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On 11/8/2017 at 1:00 PM, thegoodman81 said:

@shiaman14, agreed, serving isn't always worship. But in your example of feeding the poor, you are conflating the idea of the one who is being served with the one who benefits. They're not always the same person.

In biblical understanding, our service which benefits others is obedience to God, and thus worshipful service to him. And this is what we see in Christendom, where you have people radically serving others as an act of service FOR God. As an example, I have a friend who flew down to Bolivia (he's there right now) to provide free surgeries for the poor in the rural areas. He's doing this act of service to the Bolivians, but it is for God. Which is another reason why Daniel seven ought to be considered worshipful. These people from all nations could be serving in charitable capacities, or in sacramental service such as singing worship songs, bowing in prayer, etc. There is no reason to read this passage as mundane service rather than worship. 

Remember that in Daniel 7 this is clearly a supernatural context in which this Son of Man is clearly a divine figure, not a prophet or human king. When you read this, it is clear that no human could be described this way. 

"And to him was given dominion
    and glory and a kingdom,   (glory here means that this person is worthy of worshipful service)
that all peoples, nations, and languages (He will be so great that people from every ethnicity will serve/worship him; this cannot be applied to any mere human being, and we already )
    should serve him;   
his dominion is an everlasting dominion,   (his rulehe will reign for eternity, not just a lifetime)
    which shall not pass away,
and his kingdom one
    that shall not be destroyed."   (his kingdom is eternal, indestructible; the kingdom of God)


Further, in Matthew 25, Jesus explains God's paradigm for worship as service in a parable:

41“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

Here, Jesus clearly points out that our service to those in need are as acts of worship to God. Loving humble service = worship. 

Thanks for proving my point brother. Daniel 7 is not proof of any being 's divinity other than the Supreme God.

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@Ashvazdanghe, it's an interesting video. However, it ignores the fact that throughout the Bible, Jesus refers to himself as the Son of Man, not using the term in reference to another figure. For example, in the book of Mark, chapter two: 
23 One Sabbath he was going through the grainfields, and as they made their way, his disciples began to pluck heads of grain. 24 And the Pharisees were saying to him, “Look, why are they doing what is not lawful on the Sabbath?” 25 And he said to them, “Have you never read what David did, when he was in need and was hungry, he and those who were with him: 26 how he entered the house of God, in the time of[d] Abiathar the high priest, and ate the bread of the Presence, which it is not lawful for any but the priests to eat, and also gave it to those who were with him?” 27 And he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 28 So the Son of Man is lord even of the Sabbath.”

Here, Jesus is the one who has just overridden the Sabbath regulations, and then at the end of his explanation he says "so the Son of Man is lord even of the Sabbath." It was not a cryptic reference to the future, but a titular explanation of what just happened and why he did what he did. 

Another example, in Matthew 8:

18 When Jesus saw the crowd around him, he gave orders to cross to the other side of the lake. 19 Then a teacher of the law came to him and said, “Teacher, I will follow you wherever you go.” 20 Jesus replied, “Foxes have dens and birds have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.” 21 Another disciple said to him, “Lord, first let me go and bury my father.”22 But Jesus told him, “Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead.”

In this passage, we can see clearly that the author was showing examples of Jesus' responses to those who wished to follow him. He was pointing out to the man who spoke in verse 19 that following him will mean wandering, homeless. It would not have been relevant for Jesus to tell this man that, in the Shia view, this messianic figure from the distant future would be homeless. Clearly from the context he is referring to himself. So the Shia view takes Jesus' use of "the Son of Man" out of context.

 

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On 11/8/2017 at 1:00 PM, thegoodman81 said:

@shiaman14, agreed, serving isn't always worship. But in your example of feeding the poor, you are conflating the idea of the one who is being served with the one who benefits. They're not always the same person.

In biblical understanding, our service which benefits others is obedience to God, and thus worshipful service to him. And this is what we see in Christendom, where you have people radically serving others as an act of service FOR God. As an example, I have a friend who flew down to Bolivia (he's there right now) to provide free surgeries for the poor in the rural areas. He's doing this act of service to the Bolivians, but it is for God. Which is another reason why Daniel seven ought to be considered worshipful. These people from all nations could be serving in charitable capacities, or in sacramental service such as singing worship songs, bowing in prayer, etc. There is no reason to read this passage as mundane service rather than worship. 

