history had molded the concepts of a higher deity(ies) as was needed by the people of its time. 

Well, all religions (including Islam) have been manipulated by those in power. It's impossible to stop this. HOWEVER the Quran revealed to Muhammad (saw) has no sign of carrying a political motive, or being suited to the desires of the people of that time. The Quran actually openly contradicts the ways of the people of that time! It opposed idol worship, fornication, prostitution, gambling, killing daughters.... how could the Quran have been fabricated to suit this purpose?

3 hours ago, ZephyrintheEast said:

Too many times I've seen Muslims poking fun at say, Hindus, for having one too many gods, but I'm a little tired of my brethren walking around like it's their birthright to walk straight into Heaven. Why should you be any more proud to be a Muslim than if you're proud to be tall or have ten fingers? 

Does Allah not compare in the Quran the astray people to cattle? Poking fun and insulting doesn't help, but if someone is saying the truth about the deviant (and illogical) belief of polytheism, why do you have a problem with that?

4 hours ago, ZephyrintheEast said:
 
Who's to say anyone of us is right? 

The one who created us?

I hope Allah clears your doubts, Wasalaam.

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:bismillah:

:salam:

Hey brother,

Rationality rules of everything has a cause, and the universe which is materialistic needs to have a creator or else we would probably live in an extreme chaos world. Religion was found by God for the creation as a way to establish everything organized, and proper. 

However, most Atheists do a mistake which is "How was God created?", simply, the creator can't be adjusted to his laws/creation put by him, and hence, this argument is pretty weak. 

Man, which is the creation of God, the creator, is applying the very same laws we are applied at, making God = Humans. And that asserts a problematic concept.

Every human being is born with a special "mark", that is the need of a creator, so as for when someone gets in trouble. On more than one occasion I know an atheist who started strangely praying "Ya Allah Ya Allah Ya Allah" when his son had a car accident, so that stems from the human intellect.

Moreover, According to a Molecular Biologist I once heard his lecture, he said the opportunity of proteins stemming out of coincidence is 10^164, furthermore he added that no serious scientists actually thinks that's the way it happened.

In science there is a Law of Physics called the 1st Law of Thermodynamics. Within it is a Conservation of Energy Law that states, as a key principle that all energy in a closed system must be conserved. But what does that mean? It means that while energy can convert into matter (physical “stuff”), and matter into energy, however much total “stuff” there is (matter and energy), there can never be an increase in that total amount or a decrease in that total amount. So however much total “stuff” there is in the universe, (matter and energy combined), there can never have been more and never have been less. All it can do is convert to different forms, like matter to energy or energy to matter, but the total amount of all of it has to remain the same.

The “closed system” is a scientific term that refers to a system or an “area” that has no outside influence, like the universe. Now, as believers we know, of course, that God does influence the universe, so many believers would consider the universe an “open system”, (one that does get outside influence), but for the atheist who says there is no God, the universe is all there is, so from their perspective and for the sake of conventional science, the universe would get no outside influence and would therefore be considered a “closed system”.

Back to the 1st Law of Thermodynamics. If it states that you can never have an increase or decrease of energy/matter, which means that matter/energy can not be created from nothingness, how did we get all the matter and energy in the universe? If science is all there is and there is no God, then the 1st Law of Thermodynamics reigns supreme and therefore it would be impossible to have matter and energy in existence right now. Simply put, when you open your eyes and see matter and experience energy, what you see is impossible according to the known Laws of science if, in fact, there is no God. Therefore, science itself says there must be a God.

Certain Laws of Physics and science actually prove that there MUST be a God, a creator of the Universe. There are, in fact, many scientific principles that make it impossible for life to generate from non-life, (abiogenesis), or for the universe to come into existence from nothingness, or for complexity and design to grow and develop in the universe on it's own. To the believer, this is merely common sense, but using science itself as well as logic, intellect and reasoning to back up our faith.

It is up to you :) 

 

:ws:

Edited by M.IB

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5 hours ago, hasanhh said:

Ayats 10:100 & 13:31  You cannot believe if Alah-s.w.t. does not will it.

lf you do not 'believe' -in my personal opinion- it is because ehYawAllah-s.w.t. has no use for you.

Allah AWJ does not stop any one from guidance. The above verses are only for oppressors and haughty individuals who do not want to accept sovereignty of Allah AWJ due to obstinacy and without any reason. 

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Another brother on my discord channel translated an article by aqaed.com, and although you might have to read it more than once to understand what the writer is getting at, it's basically a more in-depth explanation of what @M.IB said.

https://findshiaislam.blogspot.ca/2017/10/a-philosophical-question-in-regards-to.html

Quote

Demoting of Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى to the rank of humans for purpose of understanding these questions by human mind, is something that doesn't give a realistic conclusion, rather a demoting theoretical conclusion, since you are trying to You are making a cognitive attempt within a system that question tools don't work except in humans' logic and world.

 

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17 hours ago, ZephyrintheEast said:

Salam and hello everyone,

I apologize from the get go if this sounds like a Tumblr post but I genuinely want to hear from other Shiachat lurkers regarding the titular question.
 
Over the past few years I've had the opportunity to meet people from a multitude of backgrounds and diverse schools of thought and I was shocked by how fragile the structural integrity of my beliefs was. Everything that I've ever known was challenged, and I started to question the very nature of my existence.
Now of course one could blame it on my upbringing, maybe I didn't attend enough lectures or didn't pray hard enough. It's possible, but I urge you to approach this topic pragmatically and with an open mind. 
 
