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Salsabeel

28:68 & Saqifah

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:bismillah:

Surah Al-Qasas, Verse 68:

وَرَبُّكَ يَخْلُقُ مَا يَشَاءُ وَيَخْتَارُ مَا كَانَ لَهُمُ الْخِيَرَةُ سُبْحَانَ اللَّهِ وَتَعَالَىٰ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ

And your Lord creates and chooses whom He pleases; to choose is not theirs; glory be to Allah, and exalted be He above what they associate (with Him).

(English - Shakir)

Can we say that what happened in "saqifa" (election of Abu Bakr) was the violation of this verse?

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Abu Muhammad Al Qasim Bin Al A’ala, from Abdul Aziz Bin Muslim who said,

‘We were with Al-Reza (a.s.) at Merv. So we attended a gathering in the central Masjid on the day of Friday in the beginning of our arrival. So they (people) had circled around the matter of the Imamat and they mentioned the numerous differences in people with regards to it. So I went over to my Master and let him know of the contests of the people regarding it.

So he (a.s.) smiled, then said: ‘O Abdul Aziz! The people are ignorant and are being deceived from their opinions. Allah Mighty and Majestic did not Capture (the soul) of His Prophet (sawa) until He (azwj) Completed the Religion for him, and Revealed the Quran unto him wherein is a clarification of everything. There is a Clarification therein of the Permissible, and the Prohibitions, and the Legal Penalties, and the Judgments, and the entirety of whatever the people would be needy to, completely. So The Mighty and Majestic Said: We have not neglected in the Book of anything [6:38].

And He (azwj) Revealed regarding the Farewell Hajj, and it is at the end of his age:Today I Perfected your Religion for you and Completed My Favour upon you, and am Pleased with Al Islam as a Religion for you [5:3]. And the matter of the Imamate is from the completion of the Religion. And he did not pass away until he clarified to his community the information of their Religion and explained to them the ways, and left them upon a direction of the way of the Truth, and he established Ali for them as a flag and an Imam.

And he did not neglect anything for them which the community would be needy to except that he clarified it. So the one who claims that Allah Mighty and Majestic did not Perfect His Religion, so he has rejected the Book of Allah, and the one who rejects the Book of Allah, so he is a disbeliever in it.

Are they recognising the worth of the Imamate and its place in the community that they are allowing their own choice with regards to it? The Imamate is more majestic and worthy, and greater of glory, and loftier of place, and more impregnable of side, and more remote from thoughts than that the people could be reaching it with their intellects, or attain it by their opinions, or that they should be establishing their own imam by their choice.

(Al-Kafi, vol.1, ch.15, H.523 (Extract)).

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I like to add that if some one believes that the selection of the first caliph was made by consultation then Quran itself again rejects this thought in the light of the above verse. The following link further describe this truth:

wasalam

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On 10/24/2017 at 7:56 PM, Salsabeel said:

:bismillah:

Surah Al-Qasas, Verse 68:

وَرَبُّكَ يَخْلُقُ مَا يَشَاءُ وَيَخْتَارُ مَا كَانَ لَهُمُ الْخِيَرَةُ سُبْحَانَ اللَّهِ وَتَعَالَىٰ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ

And your Lord creates and chooses whom He pleases; to choose is not theirs; glory be to Allah, and exalted be He above what they associate (with Him).

(English - Shakir)

Can we say that what happened in "saqifa" (election of Abu Bakr) was the violation of this verse?

What is the context for above verse?

And If saqifa was violation of this verse then what about following verse?

O you who have believed, whoever of you should revert from his religion - Allah will bring forth [in place of them] a people He will love and who will love Him [who are] humble toward the believers, powerful against the disbelievers; they strive in the cause of Allah and do not fear the blame of a critic. That is the favor of Allah ; He bestows it upon whom He wills. And Allah is all-Encompassing and Knowing. (Maida: 54)

Who came in place of those usurpers/tyrants/hypocrites at that time?

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2 hours ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

What is the context for above verse?

And If saqifa was violation of this verse then what about following verse?

