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Imam Ali letter to Mu'awiya?

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Verily, those who swore allegiance to Abu Bakr, `Umar and `Uthman have sworn allegiance 1 to me on the same basis on which they swore allegiance to them. (On this basis) he who was present has no choice (to consider), and he who was absent has no right to reject; and consultation is confined to the muhajirun and the ansar. If they agree on an individual and take him to be Caliph it will be deemed to mean Allah's pleasure.

If any one keeps away by way of objection or innovation they will return him to the position from where he kept away. If he refuses they will fight him for following a course other than that of the believers and Allah will put him back from where he had run away.

By my life, O Mu'awiyah, if you see with your intellect without any passion you will find me the most innocent of all in respect of `Uthman's blood and you will surely know that I was in seclusion from him, unless you conceal what is quite open to you (and accuse me of a crime I have not committed). Then you may commit any outrage (on me) as you wish and that is an end to the matter.

-----

Does this message confirms the legitimacy of Abu Bakr and Umar?  

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On 11/4/2017 at 11:12 AM, M.IB said:

Does this message confirms the legitimacy of Abu Bakr and Umar?  

Not at all in any manner.  It does not  make legitimacy of earlier caliphs.

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-2-letters-and-sayings/letter-6-muawiyah-ibn-abi-sufyan

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On 11/4/2017 at 11:12 AM, M.IB said:

Verily, those who swore allegiance to Abu Bakr, `Umar and `Uthman have sworn allegiance 1 to me on the same basis on which they swore allegiance to them. (On this basis) he who was present has no choice (to consider), and he who was absent has no right to reject; and consultation is confined to the muhajirun and the ansar. If they agree on an individual and take him to be Caliph it will be deemed to mean Allah's pleasure.

If any one keeps away by way of objection or innovation they will return him to the position from where he kept away. If he refuses they will fight him for following a course other than that of the believers and Allah will put him back from where he had run away.

By my life, O Mu'awiyah, if you see with your intellect without any passion you will find me the most innocent of all in respect of `Uthman's blood and you will surely know that I was in seclusion from him, unless you conceal what is quite open to you (and accuse me of a crime I have not committed). Then you may commit any outrage (on me) as you wish and that is an end to the matter.

-----

Does this message confirms the legitimacy of Abu Bakr and Umar?  

This argument is mostly used by the Sunnis. Are you a Sunni?

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No, this letter is telling that the people who swore allegiance to them they swore allegiance to me, you accepted them now you should accept me. What I think

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On 11/4/2017 at 12:43 PM, power said:

This argument is mostly used by the Sunnis. Are you a Sunni?

No brother, I am a ithna-'ashari Shi'i, but I want to know how we can refute this to sunnis.

On 11/4/2017 at 11:12 AM, M.IB said:

(On this basis) he who was present has no choice (to consider), and he who was absent has no right to reject; and consultation is confined to the muhajirun and the ansar. If they agree on an individual and take him to be Caliph it will be deemed to mean Allah's pleasure.

This is the big point, how can we refute this?

Wassalam. 

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On 11/4/2017 at 1:43 PM, M.IB said:

No brother, I am a ithna-'ashari Shi'i, but I want to know how we can refute this to sunnis.

This is the big point, how can we refute this?

Wassalam. 

  •  When all the people of Medina unanimously swore allegiance to Amir al-mu`minin, Mu`awiyah refused to acquiesce apprehending danger for his own power, and in order to contest Amir al-mu'minin's caliphate he concocted the excuse that it had not been agreed to unanimously and that therefore after cancelling it there should be another general election, although the caliphate from which (the process of) election was started was the result of a timely situation. There was no question of the common vote therein so that it could be called the result of the people's election. However, it was imposed on the people and assumed to be their verdict. From then it became a principle that whomever the nobles of Medina elected would be deemed to represent the entire world of Islam and no person would be allowed to question it, whether he was present at the time of election or not. In any case, after the establishment of the principle, Mu`awiyah had no right to propose a re-election nor to refuse allegiance when he had in practice recognized these caliphates which, it was alleged, had been settled by the important people of Medina. That is why when he held this election to be invalid and refused allegiance,

