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E.L King

Sufism, poetry and fisq/kufr

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It's hard for people when islam tells them be loyal to their parenrs or mates but if you let them to see a drama where by parents or two couples fight for each other they begin to behave good for their parenrs ir partners for few days.

That's human psychology lolz. Mystic poets choose what attracted people.

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3 hours ago, E.L King said:

Now, the common answer would be: "you are not understanding the deeper spiritual meanings behind these words, they are not literal, you are not realising the beauty of poetry". And bla bla bla.

Lets apply your logic to the belief of people who understand that:

1. Allah has hands because it is mentioned in verses of Quran which are the words of Allah.
2. And He is sitting on a "Kursi" because His Kursi is mentioned in a verse of Quran.

I guess, your answer would be quite similar to the answer you have mentioned i.e., "You're not understanding the deeper spiritual meanings behind these words, they are not literal"

I see that you are not familiar with recognizing  "isti'ara"

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10 minutes ago, E.L King said:

Actually the fatwa states clearly there is precaution if there is precaution even if there no threat from haram, and not permissible at all if there is a threat.

At the end of the day you are free to your interpretation, but I will stick to these words.

And let's excuse his flaws because of that?

Is it written that ghazals were of modern poets or mystic poets?  Of Hafez or modern indecent poet?  

The rules of Islam changes with the slightest change of factor. None can be sure that Ayotullah spoke about classical poets but modern poets who are all psychologically not spiritual. 

Ask him about question that Ayotullah Tabataba'i wrote wine and is not it haram and Ayotullah would either say you that you took it wrong or it's not for you brother.

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6 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

Lets apply your logic to the belief of people who understand that:

1. Allah has hands because it is mentioned in verses of Quran which are the words of Allah.
2. And He is sitting on a "Kursi" because His Kursi is mentioned in a verse of Quran.

I guess, your answer would be quite similar to the answer you have mentioned i.e., "You're not understanding the deeper spiritual meanings behind these words, they are not literal"

I see that you are not familiar with recognizing  "isti'ara"

This is false equivalence. I am not dismissing metaphorical speech as you seem to be assuming, wal iyadhu billah - if I did that I would be a mushrik like our opponents who say Allah has a hand. 

These Verses have been given alternative interpretations by our Imams (as), and so we take from them in this regard.

Even metaphorical speech in poetry is nice, what I am saying is, is metaphorical speech regarding qaba'ih (kufr and fisq) for the sake of nearness to Allah, a good thing? 

Is it better to say "I am drunk and intoxicated by wine" or saying "I love Allah"?

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1 minute ago, E.L King said:

This is false equivalence. I am not dismissing metaphorical speech as you seem to be assuming, wal iyadhu billah - if I did that I would be a mushrik like our opponents who say Allah has a hand. 

These Verses have been given alternative interpretations by our Imams (as), and so we take from them in this regard.

Even metaphorical speech in poetry is nice, what I am saying is, is metaphorical speech regarding qaba'ih (kufr and fisq) for the sake of nearness to Allah, a good thing? 

Is it better to say "I am drunk and intoxicated by wine" or saying "I love Allah"?

Ok. Hazrat Huzaifa said to umer I love fitna and hate haq so would you take it literal bro? 

He meant love children and dislike death.

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13 hours ago, E.L King said:

These Verses have been given alternative interpretations by our Imams (as), and so we take from them in this regard.

Have you tried to see any interpretation and alternative interpretation for that poetry you are referring in this thread? 

Tell me, is it possible that the poet does not literally means what you have understood from it?

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Just now, Salsabeel said:

Have you tried to see any interpretation and alternative interpretation for that poetry you are referring in this thread? 

Tell me, is it possible that the poet does not literally means what you have understood from it?

I know it is not literal, I am not stupid. Please read my O.P, the whole topic is not regarding whether it is literal or not, we know it's not, the O.P question is: is this a good way to worship Allah?

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13 hours ago, E.L King said:

First of all, I don't have read much about Sheikh Saad. 

Second, it could be that some poets are attributed to the poems who were good such as nowadays people in Pakistan allege iqbal to have written poems against azadari while he was also a great azadar. So, don't judge until you have read all his works and researchers who are pro and against particular person.

Finally, when I meant mystical poets, I meant to those whom I know such as those in my country namely Shah Abdul Latif and Sachal and Iqbal and Allama Tabataba'i whose few verses I read.

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1 minute ago, E.L King said:

I know it is not literal, I am not stupid. Please read my O.P, the whole topic is not regarding whether it is literal or not, we know it's not, the O.P question is: is this a good way to worship Allah?

:) Please excuse me if you got a negative impression from my question.

Was it (poetry) an act of worship? Or was it an expression of his (poet's) emotions?