O you who have believed, whoever of you should revert from his religion -

1 Whom the verse is referring here?

Edited by skyweb1987

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2 hours ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

What is the context for above verse?

And If saqifa was violation of this verse then what about following verse?

O you who have believed, whoever of you should revert from his religion - Allah will bring forth [in place of them] a people He will love and who will love Him [who are] humble toward the believers, powerful against the disbelievers; they strive in the cause of Allah and do not fear the blame of a critic. That is the favor of Allah ; He bestows it upon whom He wills. And Allah is all-Encompassing and Knowing. (Maida: 54)

how do you consider that this promise has been fulfilled or it was fulfilled at that time you are quoting?

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On 10/27/2017 at 9:03 PM, skyweb1987 said:

1 Whom the verse is referring here?

 

On 10/27/2017 at 9:05 PM, skyweb1987 said:

how do you consider that this promise has been fulfilled or it was fulfilled at that time you are quoting?

 

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On 10/27/2017 at 9:03 PM, skyweb1987 said:

1 Whom the verse is referring here?

The rejection or violation of wilayah is reverting from religion as per shia doctrine. Isnt it?

 

On 10/27/2017 at 9:05 PM, skyweb1987 said:

how do you consider that this promise has been fulfilled or it was fulfilled at that time you are quoting?

I asked for an answer not a question for a question.

 

On 10/27/2017 at 6:28 PM, Munzir Ahmed said:
On 10/24/2017 at 7:56 PM, Salsabeel said:

:bismillah:

Surah Al-Qasas, Verse 68:

وَرَبُّكَ يَخْلُقُ مَا يَشَاءُ وَيَخْتَارُ مَا كَانَ لَهُمُ الْخِيَرَةُ سُبْحَانَ اللَّهِ وَتَعَالَىٰ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ

And your Lord creates and chooses whom He pleases; to choose is not theirs; glory be to Allah, and exalted be He above what they associate (with Him).

(English - Shakir)

Can we say that what happened in "saqifa" (election of Abu Bakr) was the violation of this verse?

What is the context for above verse?

And If saqifa was violation of this verse then what about following verse?

O you who have believed, whoever of you should revert from his religion - Allah will bring forth [in place of them] a people He will love and who will love Him [who are] humble toward the believers, powerful against the disbelievers; they strive in the cause of Allah and do not fear the blame of a critic. That is the favor of Allah ; He bestows it upon whom He wills. And Allah is all-Encompassing and Knowing. (Maida: 54)

Who came in place of those usurpers/tyrants/hypocrites at that time?

 

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On 10/27/2017 at 6:28 PM, Munzir Ahmed said:

What is the context for above verse?

And If saqifa was violation of this verse then what about following verse?

O you who have believed, whoever of you should revert from his religion - Allah will bring forth [in place of them] a people He will love and who will love Him [who are] humble toward the believers, powerful against the disbelievers; they strive in the cause of Allah and do not fear the blame of a critic. That is the favor of Allah ; He bestows it upon whom He wills. And Allah is all-Encompassing and Knowing. (Maida: 54)

Who came in place of those usurpers/tyrants/hypocrites at that time?

 

On 10/24/2017 at 9:09 PM, skyweb1987 said:

I like to add that if some one believes that the selection of the first caliph was made by consultation then Quran itself again rejects this thought in the light of the above verse. The following link further describe this truth:

wasalam

wasalam

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23 hours ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

And If saqifa was violation of this verse then what about following verse?

O you who have believed, whoever of you should revert from his religion - Allah will bring forth [in place of them] a people He will love and who will love Him [who are] humble toward the believers, powerful against the disbelievers; they strive in the cause of Allah and do not fear the blame of a critic. That is the favor of Allah ; He bestows it upon whom He wills. And Allah is all-Encompassing and Knowing. (Maida: 54)

Who came in place of those usurpers/tyrants/hypocrites at that time?

