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Mansur Bakhtiari

The proof of maraji who support Tatbir

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Salam alaikom everyone. I want to know what the proofs maraji who support tatbir use to justify seeing it as a legitimate Islamic act (I am impartial on this). I saw some proofs, and I'll mention the ones I've heard in this post.

Ayatollah Jawad Tabrizi http://ar.tabrizi.org/1393/08/hosseini-aza/

(۹۵) ما هو نظر المرجع حول التطبیر؟
بسمه تعالى؛ التطبیر فی حد نفسه جائز، وقد استشکل فی استحبابه جزعاً، وإن کان المنقول أن السیده زینب (علیها السلام) لما رأت رأس أخیها الحسین (علیه السلام) على رمح طویل نطحت بمقدم المحمل حتى سالت الدماء من رأسها، واللّه العالم.

(95) What is the opinion of the Marja on Tatbir?

In the name of the Exalted, Tatbir on oneself is allowed, and it has been included in the Mustahab grief (jaza, grief for the Imams (as)), and in was imparted when Sayyeda Zaynab (as), when she saw the head of her brother Husayn (as) on the long spear, she struck against the post (?) until blood spilled from her head, and Allah knows best.

The source of this I'd searched earlier and had found it to be in Bihar al-Anwar Volume 45. It said the narration was a "mursal report from some of the reliable books."

 

Ayatollah Sayed Sadiq Shirazi

2
Question: Whenever we start to talk about tatbir, the people try to refute us saying when did any Imam (AS) tell us to do this or when did they do it themselves. Is there anyone who was more agrieved then Imam Sajjad (AS) they ask? Sometimes they say that it is mentioned in The Quran that we are not allowed to hurt our body. If you can please tell me how to refute there argument, it will be highly appreciated.

The harms that are haram in Islam are the harms that do three things: 1- Kill the human being instantly 2- Stop a body limb from working 3- Stop a human power (such as producing children) This is according to the Fiqh of Imam al Sadiq (a.s). Any other harm is not considered Haram, such as fast-food, smoking, speeding in your vehicle, etc.

Does anyone know a source for this?

 

I'd also like to know what you think of this video

Inshallah I'll find time tomorrow to summarize the above :)

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53 minutes ago, E.L King said:

Salam brother you have problems with some of your translations which changes the meaning of some of these fatwas.

Can you correct me brother? I'm not good with arabic. 

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hi you can visit www.tatbir.org 

Tatbir makes a bad Image of Shia Islam aroud the world.in above link you can see its story the people do it have good purpose but seeing it from outsiders has a negative effect on persons that want become Shia muslim so make them refuse to convert or revert to shia Islam and become sunni for its good image and there is danger of shifting them to Wahabism.

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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5 hours ago, Mansur Bakhtiari said:

Can you correct me brother? I'm not good with arabic. 

For example, Mirza Jawad Al-Tabrizi (rah) said (rough translation): tatbir in and of itself is permissible, and it's istihbab is disputed upon in regards to doing it [for the sake of] grief. Even though, what has been narrated, is ... (now he mentions the narration of Sayyeda Zaynab ra)

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For example in Nigeria the Tatbir is not peractises and instead of that they donate free blood during month of Muharam specialy in Tasua.Ashura&Arbaeen that it causes that many Nigerians converts to shia Islam.   

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the story of Sayyeda Zaynab (ra) about Tatbir is very weak & has many debates among shia Scholars because its source is untruthful if somebody wants to do Tatbir its better not performes it in public because nowadays wahabists use it as a tool to make a bad Image from shia Islam and absorb people to themselves.

I recommend you search about shiablooddonors. 

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Salam

i was also curious about this riwayat. hence i asked ayatullah makarem sherazi and this is what he replied.

Q : Assalam o Alaikum
There is a narration which says that Lady Zainab (sa) hit her head on the "kajawa" of camel and it began to bleed. Is it authentic?
Best Regards

Ans: Wa Alaykum Assalaam
There were no Mahmil or Kajawah because it has been mentioned in narrations that captives were on camels without Kajawah and also Kajawah is a means for respect and no one uses it for captives.

