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Wa salam alaikum! (did I spell that right?)

I have a question about which I would love to hear a Muslim perspective. It regards Jesus Christ, a favorite for all of us. :)

In my conversations with Muslims, many say things like "Jesus never claimed to be God." So I would like to know what you (the Muslims on here) would say about this passage from John chapter 8:
 

54 Jesus answered, “If I want glory for myself, it doesn’t count. But it is my Father who will glorify me. You say, ‘He is our God,’ 55 but you don’t even know him. I know him. If I said otherwise, I would be as great a liar as you! But I do know him and obey him. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced as he looked forward to my coming. He saw it and was glad.”

57 The people said, “You aren’t even fifty years old. How can you say you have seen Abraham?[j]”

58 Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I am![k]” 59 At that point they picked up stones to throw at him. But Jesus was hidden from them and left the Temple.

[emphasis mine; for full context, check here]

In this passage, we see Jesus expressing several important things.

  • God is his father
  • Jesus is older than Abraham
  • Jesus uses the name of God {"I am"} as a description of himself.
  • The Jewish authorities recognized this as a claim to divinity, as evidenced by their grabbing of stones to kill him. 
  • God vindicated this claim by hiding Jesus so he could leave the Temple safely.

 

What are your thoughts about this passage?

Edited by thegoodman81
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43 minutes ago, thegoodman81 said:

Wa salam alaikum! (did I spell that right?)

I have a question about which I would love to hear a Muslim perspective. It regards Jesus Christ, a favorite for all of us. :)

In my conversations with Muslims, many say things like "Jesus never claimed to be God." So I would like to know what you (the Muslims on here) would say about this passage from John chapter 8:
 

54 Jesus answered, “If I want glory for myself, it doesn’t count. But it is my Father who will glorify me. You say, ‘He is our God,’ 55 but you don’t even know him. I know him. If I said otherwise, I would be as great a liar as you! But I do know him and obey him. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced as he looked forward to my coming. He saw it and was glad.”

57 The people said, “You aren’t even fifty years old. How can you say you have seen Abraham?[j]”

58 Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I am![k]” 59 At that point they picked up stones to throw at him. But Jesus was hidden from them and left the Temple.

[emphasis mine; for full context, check here]

In this passage, we see Jesus expressing several important things.

  • God is his father
  • Jesus is older than Abraham
  • Jesus uses the name of God {"I am"} as a description of himself.
  • The Jewish authorities recognized this as a claim to divinity, as evidenced by their grabbing of stones to kill him. 
  • God vindicated this claim by hiding Jesus so he could leave the Temple safely.

 

What are your thoughts about this passage?

Peace and greetings brother,

In the OT, aren't several prophets, angels and pious men referred to as son of God?

Exodus 4: 21-22:
22 Then say to Pharaoh, ‘This is what the Lord says: Israel is my firstborn son, 23 and I told you, “Let my son go, so he may worship me.” But you refused to let him go; so I will kill your firstborn son.’”

In the New Testament, Adam is referred to as son of god:

Luke 4:38:

38 the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

Were Jesus and Adam brothers?

As for Jesus being older than Abraham, as shia Muslims, we firmly believe that the first creation of God was Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). So if you say Jesus is older than Abraham, we can believe it but at the same time, it does not make Jesus God.

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Hi @shiaman14.

It's true that we see several people referred to as "sons of God" throughout the Old and New Testament. However, there are a couple of things to remember.

  • All of those others (aside from Adam) had biological fathers; Jesus did not (we agree on this, I believe)
  • None of the others claims God as their own father in the same sense as Jesus does. Jesus refers to God as his father in intimate terms, the others use this term in a symbolic sense of God (as the originator of all things).
  • Christians don't hang the divinity of Christ on his use of the idea of being a "son of God," but more on identifying himself as The Son of Man from Daniel 7. Christ refers to himself frequently as The Son of Man, which is a divine identifier. 

I'll grant your argument about Muhammad (although obviously I disagree that it's true that he was the first creation), because I can see how you would espouse that. 

But what about the rest of my bullet points? These are really more important:

  • Jesus uses the name of God {"I am"} as a description of himself.
  • The Jewish authorities recognized this as a claim to divinity, as evidenced by their grabbing of stones to kill him. 
  • God vindicated this claim by hiding Jesus so he could leave the Temple safely.