I think the best answer for you is in this tafseer:

"The qualities, mentioned in this verse and verse 29 of al Fat-h (according to well-known traditions written in Sahihs, Musnads and Tafsirs), were owned by no one but Ali. In all the battles fought by the Holy Prophet against the enemies of Allah, the Shaykhayn (the first caliph and the second caliph) never played a decisive role in any battle, nor won victory in single combats or general confrontations; on the contrary they were always either overpowered or ran away from the scene of action. More often they did not carry out the orders given to them by the Holy Prophet. The Holy Prophet knew that Dhith-Thadiyyah was an apostate, so he asked the Shaykhayn to kill him, but they disobeyed and spared his life; and it was this renegade who, according to Sahih Bukhari and others, became the leader of the Khawarij, and was finally killed by Ali in the battle of Nahrawan.

No doubt the Shaykhan and their adherents were severe and hard against the Ahl ul Bayt and their followers .

"Allah shall bring a people", refers to those who, later on, gathered under the banner of Ali (whose qualities have been clearly described in this verse and verse 29 of al Fat-h), in the battles of Jamal, Siffin and Nahrawan. When Ammar ibn Yasir was asked as to how could he fight against the people who professed Islam, he replied: "We fight under the banner of Ali against those who are under the banner of Mu-awiyah, in keeping with the Quran. They professed Islam but concealed infidelity in their hearts, and have now come out in their true colour of apostasy." The followers of Ali strive hard in the way of Allah, not fearing the criticism of the apostates. The devotees of the other Imams of Ahl ul Bayt also come in this category, and according to many commentators of all schools of thought in Islam (Majma ul Bayan) at the time of the reappearance of Imam al Mahdi the world will witness the true interpretation of these phrases of the Quran.

The Muslims did not oppose the actions taken against the apostates in the times of the Shaykhayn, but they criticised Ali ibn abi Talib for fighting against A-isha and Mu-awiyah; therefore, this verse refers only to Ali and his devotees.

There is no historical evidence to prove that the Holy Prophet ever referred to any fight by Abu Bakr, Umar or Uthman against the apostates, but he had predicted Ali's fight against three types of apostates-nakithin (oath-breakers), qasitin (wrong-doers), maraqin (strayed ones). It was also foretold by him that Ammar Yasir would be killed by a group of insurgents.

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On 11/4/2017 at 7:27 PM, Salsabeel said:

"Allah shall bring a people", refers to those who, later on, gathered under the banner of Ali (whose qualities have been clearly described in this verse and verse 29 of al Fat-h), in the battles of Jamal, Siffin and Nahrawan. When Ammar ibn Yasir was asked as to how could he fight against the people who professed Islam, he replied: "We fight under the banner of Ali against those who are under the banner of Mu-awiyah, in keeping with the Quran. They professed Islam but concealed infidelity in their hearts, and have now come out in their true colour of apostasy." The followers of Ali strive hard in the way of Allah, not fearing the criticism of the apostates. The devotees of the other Imams of Ahl ul Bayt also come in this category, and according to many commentators of all schools of thought in Islam (Majma ul Bayan) at the time of the reappearance of Imam al Mahdi the world will witness the true interpretation of these phrases of the Quran.

Those who gathered under banner of Imam Ali - in fact also chose Ali (as) as their caliph - were the same who also gathered around first three caliphs and accepted and supported them, including Ammar bin Yasir. Imam Ali said in famous letter 6 that:

Verily, those who swore allegiance to Abu Bakr, `Umar and `Uthman have sworn allegiance 1 to me on the same basis on which they swore allegiance to them. (On this basis) he who was present has no choice (to consider), and he who was absent has no right to reject; and consultation is confined to the muhajirun and the ansar. If they agree on an individual and take him to be Caliph it will be deemed to mean Allah's pleasure.

Bold part is the most important one. That Allah's pleasure is with the one who is chosen by muhajirun and ansaar. Strong words. In other words after the finality of prophethood Allah's pleasure means which is agreed upon by muhajirun and ansaar. Same group fought against the apostates and the false prophets during the time of Abu bakr, and the same group also fought against the rebellions during the time of Ali. 