 

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2 hours ago, E.L King said:

For example, Mirza Jawad Al-Tabrizi (rah) said (rough translation): tatbir in and of itself is permissible, and it's istihbab is disputed upon in regards to doing it [for the sake of] grief. Even though, what has been narrated, is ... (now he mentions the narration of Sayyeda Zaynab ra)

Oh ok, thanks brother. I think Ayatollah Hosseini-Nassab in Toronto says the samw thing, that in itself Tatbir isn't haram, but if it defames islam, causes harm, etc it's haram. 

 

4 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

hi you can visit www.tatbir.org 

Tatbir makes a bad Image of Shia Islam aroud the world.in above link you can see its story the people do it have good purpose but seeing it from outsiders has a negative effect on persons that want become Shia muslim so make them refuse to convert or revert to shia Islam and become sunni for its good image and there is danger of shifting them to Wahabism.

Ayatollah Jamil al-Amili responded to this quite simply.

"Those who say we should ban Tatbir because it is shameful for our religion because Kuffar and Mukhalifin attack us on this; then we should ban Mutah it is the most shameful thing for us according to our enemies."

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hi Mutah has confirmation from quran & Sunni & shia hadithes so couldnt ban easily  but Tatbir is just a tradition that doesnt have strong base & nowadays has made bad Image of shia Islam and if you give your blood in way of Imam hussain (as) I recommend you  free donating blood that has more positive benefit & Image for Shia Islam & Imam hussain(as).

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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I believe the point in ayt. Jamil al Amili was that Fiqh cannot adapt to the likes of external opinion, regardless of the sources of such traditions.

Maybe for some it has a bad image, but for me it is the contrary to be honest. Acts of mourning and even letting blood shed may be sincere and genuine reactions of the sadness caused by remembering the tragic events and martyrdom of our Imam AS. Blessed are those who genuinely beat their chests. Religiously speaking there seem to be basis for it being permissible (Ayt. Shaikh Vahid, for instance, quoted some of the most prominent classic masters in Fiqh in defense of this matter, apart from the already mentioned marajis - you can easily find the text or video of this).

Politically speaking, I don't see why the opinions of some must affect the freedom of someone who wants to express his religious experiences and sensibilities through mourning (be it in the form of chest beating or cutting or whatever).

I hold this opinion even after having developed certain dislike for tatbir because of being exposed to many people who did chest beating in extreme ways as if it was a sport competition. I acknowledge, however, that the majority are not like this, and their practices shall be respected and even defended.

Edited by Bakir

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7 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

hi Mutah has confirmation from quran & Sunni & shia hadithes so couldnt ban easily  but Tatbir is just a tradition that doesnt have strong base & nowadays has made bad Image of shia Islam and if you give your blood in way of Imam hussain (as) I recommend you  free donating blood that has more positive benefit & Image for Shia Islam & Imam hussain(as).

I think what brother @Bakir said is right on point. 

6 hours ago, Bakir said:

Fiqh cannot adapt to the likes of external opinion, regardless of the sources of such traditions.

What would you say @Ashvazdanghe to the maraji who support Tatbir?

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The Shirazi Cult that supports  Tatbir supports by GB&Israel in Nigeria that Sheikh Zakzaki converts 25 milion Nigerians by free blood donation arrested by Nigeria government &still his condition is vague but guys like Yaser Al Habib, Allahyari  & others that spread hatred among muslims &supports Tatbir backups with GB that shifts the Sunni muslims to wahabism

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1 minute ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

The Shirazi Cult that supports  Tatbir supports by GB&Israel 

Did you know that Sheikh Nimr (ra) was a follower of Sayed Muhammad Shirazi until 2001, when Shirazi died? Would you dare call him a cult member??? And I don't know what Israel has to do with this, Sayed Shirazi says that Israel is an illegitimate state.

