Jump to content

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

32 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

Listen, non among the visionaries criticized anyone belonging to any faith. However, they criticized core teachings such as that of those Sufis who claimed that Creator and creation is same. So, the Arifeen through their teachings told them that they are wrong and Creator is different from Creation. Tell me, is not the doctrine which says that Creation and creator are same is called Sufism but the teachers of Irfan whom we call Arifeen detest such idea. Before them such ideology is polytheism and not Islam. That is long story short. 

If it was so then imam khomine and Mohhamad Tabatbie ra would be irst to criticise ibn  Arabi .Rather they praised him most. But it is not in the sense they that creator and created are same. Rather they  what ever exists is Allahs. Our own existence is manifestation of Allah's attributes. 

Edited by islam25

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

Listen, non among the visionaries criticized anyone belonging to any faith. However, they criticized core teachings such as that of those Sufis who claimed that Creator and creation is same. So, the Arifeen through their teachings told them that they are wrong and Creator is different from Creation. Tell me, is not the doctrine which says that Creation and creator are same is called Sufism but the teachers of Irfan whom we call Arifeen detest such idea. Before them such ideology is polytheism and not Islam. That is long story short. 

Just read following passage from imam khominis work. 

"So there is a possibility that the preposition 'bi' and the noun ‘Ism’ in 'bismillah’ may be related to 'al-Hamdu; meaning, 'With the name of Allah all praises belong to Him.' It is a manifestation of the glory of Allah that draws every praise to it and does not allow any praise to be a praise of anyone other than Allah, for howsoever you may try, you will not find anyone existing other than Him."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, islam25 said:

If it was so then imam khomine and Mohhamad Tabatbie ra would be irst to criticise it.Rather they praised him most. But it is not they that creator and created are same. They what ever exists is Allah. Our own existence is manifestation of Allah's attributes. 

They have criticized it by saying that Creator and creation are separate and creation is dependent upon creator without whom creation could not exist. Since you have remained in Iran may be you are not aware about Sufi trend in subcontinent. Never had anyone among Ayotullahs' or previous saints said that we are sufis but have said we are student of Marifah. If you are speaking about Sufi orders in Sunnis, then I would like to tell you that they have do differ from polytheistic Sufis but their name being same creates confusion in the minds as to how could they be distinguished from polytheistic sufis. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

They have criticized it by saying that Creator and creation are separate and creation is dependent upon creator without whom creation could not exist. Since you have remained in Iran may be you are not aware about Sufi trend in subcontinent. Never had anyone among Ayotullahs' or previous saints said that we are sufis but have said we are student of Marifah. If you are speaking about Sufi orders in Sunnis, then I would like to tell you that they have do differ from polytheistic Sufis but their name being same creates confusion in the minds as to how could they be distinguished from polytheistic sufis. 

Imam khomine. 

"You will not find anything existing other than Him."

Is khomine polythist according to you. 

Or we have limited understanding. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, islam25 said:

Sofism and shiasm is same. You can follow it. But be confirm that you are not following pseud sofism. 

Sahbaaz qalandar and rabia basri ra were great arifs. 

That is what I mean to say that Sufism has become indistinguishable from Psuedo Sufism and the previous and existing Ulema knew the difference that is why none of them called themselves as Sufis bro but Student of Marifah. Do you know that there is same school opened in Iran to make Irfan indistinguishable from real Irfan and they call themselves as Irfani sect. That is why I say that Irfan and practice of Shariah is the essence of a Waliullah and before me those saints were complete Momineen and Wali of God. 

Edited by Sindbad05

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, islam25 said:

Imam khomine. 

"You will not find anything existing other than Him."

Is khomine polythist according to you. 

Or we have limited understanding. 

So, do you think that Ayotullah is saying that Creator is same as creation, do you consider yourself God ? lolz....

What Ayotullah meant is that real existence is of Allah and our own existence is dependent on Him and if He wills, we are nothing as those many before us are dead. The answer of above question which you will give will define your way as well. Like I told my answer to you. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

So, do you think that Ayotullah is saying that Creator is same as creation, do you consider yourself God ? lolz....

What Ayotullah meant is that real existence is of Allah and our own existence is dependent on Him and if He wills, we are nothing as those many before us are dead. The answer of above question which you will give will define your way as well. Like I told my answer to you. 

Why you defend khomine. 

But when same thing is said by ibne Arabi or hallaj you criticise them. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest ...