On 10/27/2017 at 6:28 PM, Munzir Ahmed said:

they strive in the cause of Allah and do not fear the blame of a critic. That is the favor of Allah ; He bestows it upon whom He wills. And Allah is all-Encompassing and Knowing. (Maida: 54)

But twelvers believe that almost all of their Imams performed taqiyyah several times to save their lives. And the last Imam went into occultation out of fear of being killed. And after Imam Hussain (as) history shows that no one of the Imam was involved in any battle. They played no role in political and military fields. Rather did taqqiyah. In contrast those who were not Imams from their family (as per twelvers) indeed played the active part in politics (following the fottsteps of Imam Hussain) and were big threats to the rulers of that time. Many even decalred their Imamah openly.

Sheikh Mufid says as per bihar ul anwar 37/15...

[...However, Muhammad bin Ja`far rebelled with the sword after his father and called for his own Imamah(leadership) and adopted the title of Commander of the faithful(Ameer-ul-Mu'mineen) although none of those who rebelled from the descendants of abu Talib accepted this title. There is no difference among the Imami Shia that whoever accepts such a title after Ameer-ul-Mu'mineen (as) has committed a great sin so how then can such a man be upon the Sunnah of our messenger (saw)...]

[...The Imami Shia who believe in Musa's Imamah have consensus that `Abdullah bin Ja`far had issues in his faith, this is because he used to adopt the Madhab of the Murji'ah(Sunnies) who regard `Ali and `Uthman as equals... And he claimed Imamah after his father so he was tested with small matters and he failed to answer so what more can we present to prove that this man can't be an Imam?...]

On one hand taqqiyah and on other hand their own sons were agaisnt their Imamah or we can say were unaware about the so called fact that their fathers are divenly appointed.

PROOF OF TAQIYYAH:

Sheikh Mufid in his book Rasa’il al-Ghaybah 3/4:

 إن الذي يظهر من أحوال الأئمة الماضين عليهم السلام أنهم أبيحت لهم التقية من الأعداء ، ولم يكلفوا بالقيام بالسيف مع الظهور ، لعدم مصلحة في ذلك ، ولم يكونوا ملزمين بالدعوة ، بل كانت المصلحة تقتضي الحضور في مجالس الأعداء ، والمخالطة لهم ، ولهذا أذاعوا تحريم إشهار السيوف عنهم ، وحظر الدعوة إليها ، لئلا يزاحم الأعداء ظهورهم وتواجدهم بين الناس . وقد أشاروا إلى مجئ منتظر يكون في أخر الزمان ، إمام منهم ، يكشف الله به الغمة ، ويحيي به السنة ، يهدي به الأمة ، لا تسعه التقية عند ظهوره 

[What is apparent from the situation of the previous Imams (as) is that Taqiyyah was made permissible for them from their enemies, they were not ordered to rebel with the sword when apparent because there was no goodness or benefit from it. The previous Imams were not ordered to make Da`wah(preaching) but rather there were benefits from attending the gatherings of the enemies, and mixing with them, this is why they announced the impermissibility of unsheathing the sword and the impermissibility of calling to their right of leadership, so that the enemies may not interfere with their presence among the people. They (Imams) have pointed to the appearance of an awaited one at the end of times, an Imam just like them, through which Allah lifts the darkness and revives the Sunnah and guides the nation, he is incapable of Taqiyyah in his appearance.]

 

PROOF OF 12th IMAM'S FEAR:

Shaykh Tusi says: The cause of the obstacle in the reappearance of Imam Mahdi (a.s) is nothing but the fear of being killed. Because if there had been any other reason, his remaining in occultation would not have been justified.” Source : Ghaybah, Shaykh Tusi p. 199

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7 hours ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

 

15- And your Lord creates and chooses whom He pleases; to choose is not theirs; glory be to Allah, and exalted be He above what they associate (with Him). 28:68.

This verse in the light of above verses clearly indicates that the selection of representative (prophet / leader / imam/ successor) is the authority of Allah alone. and no one has any right for it. It does not involve any  consultation for  their selection.

16- The way of Allah does  not change:

[This is] the established way of Allah with those who passed on before; and you will not find in the way of Allah any change. (33:62)

17- The people do not have any right for selection of prophet or his representative then certainly they cannot choose any one after the prophet as his caliph ./ successor at their own (by any consultation) without permission by Allah.