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31 minutes ago, thegoodman81 said:

All of those others (aside from Adam) had biological fathers; Jesus did not (we agree on this, I believe)

So then what of Adam. The verse is very clear in calling Adam the son of God. So if "son of God" truly means SON of God, then you have to accept that Adam and Jesus were brothers or step-brothers at the very least.

33 minutes ago, thegoodman81 said:

None of the others claims God as their own father in the same sense as Jesus does. Jesus refers to God as his father in intimate terms, the others use this term in a symbolic sense of God (as the originator of all things).

Since we dont have a Book of Adam, we can't really identify how intimately Adam referred to God. May be he was even more intimate. Moreover if you and I both call upon God in our own way, what may seem odd to you  may seem intimate to me and vice versa.

 

35 minutes ago, thegoodman81 said:

Christians don't hang the divinity of Christ on his use of the idea of being a "son of God," but more on identifying himself as The Son of Man from Daniel 7. Christ refers to himself frequently as The Son of Man, which is a divine identifier. 

Son of Man is controversial even amongst Christians. As for Daniel 7, couldnt it apply to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)?

36 minutes ago, thegoodman81 said:

Jesus uses the name of God {"I am"} as a description of himself.

I will use an analogy. The Quran refers to Allah as Merciful. The Quran refers to Muhammad as merciful. We dont confuse Muhammad to be God simply because of a few words.

41 minutes ago, thegoodman81 said:

The Jewish authorities recognized this as a claim to divinity, as evidenced by their grabbing of stones to kill him. 

The Jewish authorities had a vendetta against Jesus because he was correcting the errors of their ways. For them, Jesus claiming to be older than Abraham was enough, divinity or not.

42 minutes ago, thegoodman81 said:

God vindicated this claim by hiding Jesus so he could leave the Temple safely.

Sure enough, God protected Jesus from the evil plans of the Jewish authorities for He is the Best of Planners.

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On how intimately Adam spoke with God, the Torah should be our final authority (I'm sure we both agree), and it doesn't showcase anything like the way Jesus speaks of God as his father. To suggest otherwise is really an argument from silence. Also, "Son of Man" is not controversial among Christians, unless you can show me evidence to the contrary. Also, it cannot pertain to Muhammad, because he is shown to be a divine figure, and Muhammad even says of himself that he is only a man, while Jesus claims to be The Son of Man. So, not Muhammad. You might find this article to be interesting. 

But again, neither of those titles are the key factor in this passage. I was only pointing it out originally because it was in there and I didn't want to ignore it. The more important thing is Jesus' claim to be God. "I Am" is God's expressed name, not an attribute (although it expresses an attribute as well). So this is very different than your example of "merciful."

And you are right they they had a general vendetta against Jesus, but that's not what we see driving their actions in this instance. Their response is acute, and it is in direct relation to what he has just said, not his general accusations against them. If you want further evidence, just a few chapters further it happens again. See this from John 10:

Then came the Festival of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23and Jesus was in the temple courts walking in Solomon’s Colonnade. 24The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.”

25Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

31Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”

33“We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.

You can see that they (Pharisees and religious elite; not the same group as in chapter 8, by the way) are only agitated to the point of violence when he makes statements of his divinity. These were very clear to them, and they knew the context much better than we do. 

Also, within the timeline of the book of John, the formal plotting to kill Jesus hadn't begun yet. That isn't introduced until after these two events, in chapter 11:45-57

 

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2 hours ago, thegoodman81 said:

Hi @shiaman14.

It's true that we see several people referred to as "sons of God" throughout the Old and New Testament. However, there are a couple of things to remember.

  • All of those others (aside from Adam) had biological fathers; Jesus did not (we agree on this, I believe)
  • None of the others claims God as their own father in the same sense as Jesus does. Jesus refers to God as his father in intimate terms, the others use this term in a symbolic sense of God (as the originator of all things).
  • Christians don't hang the divinity of Christ on his use of the idea of being a "son of God," but more on identifying himself as The Son of Man from Daniel 7. Christ refers to himself frequently as The Son of Man, which is a divine identifier. 

I'll grant your argument about Muhammad (although obviously I disagree that it's true that he was the first creation), because I can see how you would espouse that. 