  • Amir al-mu'minin pointed out to him the (recognized) way of election and demolished his argument. It was a method known as arguing with the adversary on the basis of his wrong premises so as to demolish his argument, since Amir al-mu'minin never at any state regarded consultation (with chiefs) or the common vote to be the criterion of validity of the caliphate. Otherwise, in connection with the caliphate about which it is alleged that they were based on the unanimity of the muhajirun and the ansar, he would have regarded that unanimity of vote as a good authority and held them as valid; but his refusal for allegiance in the very first period, which cannot be denied by anyone, is a proof of the fact that he did not regard these self-concocted methods as the criterion of (validity of) the caliphate. That is why at all times he continued pressing his own case for the caliphate, which was also established on the basis of the Prophet's saying and deeds. However, to place it before Mu`awiyah meant opening the door to questions and answers. He therefore attempted to convince him with his own premises and beliefs so that there could be no scope for interpretation or for confusing the matter, in fact Mu'awiyah's real aim was to prolong the matter so that at some point his own authority might get support.

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On 11/4/2017 at 11:12 AM, M.IB said:

Verily, those who swore allegiance to Abu Bakr, `Umar and `Uthman have sworn allegiance 1 to me on the same basis on which they swore allegiance to them. (On this basis) he who was present has no choice (to consider), and he who was absent has no right to reject; and consultation is confined to the muhajirun and the ansar. If they agree on an individual and take him to be Caliph it will be deemed to mean Allah's pleasure.

If any one keeps away by way of objection or innovation they will return him to the position from where he kept away. If he refuses they will fight him for following a course other than that of the believers and Allah will put him back from where he had run away.

By my life, O Mu'awiyah, if you see with your intellect without any passion you will find me the most innocent of all in respect of `Uthman's blood and you will surely know that I was in seclusion from him, unless you conceal what is quite open to you (and accuse me of a crime I have not committed). Then you may commit any outrage (on me) as you wish and that is an end to the matter.

-----

Does this message confirms the legitimacy of Abu Bakr and Umar?  

This letter is just saying that Imam Ali a.s has been paid allegiance according to the wishes of people as they wanted and as they pledge allegiance to people before. Since before that they denied the position of Allah AWJ when they reject Imam Ali a.s for Abu Bakar, but now they have taken allegiance according to their own devised method, so, why they refuted their own method and took alliance and then refuted it. It is implied to Bibi Ayesha and Muawyia who paid allegiance first and then made war against Imam Ali a.s.

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On 11/4/2017 at 11:12 AM, M.IB said:

Verily, those who swore allegiance to Abu Bakr, `Umar and `Uthman have sworn allegiance 1 to me on the same basis on which they swore allegiance to them. (On this basis) he who was present has no choice (to consider), and he who was absent has no right to reject; and consultation is confined to the muhajirun and the ansar. If they agree on an individual and take him to be Caliph it will be deemed to mean Allah's pleasure.

If any one keeps away by way of objection or innovation they will return him to the position from where he kept away. If he refuses they will fight him for following a course other than that of the believers and Allah will put him back from where he had run away.

By my life, O Mu'awiyah, if you see with your intellect without any passion you will find me the most innocent of all in respect of `Uthman's blood and you will surely know that I was in seclusion from him, unless you conceal what is quite open to you (and accuse me of a crime I have not committed). Then you may commit any outrage (on me) as you wish and that is an end to the matter.

-----

Does this message confirms the legitimacy of Abu Bakr and Umar?  

The most important part of this letter are following words:

 and consultation is confined to the muhajirun and the ansar. If they agree on an individual and take him to be Caliph it will be deemed to mean Allah's pleasure.

Allah's pleasure is with the one who is chosen by muhajirun and ansaar. Strong words. In other words after the finality of prophethood Allah's pleasure means which is agreed upon by muhajirun and ansaar. You will not get any direct command from Allah swt after the end of prophethood showing you that what Allah swt want to be the caliph by taking his name.

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On 11/7/2017 at 1:05 AM, Munzir Ahmed said:

The most important part of this letter are following words:

 and consultation is confined to the muhajirun and the ansar. If they agree on an individual and take him to be Caliph it will be deemed to mean Allah's pleasure.

