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E.L King

Al-Wilayah Al-Takweeniya

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Al-Salamu Alaykum.

This is what Shaykh Bashir Al-Najafi (ha) has said about this belief:

السؤال:ما رأي سماحتكم حول ثبوت الولاية التكوينية للنبي الخاتم وللأئمة الأطهار سلام الله عليهم أجمعين من عدَمِها؟ 

الجواب: بسمه سبحانه الولاية التكوينية المعقولة والتي قام عليها الدليل في حق المعصومين (ع) هي القدرة على التصرف بالكائنات تصرفاً تكوينياً كتحول الحجر إلى ذهب وتكلم الحصى على يد الرسول الأعظم (ص) كما روي وكذلك على يد بعض الأنبياء (ع) كتحول العصى إلى ثعبان كل ذلك بصورة الإعجاز أو الكرامة من الله سبحانه على يد المعصوم (ع). وهذا قد يكون فعل المعصوم (ع) حسبما منحه الله من القدرة على إبداء المعجز يقوم به بعد الاستئذان من الله بالقوة التي وهبها الله له وقد يكون فعل الله سبحانه يدعو المعصوم (ع) ويستجيب له سبحانه. وليس المقصود من الولاية التكوينية كما توهم البعض أن الله (العياذ بالله) أحيل على التقاعد وتولى المعصومون (ع) إدارة العالم فهذا قول لا يوجد أبشع منه. أليس الله هو الخالق لهم ورازقهم حينما كانوا في أحشاء أمهاتهم. والله الهادي وهو العالم

http://www.alnajafy.com/list/mainnews-1-677-412.html

I personally want your opinion brother @Ali_Hussain

Edited by E.L King

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1 hour ago, monad said:

perhaps you should have also included the English translation for the lower class non-Arabs. We do like to entertain ourselves with the ideas off the superior breed.

Yes but don't act like that brother/sister no need to be rude

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4 hours ago, monad said:

perhaps you should have also included the English translation for the lower class non-Arabs. We do like to entertain ourselves with the ideas off the superior breed.

lol hahaha true. 

According to google

Question: What is the opinion of your Eminence about the proven state of the Prophet (peace be upon him) and for the pure imams, peace be upon them all or not?

Answer: In the name of the Almighty, the reasonable formative state on which the evidence is based on the infallible (AS) is the ability to behave objectively, as the conversion of stone to gold and speaking of gravel by the great Prophet (PBUH), as well as by some prophets. Snake all this in the form of miracles or dignity of God Almighty by the infallible (p). This may be the act of infallibility (p) as God granted him the ability to manifest the miracle done after the permission of God by the power that God gave him may be the act of God Almighty calls the infallible (AS) and responds to him Almighty. It is not meant by the formative state as some have speculated that Allah (may God's prayers and peace be upon him) was referred to retirement and the infallible (p) took over the management of the world. Is it not God who created them and spit them when they were in the womb of their mothers? And God the Pacific is the world

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3 hours ago, Ron_Burgundy said:

lol hahaha true. 

According to google

Question: What is the opinion of your Eminence about the proven state of the Prophet (peace be upon him) and for the pure imams, peace be upon them all or not?

Answer: In the name of the Almighty, the reasonable formative state on which the evidence is based on the infallible (AS) is the ability to behave objectively, as the conversion of stone to gold and speaking of gravel by the great Prophet (PBUH), as well as by some prophets. Snake all this in the form of miracles or dignity of God Almighty by the infallible (p). This may be the act of infallibility (p) as God granted him the ability to manifest the miracle done after the permission of God by the power that God gave him may be the act of God Almighty calls the infallible (AS) and responds to him Almighty. It is not meant by the formative state as some have speculated that Allah (may God's prayers and peace be upon him) was referred to retirement and the infallible (p) took over the management of the world. Is it not God who created them and spit them when they were in the womb of their mothers? And God the Pacific is the world

That is not a correct translation at all, which is typical of Google translate.