But what about the rest of my bullet points? These are really more important:

  • Jesus uses the name of God {"I am"} as a description of himself.
  • The Jewish authorities recognized this as a claim to divinity, as evidenced by their grabbing of stones to kill him. 
  • God vindicated this claim by hiding Jesus so he could leave the Temple safely.

Adam did not have a father or a mother, so if anyone is the son of God based on this conjecture then it is Adam.

 

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As I said before, Jesus uses the term "father" for God way more frequently and refers to their relationship more intimately than anyone else in the Bible, and substantially so. Plus, throughout the Old Testament, which set the precedent for Jesus' day, NOBODY refers to God as their own, personal father. Yes, God is referred to as a father to Israel, or as a father to creation. And yes, God says of certain individuals, both known and unknown, that they will be his sons. But these are symbolic terms, not relational terms. Jesus was the first to say God was his father.

Look through these verses; all of the Old Testament references are symbolic, where God is seen as a father to a nation or to a category of people. Only in Jesus and then subsequently in the New Testament do we see a full picture of God confessed as a father. 
And NO, that does not mean a biological, sexual father. It is spiritual and in the case of Christians, adoptive.

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1 hour ago, thegoodman81 said:

On how intimately Adam spoke with God, the Torah should be our final authority (I'm sure we both agree), and it doesn't showcase anything like the way Jesus speaks of God as his father. To suggest otherwise is really an argument from silence. Also, "Son of Man" is not controversial among Christians, unless you can show me evidence to the contrary. Also, it cannot pertain to Muhammad, because he is shown to be a divine figure, and Muhammad even says of himself that he is only a man, while Jesus claims to be The Son of Man. So, not Muhammad. You might find this article to be interesting. 
 

Hey brother,

So the intimacy of how one speaks is hardly a criteria to determine divinity.

Son of Man = https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Son_of_man_(Christianity)

Daniel 7:
“In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man,[a] coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority,glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

There is nothing in the above that would lead one to believe that "son of man" is being referred to a divine being. The fact that God is giving authority, glory and sovereignty shows that the giver of authority and the acceptor of authority cannot be the same. So son of man in this case cannot refer to a divine being.

On a slightly note, it could be that the vision was just a dream and nothing more.

2 hours ago, thegoodman81 said:

But again, neither of those titles are the key factor in this passage. I was only pointing it out originally because it was in there and I didn't want to ignore it. The more important thing is Jesus' claim to be God. "I Am" is God's expressed name, not an attribute (although it expresses an attribute as well). So this is very different than your example of "merciful."

There can be 10 words in arabic that only has 1 equivalent word in english. Could be the case here as well, couldnt it?

Shouldnt we discuss the hebrew word for "I am" and what aramaic word did Jesus use that is translated as "I am".

2 hours ago, thegoodman81 said:

On how intimately Adam spoke with God, the Torah should be our final authority (I'm sure we both agree), and it doesn't showcase anything like the way Jesus speaks of God as his father. To suggest otherwise is really an argument from silence. Also, "Son of Man" is not controversial among Christians, unless you can show me evidence to the contrary. Also, it cannot pertain to Muhammad, because he is shown to be a divine figure, and Muhammad even says of himself that he is only a man, while Jesus claims to be The Son of Man. So, not Muhammad. You might find this article to be interesting. 

But again, neither of those titles are the key factor in this passage. I was only pointing it out originally because it was in there and I didn't want to ignore it. The more important thing is Jesus' claim to be God. "I Am" is God's expressed name, not an attribute (although it expresses an attribute as well). So this is very different than your example of "merciful."

And you are right they they had a general vendetta against Jesus, but that's not what we see driving their actions in this instance. Their response is acute, and it is in direct relation to what he has just said, not his general accusations against them. If you want further evidence, just a few chapters further it happens again. See this from John 10:

Then came the Festival of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23and Jesus was in the temple courts walking in Solomon’s Colonnade. 24The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.”

25Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

31Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”

33“We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.

 

Can you please show me where Jesus claim's divinity? Someone accusing me of claiming divinity and me stating I am God are different.. 

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27 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

He was given authority,glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. 