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4 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

First of all, I don't have read much about Sheikh Saad. 

Second, it could be that some poets are attributed to the poems who were good such as nowadays people in Pakistan allege iqbal to have written poems against azadari while he was also a great azadar. So, don't judge until you have read all his works and researchers who are pro and against particular person.

Finally, when I meant mystical poets, I meant to those whom I know such as those in my country namely Shah Abdul Latif and Sachal and Iqbal and Allama Tabataba'i whose few verses I read.

So what is your personal opinion on these references in poetry? I prefer poetry which talks about Allah in a clear manner, this type of poetry became popular amongst some Shi'i mystics during the Safawi era, to which Al-Majlisi criticised these books, like Masnavi, as containing deviant beliefs.

6 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

:) Please excuse me if you got a negative impression from my question.

Was it (poetry) an act of worship? Or was it an expression of his (poet's) emotions?

Even if we say they are not doing dhikr, is it acceptable to refer to Allah by the same things He declared haram? Why wine? Why not by His mountains, His oceans etc..

And why would someone like Al-Majlisi say that Masnavi contains deviant beliefs?

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7 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

:) Please excuse me if you got a negative impression from my question.

Was it (poetry) an act of worship? Or was it an expression of his (poet's) emotions?

Yeah you are right. Even I do not know that much about poetry but Iam sure that it is not Haram. And on the other side I guess writing about wine, intoxicants, and all that (IF WRITING SYMBOLICALLY) does not matter.

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1 minute ago, E.L King said:

Even if we say they are not doing dhikr, is it acceptable to refer to Allah by the same things He declared haram? Why wine? Why not by His mountains, His oceans etc..

This objection is meaningless when he has used the word "wine"  as "isti'ara". I think the Poet has more than one objectives when using words like "wine" which is forbidden in Islam, as isti'ara.

One of his objective may be is to hurt those mullah's who only see literal meanings of words. In any case, we don't know the secret of hearts, Allah knows best. I advise you to use "husn-e-dhan" in this case.

9 minutes ago, E.L King said:

And why would someone like Al-Majlisi say that Masnavi contains deviant beliefs?

I don't know. May be he has also avoided to use "husn-e-dhan" :).

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1 minute ago, Salsabeel said:

This objection is meaningless when he has used the word "wine"  as "isti'ara". I think the Poet has more than one objectives when using words like "wine" which is forbidden in Islam, as isti'ara.

One of his objective may be is to hurt those mullah's who only see literal meanings of words. In any case, we don't know the secret of hearts, Allah knows best. I advise you to use "husn-e-dhan" in this case.

This only gives possible reasons but does not answer the question.

2 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

 

I don't know. May be he has also avoided to use "husn-e-dhan" :).

I doubt that, for example, Majlisi says that Al-Rumi declared Ibn Muljim "not-guilty" by claiming that Imam Ali (as( said this is just "qadr". Basically the same thing the kafir mujabbira say, who say all things are predestined. 

There are other things he mentioned. Let's say Al-Majlisi took this wrong, and he was not being literal and this is not an indication of aqeeda. Is this not a disturbing poem? What could possibly be the message here?

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14 minutes ago, Farwa Jawad said:

Yeah you are right. Even I do not know that much about poetry but Iam sure that it is not Haram. And on the other side I guess writing about wine, intoxicants, and all that (IF WRITING SYMBOLICALLY) does not matter.

:) Actions speaks louder than words..... Some times people argue how does actions speak?

But some times people's concern are quite genuine, like Bullay Shah has said "Offering prayers is a female job" (In Punjabi, namaz parhan kum zanana), or [Edited Out] is better than Mullah (Mulla kanu Kukkar changa), I really struggle to get to the meanings of these poetic thoughts. But those who are familiar with the poetry & ideology of Bullay Shah, praises him. I only know that he was a Muslim and a lover of Ahlul Bayt (asws), this is sufficient for me to keep husn-e-dhan about him.

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13 hours ago, E.L King said:

This only gives possible reasons but does not answer the question.

Since I haven't seen that poetry, all I can give you is a possible answer keeping in view that the Poet is a Muslim and a lover of Ahlul Bayt (asws).

13 hours ago, E.L King said:

I doubt that, for example, Majlisi says that Al-Rumi declared Ibn Muljim "not-guilty" by claiming that Imam Ali (as( said this is just "qadr". Basically the same thing the kafir mujabbira say, who say all things are predestined. 

There are other things he mentioned. Let's say Al-Majlisi took this wrong, and he was not being literal and this is not an indication of aqeeda. Is this not a disturbing poem? What could possibly be the message here?