Remember that in Daniel 7 this is clearly a supernatural context in which this Son of Man is clearly a divine figure, not a prophet or human king. When you read this, it is clear that no human could be described this way. 

"And to him was given dominion
    and glory and a kingdom,   (glory here means that this person is worthy of worshipful service)
that all peoples, nations, and languages (He will be so great that people from every ethnicity will serve/worship him; this cannot be applied to any mere human being, and we already )
    should serve him;   
his dominion is an everlasting dominion,   (his rulehe will reign for eternity, not just a lifetime)
    which shall not pass away,
and his kingdom one
    that shall not be destroyed."   (his kingdom is eternal, indestructible; the kingdom of God)


Further, in Matthew 25, Jesus explains God's paradigm for worship as service in a parable:

41“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

Here, Jesus clearly points out that our service to those in need are as acts of worship to God. Loving humble service = worship. 

 

2 hours ago, thegoodman81 said:

@shiaman14, you'll have to explain what you mean. How did I prove your point??? I pointed out that the verse describes him in ways that can only mean he is divine.

 

1) We are both in agreement that service in the name of God is worship and those being served are not divine.

2) Everything in Daniel 7 is applicable to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as well yet we do not call him divine (God).

3) Why can't a human be what is mentioned in Daniel 7?

4) No where in the Jewish traditions is it mentioned that God will manifest himself as a human and then give himself dominion over his own creation when He already has dominion. The fact that God is giving His Kingdom to someone is in itself proof that the person receiving the Kingdom is not God.

 

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hi in shia view the Imam Mahdi(aj) is in occultation  & had no certain place (to lay down his head)

https://www.al-islam.org/es/search/site/mahdi

https://www.al-islam.org/search/site/son of man

The Golden Era of Reappearance

https://www.al-islam.org/golden-era-reappearance

PUBLISHER(S): 

This text addresses topics discussed in an exhibition concerning the originality and belief in the Mahdawiyat, establishment of justice and equity, and many other relevant topics.

TOPIC TAGS: 
MISCELLANEOUS INFORMATION: 
Compiled & Published by: Association of Imam Mahdi (a.s.), P. O. Box 19822, Mumbai – 400 050.
FEATURED CATEGORY: 
 

Al-Imam al-Mahdi, The Just Leader of Humanity

https://www.al-islam.org/al-imam-al-mahdi-just-leader-humanity-ayatullah-ibrahim-amini

Translated by Dr. Sachedina. Includes topics on the belief in the Mahdi, pseduo Mahdis, leadership of Imam Mahdi (a), occultation, his long life, and the reappearance of the Imam.

TRANSLATOR(S): 
CATEGORY: 
PERSON TAGS: 

A Shi'ite Encyclopedia

https://www.al-islam.org/shiite-encyclopedia-ahlul-bayt-dilp-team

A vast collection of information that addresses Shi'a/Sunni inter-school related issues. An effort of the Ahlul Bayt Digital Islamic Library Project Team

CATEGORY: 
FEATURED CATEGORY: 
 

Shi'i beliefs in the Bible

London Lectures
AUTHOR(S): 

A series of lectures outlining the fundamentals beliefs of Shia Islam present in the Bible, using proof-text method. Topics include Imam Hussain (as), Tragedy of Karbala, the Injeel & the event of Ghadeer.

CATEGORY: 
TOPIC TAGS: 

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Search for Truth

https://www.al-islam.org/search-truth-sv-mir-ahmad-ali

AUTHOR(S): 

This text contains the detailed minutes of a Muslim lecturer's discussion with Mr. Joseph and his teacher and mathematics professor about the basic doctrines of Christianity as well as about Islam. The object of this publication is to arm young Muslim minds with the truth so they can defend the unreasonable criticisms against Islam.

MISCELLANEOUS INFORMATION: 
Search for Truth by: S.V. Mir Ahmad Ali Published by: World Organization for Islamic Services, P.O. Box 11365-1545, Tehran – 15837. This publication was repeatedly published by WOFIS since 1973 - for a wide circulation - due to a great demand made by our readers throughout the world. No part of this publication may be reproduced without prior written permission from the WOFIS, Tehran. All rights reserved Revised edition 1418/1998
search%20for%20truth.JPG?itok=KP6R3qlN
FEATURED CATEGORY: 
 

A Closer Look at Christianity

AUTHORS(S): 
 

Was Jesus Sent to be Crucified

One of the fundamental beliefs of Christianity relates that Jesus died and allowed for the shedding of his blood for the sake of granting forgiveness to people. In other words Jesus died on the cross as a sacrifice for our sins. Let us investigate this topic from the Bible, and find out whether Jesus was sent to be crucified and whether he was crucified at all.