Worshiped or serving ? All Other translations say serving and one says obeying which make sense. No of the old Testament followers believe or any previous prophets could say a man is going to be worshiped, because worship is only for God only. 

New International Version
He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

New Living Translation
He was given authority, honor, and sovereignty over all the nations of the world, so that people of every race and nation and language would obey him. His rule is eternal--it will never end. His kingdom will never be destroyed.

English Standard Version
And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed.

New American Standard Bible 
"And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed.

King James Bible
And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
He was given authority to rule, and glory, and a kingdom; so that those of every people, nation, and language should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and His kingdom is one that will not be destroyed." 

International Standard Version
To him dominion was bestowed, along with glory and a kingdom, so that all peoples, nations, and languages are to serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion—it will never pass away—and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed."

NET Bible
To him was given ruling authority, honor, and sovereignty. All peoples, nations, and language groups were serving him. His authority is eternal and will not pass away. His kingdom will not be destroyed. 

New Heart English Bible
There was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations, and languages should serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
He was given power, honor, and a kingdom. People from every province, nation, and language were to serve him. His power is an eternal power that will not be taken away. His kingdom will never be destroyed.

JPS Tanakh 1917
And there was given him dominion, And glory, and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations, and languages Should serve him; His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, And his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

New American Standard 1977 
“And to Him was given dominion, 
            Glory and a kingdom, 
            That all the peoples, nations, and men of every language 
            Might serve Him. 
            His dominion is an everlasting dominion 
            Which will not pass away; 
            And His kingdom is one 
            Which will not be destroyed.

Jubilee Bible 2000
And he gave him dominion and glory and kingdom; and all the peoples, nations, and tongues served him: his dominion is an eternal dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom such that it shall never be corrupted.

King James 2000 Bible
And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

American King James Version
And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

American Standard Version
And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations, and languages should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And he gave him power, and glory, and a kingdom: and all peoples, tribes and tongues shall serve him: his power is an everlasting power that shall not be taken away: and his kingdom that shall not be destroyed. 

Darby Bible Translation
And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed.

English Revised Version
And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations, and languages should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Webster's Bible Translation
And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

World English Bible
There was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations, and languages should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Young's Literal Translation
And to him is given dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, and all peoples, nations, and languages do serve him, his dominion is a dominion age-during, that passeth not away, and his kingdom that which is not destroyed.

Edited by Dhulfikar

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24 minutes ago, Dhulfikar said:

Worshiped or serving ? All Other translations say serving and one says obeying which make sense. No of the old Testament followers believe or any previous prophets could say a man is going to be worshiped, because worship is only for God only. 

New International Version
He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

New Living Translation
He was given authority, honor, and sovereignty over all the nations of the world, so that people of every race and nation and language would obey him. His rule is eternal--it will never end. His kingdom will never be destroyed.

English Standard Version
And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed.

New American Standard Bible 
"And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed.

King James Bible
And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
He was given authority to rule, and glory, and a kingdom; so that those of every people, nation, and language should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and His kingdom is one that will not be destroyed." 

International Standard Version
To him dominion was bestowed, along with glory and a kingdom, so that all peoples, nations, and languages are to serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion—it will never pass away—and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed."

NET Bible
To him was given ruling authority, honor, and sovereignty. All peoples, nations, and language groups were serving him. His authority is eternal and will not pass away. His kingdom will not be destroyed. 

New Heart English Bible
There was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations, and languages should serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
He was given power, honor, and a kingdom. People from every province, nation, and language were to serve him. His power is an eternal power that will not be taken away. His kingdom will never be destroyed.

JPS Tanakh 1917
And there was given him dominion, And glory, and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations, and languages Should serve him; His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, And his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

New American Standard 1977 
“And to Him was given dominion, 
            Glory and a kingdom, 
            That all the peoples, nations, and men of every language 
            Might serve Him. 
            His dominion is an everlasting dominion 
            Which will not pass away; 
            And His kingdom is one 
            Which will not be destroyed.

Jubilee Bible 2000
And he gave him dominion and glory and kingdom; and all the peoples, nations, and tongues served him: his dominion is an eternal dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom such that it shall never be corrupted.