May be Al-Rumi has missed the advise of Imam Ali (asws) to Imam Hassan (asws) about Ibn-e-Muljim (L). So I am again keeping husn-e-dhan about Rumi.

What are the other things? I need to see that before expressing my opinion.

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3 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

:) Actions speaks louder than words..... Some times people argue how does actions speak?

But some times people's concern are quite genuine, like Bullay Shah has said "Offering prayers is a female job" (In Punjabi, namaz parhan kum zanana), or [Edited Out] is better than Mullah (Mulla kanu Kukkar changa), I really struggle to get to the meanings of these poetic thoughts. But those who are familiar with the poetry & ideology of Bullay Shah, praises him. I only know that he was a Muslim and a lover of Ahlul Bayt (asws), this is sufficient for me to keep husn-e-dhan about him.

First of all this whole husn dhan thing that you are stating makes little sense in regards to the adala of people unless there are qara'in which prove they are not being literal. 

Usually, someone is taken at their word by the Islamic Court if they said something kufri - for example, with regards to blasphemy.

But even if it is not literal, they may be liable for ta'zir.

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@E.L King.

Mystic definition of wine. 

It is said Murraqaba(continued remembering  Allah in heart  ) gradually weakens  this veil till ultimately it is totally lifted. Then that innate love appears in its full splendour and leads man's conscience towards Allah. The mystic poets often figuratively call this divine love "wine". 

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The word "sharab" literally means a "drink". We can find this word in Quran, too ...sharaban tahoora...شرابا طهورا

This sharab is a reward offered to good people in paradise.

By the way, Hafiz and Molavi lived before Safavide era.

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13 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

Since I haven't seen that poetry, all I can give you is a possible answer keeping in view that the Poet is a Muslim and a lover of Ahlul Bayt (asws).

May be Al-Rumi has missed the advise of Imam Ali (asws) to Imam Hassan (asws) about Ibn-e-Muljim (L). So I am again keeping husn-e-dhan about Rumi.

What are the other things? I need to see that before expressing my opinion.

Did you ignore the fact about his aqeeda, that this would constitute jabr? Leave Imam Ali (as) and Ibn Muljim aside, Rumi is saying that anyone who is guilty is not really guilty because Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى has predestined this. This is jabr, and is harshly talked about in our narrations. Scholars called it kufr and zandaqa.

The other things Majlisi stated Rumi said was that Imam Ali (as) would intercede for Ibn Muljim. And he said there is not a oage in that book except it mentions corrupt beliefs like wahdat al wujood, jabr (as we stated) etc..

