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Sufism, poetry and fisq/kufr

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It's hard for people when islam tells them be loyal to their parenrs or mates but if you let them to see a drama where by parents or two couples fight for each other they begin to behave good for their parenrs ir partners for few days.

That's human psychology lolz. Mystic poets choose what attracted people.

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3 hours ago, E.L King said:

Now, the common answer would be: "you are not understanding the deeper spiritual meanings behind these words, they are not literal, you are not realising the beauty of poetry". And bla bla bla.

Lets apply your logic to the belief of people who understand that:

1. Allah has hands because it is mentioned in verses of Quran which are the words of Allah.
2. And He is sitting on a "Kursi" because His Kursi is mentioned in a verse of Quran.

I guess, your answer would be quite similar to the answer you have mentioned i.e., "You're not understanding the deeper spiritual meanings behind these words, they are not literal"

I see that you are not familiar with recognizing  "isti'ara"

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10 minutes ago, E.L King said:

Actually the fatwa states clearly there is precaution if there is precaution even if there no threat from haram, and not permissible at all if there is a threat.

At the end of the day you are free to your interpretation, but I will stick to these words.

And let's excuse his flaws because of that?

Is it written that ghazals were of modern poets or mystic poets?  Of Hafez or modern indecent poet?  

The rules of Islam changes with the slightest change of factor. None can be sure that Ayotullah spoke about classical poets but modern poets who are all psychologically not spiritual. 

Ask him about question that Ayotullah Tabataba'i wrote wine and is not it haram and Ayotullah would either say you that you took it wrong or it's not for you brother.

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6 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

Lets apply your logic to the belief of people who understand that:

1. Allah has hands because it is mentioned in verses of Quran which are the words of Allah.
2. And He is sitting on a "Kursi" because His Kursi is mentioned in a verse of Quran.

I guess, your answer would be quite similar to the answer you have mentioned i.e., "You're not understanding the deeper spiritual meanings behind these words, they are not literal"

I see that you are not familiar with recognizing  "isti'ara"

This is false equivalence. I am not dismissing metaphorical speech as you seem to be assuming, wal iyadhu billah - if I did that I would be a mushrik like our opponents who say Allah has a hand. 

These Verses have been given alternative interpretations by our Imams (as), and so we take from them in this regard.

Even metaphorical speech in poetry is nice, what I am saying is, is metaphorical speech regarding qaba'ih (kufr and fisq) for the sake of nearness to Allah, a good thing? 

Is it better to say "I am drunk and intoxicated by wine" or saying "I love Allah"?

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1 minute ago, E.L King said:

This is false equivalence. I am not dismissing metaphorical speech as you seem to be assuming, wal iyadhu billah - if I did that I would be a mushrik like our opponents who say Allah has a hand. 

These Verses have been given alternative interpretations by our Imams (as), and so we take from them in this regard.

Even metaphorical speech in poetry is nice, what I am saying is, is metaphorical speech regarding qaba'ih (kufr and fisq) for the sake of nearness to Allah, a good thing? 

Is it better to say "I am drunk and intoxicated by wine" or saying "I love Allah"?

Ok. Hazrat Huzaifa said to umer I love fitna and hate haq so would you take it literal bro? 

He meant love children and dislike death.

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13 hours ago, E.L King said:

These Verses have been given alternative interpretations by our Imams (as), and so we take from them in this regard.

Have you tried to see any interpretation and alternative interpretation for that poetry you are referring in this thread? 

Tell me, is it possible that the poet does not literally means what you have understood from it?

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Just now, Salsabeel said:

Have you tried to see any interpretation and alternative interpretation for that poetry you are referring in this thread? 

Tell me, is it possible that the poet does not literally means what you have understood from it?

I know it is not literal, I am not stupid. Please read my O.P, the whole topic is not regarding whether it is literal or not, we know it's not, the O.P question is: is this a good way to worship Allah?