Thus what happened after the prophet Muhammad saww for the selection of the Calif Abubakr is considered an innovation or bidda in the religion in violation to the established principles of the quran.

imam Ali AS is not a people chosen caliph he has been declared Mawla , Master at Ghadeer by the prophet Muhammad saww.

Also your answer has no evidence from the quran.  I do reject your claim in the absence of the verse of quran.

Edited by skyweb1987

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On 11/7/2017 at 5:36 PM, skyweb1987 said:

15- And your Lord creates and chooses whom He pleases; to choose is not theirs; glory be to Allah, and exalted be He above what they associate (with Him). 28:68.

This verse in the light of above verses clearly indicates that the selection of representative (prophet / leader / imam/ successor) is the authority of Allah alone. and no one has any right for it. It does not involve any  consultation for  their selection.

16- The way of Allah does  not change:

[This is] the established way of Allah with those who passed on before; and you will not find in the way of Allah any change. (33:62)

17- The people do not have any right for selection of prophet or his representative then certainly they cannot choose any one after the prophet as his caliph ./ successor at their own (by any consultation) without permission by Allah.

Thus what happened after the prophet Muhammad saww for the selection of the Calif Abubakr is considered an innovation or bidda in the religion in violation to the established principles of the quran.

imam Ali AS is not a people chosen caliph he has been declared Mawla , Master at Ghadeer by the prophet Muhammad saww.

Also your answer has no evidence from the quran.  I do reject your claim in the absence of the verse of quran.

Again pick and choose and interpret as you wish. Sometimes Imam, sometimes ulil amr, sometimes caliph and mawla so on.

Verse 28:68 is about mushrikeen makkah's beliefs about false gods, prophets, angels. This verse is talking about shirk. Dont single out verses just because it suits you.

[68-73] Your Lord creates whatever He wills; and chooses (for His work whomever He pleases). To choose is not for them. Allah is Pure and Exalted far above the shirk that these people commit. Your Lord knows what they hide in their hearts and what they reveal. He is Allah, the One: none but He is worthy of worship: to Him is all praise due, both in this world and in the Hereafter: Sovereignty is His, and to Him shall all of you be returned. O Prophet, say to them, "Have you ever considered that if Allah should make the night perpetual for you, till the Day of Resurrection, which deity, besides Allah, would bring you light? Don't you hear anything?" Ask them, "Have you ever considered that if Allah should make the day perpetual for you, till the Day of Resurrection, which deity, besides Allah, would bring you the night so that you may have rest in it? Don't you see anything?" It is His Mercy that He has made the night and the day for you so that you may have rest (in the night) and seek your Lord's bounty (in the day); maybe that you are grateful.

On 11/7/2017 at 5:36 PM, skyweb1987 said:

imam Ali AS is not a people chosen caliph he has been declared Mawla , Master at Ghadeer by the prophet Muhammad saww.

This is nothing but your wishful theory. In reality Imam Ali never considered ghadir like that, thus did not declare himself the divine caliph. But accepted it when chosen by people. Not only accepted but also defended it, let alone consider letter 6.

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On ‎07‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 11:50 AM, Munzir Ahmed said:

Those who gathered under banner of Imam Ali - in fact also chose Ali (as) as their caliph - were the same who also gathered around first three caliphs and accepted and supported them, including Ammar bin Yasir. Imam Ali said in famous letter 6 that:

Verily, those who swore allegiance to Abu Bakr, `Umar and `Uthman have sworn allegiance 1 to me on the same basis on which they swore allegiance to them. (On this basis) he who was present has no choice (to consider), and he who was absent has no right to reject; and consultation is confined to the muhajirun and the ansar. If they agree on an individual and take him to be Caliph it will be deemed to mean Allah's pleasure.

Please quote any verse of Quran from which you can support what happened in Saqifa. The verse 68 of Qasas clearly says the opposite of what companions did in Saqifa. So there is no need to run zigzag and try to derail the thread. I suggest you to quote any single verse of Quran which can support what happened in Saqifa.

