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E.L King

Sufism, poetry and fisq/kufr

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So I was researching online and I saw that there are some poems - particularly from the Sufi crowd - which contain poetry which promote wine-drinking, s*xual deviance including homo stuff, and other transgressions. I also saw some which promote paganism and idol worship (kufr). There are other things such as panentheism, but I don't want to get into that mess, since there seems to be a difference of opinion on this website regarding that.

Now, the common answer would be: "you are not understanding the deeper spiritual meanings behind these words, they are not literal, you are not realising the beauty of poetry". And bla bla bla.

My question is this: is this how Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى would want us to worship Him? By "non-literally" speaking about ourselves committing kufr and fisq? 

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Ok, what do you think of this poem?

Quote

I am a hunter of taverns, don't ask me about the Beloved.

I am dumb, so from the dumb, and distracted don't ask for an oration.

I'm preoccupied with my own blindness and wretchedness,

So from the blind don't ask for sight and vision.

Your languid eyes have brought on my own languor,

So don't ask from one so smitten for aught but delirious ravings.

Don't consort with a wandering dervish, but if ever you do,

Never ask him about wisdom, philosophy, scripture, or of the sayings of the Prophet.

I am drunk with the wine of Thy love, so from such a drunkard

Don't ask for the sober counsel of a man of the world.

Who do you think wrote this? I am not going to tell you that you don't understand the poem or tell you that you are interpreting it too literally. However, if you understood symbolism, you might get more value from what the author is trying to say.

Edited by Gaius I. Caesar

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47 minutes ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

Ok, what do you think of this poem?

Who do you think wrote this? I am not going to tell you that you don't understand the poem or tell you that you are interpreting it too literally. However, if you understood symbolism, you might get more value from what the author is trying to say.

I don't like it due to the references to wine. 

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On 8/27/2016 at 3:47 PM, ShiaChat Mod said:

"Tavern" is the place of mystical ecstasy (masjid), where the "wine" (love of Allah) is served. The Beloved or friend or companion is Allah, not a woman. Too complicated to explain, basically writing in code so only religious minded would understand. Mystical poetry is not literal.

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4 minutes ago, Hameedeh said:
On 8/27/2016 at 3:47 PM, ShiaChat Mod said:

"Tavern" is the place of mystical ecstasy (masjid), where the "wine" (love of Allah) is served. The Beloved or friend or companion is Allah, not a woman. Too complicated to explain, basically writing in code so only religious minded would understand. Mystical poetry is not literal.

 

1 hour ago, E.L King said:

Now, the common answer would be: "you are not understanding the deeper spiritual meanings behind these words, they are not literal, you are not realising the beauty of poetry". And bla bla bla.

My question is this: is this how Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى would want us to worship Him? By "non-literally" speaking about ourselves committing kufr and fisq?

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1 hour ago, E.L King said:

My question is this: is this how Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى would want us to worship Him? By "non-literally" speaking about ourselves committing kufr and fisq? 

None of us understand those things (mystical poems), but a blog can contain many words that are not relevant, true or useful. They are opinion. Some blogs are specifically created to make Islam (Shia, Sunni, Sufi, Zaidi, etc.) look bad. I would stay away from websites that have such deviance as you described.

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1 hour ago, E.L King said:

So I was researching online and I saw that there are some poems - particularly from the Sufi crowd - which contain poetry which promote wine-drinking, s*xual deviance including homo stuff, and other transgressions. I also saw some which promote paganism and idol worship (kufr). There are other things such as panentheism, but I don't want to get into that mess, since there seems to be a difference of opinion on this website regarding that.

Now, the common answer would be: "you are not understanding the deeper spiritual meanings behind these words, they are not literal, you are not realising the beauty of poetry". And bla bla bla.

My question is this: is this how Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى would want us to worship Him? By "non-literally" speaking about ourselves committing kufr and fisq? 

Mr.There  is a metaphysical truth which cannot be conveyed by using language of this world. So they use words like wine, eyes and curling hair to convey the message. But unfortunately some people take in literal meaning and get confused. 

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17 minutes ago, Hameedeh said:

None of us understand those things (mystical poems), but a blog can contain many words that are not relevant, true or useful. They are opinion. Some blogs are specifically created to make Islam (Shia, Sunni, Sufi, Zaidi, etc.) look bad. I would stay away from websites that have such deviance as you described.

These are not blogs, these were the words of these poets.

4 minutes ago, islam25 said:

Mr.There  is a metaphysical truth which cannot be conveyed by using language of this world. So they use words like wine, eyes and curling hair to convey the message. But unfortunately some people take in literal meaning and get confused. 

I see, basically the same reasoning as what I said in my original post. These are mystical, they are special, cannot be understood etc..

What do you say about what Hafiz said regarding homosexuality? Also mystical spiritual language? 

Edited by E.L King

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1 minute ago, E.L King said:

These are not blogs, these were the words of these poets.