Allah's pleasure is with the one who is chosen by muhajirun and ansaar. Strong words. In other words after the finality of prophethood Allah's pleasure means which is agreed upon by muhajirun and ansaar. You will not get any direct command from Allah swt after the end of prophethood showing you that what Allah swt want to be the caliph by taking his name.

I await the verse of quran for your such claim denying the established verses of quran that people can choose caliph instead of Allah swt for their guidance.

 When all the people of Medina unanimously swore allegiance to Amir al-mu`minin, Mu`awiyah refused to acquiesce apprehending danger for his own power, and in order to contest Amir al-mu'minin's caliphate he concocted the excuse that it had not been agreed to unanimously and that therefore after cancelling it there should be another general election, although the caliphate from which (the process of) election was started was the result of a timely situation. There was no question of the common vote therein so that it could be called the result of the people's election. However, it was imposed on the people and assumed to be their verdict. From then it became a principle that whomever the nobles of Medina elected would be deemed to represent the entire world of Islam and no person would be allowed to question it, whether he was present at the time of election or not. In any case, after the establishment of the principle, Mu`awiyah had no right to propose a re-election nor to refuse allegiance when he had in practice recognized these caliphates which, it was alleged, had been settled by the important people of Medina. That is why when he held this election to be invalid and refused allegiance,

Amir al-mu'minin pointed out to him the (recognized) way of election and demolished his argument. It was a method known as arguing with the adversary on the basis of his wrong premises so as to demolish his argument, since Amir al-mu'minin never at any state regarded consultation (with chiefs) or the common vote to be the criterion of validity of the caliphate. Otherwise, in connection with the caliphate about which it is alleged that they were based on the unanimity of the muhajirun and the ansar, he would have regarded that unanimity of vote as a good authority and held them as valid; but his refusal for allegiance in the very first period, which cannot be denied by anyone, is a proof of the fact that he did not regard these self-concocted methods as the criterion of (validity of) the caliphate. That is why at all times he continued pressing his own case for the caliphate, which was also established on the basis of the Prophet's saying and deeds. However, to place it before Mu`awiyah meant opening the door to questions and answers. He therefore attempted to convince him with his own premises and beliefs so that there could be no scope for interpretation or for confusing the matter, in fact Mu'awiyah's real aim was to prolong the matter so that at some point his own authority might get support.

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-2-letters-and-sayings/letter-6-muawiyah-ibn-abi-sufyan#f_6473e663_1

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On 11/8/2017 at 6:59 AM, skyweb1987 said:

I await the verse of quran for your such claim denying the established verses of quran that people can choose caliph instead of Allah swt for their guidance.

 When all the people of Medina unanimously swore allegiance to Amir al-mu`minin, Mu`awiyah refused to acquiesce apprehending danger for his own power, and in order to contest Amir al-mu'minin's caliphate he concocted the excuse that it had not been agreed to unanimously and that therefore after cancelling it there should be another general election, although the caliphate from which (the process of) election was started was the result of a timely situation. There was no question of the common vote therein so that it could be called the result of the people's election. However, it was imposed on the people and assumed to be their verdict. From then it became a principle that whomever the nobles of Medina elected would be deemed to represent the entire world of Islam and no person would be allowed to question it, whether he was present at the time of election or not. In any case, after the establishment of the principle, Mu`awiyah had no right to propose a re-election nor to refuse allegiance when he had in practice recognized these caliphates which, it was alleged, had been settled by the important people of Medina. That is why when he held this election to be invalid and refused allegiance,

Amir al-mu'minin pointed out to him the (recognized) way of election and demolished his argument. It was a method known as arguing with the adversary on the basis of his wrong premises so as to demolish his argument, since Amir al-mu'minin never at any state regarded consultation (with chiefs) or the common vote to be the criterion of validity of the caliphate. Otherwise, in connection with the caliphate about which it is alleged that they were based on the unanimity of the muhajirun and the ansar, he would have regarded that unanimity of vote as a good authority and held them as valid; but his refusal for allegiance in the very first period, which cannot be denied by anyone, is a proof of the fact that he did not regard these self-concocted methods as the criterion of (validity of) the caliphate. That is why at all times he continued pressing his own case for the caliphate, which was also established on the basis of the Prophet's saying and deeds. However, to place it before Mu`awiyah meant opening the door to questions and answers. He therefore attempted to convince him with his own premises and beliefs so that there could be no scope for interpretation or for confusing the matter, in fact Mu'awiyah's real aim was to prolong the matter so that at some point his own authority might get support.