King James 2000 Bible
And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

American King James Version
And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

American Standard Version
And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations, and languages should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And he gave him power, and glory, and a kingdom: and all peoples, tribes and tongues shall serve him: his power is an everlasting power that shall not be taken away: and his kingdom that shall not be destroyed. 

Darby Bible Translation
And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed.

English Revised Version
And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations, and languages should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Webster's Bible Translation
And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

World English Bible
There was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations, and languages should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Young's Literal Translation
And to him is given dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, and all peoples, nations, and languages do serve him, his dominion is a dominion age-during, that passeth not away, and his kingdom that which is not destroyed.

thanks brother. You nailed it. 

that was my reference to the brother about ancient languages having different translations for the same word. Context is highly relevant.

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Jesus through Shiite Narrations

https://www.al-islam.org/jesus-though-shiite-narrations-mahdi-muntazir-qaim

AUTHOR(S): 

Categorized collection of hadith (narrations) on Prophet Jesus (a) from the Shia books of Hadith. Topics include: His childhood, characteristics, the disciples, children of Israel, the Gospel, supplications to God among others.

TRANSLATOR(S): 
JESUS%20THROUGH%20SHIITE%20NARRATIONS%20
FEATURED CATEGORY: 
PERSON TAGS: 
 
 

His Second Coming

https://www.al-islam.org/jesus-though-shiite-narrations-mahdi-muntazir-qaim/his-second-coming

1. Shahr ibn Hawshab said, “Al-Hajjaj said to me, ‘There is a verse in the Book of Allah that has wearied me.’ I said, ‘O Commander! Which verse is it?’ He said, ‘His saying,

‘And there is not one of the followers of the Book but most certainly believes in this before his death, and on the day of resurrection he (Jesus) shall be a witness against them. (4:159)’

By Allah! I command a Jew and a Christian to be beheaded, then I look at them with my own eyes, but I do not see them moving their lips when they die.’ I said, ‘May Allah reform the Commander! It is not as you have interpreted it.’ He said, ‘How is it?’

I said, ‘Verily, Jesus will descend to the world before the Resurrection Day, then the people of the Jewish nation or Christian nation will not remain [on the earth] unless they believe in him before their death and will pray behind al-Mahdi.’ He said, ‘Woe unto you! Where did you bring it from?’ I said, ‘Muhammad ibn ‘Ali ibn al-Husayn ibn ‘Ali ibn Abu Talib (‘a) narrated it to me.’ He said, ‘By Allah! You brought it from a pure spring.’

 

The Birth of Jesus

https://www.al-islam.org/jesus-though-shiite-narrations-mahdi-muntazir-qaim/birth-jesus

1. It is reported that Abu Basir said, “I asked Abu Ja‘far (‘a) about ‘Imran, whether he was a prophet. He said, ‘Yes. He was a prophet and an apostle to his people. And Hannah, the wife of ‘Imran and Hananah, the wife of Zachariah were sisters.

Mary was born to ‘Imran from Hannah, and John (‘a) was born to Zachariah from Hananah. Mary gave birth to Jesus (‘a) and Jesus (‘a) was the son of the daughter of John’s aunt. John (‘a)was the son of the aunt of Mary. And the aunt of one’s mother is like one’s aunt.”1

2. It is reported that Ya‘qub ibn Ja‘far ibn Ibrahim said, “I was close to Abu al-Hasan Musa (‘a) when a Christian came to him. We were at ‘Uraid. The Christian said to him, ‘I came to you from a far land and have had a difficult journey. I have been asking my Lord for thirty years to guide me to the best religion and the best servants and the most knowledgeable of them.

In a dream someone came to me and described a man for me who was in the upper regions of Damascus. I went until I reached him. Then I spoke with him. He said, “I am the most knowledgeable among the people of my religion, but there is one who is more knowledgeable than I.”

I said, “Guide me to the one who is more knowledgeable than you. I do not care how long the journey; a long distance is not too far for me. I have read the Gospels, all of them, the Psalms of David, and I have read four books of the Torah, and I have read the Qur’an outwardly, until I learned all of it.”

Then the scholar said to me, “If you want to study about Christianity, I am the most knowledgeable person among the Arabs and non-Arabs. If you want to study about Judaism, Bati ibn Shurahbil al-Samiri is the most knowledgeable of men today.

