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Sufism, poetry and fisq/kufr

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@E.L King.

Mystic definition of wine. 

 this it is said that continued murraqaba(never keeping heart occupied by other than Allah) gradully lifts veil of ignorance till ultimately it is totally lifted. Then that innate love appears in its full splendour and leads man's conscience towards Allah. The mystic poets often figuratively call this divine love "wine". 

So please do not think this mystic  vine as physical thing that is haram. 

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@E.L King.

Mystic definition of wine. 

 this it is said that continued murraqaba(never keeping heart occupied by other than Allah) gradully lifts veil of ignorance till ultimately it is totally lifted. Then that innate love appears in its full splendour and leads man's conscience towards Allah. The mystic poets often figuratively call this divine love "wine". 

So please do not think this mystic  vine as physical thing that is haram. 

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1 minute ago, E.L King said:

Leave Imam Ali (as) and Ibn Muljim aside, Rumi is saying that anyone who is guilty is not really guilty because Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى has predestined this. This is jabr, and is harshly talked about in our narrations. Scholars called it kufr and zandaqa.

Surely Allah is He with Whom is the knowledge of the hour, and He sends down the rain and He knows what is in the wombs; and no one knows what he shall earn tomorrow; and no one knows in what land he shall die; surely Allah is knowing, Aware (31:34)

I am not defending the concept of Jabr, just saying that may be Rumi was talking about the knowledge of Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى.

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This poem of Molavi indicated that he believed in ikhtiyar:

گفت سلطان بلک آنچ از نفس زاد

ریع تقصیرست و دخل اجتهاد

ورنه آدم کی بگفتی با خدا

ربنا انا ظلمنا نفسنا

خود بگفتی کین گناه از نفس بود

چون قضا این بود حزم ما چه سود

هم‌چو ابلیسی که گفت اغویتنی

تو شکستی جام و ما را می‌زنی

بل قضا حقست و جهد بنده حق

هین مباش اعور چو ابلیس خلق

در تردد مانده‌ایم اندر دو کار

این تردد کی بود بی‌اختیار

این کنم یا آن کنم او کی گود

که دو دست و پای او بسته بود

هیچ باشد این تردد بر سرم

که روم در بحر یا بالا پرم

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پس تردد را بباید قدرتی

ورنه آن خنده بود بر سبلتی

بر قضا کم نه بهانه ای جوان

جرم خود را چون نهی بر دیگران

خون کند زید و قصاص او به عمر

می خورد عمرو و بر احمد حد خمر

گرد خود برگرد و جرم خود ببین

جنبش از خود بین و از سایه مبین

که نخواهد شد غلط پاداش میر

خصم را می‌داند آن میر بصیر

چون عسل خوردی نیامد تب به غیر

مزد روز تو نیامد شب به غیر

در چه کردی جهد کان وا تو نگشت

تو چه کاریدی که نامد ریع کشت

فعل تو که زاید از جان و تنت

هم‌چو فرزندت بگیرد دامنت

فعل را در غیب صورت می‌کنند

فعل دزدی را نه داری می‌زنند

دار کی ماند به دزدی لیک آن

هست تصویر خدای غیب‌دان

در دل شحنه چو حق الهام داد

که چنین صورت بساز از بهر داد

تا تو عالم باشی و عادل قضا

نامناسب چون دهد داد و سزا

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5 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

Surely Allah is He with Whom is the knowledge of the hour, and He sends down the rain and He knows what is in the wombs; and no one knows what he shall earn tomorrow; and no one knows in what land he shall die; surely Allah is knowing, Aware (31:34)

I am not defending the concept of Jabr, just saying that may be Rumi was talking about the knowledge of Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى.

If you read the poem, you cannot come to that conclusion at all. 

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Just now, E.L King said:

Which language? 

English, and If you have Urdu version, it will be more easy for me to grasp.

One more thing, and again without any intention of defending the ideology of Jabr, may be Rumi has said those words in light of this verse:

وَمَا تَشَاؤُونَ إِلَّا أَن يَشَاء اللَّهُ رَبُّ الْعَالَمِينَ

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Just now, Salsabeel said:

English, and If you have Urdu version, it will be more easy for me to grasp.

One more thing, and again without any intention of defending the ideology of Jabr, may be Rumi has said those words in light of this verse:

وَمَا تَشَاؤُونَ إِلَّا أَن يَشَاء اللَّهُ رَبُّ الْعَالَمِينَ

http://rumiurdu.blogspot.com.au/2012/03/masnavi-book-1-68-ali-and-his-murderer.html?m=1

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I wonder those who say these fuqaha do not have husn dhan realise that when someone says kufr, they are liable for it regardless of whether it is literal or not? 