Have you ever considered that there is no God and we're really the consequence of...coincidence? A magnificent one on a celestial scale, but a coincidence nonetheless? There way as well may be infinite multiverse a out there, is it really that special to have life spring up on the tiniest of planets in the tiniest of solar systems in some so and so galaxy? And if we're to put aside the sheer awesomeness of the world for a minute, what really is there to compel a belief in a God? 
 
Many of us claim that God has a destiny for us, and there's a grand plan. Things have a way of working out in the end, don't they? But what if that's all just the human mind trying to rationalize the unexplainable, or attempting to live with the fact that ultimately nothing is under its control? Haven't there been countless events in history where powerful folk used religion for political agendas such as conquer and control? Hell, some religions were born from purely those motives. 
 
Gods all around the world have similar attributes and godly stories similar themes, and I feel like the differences in belief systems only reflect the differences in circumstances, geography, history etc. The Sumerians in ancient Mesopotamia believed  in Gilgamesh's Epic (origins of Noah's Ark story, some say) because their livelihood depends so deeply on the rise and recede of the Tigris and Euphrates. The Roman Empire eventually adopted Christianity because it was better suited for its imperialistic needs. The point is, each society in history had molded the concepts of a higher deity(ies) as was needed by the people of its time. 
 
Too many times I've seen Muslims poking fun at say, Hindus, for having one too many gods, but I'm a little tired of my brethren walking around like it's their birthright to walk straight into Heaven. Why should you be any more proud to be a Muslim than if you're proud to be tall or have ten fingers? 
 
The only reason I haven't completely abandoned the idea of a God is because I don't understand death. It certainly makes it easier to fathom my inevitable doom by thinking that we have a purpose. I want to, nay, I need to believe in a grand scheme if I'm to live my life not in a state of a constant existential crisis.
 
Who's to say anyone of us is right? 

Good.  Keep up the good post.  I would like to read more.  

 

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18 hours ago, ZephyrintheEast said:

Have you ever considered that there is no God and we're really the consequence of...coincidence?

Yes, but it appears that knowledge & power are prerequisite for the origin of systems like universe & life. And that dictates the existence of necessary being. So there is no need to think about coincidence anymore.

Quote: "What if God was fictitious?"

It will not harm us. There would be no after-life, no heaven & hell etc. in such case, so we don't have no worries. But what will happen if you believe in that there is no God & you find it wrong after your death?

 

18 hours ago, ZephyrintheEast said:

The only reason I haven't completely abandoned the idea of a God is because I don't understand death.

It is not beneficial for you if you have partially abandoned the fact that there exists a necessary being. Have you understood life?

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12 hours ago, Sindbad05 said:

Allah AWJ does not stop any one from guidance. The above verses are only for oppressors and haughty individuals who do not want to accept sovereignty of Allah AWJ due to obstinacy and without any reason. 

Ayats 8:23-24

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21 hours ago, ZephyrintheEast said:

Salam ...

 
The only reason I haven't completely abandoned the idea of a God is because I don't understand death.

Death is when your physiological animation ceases.

Ayat 21:35 then  Ayats 31:11 with 52:47

Then look up "torment of the grave" in Sahih Muslim. A hadith search will accomplish this.

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1 hour ago, hasanhh said:

Ayats 8:23-24

That's the point bro. Allah AWJ has attached Hidayah to goodness and the one who stays away from goodness or dislikes it, hidayah does not reach him. In other words, hidayah is inversely proportional to ignorance and help of Allah AWJ.

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15 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

That's the point bro. Allah AWJ has attached Hidayah to goodness and the one who stays away from goodness or dislikes it, hidayah does not reach him. In other words, hidayah is inversely proportional to ignorance and help of Allah AWJ.

The ayats l listed above l found while trying to look-up the ayat where it is revealed that Allah-s.w.t. will meet 'him' ~half-way. 'Him' being the person going into repentance.

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55 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

The ayats l listed above l found while trying to look-up the ayat where it is revealed that Allah-s.w.t. will meet 'him' ~half-way. 'Him' being the person going into repentance.

I didn't get the point bro.

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3 hours ago, Sindbad05 said:

I didn't get the point bro.

Sorry. l was trying to look-up a particular ayat and didn't find it. Yet, l did find the ones l cited about physical death.

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5 hours ago, just a muslim said:

the great poet Iqbal said: you may reject God, but how will you deny Muhammad? (saw)

Ki jo Khuda ne apni Hamd Muhammad Say,

Kham kar diye sab aitraz issi hamd say, 

Zahoor e Muhammad wujood e Khuda ki daleel hai, 

Issi Daleel say Nubwat ka woh Maqam hai,

Jo jhuke Muhammad k ehtaram main, 

Woh Jhuka hai Khuda ki Sajdah gah main, 

Iqbal, Muhammad hi Khuda ka raaz hai, 

Iss raaz say Hamd e Khuda ki Shurat hai.

(Ghulam Muhammad Muhammadi) 

Edited by Sindbad05

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6 hours ago, hasanhh said:

The ayats l listed above l found while trying to look-up the ayat where it is revealed that Allah-s.w.t. will meet 'him' ~half-way. 'Him' being the person going into repentance.

No, I did not understand this at all. Could you explain it ? or not then it's ok as well :) 

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