On ‎07‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 11:50 AM, Munzir Ahmed said:

 1

"1. When all the people of Medina unanimously swore allegiance to Amir al-mu`minin, Mu`awiyah refused to acquiesce apprehending danger for his own power, and in order to contest Amir al-mu'minin's caliphate he concocted the excuse that it had not been agreed to unaulmously and that there fore after cancelling it there should be another general election, although the caliphate from which (the process of) election was started was the result of a timely situation. There was no question of the common vote therein so that it could be called the result of the people's election. However, it was imposed on the people and assumed to be their verdict. From then it became a principle that whomever the nobles of Medina elected would be deemed to represent the entire world of Islam and no person would be allowed to question it, whether he was present at the time of election or not. In any case, after the establishment of the principle, Mu`awiyah had no right to propose a re-election nor to refuse allegiance when he had in practice recognized these caliphates which, it was alleged, had been settled by the important people of Medina. That is why when he held this election to be invalid and refused allegiance,
Amir al-mu'minin pointed out to him the (recognized) way of election and demolished his argument. It was a method known as arguing with the adversary on the basis of his wrong premises so as to demolish his argument, since Amir al-mu'minin never at any state regarded consultation (with chiefs) or the common vote to be the criterion of validity of the caliphate. Otherwise, in connection with the caliphate about which it is alleged that they were based on the unanimity of the muhajirun and the ansar, he would have regarded that unanimity of vote as a good authority and held them as valid; but his refusal for allegiance in the very first period, which cannot be denied by anyone, is a proof of the fact that he did not regard these self-concocted methods as the criterion of (validity of) the caliphate. That is why at all times he continued pressing his own case for the caliphate, which was also established on the basis of the Prophet's saying and deeds. However, to place it before Mu`awiyah meant opening the door to questions and answers. He therefore attempted to convince him with his own premises and beliefs so that there could be no scope for interpretation or for confusing the matter, in fact Mu'awiyah's real aim was to prolong the matter so that at some point his own authority might get support."

 

On ‎07‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 11:50 AM, Munzir Ahmed said:

Bold part is the most important one. That Allah's pleasure is with the one who is chosen by muhajirun and ansaar. Strong words. In other words after the finality of prophethood Allah's pleasure means which is agreed upon by muhajirun and ansaar. Same group fought against the apostates and the false prophets during the time of Abu bakr, and the same group also fought against the rebellions during the time of Ali. 

Same group has fought against each other in the battle of Jamal, same group has fought against each other in battle of Siffin, Nehrwan....Muhajirun & Ansar killed each other in these battles... If we assume your meaning i.e., Allah's pleasure means which is agreed upon by muhajirun & ansaar, that would mean Allah has not showed us the right way. There is no sirat and there is no Allah's pleasure from last hundreds of years as there are no muhajirun or ansaar.
 

On ‎04‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 7:27 PM, Salsabeel said:

"Allah shall bring a people", refers to those who, later on, gathered under the banner of Ali (whose qualities have been clearly described in this verse and verse 29 of al Fat-h), in the battles of Jamal, Siffin and Nahrawan. When Ammar ibn Yasir was asked as to how could he fight against the people who professed Islam, he replied: "We fight under the banner of Ali against those who are under the banner of Mu-awiyah, in keeping with the Quran. They professed Islam but concealed infidelity in their hearts, and have now come out in their true colour of apostasy." The followers of Ali strive hard in the way of Allah, not fearing the criticism of the apostates. The devotees of the other Imams of Ahl ul Bayt also come in this category, and according to many commentators of all schools of thought in Islam (Majma ul Bayan) at the time of the reappearance of Imam al Mahdi the world will witness the true interpretation of these phrases of the Quran.

 

On ‎07‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 11:50 AM, Munzir Ahmed said:

But twelvers believe that almost all of their Imams performed taqiyyah several times to save their lives. And the last Imam went into occultation out of fear of being killed. And after Imam Hussain (as) history shows that no one of the Imam was involved in any battle. They played no role in political and military fields. Rather did taqqiyah. In contrast those who were not Imams from their family (as per twelvers) indeed played the active part in politics (following the fottsteps of Imam Hussain) and were big threats to the rulers of that time

I don't know why you feel the need to discuss taqiyyah here? I suggest you to provide any verse from Quran which favors what happened in Saqifa.