Furthermore, these are not some sort of lowly fuqaha wherein they would claim someone like Ibn Arabi is a zindeeq (like Shaykh Al-Fayyadh said) is simply a lack of husn dhan.

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12 hours ago, E.L King said:

He is referring the incident in context with the historical records which mentions that Imam Ali knew that Ibn-e-Muljim will kill him. If I am remembering it correctly, once Imam Ali has expressed this news with his companion, who advised Imam Ali to kill Ibn-e-Muljim. Imam Ali replied him, do you want me to punish him before committing the crime?

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9 minutes ago, E.L King said:

I wonder those who say these fuqaha do not have husn dhan realise that when someone says kufr, they are liable for it regardless of whether it is literal or not? 

Furthermore, these are not some sort of lowly fuqaha wherein they would claim someone like Ibn Arabi is a zindeeq (like Shaykh Al-Fayyadh said) is simply a lack of husn dhan.

El king.

Shaykh Al Fayydh might feel that Ibne Arabi is zindiq. But there other scholars who have praised him most. Let us keep it on Allah to have final result 

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12 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

He is referring the incident in context with the historical records which mentions that Imam Ali knew that Ibn-e-Muljim will kill him. If I am remembering it correctly, once Imam Ali has expressed this news with his companion, who advised Imam Ali to kill Ibn-e-Muljim. Imam Ali replied him, do you want me to punish him before committing the crime?

I don't know why you are being apologetic my brother:

Did you not read this?

You art God's instrument, God's hand is the (real) agent:how should I assail and oppose God's instrument?’”

He (the knight) said, “For what reason, then, is retaliation(sanctioned)?” “It is from God, too,” said ‘Alí, “and that is a hidden mystery.

What does this tell you?

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10 minutes ago, E.L King said:

I don't know why you are being apologetic my brother:

Did you not read this?

You art God's instrument, God's hand is the (real) agent:how should I assail and oppose God's instrument?’”

He (the knight) said, “For what reason, then, is retaliation(sanctioned)?” “It is from God, too,” said ‘Alí, “and that is a hidden mystery.

What does this tell you?

What you want to convey by it.

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One early morning Ali went to Mosque of Kufa for prayers. There were some people in the mosque. One man was sleeping with his face downward. He had a hidden sword under him. His sword was poisoned. The man pretended to be sleeping. His name was Ibn Muljim.

Ali entered the mosque and began his prayers. While praying he bowed his head to Allah. From the back came lbn Muljim and with his poisoned sword struck a deadly blow on Ali. Ali fell down bleeding. Ibn Muljim ran away.

The other people saw this tragedy; they found Ali wounded and bleeding. He was bandaged.

Meanwhile, people outside the mosque saw Ibn Muljim running with a blood red sword in his hand. They ran after him. After much pursuing they caught him. Ibn Muljim was brought before Ali when Ali was still in the mosque.

Frightened, Ibn Muljim stood before Ali. His breathing was heavy because of the running. He was also thirsty, that Ali could see. Then Ali was taken to his house. There was much crying and weeping in whole Kufa. At this time milk was brought for Ali. He looked at the milk, and said, “Give a glass like this one to Ibn Muljim also, he is very thirsty.”

The milk was given to the culprit. He gratefully drank and quenched his thirst.

Ali died two days after because of the wound given by Ibn Muljim.

Moral:

To have mercy upon even your worst enemy is a great noble act.

https://www.al-islam.org/bilal-s-bedtime-stories-a-h-sheriff-a-s-alloo/ali-and-killer

@E.L King

12 hours ago, E.L King said:

You art God's instrument, God's hand is the (real) agent:how should I assail and oppose God's instrument?’”

You can understand this when you read this history books, here is a reference:

"Two types of traditions exist regarding Ali's awareness of his fate long before the assassination. This foreknowledge was through his own "premonition of it" or by Muhammad. Based on numerous traditions, Ali's beard staining with "blood flowing from his head" had been revealed by Muhammad or Ali. Another set of traditions by Muhammad says that "the most evil man among the ancients was he who had killed the camel of the prophet Salih and among his contemporaries, he who would kill Ali." The night of the assassination, Ali said that his fate was about to come true, and when he left home in the morning, "geese followed him, cackling" weeping for his funeral, as he said later." (Wikipedia)

I am not apologetic, but I definitely see the matter with reference to historical records.