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-2-letters-and-sayings/letter-6-muawiyah-ibn-abi-sufyan#f_6473e663_1

As you can clearly see this explanation is missing the most important part of the letter, as I said:

On 11/7/2017 at 1:05 AM, Munzir Ahmed said:
The most important part of this letter are following words:

 and consultation is confined to the muhajirun and the ansar. If they agree on an individual and take him to be Caliph it will be deemed to mean Allah's pleasure.

Allah's pleasure is with the one who is chosen by muhajirun and ansaar. Strong words. In other words after the finality of prophethood Allah's pleasure means which is agreed upon by muhajirun and ansaar. You will not get any direct command from Allah swt after the end of prophethood showing you that what Allah swt want to be the caliph by taking his name.

Imam Ali is saying this is deemed to mean pleasure of Allah and twelvers who claim all the time to follow him say otherwise and are following their assumed explanation like above. Why are twelvers against Allah's pleasure? I am eager to know this.

[EDIT] Focus on the red bold part above. Very clear and strong words.

This letter of Imam is one of the best proof on people can chose caliph. And they are not mine but Imam Ali's words. 

Here you and al-islam.org again are just picking and choosing words of Imam from this letter and are missing the most important part. May be you have nothing to do with Allah's pleasure. Simple is that.

Edited by Hameedeh
Insult removed.

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7 hours ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

Here you and al-islam.org again are just picking and choosing words of Imam from this letter and are missing the most important part. May be you have nothing to do with Allah's pleasure. Simple is that.

It was taqiyya, Muawiya was already close to invading Iraq, the Imam (a) just wanted to avoide bloodshed, by speaking this way to Muawiya who already accepted Abu Bakr and Umar and Uthman, this letter's name is "Hajijuhum bi ma alzamu anfusahum" Talk to the in their own logic, Muawiya's logic is shura/elections. 

Edited by M.IB

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On 11/8/2017 at 6:59 AM, skyweb1987 said:

I await the verse of quran for your such claim denying the established verses of quran that people can choose caliph instead of Allah swt for their guidance.

No answer to the question that needs reply. 

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On 11/9/2017 at 9:06 AM, skyweb1987 said:

No answer to the question that needs reply. 

 

 

Your all points are answered above. The core on which your question is based has been refuted.

I am with the pleasure of Allah. [EDIT]

On 11/9/2017 at 12:48 AM, Munzir Ahmed said:
On 11/7/2017 at 1:05 AM, Munzir Ahmed said:
The most important part of this letter are following words:

 and consultation is confined to the muhajirun and the ansar. If they agree on an individual and take him to be Caliph it will be deemed to mean Allah's pleasure.

Allah's pleasure is with the one who is chosen by muhajirun and ansaar. Strong words. In other words after the finality of prophethood Allah's pleasure means which is agreed upon by muhajirun and ansaar. You will not get any direct command from Allah swt after the end of prophethood showing you that what Allah swt want to be the caliph by taking his name.

Imam Ali is saying this is deemed to mean pleasure of Allah and twelvers who claim all the time to follow him say otherwise and are following their assumed explanation like above. Why are twelvers against Allah's pleasure? I am eager to know this.

[EDIT] Focus on the red bold part above. Very clear and strong words.

This letter of Imam is one of the best proof on people can chose caliph. And they are not mine but Imam Ali's words. 

Here you and al-islam.org again are just picking and choosing words of Imam from this letter and are missing the most important part. May be you have nothing to do with Allah's pleasure. Simple is that.

Edited by Hameedeh
Insults removed.

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13 hours ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

Your all points are answered above. The core on which your question is based has been refuted.

1. No verse is available with you from the quran to mention and justify the people chosen caliph for the guidance of the people instead of Allah swt.