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13 hours ago, E.L King said:

First of all, I don't have read much about Sheikh Saad. 

Second, it could be that some poets are attributed to the poems who were good such as nowadays people in Pakistan allege iqbal to have written poems against azadari while he was also a great azadar. So, don't judge until you have read all his works and researchers who are pro and against particular person.

Finally, when I meant mystical poets, I meant to those whom I know such as those in my country namely Shah Abdul Latif and Sachal and Iqbal and Allama Tabataba'i whose few verses I read.

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1 minute ago, E.L King said:

I know it is not literal, I am not stupid. Please read my O.P, the whole topic is not regarding whether it is literal or not, we know it's not, the O.P question is: is this a good way to worship Allah?

:) Please excuse me if you got a negative impression from my question.

Was it (poetry) an act of worship? Or was it an expression of his (poet's) emotions?

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4 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

First of all, I don't have read much about Sheikh Saad. 

Second, it could be that some poets are attributed to the poems who were good such as nowadays people in Pakistan allege iqbal to have written poems against azadari while he was also a great azadar. So, don't judge until you have read all his works and researchers who are pro and against particular person.

Finally, when I meant mystical poets, I meant to those whom I know such as those in my country namely Shah Abdul Latif and Sachal and Iqbal and Allama Tabataba'i whose few verses I read.

So what is your personal opinion on these references in poetry? I prefer poetry which talks about Allah in a clear manner, this type of poetry became popular amongst some Shi'i mystics during the Safawi era, to which Al-Majlisi criticised these books, like Masnavi, as containing deviant beliefs.

6 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

:) Please excuse me if you got a negative impression from my question.

Was it (poetry) an act of worship? Or was it an expression of his (poet's) emotions?

Even if we say they are not doing dhikr, is it acceptable to refer to Allah by the same things He declared haram? Why wine? Why not by His mountains, His oceans etc..

And why would someone like Al-Majlisi say that Masnavi contains deviant beliefs?

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7 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

:) Please excuse me if you got a negative impression from my question.

Was it (poetry) an act of worship? Or was it an expression of his (poet's) emotions?

Yeah you are right. Even I do not know that much about poetry but Iam sure that it is not Haram. And on the other side I guess writing about wine, intoxicants, and all that (IF WRITING SYMBOLICALLY) does not matter.

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1 minute ago, E.L King said:

Even if we say they are not doing dhikr, is it acceptable to refer to Allah by the same things He declared haram? Why wine? Why not by His mountains, His oceans etc..

This objection is meaningless when he has used the word "wine"  as "isti'ara". I think the Poet has more than one objectives when using words like "wine" which is forbidden in Islam, as isti'ara.

One of his objective may be is to hurt those mullah's who only see literal meanings of words. In any case, we don't know the secret of hearts, Allah knows best. I advise you to use "husn-e-dhan" in this case.

9 minutes ago, E.L King said:

And why would someone like Al-Majlisi say that Masnavi contains deviant beliefs?

I don't know. May be he has also avoided to use "husn-e-dhan" :).

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1 minute ago, Salsabeel said:

This objection is meaningless when he has used the word "wine"  as "isti'ara". I think the Poet has more than one objectives when using words like "wine" which is forbidden in Islam, as isti'ara.

One of his objective may be is to hurt those mullah's who only see literal meanings of words. In any case, we don't know the secret of hearts, Allah knows best. I advise you to use "husn-e-dhan" in this case.

This only gives possible reasons but does not answer the question.

2 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

 

I don't know. May be he has also avoided to use "husn-e-dhan" :).

I doubt that, for example, Majlisi says that Al-Rumi declared Ibn Muljim "not-guilty" by claiming that Imam Ali (as( said this is just "qadr". Basically the same thing the kafir mujabbira say, who say all things are predestined. 

There are other things he mentioned. Let's say Al-Majlisi took this wrong, and he was not being literal and this is not an indication of aqeeda. Is this not a disturbing poem? What could possibly be the message here?