On ‎24‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 7:56 PM, Salsabeel said:

Surah Al-Qasas, Verse 68:

وَرَبُّكَ يَخْلُقُ مَا يَشَاءُ وَيَخْتَارُ مَا كَانَ لَهُمُ الْخِيَرَةُ سُبْحَانَ اللَّهِ وَتَعَالَىٰ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ

And your Lord creates and chooses whom He pleases; to choose is not theirs; glory be to Allah, and exalted be He above what they associate (with Him).

You can further ponder on this verse, what has been said in the last? Refusing to accept or rejecting the what Allah has chosen equals to shirk.

Lets see some verses:

"Surely (as for) those who return on their backs after the guidance has become manifest to them, the Shaitan has made it a light matter to them; and He gives them respite. That is because they say to those who hate what Allah has revealed: We will obey you in some of the affairs; and Allah knows their secrets." (47:25-26)

 

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4 hours ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

68] Your Lord creates whatever He wills; and chooses (for His work whomever He pleases). To choose is not for them. Allah is Pure and Exalted far above the shirk that these people commit.

69] Your Lord knows what they hide in their hearts and what they reveal.

70] He is Allah, the One: none but He is worthy of worship: to Him is all praise due, both in this world and in the Hereafter: Sovereignty is His, and to Him shall all of you be returned.

71] O Prophet, say to them, "Have you ever considered that if Allah should make the night perpetual for you, till the Day of Resurrection, which deity, besides Allah, would bring you light? Don't you hear anything?"

72] Ask them, "Have you ever considered that if Allah should make the day perpetual for you, till the Day of Resurrection, which deity, besides Allah, would bring you the night so that you may have rest in it? Don't you see anything?"
73] It is His Mercy that He has made the night and the day for you so that you may have rest (in the night) and seek your Lord's bounty (in the day); maybe that you are grateful.

Again jumping here & there :)... why? 

What was the status of Abu Bakr? Khalifatullah or Kalifatunnas or Khalifatul muslimeen?

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8 hours ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

Verse 28:68 is about mushrikeen makkah's beliefs about false gods, prophets, angels. This verse is talking about shirk. Dont single out verses just because it suits you.

[68-73] Your Lord creates whatever He wills; and chooses (for His work whomever He pleases). To choose is not for them. Allah is Pure and Exalted far above the shirk that these people commit. Your Lord knows what they hide in their hearts and what they reveal. He is Allah, the One: none but He is worthy of worship: to Him is all praise due, both in this world and in the Hereafter: Sovereignty is His, and to Him shall all of you be returned. O Prophet, say to them, "Have you ever considered that if Allah should make the night perpetual for you, till the Day of Resurrection, which deity, besides Allah, would bring you light? Don't you hear anything?" Ask them, "Have you ever considered that if Allah should make the day perpetual for you, till the Day of Resurrection, which deity, besides Allah, would bring you the night so that you may have rest in it? Don't you see anything?" It is His Mercy that He has made the night and the day for you so that you may have rest (in the night) and seek your Lord's bounty (in the day); maybe that you are grateful.

The verse quoted above has certainly no proof for the people chosen caliph and it denies the sunni phenomenon of man made caliphate. Rather it again denies thue sunni concept of peole chosen caliph that it is right of Allah swt

wasalam 

 

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18 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

Please quote any verse of Quran from which you can support what happened in Saqifa. The verse 68 of Qasas clearly says the opposite of what companions did in Saqifa. So there is no need to run zigzag and try to derail the thread. I suggest you to quote any single verse of Quran which can support what happened in Saqifa.

Verse 68 is talking about shirk. Read it properly within the context. 

22 hours ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

Verse 28:68 is about mushrikeen makkah's beliefs about false gods, prophets, angels. This verse is talking about shirk. Dont single out verses just because it suits you.