2. Imam Ali has not written only this letter but there are about 16 letters written to Muawiya (available in  Nehjul balagah). . if you consider the part of the letter mentioned above  has given some evidence of selection of early caliphs by the people you are at wrong. The words of imam Ali for such rejection have been mentioned in his sayings and other letters, I quote his words below:to clarify it further:

The credit which you want to take away from us and the honour which you want to deprive us of is the one which the Holy Qur’an is carefully guarding for us. It says: “Some relatives are superior and have excellence over others, according to the Book of Allah” [ Qur’an, 33:6 ] and in another place in the very same Book, Allah informs mankind that: “The nearest people to Abraham, are those who follow him and those who follow the Holy Prophet (s) and the true believers.
Allah is the guardian of the true believers” [ Qur’an, 2:68 ]. Therefore we hold two excellences: That of close relationship to the Holy Prophet (s) and that of loyally accepting his teachings. Do you know on the day of Saqifa, Muhajirs told Ansar that they were superior to them because they in one way or the other, were related to the Holy Prophet (s) and therefore they deserved the caliphate and with the aid of this argument the Muhajirs carried the day. If success can be achieved with the help of this argument and if it has got a grain of truth in it then according it, we and not you, deserve the caliphate. If not, then the Ansar still hold their claim over the caliphate.

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-2-letters-and-sayings/letter-28-reply-muawiyah-and-it-one-ot-his-most-elegant

Were the three caliphs more nearer to the prophet than Ahl alabayt? Certainly not the progeny of the prophet saww are kept protected while all others of the ummah are not. This is clear ejction of the words what happened at saqifa or other in the name of Shuara / cosnultation.

3.  Also the following words of imam Ali AS are not deniable proof  and rejection of saqifa and Shura done for the selection of early caliphs:

Beware! By Allah, the son of Abu Quhafah (Abu Bakr)2 dressed himself with it (the caliphate) and he certainly knew that my position in relation to it was the same as the position of the axis in relation to the hand-mill. The flood water flows down from me and the bird cannot fly upto me. I put a curtain against the caliphate and kept myself detached from it.

.......I found that endurance thereon was wiser. So I adopted patience although there was [Edited Out]ing in the eye and suffocation (of mortification) in the throat. I watched the plundering of my inheritance till the first one went his way but handed over the Caliphate to Ibn al-Khattab after himself.

.........It is strange that during his lifetime he wished to be released from the caliphate but he confirmed it for the other one after his death. No doubt these two shared its udders strictly among themselves. This one put the Caliphate in a tough enclosure where the utterance was haughty and the touch was rough. Mistakes were in plenty and so also the excuses therefore. One in contact with it was like the rider of an unruly camel. If he pulled up its rein the very nostril would be slit, but if he let it loose he would be thrown. Consequently, by Allah people got involved in recklessness, wickedness, unsteadiness and deviation.

Nevertheless, I remained patient despite length of period and stiffness of trial, till when he went his way (of death) he put the matter (of Caliphate) in a group4 and regarded me to be one of them. But good Heavens! What had I to do with this “consultation”? Where was any doubt about me with regard to the first of them that I was now considered akin to these ones? But I remained low when they were low and flew high when they flew high.

(Sermon 3 nehjul balagah)

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-3-Allah-son-abu-quhafah

4.  Yes you are not like us and I think you can not be because our hearts are filled with truth and not with Jibte waat Taghoot.:

wasalam

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On 11/10/2017 at 5:05 AM, skyweb1987 said:

1. No verse is available with you from the quran to mention and justify the people chosen caliph for the guidance of the people instead of Allah swt.

2. Imam Ali has not written only this letter but there are about 16 letters written to Muawiya (available in  Nehjul balagah). . if you consider the part of the letter mentioned above  has given some evidence of selection of early caliphs by the people you are at wrong. The words of imam Ali for such rejection have been mentioned in his sayings and other letters, I quote his words below:to clarify it further:

The credit which you want to take away from us and the honour which you want to deprive us of is the one which the Holy Qur’an is carefully guarding for us. It says: “Some relatives are superior and have excellence over others, according to the Book of Allah” [ Qur’an, 33:6 ] and in another place in the very same Book, Allah informs mankind that: “The nearest people to Abraham, are those who follow him and those who follow the Holy Prophet (s) and the true believers.
Allah is the guardian of the true believers” [ Qur’an, 2:68 ]. Therefore we hold two excellences: That of close relationship to the Holy Prophet (s) and that of loyally accepting his teachings. Do you know on the day of Saqifa, Muhajirs told Ansar that they were superior to them because they in one way or the other, were related to the Holy Prophet (s) and therefore they deserved the caliphate and with the aid of this argument the Muhajirs carried the day. If success can be achieved with the help of this argument and if it has got a grain of truth in it then according it, we and not you, deserve the caliphate. If not, then the Ansar still hold their claim over the caliphate.

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-2-letters-and-sayings/letter-28-reply-muawiyah-and-it-one-ot-his-most-elegant

Were the three caliphs more nearer to the prophet than Ahl alabayt? Certainly not the progeny of the prophet saww are kept protected while all others of the ummah are not. This is clear ejction of the words what happened at saqifa or other in the name of Shuara / cosnultation.

3.  Also the following words of imam Ali AS are not deniable proof  and rejection of saqifa and Shura done for the selection of early caliphs:

Beware! By Allah, the son of Abu Quhafah (Abu Bakr)2 dressed himself with it (the caliphate) and he certainly knew that my position in relation to it was the same as the position of the axis in relation to the hand-mill. The flood water flows down from me and the bird cannot fly upto me. I put a curtain against the caliphate and kept myself detached from it.

.......I found that endurance thereon was wiser. So I adopted patience although there was [Edited Out]ing in the eye and suffocation (of mortification) in the throat. I watched the plundering of my inheritance till the first one went his way but handed over the Caliphate to Ibn al-Khattab after himself.

.........It is strange that during his lifetime he wished to be released from the caliphate but he confirmed it for the other one after his death. No doubt these two shared its udders strictly among themselves. This one put the Caliphate in a tough enclosure where the utterance was haughty and the touch was rough. Mistakes were in plenty and so also the excuses therefore. One in contact with it was like the rider of an unruly camel. If he pulled up its rein the very nostril would be slit, but if he let it loose he would be thrown. Consequently, by Allah people got involved in recklessness, wickedness, unsteadiness and deviation.

Nevertheless, I remained patient despite length of period and stiffness of trial, till when he went his way (of death) he put the matter (of Caliphate) in a group4 and regarded me to be one of them. But good Heavens! What had I to do with this “consultation”? Where was any doubt about me with regard to the first of them that I was now considered akin to these ones? But I remained low when they were low and flew high when they flew high.

(Sermon 3 nehjul balagah)

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-3-Allah-son-abu-quhafah

4.  Yes you are not like us and I think you can not be because our hearts are filled with truth and not with Jibte waat Taghoot.:

wasalam

1. Let me clarify once again that for guidance it is Book of Allah and sayings of Prophet, job of caliph is to work within the boundaries of these two. Not to recieve any new guidance from Allah and to deliver it to people. Thus obediecne to caliph/ulil amr is made conditional, see Nisa 59.

Verse is available as I shown you in other thread which is verifiable as well from prophetic ahadith, words of Imam Ali, from history and from sayings of a vast number of prophetic companions. Unlike the system of imamah which is nothing but a derivation from some unambiguous and unrelated verses of quran, which also has no any basis in ahadith rasool and in the history.

I am quoting those verses here again.

[36-43] Whatever you have been given, is merely a provision for the transitory life of this world, and that which is with Allah is better as well as more lasting. That is for those who have believed and put their trust in their Lord. Who refrain from gross sins and indecencies. Who, when they are angry, forgive. Who obey their Lord, establish the Salat, and conduct their affairs by mutual consultation. Who spend out of what We have given them a sustenance. Who, when they are oppressed, help and defend themselves. The recompense of evil is a like evil, then whoever pardons and seeks reconcilement, his reward is with Allah. Allah does not like the wrongdoers. And those who avenge themselves after they have been wronged, cannot be held blameworthy, for blameworthy indeed are those who oppress others and commit excesses in the land without any right. For such people there is a painful torment. However, the one who practices patience and is forgiving. these indeed are works of great courage and resolution.