If you want knowledge of Islam, knowledge of the Torah and knowledge of the Gospel and the Psalms, and the book of Hud, and all of what has been sent down to every prophet in your time and the times of others… I will guide you to him, so go to him, even if you have to walk...”

Abu Ibrahim [Imam Musa Kadhim (‘a)] said to him, “I will inform you of something that only a few people know who have read the books. Tell me what is the name of the mother of Mary, and the day on which Mary was breathed into, and what hour of the day, and on what day Mary gave birth to Jesus (‘a) and what hour of the day?” The Christian said, “I do not know.”

Abu Ibrahim said, “As for the mother of Mary, her name was Mirtha, in Arabic, Wahibah (gift). As for the day on which Mary conceived, it was Friday at noon, and that was the day that the Ruh al-Amin (the trustworthy spirit) came down, and there is no festival better than this for Muslims.

Allah, the Blessed and Almighty, magnified it, and Muhammad (S) magnified it and He ordered that it should be a holiday, and it was Friday. As for the day on which Mary was born, it was Tuesday, at four thirty in the afternoon. And do you know what was the river beside which Mary gave birth to Jesus (‘a)?” He said, “No.” He said, “It was the Euphrates, and beside it were date palms and grape vines. There is nothing like the grapes and date palms near the Euphrates…”2

 

The Conduct of Jesus

https://www.al-islam.org/jesus-though-shiite-narrations-mahdi-muntazir-qaim/conduct-jesus

1.Imam ‘Ali (‘a) said, “John the son of Zachariah (‘a) cried and did not laugh, and Jesus the son of Mary (‘a) laughed and cried; and what Jesus did was more excellent than what John did.”1

2. Abu Ja‘far (‘a) said, “Jesus the son of Mary and John the son of Zakariyya, peace be with our prophet, his progeny and them, went out to the desert. They heard the sound of a wild animal. Jesus the son of Mary (‘a) said, ‘O how wonderful! What is this sound?’ John said, ‘This is the sound of a wild animal who is giving birth.’ Jesus the son of Mary (‘a) said, ‘Come down easily, easily, by the permission of Allah, the Exalted.’”

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Son of Man

https://www.google.com/search?q=son+of+man%2Braefipoor&oq=son+of+man%2Braefipoor&aqs=chrome..69i57.9239j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

https://www.aparat.com/v/bOf9S

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiHu829-6vXAhVDVxoKHQxyChgQtwIIJDAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DlbZOnI-u6Os&usg=AOvVaw2zRwZraZLkOZAsrTZ9IjSz

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiHu829-6vXAhVDVxoKHQxyChgQFggnMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fplaylist%3Flist%3DPLXU7w5ENk8aXhNMkaFz-DsvHMHlOe2b8Q&usg=AOvVaw1HZAnOaNg1JfqzjuYrLU6P

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=10&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiHu829-6vXAhVDVxoKHQxyChgQFghBMAk&url=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fraefipoor%2Fstatus%2F898792192029868032&usg=AOvVaw3TYSUWaA_ar8GfCubsEN7A

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=11&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiHu829-6vXAhVDVxoKHQxyChgQFghHMAo&url=https%3A%2F%2Fplus.google.com%2F%2BAliakbarRaefipoorEnglishVideos%2Fposts%2F2jc7UeopQFK&usg=AOvVaw1wF98Llj4JqXp9G6TeboaR

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=12&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiHu829-6vXAhVDVxoKHQxyChgQFghNMAs&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fpermalink.php%3Fstory_fbid%3D540836036096473%26id%3D537291549784255&usg=AOvVaw2CYv-NB42NKkbo35AhsN-m

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=13&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiHu829-6vXAhVDVxoKHQxyChgQFghSMAw&url=http%3A%2F%2Ftube.sarcheshmeh.us%2Fchannel.php%3Fch%3DUCTGZOmQ-XqkdsK0ChTnpecQ&usg=AOvVaw3d-K6r0O2XZwIpK9N-G85e

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https://www.aparat.com/v/74IH5https://www.aparat.com/v/YCNK6

http://www.the-12th-imam.com/

 

The Twelfth Imam, Muhammad ibn al-Hasan (Al-Mahdi-Sahibuz Zaman) (The hidden Imam who is expected to return)

https://www.al-islam.org/story-of-the-holy-kaaba-and-its-people-shabbar/twelfth-imam-muhammad-ibn-al-hasan-al-mahdi

“The world will not come to an end,” said the Prophet Muhammad, “ until a man from my family (Ahlul Bayt) and of my name shall be master of the world, When you see a green ensign coming from the direction of Khorasan, then join them, for the Imam of God will be with the standards who will be called al-Mahdi.”