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14 minutes ago, Farwa Jawad said:

Yeah you are right. Even I do not know that much about poetry but Iam sure that it is not Haram. And on the other side I guess writing about wine, intoxicants, and all that (IF WRITING SYMBOLICALLY) does not matter.

:) Actions speaks louder than words..... Some times people argue how does actions speak?

But some times people's concern are quite genuine, like Bullay Shah has said "Offering prayers is a female job" (In Punjabi, namaz parhan kum zanana), or [Edited Out] is better than Mullah (Mulla kanu Kukkar changa), I really struggle to get to the meanings of these poetic thoughts. But those who are familiar with the poetry & ideology of Bullay Shah, praises him. I only know that he was a Muslim and a lover of Ahlul Bayt (asws), this is sufficient for me to keep husn-e-dhan about him.

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13 hours ago, E.L King said:

This only gives possible reasons but does not answer the question.

Since I haven't seen that poetry, all I can give you is a possible answer keeping in view that the Poet is a Muslim and a lover of Ahlul Bayt (asws).

13 hours ago, E.L King said:

I doubt that, for example, Majlisi says that Al-Rumi declared Ibn Muljim "not-guilty" by claiming that Imam Ali (as( said this is just "qadr". Basically the same thing the kafir mujabbira say, who say all things are predestined. 

There are other things he mentioned. Let's say Al-Majlisi took this wrong, and he was not being literal and this is not an indication of aqeeda. Is this not a disturbing poem? What could possibly be the message here?

May be Al-Rumi has missed the advise of Imam Ali (asws) to Imam Hassan (asws) about Ibn-e-Muljim (L). So I am again keeping husn-e-dhan about Rumi.

What are the other things? I need to see that before expressing my opinion.

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3 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

:) Actions speaks louder than words..... Some times people argue how does actions speak?

But some times people's concern are quite genuine, like Bullay Shah has said "Offering prayers is a female job" (In Punjabi, namaz parhan kum zanana), or [Edited Out] is better than Mullah (Mulla kanu Kukkar changa), I really struggle to get to the meanings of these poetic thoughts. But those who are familiar with the poetry & ideology of Bullay Shah, praises him. I only know that he was a Muslim and a lover of Ahlul Bayt (asws), this is sufficient for me to keep husn-e-dhan about him.

First of all this whole husn dhan thing that you are stating makes little sense in regards to the adala of people unless there are qara'in which prove they are not being literal. 

Usually, someone is taken at their word by the Islamic Court if they said something kufri - for example, with regards to blasphemy.

But even if it is not literal, they may be liable for ta'zir.

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@E.L King.

Mystic definition of wine. 

It is said Murraqaba(continued remembering  Allah in heart  ) gradually weakens  this veil till ultimately it is totally lifted. Then that innate love appears in its full splendour and leads man's conscience towards Allah. The mystic poets often figuratively call this divine love "wine". 

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13 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

Since I haven't seen that poetry, all I can give you is a possible answer keeping in view that the Poet is a Muslim and a lover of Ahlul Bayt (asws).

May be Al-Rumi has missed the advise of Imam Ali (asws) to Imam Hassan (asws) about Ibn-e-Muljim (L). So I am again keeping husn-e-dhan about Rumi.

What are the other things? I need to see that before expressing my opinion.

Did you ignore the fact about his aqeeda, that this would constitute jabr? Leave Imam Ali (as) and Ibn Muljim aside, Rumi is saying that anyone who is guilty is not really guilty because Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى has predestined this. This is jabr, and is harshly talked about in our narrations. Scholars called it kufr and zandaqa.

The other things Majlisi stated Rumi said was that Imam Ali (as) would intercede for Ibn Muljim. And he said there is not a oage in that book except it mentions corrupt beliefs like wahdat al wujood, jabr (as we stated) etc..

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