4 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Sheikh Zakzaki converts 25 milion Nigerians by free blood donation arrested by Nigeria government &still his condition is vague

Sheikh Zakzaky, May Allah keep him safe, is entitled to his own opinion about Tatbir. That doesn't make him more or less of a respectable person.

4 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Yaser Al Habib, Allahyari  & others that spread hatred among muslims &supports Tatbir backups with GB that shifts the Sunni muslims to wahabism

Sheikh al-Habib and Sheikh Allahyari aren't agents lol. If you have proof of them being agents then come show me. Sunni's are becoming Shia thanks to the two Sheikh's spreading the truth about the Sunni sect. Why do you not want your Sunni brothers to come to the truth?

I don't think Allahyari and Yasser al-Habib are the topic here. I want to know what ahadith and arguments the scholars who support Tatbir justify this upon.

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1 minute ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

You can see them on www.tatbir.org

What about the many well-educated scholars who support this. Ayatollah Wahid Khorasani, Sheikh Ishaq al-Fayyadh, Sayed Shirazi, Sheikh Bashir Najafi....

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They say it do it until this isn't  cause problems for Shia community and make bad public Image for them that gives a tool to hands of Wahabists&ISIS to genocide Shias if you want do it anyway it's better do it in private not public to protect other Shias that doesn't do it & are under attack of Wahabists&ISIS

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Just now, Ashvazdanghe said:

bad public Image

Mutah gives us a worse public image.

Actually.... do you not think our Arba'een marches are not threatening to the average mindless wahhabi on his quest for 72 virgins? They don't just look at Tatbir. They attack us for our ziyarah, mutah, even the way we pray in salah. Until the end they will attack us, so why not just get rid of all these practices?

Quran 2:120

And the Jews will not be pleased with you, nor the Christians until you follow their religion. Say; “Surely Allah's guidance, that is the (true) guidance”. And if you follow their desires after the knowledge that has come to you, you shall have no guardian from Allah, nor any helper.

From Tafsir al-Mizan: "

It follows that what the Prophet has got is knowledge, and what they hold in their hands is ignorance. Therefore, Allah says to the Prophet: “And if you follow their desires after the knowledge that has come to you, you shall have no guardian from Allah, nor any helper.”
One cannot help admiring this verse:

How logical, solid and well-grounded is the argument it offers; how many fine points of eloquence it holds, in spite of its brevity; how lovely is the language and how clear is the style!!"

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8 minutes ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

Tatbir was invented much later. The Imam (AS) did not do it. 

In Bihar al-Anwar and in other books like Kamil az-Ziyarat it's reported: 
Imam Ja'far (as): All grief (jaza) and weeping is disliked, except for grief and weeping over Husayn bin Ali (as).

The word translated for grief (jaza), means extreme grief. So any form which doesn't involve haram acts (like killing yourself) would be considered allowed. This is the argument Sayed Ridha Shirazi (ra) used in the video I posted in the OP, and I believe Sayed al-Khoei (ra) also mentioned it.

Did the Imams (as) do Arba'een marches, or blood donations?

Edited by Mansur Bakhtiari

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The mutah &Arbaeen walk is introduced from Our Imams if you search about five sign of believer (momin)in Imams view is Arbaeen walk  from al-mizan meaning doing Tatbir is following the desires so who do it will not receive protection from Allah & he is by himself.

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Just now, Ashvazdanghe said:

The mutah &Arbaeen walk is introduced from Our Imams if you search about five sign of believer (momin)in Imams view is Arbaeen walk  from al-mizan meaning doing Tatbir is following the desires so who do it will not receive protection from Allah & he is by himself.

No, arbaeen marches. The hadith says about visiting the actual shrine of Imam Husayn (as). But here in Canada they've had Arba'een marches in Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal and other big cities, just to show loyalty to Imam Husayn (as). Did the Imams (as) do this?

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The blood donation is a positive way of mourning nowadays when our blood that is enriched by love of Imam Hussain (as) is transferred to another person our love why we waste this valuable blood on earth.

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