“The Mahdi will be descended from me, he will be a man with an open countenance and a face with a high nose. He will fill the earth with equity and with justice, just as it has been filled with tyranny and oppression.” (Biharul Anwar, Majlisi)

Imam Muhammad Abul Qasim (al Mahdi) (as) , the last in the line of the Twelve Ithna Ashari Imams was born on 15th Shaban 255 Hijri in Samarra, Iraq. His father was the Eleventh Imam Hasan al-Askari (as) and his mother was Nargis Khatoon, granddaughter of the Emperor of Rum.

 

Lesson 18: The Twelfth Imam: Muhammad al-Mahdi (a.s.)

https://www.al-islam.org/islam-faith-practice-history-sayyid-muhammad-rizvi/lesson-18-twelfth-imam-muhammad-al-mahdi

The twelfth Imam, Muhammad al-Mahdi (may Allah hasten his appearance) was born on the 15th of Sha`ban in the year 255 AH in Samarra. His imamat began at the age of five when his father died in 260 AH. His name (Muhammad) and his agnomen (Abu 'l-Qāsim) are the same as that of the Prophet of Islam.

His father was the eleventh Shi‘a Imam, Imam Hasan al-`Askari; and his mother was the great lady Nargis (may the peace of Allah be with them both).

For various reasons, the Twelfth Imam, did not appear publicly; and for about seventy years, people were in communication with him through the intermediary of his special agents, in order of succession: `Uthman bin Sa`id, Muhammad bin `Uthman, Husayn bin Ruh, and ‘Ali bin Muhammad as-Samarri. This period of seventy years is known as the minor occultation (al-ghaybatu 's-sughra) and at the end of that period began the major occultation (al-ghaybatu 'l-kubra).

During the major occultation till the time of re-appearance, no one has been appointed as his special representative. As for legal issues, the people have the duty of referring to the fuqaha and mujtahids—those excelling in knowledge of the Islamic laws.

 

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@Ashvazdanghe, WOOOW, I am not possibly going to be able to look into all of this. I'm a hobbyist on Shiachat, not a professional! :D  Maybe you could boil this down into your own words?

Also, @shiaman14 and @Dhulfikar, it's true that it's frequently translated "serve," but there has always been a deep relationship between "serving" and "worship" in the Hebrew tradition. The two meanings are interlocked. See https://tifwe.org/avodah-a-life-of-work-worship-and-service/ and here, https://www.efcatoday.org/story/avodah-word-study for an explanation. Hebrew worship was seen as service. Plus, you can see later in Daniel 7:26-27 a very clear association of this same act of "service" being for "The Most High" (God). So service in this context is clearly a worshipful service. 

Even throughout both the Old and New Testament, "service" is emphasized as worship. Priests served in the temple. (this is not meant as argument, but it is telling that most churches call their weekly meeting a "worship service"). The entire book of Leviticus is a handbook for appropriate worship, and what does it prescribe? Service.

And a mutual favorite for all of us, Jesus, also equates service with worship. Satan asks him for worship, and Jesus responds by denying him both worship and service.

from Luke 4 =

5 The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. 6 And he said to him, “I will give you all their authority and splendor; it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. 7 If you worship me, it will all be yours.”

8Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.’”

 

So if you want to make the argument that the "serving" of the Son of Man is not an act of worship, there is no biblical reason to do so. 

 

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Hi for Shia Muslims giving their service to 12th Imam Mahdi  (aj) is a part of worshipping the God (Allah) because he is the choosen one by Allah to be his Leader (Khalifa) on earth and our bridge to Allah that is the sign of Allah on earth.

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7 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Hi for Shia Muslims giving their service to 12th Imam Mahdi  (aj) is a part of worshipping the God (Allah) because he is the choosen one by Allah to be his Leader (Khalifa) on earth and our bridge to Allah that is the sign of Allah on earth.