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      It means a national cover; that is, a woman must wear all her body so that she is protected as a gentle flower from the swordsmanship. 
      In Sura Noor, verse 31, too, a great deal of talk about hijab and honoring the unworthy look is spoken.  Concept and dimensions of hijab in the Quran The veil in the word means the barrier, curtain and cover. The use of this word is more than the meaning of the curtain. The word covers the concept that the curtain is a cover, but not every veil, but it is called the cover of the hijab through the back of the curtain. 
      The hijab, meaning ladies' Islamic cover, has two dimensions: a positive and negative one. The positive aspect of it, the necessity of covering the body and its diminutive dimension, is the forbiddenness of being revealed to the non-mahram; and these two dimensions should be together with each other so that Islamic veil can be realized; sometimes it may be the first dimension, but not the second dimension, in this case It can be said that Islamic hijab has been realized. 
      If, in the general sense, we call hijab any cover and impeding the receipt of sin, the hijab can have different types and different types. One kind of this veil is mental, intellectual, and spiritual; for example, belief in Islamic teachings, such as monotheism and prophecy, is one of the examples of the right veil, mental and spiritual, which can lead to sins and sins of mind and mind, such as infidelity And Shrek. 
      In addition, in the Qur'an, there are other types of hijab manifested in man's external behavior, such as hijab and cover in the eyes that men and women are advised in the face of the non-Mahram.  Purpose and philosophy of veil The main purpose of the ordinance of the laws in Islam is to God, which is obtained through the cultivation of self and piety:  إن أكرمكم عند الله أتقكم (حجرات; 13) is magnanimous and most honorable to you with God.
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      He is the God who raised among the people of Ammi (a people who did not know the reading and writing) a great prophet from the same people, to recite God's revelation to them, and purify them (from the ignorance of ignorance and ugly ethics), and the book of celibacy and wisdom In fact, before that, everyone was in a state of ignorance and misguidance. 
      The Holy Qur'an is used for the purpose of securing the divine commandment, the requirement of Islamic hijab, to achieve cultivation of the soul, purity, chastity, and purity. Verses like:  Let us convey the believers' eyes to the unworthy eyes and protect their bodies and their bodies, which is the best of their bodies and their purity.   Eye veil O my Apostle, tell the believing men to put their eyes in vain view.   قل للمؤمنات أضضضان من أبصارهن (نور; 31) Tell the messenger to the believing women to cover their eyes with an unwise look.   Hijab in speech Another type of hijab and cover of the Qur'an is the hijab of women's speech versus non-law:  Falla is a great deal of pain in your heart (parties; 32) So do not talk to men with thin, soft lips; lest you fall asleep (sickness and despair).   Behavioral Hijab Another type of hijab and cover of the Quran is the veil of women's behavior against the non-Islamic. It is instructed that women should not walk in ways that would attract unharmed attention by showing their ornaments.  And let our Lah al-Jahran be tempted to blow us away (Ibn. 31), and they should not foot to the ground to reveal the ankles and their hidden ornaments.
      Of the discussed topics, it is clearly used that the meaning of Islamic hijab is to cover and protect the coexistence of women with nonhuman men in different forms of behavior, such as how to cover, look, talk and walk. 
      Therefore, the veil and cover of a woman is also a constraint and an obstacle to nonhuman individuals who intend to infiltrate and capture the honor of others. There is also the same notion of banning and refusing the lexical roots of chastity;  Veil and chastity The two words "veil" and "chastity" are essentially the meaning of common denial and refusal. The difference between prohibiting and restraining hijab and chastity is the difference between appearance and inwardness; that is, the prohibition and inhibition in the veil is related to appearance, but the prohibition and inhibition in chastity is related to the inner and inner, because chastity is an internal state, However, given that the effect of appearance on the interior and the external impact on appearance is one of the general characteristics of man; therefore, between the veil and the apparent cover, and the chastity and inner restraint of man, is the effect and the mutual influence; so that whatever the veil and the covering The appearance and the better, this type of veil is more effective in enhancing and enhancing the inner and inner mood of chastity, and vice versa, the greater the inner and inner envy of the The veil will look better in the encounter with aliens.  Elderly Women's Hijab The Holy Quran has pointed to this impact in a subtle way. First, it allows elderly women to dress their clothes like a tent against a non-sanctuary without the intention of throwing themselves out, but ultimately says: "If they are sober, it even means clothes like tents." Not better.  And Al-Qawada'm Al-Nawa'ah Al-Naha'ah Al-Fayyid Allah Jinnah, the Prophet of Allah, the Exalted and the Most Merciful,
      In addition to the previous relationship, between the apparel cover and esoteric dignity, the relation between the sign and the sign holder is also; that is, the apparent hijab is a sign of a certain stage of esoteric dignity with the owner of the veil. Of course, this does not mean that every woman who wears a veil and a cover is necessarily of all levels of chastity.  Is hijab an obstacle to all social delinquency? Given this point of view, the answer to these forms and the doubts of those who, for the ineffectiveness of revealing the veil and the apparent cover, is to blame the offenses of some women with hijab, because the problem of these women, the weakness in the inner veil And the lack of strong faith and belief in the positive effects of hijab and apparent cover and has passed since the Islamic veil has a wide dimension, and one of its most important dimensions is the inner and inner veil of the person who faces sin and corruption , It enjoys inner convictions and faith; and, essentially, this veil of mind and ideology, as a foundation stone for other veils, including hijab and p It is apparent, because human thoughts and ideas form their behaviors. 
      Of course, just as hijab and overlays do not necessarily mean all chaos, chastity can not be imagined without observing the apparent cover. One can not deny a woman or a man who appears naked or half naked in public, because we said that the apparent cover is one of the signs and symbols of chastity, and between the amount of chastity and veil, the relationship of influence and affection There is mutual. Some consider the relationship of chastity and veil to be a kind of relationship between root and fruit; the veil, the fruit of chastity, and chastity are the roots of veil. Some people may have apparent veils, but they have not created extraneous chastity. This hijab is the only shell and appearance. On the other hand, people claim to be chastity, and they say, "I have a heart-warming heart, God works with hearts," they entertain themselves; such humans must, in their minds, have to point to the essential thing that is within the pure, external It will cleanse and never purify the heart, it will not induce the fruitless fruit of the wilderness.  See also: Hijab with Fatima Zahra  References: Interpretation books  https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdaneshnameh.roshd.ir%2Fmavara%2Fmavara-index.php%3Fpage%3D%D8%AD%D8%AC%D8%A7%D8%A8%2B%D8%AF%D8%B1%2B%D9%82%D8%B1%D8%A2%D9%86%26SSOReturnPage%3DCheck%26Rand%3D0&edit-text= http://daneshnameh.roshd.ir/mavara/mavara-index.php?page=حجاب+در+قرآن&SSOReturnPage=Check&Rand=0
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