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E.L King

Sufism, poetry and fisq/kufr

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The Poems are not based on Aqeedah but spiritual experience. When they talk about Love is love for Allah. The "homo" poems as OP described Is referring to Allah. You're not supposed to take the poems as creed but to feel it. You feel with the heart. This is the problem. Aql is not solely intellect of the mind but also the intellect of the heart. That's why we call Atheists stupid because they try to perceive everything with the head but they forget that the heart also have a intellect.

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54 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

To me, one thing is sure i.e., Allah do not will and do not command evil. He is the Owner & Bestower of "Kull-e-Khayr".

Our position is this matter (Predestination & Freewill) is sensitive because we neither believe in complete "Jabr" (Compulsion) nor believe in complete "Ikhtiyar" (freedom), we take the middle way.

We need to see where we stand on the matter of "Jabr-e-Mashi'at"? What is our concept of life & death? We need to see if there is "Jabr-e-Mashi'at" in this sphere or not, as Roomi discussing the death of Imam Ali (a.s) in his mathnawi.

It was the strike of Ibn-e-Muljim (L) that injured Imam Ali (a.s) & that was one of the cause of his martyrdom. The crime committed by Ibn-e-Muljim, not by Allah, so I am not going to defend Roomi for literal meanings of words he has used in mathnawi. But what I feel is that he has said all this in context to verse 4:78 while what you're saying is in accordance with verse 4:79.  

Lets see what he is saying:

"The Prophet said in the ear of my servant that one day he would sever this head of mine from my neck.

The Prophet by (Divine) inspiration informed my friend that in the end my destruction would be (wrought) by his hand. He (my friend) says, ‘Kill me first, in order that this hateful crime may not proceed from me.’
I say, ‘Since my death is (to come) from you, how can I seek to evade the destiny (of God)?’
 
He falls before me, saying, ‘O generous man, for God's sake cleave me in twain,"


"He that knows how to sew (together) knows how to tear (asunder); whatsoever
 
He sells, He buys (something) better (in exchange).
 
He lays the house in ruins, upside down; then in one moment He makes it more habitable (than it was before).
 
If He sever one head from the body, He at once raises up hundreds of thousands of heads (for the beheaded person). If He had not ordained a retaliation upon the guilty, or if He had not said, “In retaliation there is (for you) a life,”
Who would have the stomach (would dare) of himself (on his own responsibility) to wield (draw) a sword against him that is a thrall to the decree of God?—"


Lets see the verse 4:78 once again:

Wherever you are, death will overtake you, though you are in lofty towers, and if a benefit comes to them the say: This is from Allah; and if a misfortune befalls them, they say: This is from you. Say: All is from Allah, but what is the matter with these people that they do not make approach to understanding what is told (them)?


How can you explain "Say: All is from Allah" (whether a benefit or misfortune)? And how can you explain the following statement of Sheikh Mufid keeping in view the verse 4:78?
 

 

 

So it seems you do disagree with Shaykh Al-Mufid (rah) then. I have seen commentary of this Verse, and what I have seen is that they say this is related to misfortune (sickness, poverty, drought etc..) not things like murder and fornication.

 Have you changed your opinion now, do you now think Allah wills evil?

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@E.L King, in continuation of my previous post & reference of verse 4:78 & 4:79, I found this in the tafseer of Agha Mehdi Poya:

"This verse throws light on the doctrines of determinism and free-will, a controversial issue in philosophy, theology, ethics and jurisprudence. The act of obedience and seeking help prove that human being exercise freedom of choice, and, therefore, are responsible for their actions, because they are not passive targets of Allah's activity, but have been given free-will by Allah to make their own decisions and act upon them. Their free-will and its outcome are conditioned by Allah's will, order and providence. The will of Allah does not directly determine the deeds of creatures, making the creatures' will entirely ineffective, in which case they would not be responsible for their actions, as the determinists say. It is true that the creatures cannot exercise absolute free-will because their actions and judgements have to abide by the laws created and enforced by the will of Allah as explained earlier while making clear the meaning of the word taqdir. As Imam Muhammad bin Ali al Baqir has said there is no predetermination as far as the activity of the created beings is concerned but every action is conditioned by the laws, made by Allah, operating the creation, so there can be no unbridled use of freedom. It is a conciliation between freedom of action and complying with the will of Allah.

In the Quran the predominance of Allah's will is mentioned to point out the overall supremacy of the laws made and enforced by Allah; and also the freedom of choice granted to man is confirmed to make it clear that although living beings have the freedom to do what they will, shouldering the responsibility of their actions, they cannot do away with the will of Allah. In common terminology it is a via media. Allah's activity can be described as "action", and the activity of the creature as "reaction". There cannot be a "reaction" without an "action". And if there is no "reaction" the action would be considered unproductive. In this sense Allah's action operates in the realm of creation to which the creatures, consciously or unconsciously, willingly or unwillingly, react. The action is conditioned by the nature of the "actor". The divine action, the outcome of Allah's boundless grace, can be nothing but pure good, but the reaction of the finite creature may take a different course and produce evil for which the bad receptivity of the finite creature should be held responsible. The Quran says:

Whatever good befalls you (O man) it is from Allah, and whatever of evil befalls you, it is from yourself; (NISA: 79) "

I think this will help you to understand why I was saying the will of Allah must be there for any action (which is basically a reaction of creation) to happen. And with this, we can understand why Allama Majlisi has criticized Roomi.

2 minutes ago, E.L King said:

Have you changed your opinion now, do you now think Allah wills evil?

No I have not changed my mind. I believe He is Owner & Bestower of "Kull Khayr". 