What this and all alike discussions show is most Muslims are waiting only for a little excuse to (possibly indirectly) takfir their brothers or accuse them for utmost sins. Very sad cause this is the source of so many problems.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, islam25 said:

How come he has authority to condemn the teaching of philosophy and irfan. Let him condemn but that has no value for those who want to learn it. 

Do you think those who teach are doing it against Islam. Why should the mujtahids in qum teach something that is against Islam. 

To be polite this mujtahid who condemns it actually he himself is not extensively veresed with teachings of islam. 

Well, he does have the right to do that based on what the Imams (as) said. I already showed you plenty of the ahadith which condemn philosophy and Sufism, and I can find more.

Well of course there are mujtahids who are against Islam. Some scholars in Qom condemned philosophy and Sufism as well, like Sayed Sadiq Rouhani. 

He was a top student of Sayed al-Khoei (ra), I'd take him quite seriously.

 

This is from Kitab at-Tawheed of Ibn Babawayh. He has a whole section on philosophy and theology.

1 - أبي رحمه الله قال: حدثنا سعد بن عبد الله، قال: حدثنا أحمد بن محمد بن عيسى، عن الحسن بن محبوب، عن علي بن رئاب، عن أبي بصير، قال: قال أبو جعفر عليه السلام: تكلموا في خلق الله ولا تكلموا في الله فإن الكلام في الله لا يزيد إلا تحيرا.

Abi Rahmat Allah said: From Sa'ad bin Abdillah, from Ahmad bin Muhammad bin Isa, frm Hassan bin Mahboub, from Ali bin Ra'ab, from Abi Baseer who said: Abi Ja'far (as) said: Speak on the creation of Allah and do not speak about Allah for speech (kalam) on Allah does not provide except confusion.


وبهذا الاسناد، عن أبي بصير، قال: قال أبو عبد الله عليه السلام: يهلك أصحاب الكلام، وينجو المسلمون إن المسلمين هم النجباء 
And with this isnad, from Abi Baseer, said: Said Abu Abdullah (as): “People of kalam (theology/philosophy) would perish, and the obedient/submitters(muslims) would be safe, indeed the obedient (muslims) they are of high character.”

 

2 - وبهذا الإسناد، عن الحسن بن محبوب، عن أبي أيوب الخزاز، عن أبي عبيدة، عن أبي جعفر عليه السلام أنه قال: تكلموا في كل شيء ولا تكلموا في الله.

And from this isnad, from Hassan bin Mahboub, from Abi Ayyub al-Khazzaz, from Abi 'Ubaydah, from Abi Ja'far (as) who said: "Speak on all things and do not speak on Allah."

 

3 - وبهذا الإسناد، عن الحسن بن محبوب، عن علي بن رئاب، عن ضريس الكناسي، عن أبي جعفر عليه السلام قال: اذكروا من عظمة الله ما شئتم ولا تذكروا ذاته فإنكم لا تذكرون منه شيئا إلا وهو أعظم منه.

And from this isnad, from Hassan bin Mahboub, from Ali bin Ra'ab, from Dharees al-Kanasi, from Abi Ja'far (as) who said: "Remember (do dhikr of) the greatness of Allah what you like, and do not contemplate on his essence for you will remember nothing from it except that he is greater than it (presumably greater than what we can comprehend).

http://www.elibrary4arab.com/ebooks/misc/altawheed/

If we're talking about philosophy of performing religious rites, like philosophy of azadari for example, thats fine. But don't these narrations advise us to stay away from philosophical matters regarding Allah?

2 hours ago, islam25 said:

ibn  Arabi 

I remember watching a lecture by Ayatollah Muhammad Ridha Shirazi (https://youtu.be/gFmupKumH34), and he mentions around 5:00 something about Ibn Arabi saying in his book that Firaun attained the mercy of Allah when he was drowning in the river. I found a verification of this quote.

 ibn ‘Arabi wrote (as translated by Bewley):

“The consolation of Pharaoh was with the belief Allah gave him when he was drowning. So Allah took him pure and purified. There was no impurity in him since He took him in his belief before he had acquired any wrong actions. Islam effaces what was before it. He made him a sign of His concern so that none might despair of the mercy of Allah, for “no one despairs of solace from Allah except for the unbelievers.” (12:87) If Pharaoh been of those who despair, he would not have embarked on belief. Musa, peace be upon him, was, as the wife of Pharaoh said, “a source of delight for me and for you. Do not kill him. It may well be that he will be of use to us.” That is what happened. Allah gave them use of Musa, although they were not aware that he was a prophet who would destroy the kingdom of Pharaoh and his family.”

astaghfirullah

Edited by Mansur Bakhtiari

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, islam25 said:

Why you defend khomine. 