Here it is mentioned as on eof the quality of believers among others. You accept all other qualities but not this one. Caliphate is the most important of all affairs. 

[159-160] (O Messenger,) it is a great mercy of Allah that you are very gentle and lenient towards them: for, had you been harsh and hard hearted, they all would have broken away from you: so pardon them and implore Allah to forgive them, and take counsel with them in the conduct of the affairs; then, when once you make up your mind (to do a thing), trust in Allah (and do it). Allah likes those who trust in Him in whatever they do. If Allah helps you, no power can overcome you, and if He forsakes you, who is there, then, after Him to help you? Therefore, true believers should trust in Allah alone.

This is the system of government mentioned in quran and is described as one of the best qulaity of believers, unlike imamah. Letter 6 of Imam Ali mentioned in OP also supports this and declare is as the pleasure of Allah.


2. The other letters you shared neither negate or refute this consultation nor it support your claims for imamah. Imam Ali did not use the argument to any previous caliph and not even to muawiya that only Allah has the right to choose imam/caliph after prophet and that is me and after me my son Hassan, and after him my another son Hussain and son on (which is your theory). Truth is that Imam Ali wholeheatedly accepted this system and gave his bayah without any force or hindrance to all previous caliphs and when he himself became the caliph by the same process he also defended it and declared it right of muhajirun and ansaar and said it is with the pleasure of Allah. This argument is much more stronger and clearer than the other letter you shared which also mention wrong facts. Rather Muhajirun at saqifa praised and acknowledged the merits of ansaar and quoted the prophetic hadith which say caliphate remains with the quresh. Thus this letter carries no weight.

And the interpretation for letter 6 given here https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-2-letters-and-sayings/letter-6-muawiyah-ibn-abi-sufyan is just a comment by some random person (not by Imam himself). So its nothing but just an assumed meaning which  carry no weight in front of clear words of Imam Ali. If you ask any primary school child even he will tell you what does it actually mean.

Honestly speaking, vast part of nahjul balagha confirms, verify and supports the system of consultation ascompared to divine imamah. Proof for such claim is here

[EDIT]


3. So Imam Ali had no courage to say the same on face of those usurprs but was able to lift the giant door of khaybar all alone. Btw: this as well do not mention your golden argument that only Allah can choose the caliph and that chosen caliph is me (Imam Ali). Moreover, if you compare this to letter 6 then it portray Imam Ali as a hypocrite. Because if Imam ALi considered saqifa and shura process invalid and against Allah's permission (your narrative as per your sources) then it make him a hypocrite by getting the caliphate till his last breath by the same process and using this as an argument to legitimate himself in front of muawiya as per letter 6 and calling it pleasure of Allah there.

Following quote from the author of most famous & modern shia tafsir Al-Mizan is also consistant with letter 6 and to ahlul sunnah narrative.

Shia Ayatollah Mohammad Hussain Tabatabai said:

This group (the one who chosed Abu Bakr) which was later to form the majority, set forth in great haste to select caliph for the Muslims with the aim of ensuring the welfare of the community and solving its immediate problems.

Source: A series of islam and shia» p 56, 1-st edition

Edited by Hameedeh
Link to banned website was removed.

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16 minutes ago, Munzir Ahmed said:


3. So Imam Ali had no courage to say the same on face of those usurprs but was able to lift the giant door of khaybar all alone. Btw: this as well do not mention your golden argument that only Allah can choose the caliph and that chosen caliph is me (Imam Ali). Moreover, if you compare this to letter 6 then it portray Imam Ali as a hypocrite. Because if Imam ALi considered saqifa and shura process invalid and against Allah's permission (your narrative as per your sources) then it make him a hypocrite by getting the caliphate till his last breath by the same process and using this as an argument to legitimate himself in front of muawiya as per letter 6 and calling it pleasure of Allah there.

Following quote from the author of most famous & modern shia tafsir Al-Mizan is also consistant with letter 6 and to ahlul sunnah narrative.

Shia Ayatollah Mohammad Hussain Tabatabai said:

This group (the one who chosed Abu Bakr) which was later to form the majority, set forth in great haste to select caliph for the Muslims with the aim of ensuring the welfare of the community and solving its immediate problems.