Oh, I see. 
So you're saying that serving can be a form of worship even in Islam, correct? I'm glad to hear it! :)

 

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Looking at the face of Ali is worship (prophet Mohammad pbu)

https://purifiedhousehold.com/looking-at-the-face-of-ali-as-is-worship/

For us all 12th Imam are sons of Imam Ali (as)& Fatima  (a) so it is uses for all 12 Imams.

 

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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21 hours ago, thegoodman81 said:


Also, @shiaman14 and @Dhulfikar, it's true that it's frequently translated "serve," but there has always been a deep relationship between "serving" and "worship" in the Hebrew tradition. The two meanings are interlocked. See https://tifwe.org/avodah-a-life-of-work-worship-and-service/ and here, https://www.efcatoday.org/story/avodah-word-study for an explanation. Hebrew worship was seen as service. Plus, you can see later in Daniel 7:26-27 a very clear association of this same act of "service" being for "The Most High" (God). So service in this context is clearly a worshipful service. 

Even throughout both the Old and New Testament, "service" is emphasized as worship. Priests served in the temple. (this is not meant as argument, but it is telling that most churches call their weekly meeting a "worship service"). The entire book of Leviticus is a handbook for appropriate worship, and what does it prescribe? Service.

And a mutual favorite for all of us, Jesus, also equates service with worship. Satan asks him for worship, and Jesus responds by denying him both worship and service.

from Luke 4 =

5 The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. 6 And he said to him, “I will give you all their authority and splendor; it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. 7 If you worship me, it will all be yours.”

8Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.’”

 

So if you want to make the argument that the "serving" of the Son of Man is not an act of worship, there is no biblical reason to do so. 

 

Brother - I can feed the poor and that can be considered worship. Doesn't make the poor divine.

I am good to my neighbor thereby fulfilling the commandment. That can be considered worship. Doesn't make my neighbor divine.

etc. etc.

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@shiaman14, agreed, serving isn't always worship. But in your example of feeding the poor, you are conflating the idea of the one who is being served with the one who benefits. They're not always the same person.

In biblical understanding, our service which benefits others is obedience to God, and thus worshipful service to him. And this is what we see in Christendom, where you have people radically serving others as an act of service FOR God. As an example, I have a friend who flew down to Bolivia (he's there right now) to provide free surgeries for the poor in the rural areas. He's doing this act of service to the Bolivians, but it is for God. Which is another reason why Daniel seven ought to be considered worshipful. These people from all nations could be serving in charitable capacities, or in sacramental service such as singing worship songs, bowing in prayer, etc. There is no reason to read this passage as mundane service rather than worship. 

Remember that in Daniel 7 this is clearly a supernatural context in which this Son of Man is clearly a divine figure, not a prophet or human king. When you read this, it is clear that no human could be described this way. 

"And to him was given dominion
    and glory and a kingdom,   (glory here means that this person is worthy of worshipful service)
that all peoples, nations, and languages (He will be so great that people from every ethnicity will serve/worship him; this cannot be applied to any mere human being, and we already )
    should serve him;   
his dominion is an everlasting dominion,   (his rulehe will reign for eternity, not just a lifetime)
    which shall not pass away,
and his kingdom one
    that shall not be destroyed."   (his kingdom is eternal, indestructible; the kingdom of God)


Further, in Matthew 25, Jesus explains God's paradigm for worship as service in a parable:

41“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

Here, Jesus clearly points out that our service to those in need are as acts of worship to God. Loving humble service = worship. 

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Holy Quran 76:8 (Al-Insan:8)
------------------
وَيُطْعِمُونَ الطَّعَامَ عَلَىٰ حُبِّهِ مِسْكِينًا وَيَتِيمًا وَأَسِيرًا

And they give food in spite of love for it to the needy, the orphan, and the captive,

http://tanzil.net/#76:8

in Shia view this verse of Holy Quran about Imam Ali(as) &Lady Fatima (A)& Imam hasan(as)& Imam Hussain(as)

Holy Quran 76:8
------------------
وَيُطْعِمُونَ الطَّعَامَ عَلَىٰ حُبِّهِ مِسْكِينًا وَيَتِيمًا وَأَسِيرًا

And feed with food the needy wretch, the orphan and the prisoner, for love of Him,

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