But when same thing is said by ibne Arabi or hallaj you criticise them. 

I have never criticized Ibne Arabi except for the purpose of questions such as there is a map drawn by him of judgement day for which I have reservations. Secondly, I have never talked about hallaj as well. The reason of this is that I am not aware of them but I will read them. If you see any criticism about them then it is mostly due to wrong interpretation given to their words such as if one says that Ibne Arabi says that Creator and creation is same but it could be that he did not mean that. So, since Ibne Arabi is not from my sect, how can I defend him while there are those who claim to be follower of his sect. I defend people who have views like me such as Ayotullah Khomeini and Ayotullah Seestani, for I know that what are teachings of our Maqtab. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, power said:

All sufis are unanimous in ABU BAKR was a successor, therefore our position (Shias) We reject their ideology. 

no that is not true for all there are many sufis from syeds 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Mansur Bakhtiari said:

Well, he does have the right to do that based on what the Imams (as) said. I already showed you plenty of the ahadith which condemn philosophy and Sufism, and I can find more.

Well of course there are mujtahids who are against Islam. Some scholars in Qom condemned philosophy and Sufism as well, like Sayed Sadiq Rouhani. 

He was a top student of Sayed al-Khoei (ra), I'd take him quite seriously.

 

This is from Kitab at-Tawheed of Ibn Babawayh. He has a whole section on philosophy and theology.

1 - أبي رحمه الله قال: حدثنا سعد بن عبد الله، قال: حدثنا أحمد بن محمد بن عيسى، عن الحسن بن محبوب، عن علي بن رئاب، عن أبي بصير، قال: قال أبو جعفر عليه السلام: تكلموا في خلق الله ولا تكلموا في الله فإن الكلام في الله لا يزيد إلا تحيرا.

Abi Rahmat Allah said: From Sa'ad bin Abdillah, from Ahmad bin Muhammad bin Isa, frm Hassan bin Mahboub, from Ali bin Ra'ab, from Abi Baseer who said: Abi Ja'far (as) said: Speak on the creation of Allah and do not speak about Allah for speech (kalam) on Allah does not provide except confusion.


وبهذا الاسناد، عن أبي بصير، قال: قال أبو عبد الله عليه السلام: يهلك أصحاب الكلام، وينجو المسلمون إن المسلمين هم النجباء 
And with this isnad, from Abi Baseer, said: Said Abu Abdullah (as): “People of kalam (theology/philosophy) would perish, and the obedient/submitters(muslims) would be safe, indeed the obedient (muslims) they are of high character.”

 

2 - وبهذا الإسناد، عن الحسن بن محبوب، عن أبي أيوب الخزاز، عن أبي عبيدة، عن أبي جعفر عليه السلام أنه قال: تكلموا في كل شيء ولا تكلموا في الله.

And from this isnad, from Hassan bin Mahboub, from Abi Ayyub al-Khazzaz, from Abi 'Ubaydah, from Abi Ja'far (as) who said: "Speak on all things and do not speak on Allah."

 

3 - وبهذا الإسناد، عن الحسن بن محبوب، عن علي بن رئاب، عن ضريس الكناسي، عن أبي جعفر عليه السلام قال: اذكروا من عظمة الله ما شئتم ولا تذكروا ذاته فإنكم لا تذكرون منه شيئا إلا وهو أعظم منه.

And from this isnad, from Hassan bin Mahboub, from Ali bin Ra'ab, from Dharees al-Kanasi, from Abi Ja'far (as) who said: "Remember (do dhikr of) the greatness of Allah what you like, and do not contemplate on his essence for you will remember nothing from it except that he is greater than it (presumably greater than what we can comprehend).

http://www.elibrary4arab.com/ebooks/misc/altawheed/

If we're talking about philosophy of performing religious rites, like philosophy of azadari for example, thats fine. But don't these narrations advise us to stay away from philosophical matters regarding Allah?