Secondly, I do believe that without the will of Allah, nothing could happen. His will is necessary for everything to occur. :) And again, I am not defending here the philosophy of Jabr.

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12 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

I am not apologetic, but I definitely see the matter with reference to historical records.

Secondly, I do believe that without the will of Allah, nothing could happen. His will is necessary for everything to occur. :) And again, I am not defending here the philosophy of Jabr.

Imam Ali (as) knowing he will be killed and Ibn Muljim being an instrument of Allah and that this action is from Allah not Ibn Muljim is different.

There is quite a difference.

If someone had a gun pointed at me, and I knew he is wrongfully going to kill me, can I say Allah killed me? That would be jabr. 

I'm not sure how you do not see this as jabr or atleast saying that Allah is responsible for the sins of people.

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Look how clear the follow-up is, he is saying this is Allah's act itself.

If He takes offence at His own act, (yet) He causes gardens (of good) to grow from that taking offence. It beseems Him to take offence at His own act, in as much as in vengeance and mercy He is One.

Astaghfirullah. A'udhu billah from the words of men at what they ascribe to Him.

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12 minutes ago, E.L King said:

Look how clear the follow-up is, he is saying this is Allah's act itself.

If He takes offence at His own act, (yet) He causes gardens (of good) to grow from that taking offence. It beseems Him to take offence at His own act, in as much as in vengeance and mercy He is One.

Astaghfirullah. A'udhu billah from the words of men at what they ascribe to Him.

If you see the commentary of Arifs every act is Allah's and every name is Allah's. One one that is in play is Allah.

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2 minutes ago, islam25 said:

If you see the commentary of Arifs every act is Allah's and every name is Allah's. One one that is in play is Allah.

Astaghfirullah from that belief. And Sayyed Al-Khoei talked about this belief and said it is deviant.

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Just now, E.L King said:

Astaghfirullah from that belief. And Sayyed Al-Khoei talked about this belief and said it is deviant.

It is deviant just think over. 

It said when veils from heart of Arif gets lifted he sees nothing but Allah in play. 

Definitely we will deny it because we do not see. But Arifs universal see one thing that is Allah in play.

Howa Awwalu hua Aakhiru hua zahiru huwa batin. 

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I am not going to say what Molavi says about Ibn-e Muljam is true but read the text below:

 جماعة متفرقين روي ان امير المؤمنين (ع) كلما راى عبد الرحمن بن ملجم المرادي قال لمن حوله هذا قاتلي فقال له قائل فلا تقتله يا امير المؤمنين فقال (ع) كيف اقتل قاتلي كيف ارد قضاء الله ولما اختار الله

http://www.yasoob.com/books/htm1/m013/11/no1188.html

From other poems of Molavi, it is clear that he didnt believe in Jabr.

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4 hours ago, Sindbad05 said:

Please refer to me to that part of Ayotullah Tabataba'i poetic verse so that I may understand it fully and get the gist of his poetry. 

Sindbad. 

This is the link where Mohammad hussein Tabatbie ra himself and his son recites poetry of Tabatbie. 

https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D0SYGixWZxeE&ved=0ahUKEwiF14zWoKLXAhWLK48KHZJrCZQQwqsBCGswEw&usg=AOvVaw0WwFZIVLkm-CaW4yMWOPKa

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Mr Black and White is arguing with MR/MRS colorful. :pushup:

17 hours ago, E.L King said:

My question is this: is this how Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى would want us to worship Him? By "non-literally" speaking about ourselves committing kufr and fisq? 

Are you defining how humans should express their devotion to their creator excluding what the religion states?. Stating, IS THIS HOW, is implying your knowing Allah more then the rest, this in it self can be Kufr.

The use of US is a contradiction, considering, you do not agree to it, thus, the accusation would be, those who follow the gnostic path.

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2 hours ago, E.L King said:

So what is your personal opinion on these references in poetry? I prefer poetry which talks about Allah in a clear manner, this type of poetry became popular amongst some Shi'i mystics during the Safawi era, to which Al-Majlisi criticised these books, like Masnavi, as containing deviant beliefs.

Brother Masnavi Rumi is another thing and this is from another poet which you showed me and I do not form a judgement just by watching one thing which is attributed to certain poet.  It needs clarification whether it belonged to that poet or not. Rumi was although a Sunni mystical poet and I have neither affirmative nor negative feelings about him until I completely know him because it is morally wrong to consider someone wrong even before you haven't researched about him. Albeit, I think you are very wrong in your thoughts about Ayotullah Tabataba'i if you knowingly considered him wrong although I told you that metaphor is part of poetry. 

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