Source: A series of islam and shia» p 56, 1-st edition

The response completely neglects the sayings of Imam Ali AS as mentioned in letter No. 28 and sermon no. 3  thus we do negate all the irrelevant stuff.

Edited by skyweb1987

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6 minutes ago, skyweb1987 said:

The response completely neglects the sayings of Imam Ali AS as mentioned in letter No. 28 and sermon no. 3  thus we do negate all the irrelevant stuff.

Read all points with open mind. Dont always pick and choose. May Allah guide you.

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On 11/10/2017 at 3:05 PM, skyweb1987 said:

1. No verse is available with you from the quran to mention and justify the people chosen caliph for the guidance of the people instead of Allah swt.

2. Imam Ali has not written only this letter but there are about 16 letters written to Muawiya (available in  Nehjul balagah). . if you consider the part of the letter mentioned above  has given some evidence of selection of early caliphs by the people you are at wrong. The words of imam Ali for such rejection have been mentioned in his sayings and other letters, I quote his words below:to clarify it further:

The credit which you want to take away from us and the honour which you want to deprive us of is the one which the Holy Qur’an is carefully guarding for us. It says: “Some relatives are superior and have excellence over others, according to the Book of Allah” [ Qur’an, 33:6 ] and in another place in the very same Book, Allah informs mankind that: “The nearest people to Abraham, are those who follow him and those who follow the Holy Prophet (s) and the true believers.
Allah is the guardian of the true believers” [ Qur’an, 2:68 ]. Therefore we hold two excellences: That of close relationship to the Holy Prophet (s) and that of loyally accepting his teachings. Do you know on the day of Saqifa, Muhajirs told Ansar that they were superior to them because they in one way or the other, were related to the Holy Prophet (s) and therefore they deserved the caliphate and with the aid of this argument the Muhajirs carried the day. If success can be achieved with the help of this argument and if it has got a grain of truth in it then according it, we and not you, deserve the caliphate. If not, then the Ansar still hold their claim over the caliphate.

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-2-letters-and-sayings/letter-28-reply-muawiyah-and-it-one-ot-his-most-elegant

Were the three caliphs more nearer to the prophet than Ahl alabayt? Certainly not the progeny of the prophet saww are kept protected while all others of the ummah are not. This is clear ejction of the words what happened at saqifa or other in the name of Shuara / cosnultation.

3.  Also the following words of imam Ali AS are not deniable proof  and rejection of saqifa and Shura done for the selection of early caliphs:

Beware! By Allah, the son of Abu Quhafah (Abu Bakr)2 dressed himself with it (the caliphate) and he certainly knew that my position in relation to it was the same as the position of the axis in relation to the hand-mill. The flood water flows down from me and the bird cannot fly upto me. I put a curtain against the caliphate and kept myself detached from it.

.......I found that endurance thereon was wiser. So I adopted patience although there was [Edited Out]ing in the eye and suffocation (of mortification) in the throat. I watched the plundering of my inheritance till the first one went his way but handed over the Caliphate to Ibn al-Khattab after himself.

.........It is strange that during his lifetime he wished to be released from the caliphate but he confirmed it for the other one after his death. No doubt these two shared its udders strictly among themselves. This one put the Caliphate in a tough enclosure where the utterance was haughty and the touch was rough. Mistakes were in plenty and so also the excuses therefore. One in contact with it was like the rider of an unruly camel. If he pulled up its rein the very nostril would be slit, but if he let it loose he would be thrown. Consequently, by Allah people got involved in recklessness, wickedness, unsteadiness and deviation.

Nevertheless, I remained patient despite length of period and stiffness of trial, till when he went his way (of death) he put the matter (of Caliphate) in a group4 and regarded me to be one of them. But good Heavens! What had I to do with this “consultation”? Where was any doubt about me with regard to the first of them that I was now considered akin to these ones? But I remained low when they were low and flew high when they flew high.

(Sermon 3 nehjul balagah)

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-3-Allah-son-abu-quhafah

4.  Yes you are not like us and I think you can not be because our hearts are filled with truth and not with Jibte waat Taghoot.:

wasalam

The words of Imam Ali AS provides the guidance for those intend to look  the truth.

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