I remember watching a lecture by Ayatollah Muhammad Ridha Shirazi (https://youtu.be/gFmupKumH34), and he mentions around 5:00 something about Ibn Arabi saying in his book that Firaun attained the mercy of Allah when he was drowning in the river. I found a verification of this quote.

 ibn ‘Arabi wrote (as translated by Bewley):

“The consolation of Pharaoh was with the belief Allah gave him when he was drowning. So Allah took him pure and purified. There was no impurity in him since He took him in his belief before he had acquired any wrong actions. Islam effaces what was before it. He made him a sign of His concern so that none might despair of the mercy of Allah, for “no one despairs of solace from Allah except for the unbelievers.” (12:87) If Pharaoh been of those who despair, he would not have embarked on belief. Musa, peace be upon him, was, as the wife of Pharaoh said, “a source of delight for me and for you. Do not kill him. It may well be that he will be of use to us.” That is what happened. Allah gave them use of Musa, although they were not aware that he was a prophet who would destroy the kingdom of Pharaoh and his family.”

astaghfirullah

Brother, the reason for which Imams' disliked to talk about essence of Allah is that none except whom Allah wants to save bear this path. For there are various confusions in the path and it require patience to endure the pains in the path. So, when Imams saw the weak hearts, he did not talk to them about essence of Allah for if they be told then when next question arise, they will not be able to withstand and soon get perverted. However, Imams never stopped people of true faith and firm belief from philosophy or marifah and that is why we still learn million lessons from them such as Bahlool, Maytham and salman and Miqdad.

The reason for which you have provided the above Hadith is actually used as means to demean great thinkers like Ayotullah Khomeini and Ayotullah Bahjat that is what Mujtaba Shirazi is doing. However, above traditions are for those who think philosophically through their own analogy and not through the teachings of Islam. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, power said:

And there are many syeds who are sunnis.

yes i know, syed ali hajwari asa data ganjbaksh, was a suuni hanafi, but i dont know that was abdullah shah ghazi a sunni? or was imam bari sarkar,who was kazmi, a sunni?

Edited by father

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

I have never criticized Ibne Arabi except for the purpose of questions such as there is a map drawn by him of judgement day for which I have reservations. Secondly, I have never talked about hallaj as well. The reason of this is that I am not aware of them but I will read them. If you see any criticism about them then it is mostly due to wrong interpretation given to their words such as if one says that Ibne Arabi says that Creator and creation is same but it could be that he did not mean that. So, since Ibne Arabi is not from my sect, how can I defend him while there are those who claim to be follower of his sect. I defend people who have views like me such as Ayotullah Khomeini and Ayotullah Seestani, for I know that what are teachings of our Maqtab. 

Regarding ibne Arabi ra. Imam khomine would my life be ransom for ibne Arabi. Why?it seems after imams imam khomine would praise ibne Arabi most. 

Was not khomine aware of ibne Arabi. 

Even imam khomine wrote letter to Russia. That if you want to know Islam then read the ibne Arabi. But to read and learn ibne Arabi, imam khomine said to Russia, send your most genius expert. Then after a time you will come to know. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, islam25 said:

Regarding ibne Arabi ra. Imam khomine would my life be ransom for ibne Arabi. Why?it seems after imams imam khomine would praise ibne Arabi most. 

Show me if he said such that my life be ransom for Ibne Arabi. Please....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, father said:

yes i know is syed ali hajwari was a suuni hanafi, but i dont know that was abdullah shah ghazi a sunni? or was imam bari sarkar,who was kazmi, a sunni?

Abdullah shah ghazi was a sunni sufi, not sure about the other.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Sindbad05 said:

Show me if he said such that my life be ransom for Ibne Arabi. Please....

Mr.that is why I told you just do a work on subject and come forward. 

When khomine invited Russia towards Islam. Khomine introduced Islam to them through ibne Arabi. 

Why? 

There is no sect of shia or sunni when it comes to irfan sofism .It is pure knowledge of Allah beyond our sectarian prejudice. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@islam25 If what you said is truth about Ibne Arabi, then it must be that whole universe was unaware about him and Ayotullah Khomeini has understood him. May be like Hallaj, he was consider as apostate by some like Mujtaba Shirazi call Ayotullah's as apostate (nauzobillah) and Sufis by others such as you. But in reality, he was a true Muslim without anything to do with what people attributed to him. So, I am looking forward to know about Ibne Arabi insha-Allah.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, islam25 said:

Mr.that is why I told you just do a work on subject and come forward. 

When khomine invited Russia towards Islam. Khomine introduced Islam to them through ibne Arabi. 

Why? 

There is no sect of shia or sunni when it comes to irfan sofism .It is pure knowledge of Allah beyond our sectarian prejudice. 

Tell me when did Ayotullah said my life be ransom for him ? Then also show me that letter. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Sindbad05 said:

Brother, the reason for which Imams' disliked to talk about essence of Allah is that none except whom Allah wants to save bear this path. For there are various confusions in the path and it require patience to endure the pains in the path. So, when Imams saw the weak hearts, he did not talk to them about essence of Allah for if they be told then when next question arise, they will not be able to withstand and soon get perverted. However, Imams never stopped people of true faith and firm belief from philosophy or marifah and that is why we still learn million lessons from them such as Bahlool, Maytham and salman and Miqdad.