8 hours ago, monad said:

perhaps you should have also included the English translation for the lower class non-Arabs. We do like to entertain ourselves with the ideas off the superior breed.

There is no English translation on his website. I would have done posted it if there was. Never claimed anything about superior and inferior breeds, stop derailing the thread. I might translate it on my own later, but it's not a piece of cake, it's not just one sentence as you call tell.

Edited by E.L King

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Okay so after trying to literally translate this a couple of times - and after realising how difficult it is, I decided to just summarise the points he makes instead of making a bad rough translation.

- the reasonable wilaya al-takweeniya that is given to the ma'soom (as) is the ability to perform acts of supernatural powers upon created entities, either by miracle or karamah given to them by Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى

- examples are given in the Holy Qur'an and the hadiths as proof for the above statement, such as Prophet Musa (as) turning a twig into a snake

- these miraculous abilities are executed either through the power Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى has bestowed upon the ma'soomeen (as) wherein after seeking permission from Allah they would perform this action or سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى or it can be done through du'a wherein the ma'soom (as) would supplicate and Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى would answer his du'a

- and wilayah al-takweeniya is not like some have thought, wherein it is said Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى has "retired" and the ma'sooms (as) have taken over running the affairs of the world, for this is from amongst the ugliest of statements

What do you think of the above brother @Haydar Husayn?

Also, if anyone who knows Arabic believes I may have misinterpreted anything from the above Arabic text, please notify me.

Edited by E.L King

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- and wilayah al-takweeniya is not like some have thought, wherein it is said Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى has "retired" and the ma'sooms (as) have taken over running the affairs of the world, for this is from amongst the ugliest of statements

Its not clear to me who thinks this exactly, but in any case what would be the problem with it? What is usually emphasised is the importance of acknowledging that the Imams are not independent of Allah, and are not equal to Him. Well, the belief that Allah has 'retired' from the affairs of the world doesn't contradict these principles. Neither is it very clear why saying that Allah has retired is a horrible statement, but saying that the Imams share in running the world is perfectly fine. After all, it could simply be argued that the world is only a small part of Allah's creation, and there is no problem in Him delegating the running or it to His highest creations. I don't personally believe this obviously, but I'm not sure what the counter argument is from someone who believes the Imams can create and provide sustenance.

In any case, it's always difficult to know whether to trust answers such as these from scholars. Some people don't believe in openly talking about certain things, due to people's different levels of 'maarifa' (the famous hadith about Salman and Abu Dharr could be used as justification), and that taqiyya is required on certain topics.

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I heard a hadith on this in a discussion with another brother.

 

دثنا محمد بن علي ماجيلويه ره قال حدثنا علي بن إبراهيم بن هاشم عن أبيه عن ياسر الخادم قال قلت للرضا ع ما تقول في التفويض فقال إن الله تبارك و تعالى فوض إلى نبيه ص أمر دينه فقال ما آتاكُمُ الرَّسُولُ فَخُذُوهُ وَ ما نَهاكُمْ عَنْهُ فَانْتَهُوا فأما الخلق و الرزق فلا ثم قال ع إن الله عز و جل يقول اللَّهُ خالِقُ كُلِّ شَيْ‏ءٍ و هو يقول اللَّهُ الَّذِي خَلَقَكُمْ ثُمَّ رَزَقَكُمْ ثُمَّ يُمِيتُكُمْ ثُمَّ يُحْيِيكُمْ هَلْ مِنْ شُرَكائِكُمْ مَنْ يَفْعَلُ مِنْ ذلِكُمْ مِنْ شَيْ‏ءٍ سُبْحانَهُ وَ تَعالى‏ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ‏

From Yāsir, the servant, said, I said to al-Riḍā (عليه السلام), ‘What do you say about al-Tafwīd?’ And he (عليه السلام) said: ‘Allāh (تبارك و تعالى), delegated (fawwaḍa) to His prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) affairs of His religion’, and He said: “Take whatever the Messenger gives to you, and deny for yourself whatever he prohibits” (59:7). As for (delegating) the creation and sustenance, then No! He (عليه السلام) said: ‘Allāh (عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ) says “Allāh is the creator of all things’ (3:16) and He says “It is Allāh, He has created you, then He has given you sustenance, then He has made you die, then He has brought you back to life, are there any of your partners who can does of that any of these things? Glory be to Allāh, and High is He from the partners (they attribute)” (30:40)