I am thankful to you that with this discussions, I got the chance to review my opinion about predestination & free will. 
What I am pleased to see is that my personal opinion which you have mentioned as "disagreement with Sheikh" i.e., every happening requires the will of Allah (as mentioned in above red underline words), is correct and I am not in any disagreement with that great scholar.  

 

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4 minutes ago, E.L King said:

So it seems you do disagree with Shaykh Al-Mufid (rah) then. I have seen commentary of this Verse, and what I have seen is that they say this is related to misfortune (sickness, poverty, drought etc..) not things like murder and fornication.

 Have you changed your opinion now, do you now think Allah wills evil?

This is implying Allah can be described with the attributes of oppression. Such thing is ascribing a weakness to Him.

Read the next Verse: (4:79) Whatever good happens to you is from Allah; and whatever misfortune smites you is because of your own action. We have sent you to mankind (O Muhammad!) as a Messenger, and Allah is sufficient as a witness.

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1 minute ago, SunniBrother said:

This is implying Allah can be described with the attributes of oppression. Such thing is ascribing a weakness to Him.

Read the next Verse: (4:79) Whatever good happens to you is from Allah; and whatever misfortune smites you is because of your own action. We have sent you to mankind (O Muhammad!) as a Messenger, and Allah is sufficient as a witness.

It seems you have misunderstood this conversation. I am arguing that evil and oppression cannot be attributed to Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى, not the opposite.

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Just now, E.L King said:

It seems you have misunderstood this conversation. I am arguing that evil and oppression cannot be attributed to Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى, not the opposite.

I see. Pardon my misunderstanding.

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5 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

@E.L King, in continuation of my previous post & reference of verse 4:78 & 4:79, I found this in the tafseer of Agha Mehdi Poya:

"This verse throws light on the doctrines of determinism and free-will, a controversial issue in philosophy, theology, ethics and jurisprudence. The act of obedience and seeking help prove that human being exercise freedom of choice, and, therefore, are responsible for their actions, because they are not passive targets of Allah's activity, but have been given free-will by Allah to make their own decisions and act upon them. Their free-will and its outcome are conditioned by Allah's will, order and providence. The will of Allah does not directly determine the deeds of creatures, making the creatures' will entirely ineffective, in which case they would not be responsible for their actions, as the determinists say. It is true that the creatures cannot exercise absolute free-will because their actions and judgements have to abide by the laws created and enforced by the will of Allah as explained earlier while making clear the meaning of the word taqdir. As Imam Muhammad bin Ali al Baqir has said there is no predetermination as far as the activity of the created beings is concerned but every action is conditioned by the laws, made by Allah, operating the creation, so there can be no unbridled use of freedom. It is a conciliation between freedom of action and complying with the will of Allah.

In the Quran the predominance of Allah's will is mentioned to point out the overall supremacy of the laws made and enforced by Allah; and also the freedom of choice granted to man is confirmed to make it clear that although living beings have the freedom to do what they will, shouldering the responsibility of their actions, they cannot do away with the will of Allah. In common terminology it is a via media. Allah's activity can be described as "action", and the activity of the creature as "reaction". There cannot be a "reaction" without an "action". And if there is no "reaction" the action would be considered unproductive. In this sense Allah's action operates in the realm of creation to which the creatures, consciously or unconsciously, willingly or unwillingly, react. The action is conditioned by the nature of the "actor". The divine action, the outcome of Allah's boundless grace, can be nothing but pure good, but the reaction of the finite creature may take a different course and produce evil for which the bad receptivity of the finite creature should be held responsible. The Quran says:

Whatever good befalls you (O man) it is from Allah, and whatever of evil befalls you, it is from yourself; (NISA: 79) "

I think this will help you to understand why I was saying the will of Allah must be there for any action (which is basically a reaction of creation) to happen. And with this, we can understand why Allama Majlisi has criticized Roomi.

No I have not changed my mind. I believe He is Owner & Bestower of "Kull Khayr". 

I am thankful to you that with this discussions, I got the chance to review my opinion about predestination & free will. 
What I am pleased to see is that my personal opinion which you have mentioned as "disagreement with Sheikh" i.e., every happening requires the will of Allah (as mentioned in above red underline words), is correct and I am not in any disagreement with that great scholar.  

 

Thank you for this discussion as well brother. I really enjoy discussing with my mu'min brothers and sisters but sometimes I get passionate about my opinions so if I insulted you or attacked you in any personal manner I beg you to forgive me.

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Just now, E.L King said:

Thank you for this discussion as well brother. I really enjoy discussing with my mu'min brothers and sisters but sometimes I get passionate about my opinions so if I insulted you or attacked you in any personal manner I beg you to forgive me.

I have not taken it as insult, brother.

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Imam Al Sadiq And Discussion With Sufis

http://www.sibtayn.com/en/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5835:imam-al-sadiq-and-discussion-with-sufis&catid=565&Itemid=649

This will surely make you near to Allah and take you away from ignorance. Leave unenlightenment to its people, for the people of ignorance are too many while the people of knowledge are too little. Allah said: Over every knowledgeable person is one more knowing. (Holy Qur'an 12:76).

Reference:Tuhaf al-Uqool

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9 hours ago, SunniBrother said:

Imam ‘Ali was asked by one of his companions, Tha΄lab al-Yamani whether he had seen his Lord. Imam ‘Ali replied, “How can I worship something that I do not see?” When asked how he saw Him, Imam ‘Ali replied, “Eyes do not reach Him with physical sight, but the hearts reach Him with the realities of belief.”- Nahjul Balagha

But the hearts reach Him with the REALITIES OF BELIEF 

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