Willingness of Jesus Christ to die for our sins

Peter and the two sons of Zebedee were with Jesus Christ before the elders of the people and the chief priests came to take him to be crucified. Jesus at this point talked to Peter and the two sons of Zebedee as in Matthew 26:38 “Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.”

Then Jesus went a little further away from them and prayed to God as in Matthew 26:39 “And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.”

It is very clear from the above verse in Matthew 26:39 that Jesus had no intention of dying. In this verse it is shown that Jesus was praying strongly (Matthew mentions Jesus repeating this prayer three times) to have this death removed from him. Had Jesus Christ been sent to be crucified, he would not have hesitated to be killed at all.

When I raise this point in front of my Christian brothers, they tell me that this hesitation came from the flesh side of him (in other words he was tempted), and that his soul which is godly did not have this hesitation at all. When we look at Matthew 26:38 we see that Jesus was contradicting this idea by saying, “My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death.” (Matthew 26:38). He himself said that it’s really his soul that was hesitating and not his body. These were Jesus’ own words.

God answered the prayers of Jesus Christ

After Jesus made the above mentioned prayer he was answered by God according to Hebrews 5:7 “Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared.”

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Articles

Important Christian Interpretations on the Second Coming of Christ- Part 1

http://islampfr.com/important-christian-interpretations-second-coming-christ-part-1/

Category - Shia in non-Shia texts

http://islampfr.com/category/islam-in-non-islamic-texts/

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The Gospel of the Shi'ah of 'Ali ('a)

There is a peculiarly close relation between Prophet Jesus ('a) and Imam 'Ali ('a). Prophet Muhammad (S) himself is reported to have pointed this out:

It is reported that Imam 'Ali ('a) said, “The Messenger of Allah called me and said, 'O 'Ali! Verily, there is a similarity between you and Jesus the son of Mary ('a). The Christians love him so much that they put him in a position that was not for him; and the Jews hate him so much that they even slandered his mother.' And 'Ali ('a) said, 'Two [groups of] men will be ruined because of me, he who goes to extremes in love of me for what I do not have and he who hates me with a hatred that makes him slander me.”1

In addition, Imam 'Ali ('a), like Prophet Muhammad (S), is reported to have referred to Jesus ('a) as “My brother Jesus”2. Both Jesus ('a) and Imam 'Ali ('a) are the charismatic standard bearers for the esoteric dimension of religion; both were rejected by those who interpreted religion in a narrowly legalistic fashion and both were deified by extremists among their ‘would be’ supporters.

https://www.al-islam.org/al-tawhid/general-al-tawhid/gospel-shia-ali-muhammad-legenhausen/gospel-shiah-ali

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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https://www.al-islam.org/understanding-karbala-allamah-sayyid-saeed-akhtar-rizvi/prophecies-regarding-tragedy-karbala

 

Prophecies Regarding the Tragedy of Karbala’ from Ancient Books

As much great an event is, as much it is worthy of mention. A great proof of the importance of the tragedy of Karbala’ is also that not only the humans, jinns and angels have kept its remembrance alive, the Lord Creator of the Universe has continuously mentioned it in every time period. And not only the remembrance remained established after the event, it existed even before the event actually occurred and even before the birth of the Chief of the Martyrs (a.s). And not only that, it was present even before the creation of Adam. The Almighty mentioned about it to His chosen servants and informed them of those terrible events. The result derived from it is that the martyrdom of Husayn (a.s) is so magnificent and significant in the view of the Lord that He likes to mention it time and again. Under such circumstances, those who keep this calamity fresh are actually acting in consonance with the desire and will of the Almighty and walking the straight path. And one who opposes its remembran

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As-Sahifa Al-Kamilah Al-Sajjadiyya

The Psalms of Islam

A collection of supplications and whispered prayers composed by the great-grandson of the Prophet (s). Includes supplication for the Coming of the Month of Ramadhan, and supplication for Bidding Farewell to the Month of Ramadhan. At the end there is also the famous Treatise on Rights that explains beautifully the rights in an Islamic point of view.

CATEGORY: 

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