The reason for which you have provided the above Hadith is actually used as means to demean great thinkers like Ayotullah Khomeini and Ayotullah Bahjat that is what Mujtaba Shirazi is doing. However, above traditions are for those who think philosophically through their own analogy and not through the teachings of Islam. 

Salman and Miqdad were pious men who were very close to Allah that's no doubt, but how did they get to that state? Was it via making philosophical analogies like Ibn Arabi did, or via trying to define the essence of Allah which is beyond our minds capability? And Kalam/Philosophy emerged in the time of our Imams (as). It initially emerged in the 2nd/3rd hijri centuries. So our Imams knew of these people. So when they say "Sufis," "Philosophy," or "Ahlul Kalam," they mean exactly what it sounds like.

38 minutes ago, Mansur Bakhtiari said:


وبهذا الاسناد، عن أبي بصير، قال: قال أبو عبد الله عليه السلام: يهلك أصحاب الكلام، وينجو المسلمون إن المسلمين هم النجباء 
And with this isnad, from Abi Baseer, said: Said Abu Abdullah (as): “People of kalam (theology/philosophy) would perish, and the obedient/submitters(muslims) would be safe, indeed the obedient (muslims) they are of high character.”

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

Tell me when did Ayotullah said my life be ransom for him ? Then also show me that letter. 

I can't give you reference at movement. But you are free to confirm. It is ibne irabi whom khomine praised most after imams. And khomine invited west to Islam through ibne Arabi. 

If ibne Arabi was really such deviant khomine would use him to invite west towards Islam. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Mansur Bakhtiari said:

Salman and Miqdad were pious men who were very close to Allah that's no doubt, but how did they get to that state? Was it via making philosophical analogies like Ibn Arabi did, or via trying to define the essence of Allah which is beyond our minds capability? And Kalam/Philosophy emerged in the time of our Imams (as). It initially emerged in the 2nd/3rd hijri centuries. So our Imams knew of these people. So when they say "Sufis," "Philosophy," or "Ahlul Kalam," they mean exactly what it sounds like.

When Imam imply to someone as bad, they imply to those who have nothing to do with religion. And when Imam says that those who are wrong philosophers, it implies to those who apply analogies. While I know nothing completely about Ibne Arabi, I could not say that he is this or that for it is against justice but I do think that some of his quotes showed remarkable wisdom but many of his things can be wrong. So, I won't be hasty to call him anything unless convinced man.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, islam25 said:

I can't give you reference at movement. But you are free to confirm. It is ibne irabi whom khomine praised most after imams. And khomine invited west to Islam through ibne Arabi. 

If ibne Arabi was really such deviant khomine would use him to invite west towards Islam. 

Hmm, well, I do not know about anyone and do not know what they are, but mostly Sufis twist his words and may be that is why, I am against wrong interpretation. Since, you have praised so much about Ibne Arabi and I have read his quote about nature of Satan, it led me to conclude that he possessed wisdom. So, what you heard about my criticism is actually criticism to anti-Islamic approaches and not to persons. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Recent Posts on ShiaChat!

    • What racist comments?
    • Hello, Not a single rebuke from fellow Shia Chat members or Edits from Shia Chat Moderators?  But, to date, there are two likes? This post clearly violates Shia Chat rule number 4, No swear words, unmannered replies or racist comments, especially when directed at other members. A warning followed by a temporary ban shall be met. If a member repeats their offensive or racist language, a permanent ban will take place. No excuses. Overt slogans of "death" or "destruction" (or similar wording) of any specific government, nation, people, group, or religion is not permitted. However, constructive criticisms of the above are welcomed and encouraged. And, I question the morals of those that would allow a post such as Darth Vader's to go unanswered.  Many of you like to lament about the irrationality of "Islamaphobia."  Yet, you only clap and praise such racist and divisive post. It has been nice chatting with you all.  I have learned what I came here to learn. All the Best, David
    • Wasalam  Are you not allowed to see your daughter anymore sister?  If Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى can understand our thoughts I have no doubt that the creator of heaven, earth and hell can determine our dreams. Anything is possible sister and this very much could be a mercy of Allah bestowed upon you. 
    • Jungle main mor nacha kis ne dekha?? @shiaman14
    • I heared a scholar saying that every sinner will burn in hell. And this burning is to cleanse him from sinns he committed. And this burning of sinner is mercy of Allah. Once he is cleansed from sins he will be send to paradise. 
×