I thought you meant poets who are alive today, who write their own blogs. If you mean poems from people who have passed away, it's possible that the English translations are not correct. The person translating the poems into English would not necessarily understand the poetry from a religious perspective. 

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4 minutes ago, E.L King said:

These are not blogs, these were the words of these poets.

I see, basically the same reasoning as what I said in my original post. These are mystical, they are special, cannot be understood etc..

What do you say about what Hafiz said regarding homosexuality? Also mystical spiritual language? 

I have not seen a such thing from hafiz or any. 

Even if that isit should be checked with cautiously. 

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45 minutes ago, E.L King said:

I don't like it due to the references to wine. 

Ayatullah Khomeini (ra) wrote this. Is he then committing kufr or fisq? Are you willing to call a marja with many years of hawza and irfani training, a kufar or fasiq?

How about you open your mind and learn not to take things literally, lest you make accusations towards scholars that are simply not true.

Edited by Gaius I. Caesar

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Just now, Gaius I. Caesar said:

Ayatullah Khomeini (ra) wrote this.

Doesn't change my opinion. I don't like it. 

Now, can someone answer the question in the O.P:

Do you believe this is a good way to worship Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى?

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1 minute ago, E.L King said:

Do you believe this is a good way to worship Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى?

Brother, none of us worship Allah with mystical poetry. Mystical poets are not like us normal people. Leave them alone with their Love poems to Allah. We don't understand them and probably never will. Bringing up an 8 year old topic is useless. 

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@E.L King.

Mohammad Hussain Tabatabai ra says in a poetry. 

"That may path to beloved is through love and worshipping through intoxication. And intelligent ones are outside the circle of lovers. "

So may humble request is don't criticise those lovers by using your intelligence. 

 

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12 minutes ago, E.L King said:

Do you believe this is a good way to worship Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى?

Do you believe that you have knowledge or certainty of knowing that these poems are haram or halal?

Can you comprehend what you are reading, especially without understanding of Irfan?

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11 minutes ago, Hameedeh said:

That is nonsense. Are you going to say you have a problem with companions in Paradise?

What are you talking about? 

8 minutes ago, islam25 said:

@E.L King.

Lip, eyes, eye browse, curling of hair, wine, intoxication and union all have spiritual meanings. They can't express reality without using these words..

Just be patient and do more research. 

Hmm. Exactly as my O.P stated, not surprised with these answers.

3 minutes ago, islam25 said:

@E.L King.

Mohammad Hussain Tabatabai ra says in a poetry. 

"That may path to beloved is through love and worshipping through intoxication. And intelligent ones are outside the circle of lovers. "

So may humble request is don't criticise those lovers by using your intelligence. 

 

As I expected.

11 minutes ago, Hameedeh said:

Brother, none of us worship Allah with mystical poetry. Mystical poets are not like us normal people. Leave them alone with their Love poems to Allah. We don't understand them and probably never will. Bringing up an 8 year old topic is useless. 

They are not like us normal people. What? 

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49 minutes ago, E.L King said:

I don't like it due to the references to wine. 

What if that wine is code for a beautiful thing and not what's haram. In Quran, it is written that in heaven people will have "Sharaban Tahora". Sharab means alcohol but it also means juice and wine is used in same terms. So, would you take two different meanings as one and refute the other. I am not pro-polytheistic sufism but great muslim philosophers have used terms in their poetries which were mistaken for actual things but their real meaning is different.

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6 minutes ago, islam25 said:

@E.L King.

Mohammad Hussain Tabatabai ra says in a poetry. 

"That may path to beloved is through love and worshipping through intoxication. And intelligent ones are outside the circle of lovers. "

So may humble request is don't criticise those lovers by using your intelligence. 

 

Please refer to me to that part of Ayotullah Tabataba'i poetic verse so that I may understand it fully and get the gist of his poetry. 

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1 minute ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

Do you believe that you have knowledge or certainty of knowing that these poems are haram or halal?

Can you comprehend what you are reading, especially without understanding of Irfan?

This has nothing to do with halal or haram. Has everything to do with is this a good way to worship Allah, by ascribing intoxication and wine drinking. Just answer the question and stop beating around the bush. 

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1 minute ago, E.L King said:

not surprised with these answers

I am not surprised with your rudeness or snark. I tried to help you understand but realize that is it a waste of my time. Don't attempt to criticize what you can't or refuse to understand. Those poems are beyond your comprehension.

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2 minutes ago, E.L King said:

This has nothing to do with halal or haram. Has everything to do with is this a good way to worship Allah, by ascribing intoxication and wine drinking. Just answer the question and stop beating around the bush. 

Everyone has his or her way of expression who are we to judge bro. Intoxication means being surrounded by happiness of Allah's Zikr and Allah's remembrance is taken as wine. Are you going to intercede for Ayotullah Tabataba'i? 

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