`Uyoon al-Akhbaar, vol. 2, ch. 46, pg. 202-203, hadeeth # 3

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1 hour ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Its not clear to me who thinks this exactly, but in any case what would be the problem with it? What is usually emphasised is the importance of acknowledging that the Imams are not independent of Allah, and are not equal to Him. Well, the belief that Allah has 'retired' from the affairs of the world doesn't contradict these principles. Neither is it very clear why saying that Allah has retired is a horrible statement, but saying that the Imams share in running the world is perfectly fine. After all, it could simply be argued that the world is only a small part of Allah's creation, and there is no problem in Him delegating the running or it to His highest creations. I don't personally believe this obviously, but I'm not sure what the counter argument is from someone who believes the Imams can create and provide sustenance.

 

Thank you for the reply brother. Allah bless you. My intention for the creation of this thread was to show that not all people believe wilayah al-takweeniyya in the same light. The above by Shaykh Bashir Al-Najafi (ha) seems to be sound doctrine.

He gives an example, which I didn't translate, which is basically "how can that be (referring to the "ugly statement") while he is the Creator for them and the one who provided sustenence for them while they were in the insides of their mother".

I'm guessing this is related to the claim that Imams (as) are running everything and Allah has allowed them to so, but the counter arguement would be no, Allah has not left the world like this, rather He is still running the affairs of the world i.e sustenence.

1 hour ago, Haydar Husayn said:

In any case, it's always difficult to know whether to trust answers such as these from scholars. Some people don't believe in openly talking about certain things, due to people's different levels of 'maarifa' (the famous hadith about Salman and Abu Dharr could be used as justification), and that taqiyya is required on certain topics.

I have heard this before, actually from people with sound doctrine. They say talking out loud will cause fitna and potentially apostasy, so keep it on the down low. 

Edited by E.L King

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On Sunday, October 29, 2017 at 4:14 PM, E.L King said:

Al-Salamu Alaykum.

This is what Shaykh Bashir Al-Najafi (ha) has said about this belief:

السؤال:ما رأي سماحتكم حول ثبوت الولاية التكوينية للنبي الخاتم وللأئمة الأطهار سلام الله عليهم أجمعين من عدَمِها؟ 

الجواب: بسمه سبحانه الولاية التكوينية المعقولة والتي قام عليها الدليل في حق المعصومين (ع) هي القدرة على التصرف بالكائنات تصرفاً تكوينياً كتحول الحجر إلى ذهب وتكلم الحصى على يد الرسول الأعظم (ص) كما روي وكذلك على يد بعض الأنبياء (ع) كتحول العصى إلى ثعبان كل ذلك بصورة الإعجاز أو الكرامة من الله سبحانه على يد المعصوم (ع). وهذا قد يكون فعل المعصوم (ع) حسبما منحه الله من القدرة على إبداء المعجز يقوم به بعد الاستئذان من الله بالقوة التي وهبها الله له وقد يكون فعل الله سبحانه يدعو المعصوم (ع) ويستجيب له سبحانه. وليس المقصود من الولاية التكوينية كما توهم البعض أن الله (العياذ بالله) أحيل على التقاعد وتولى المعصومون (ع) إدارة العالم فهذا قول لا يوجد أبشع منه. أليس الله هو الخالق لهم ورازقهم حينما كانوا في أحشاء أمهاتهم. والله الهادي وهو العالم

http://www.alnajafy.com/list/mainnews-1-677-412.html

I personally want your opinion brother @Ali_Hussain

Wa 'alaykym assalam, 

Sorry for the late reply brother.

Well if the question is do I believe that this is the belief of the said individual, then my answer that it would be very surprising.

If the question is do I have an issue with what is stated, then no, what is stated seems fine.

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