[68-73] Your Lord creates whatever He wills; and chooses (for His work whomever He pleases). To choose is not for them. Allah is Pure and Exalted far above the shirk that these people commit. Your Lord knows what they hide in their hearts and what they reveal. He is Allah, the One: none but He is worthy of worship: to Him is all praise due, both in this world and in the Hereafter: Sovereignty is His, and to Him shall all of you be returned. O Prophet, say to them, "Have you ever considered that if Allah should make the night perpetual for you, till the Day of Resurrection, which deity, besides Allah, would bring you light? Don't you hear anything?" Ask them, "Have you ever considered that if Allah should make the day perpetual for you, till the Day of Resurrection, which deity, besides Allah, would bring you the night so that you may have rest in it? Don't you see anything?" It is His Mercy that He has made the night and the day for you so that you may have rest (in the night) and seek your Lord's bounty (in the day); maybe that you are grateful.

 

As for saqifa and caliphate is concerned Imam Ali (as) had clearly said this responsibilty is confined to muhajirun and anssar and their choice is with pleasure of Allah. If yopu are not accepting then I can not do anything. Muawiya also did not accept Imam Ali's words. Currently you, other twelvers and muawiya are on same page in this matter.

On 11/7/2017 at 11:50 AM, Munzir Ahmed said:

Verily, those who swore allegiance to Abu Bakr, `Umar and `Uthman have sworn allegiance 1 to me on the same basis on which they swore allegiance to them. (On this basis) he who was present has no choice (to consider), and he who was absent has no right to reject; and consultation is confined to the muhajirun and the ansar. If they agree on an individual and take him to be Caliph it will be deemed to mean Allah's pleasure.

Bold part is the most important one. That Allah's pleasure is with the one who is chosen by muhajirun and ansaar. Strong words. In other words after the finality of prophethood Allah's pleasure means which is agreed upon by muhajirun and ansaar. Same group fought against the apostates and the false prophets during the time of Abu bakr, and the same group also fought against the rebellions during the time of Ali. 

 

18 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

"1. When all the people of Medina unanimously swore allegiance to Amir al-mu`minin, Mu`awiyah refused to acquiesce apprehending danger for his own power, and in order to contest Amir al-mu'minin's caliphate he concocted the excuse that it had not been agreed to unaulmously and that there fore after cancelling it there should be another general election, although the caliphate from which (the process of) election was started was the result of a timely situation. There was no question of the common vote therein so that it could be called the result of the people's election. However, it was imposed on the people and assumed to be their verdict. From then it became a principle that whomever the nobles of Medina elected would be deemed to represent the entire world of Islam and no person would be allowed to question it, whether he was present at the time of election or not. In any case, after the establishment of the principle, Mu`awiyah had no right to propose a re-election nor to refuse allegiance when he had in practice recognized these caliphates which, it was alleged, had been settled by the important people of Medina. That is why when he held this election to be invalid and refused allegiance,
Amir al-mu'minin pointed out to him the (recognized) way of election and demolished his argument. It was a method known as arguing with the adversary on the basis of his wrong premises so as to demolish his argument, since Amir al-mu'minin never at any state regarded consultation (with chiefs) or the common vote to be the criterion of validity of the caliphate. Otherwise, in connection with the caliphate about which it is alleged that they were based on the unanimity of the muhajirun and the ansar, he would have regarded that unanimity of vote as a good authority and held them as valid; but his refusal for allegiance in the very first period, which cannot be denied by anyone, is a proof of the fact that he did not regard these self-concocted methods as the criterion of (validity of) the caliphate. That is why at all times he continued pressing his own case for the caliphate, which was also established on the basis of the Prophet's saying and deeds. However, to place it before Mu`awiyah meant opening the door to questions and answers. He therefore attempted to convince him with his own premises and beliefs so that there could be no scope for interpretation or for confusing the matter, in fact Mu'awiyah's real aim was to prolong the matter so that at some point his own authority might get support."

 

 

This part make this assumed explanation irrelevant.

and consultation is confined to the muhajirun and the ansar. If they agree on an individual and take him to be Caliph it will be deemed to mean Allah's pleasure.

Why you have problem in matters where there is Allah's pleasure? Why are you behaving like muawiya here?

 

18 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

Same group has fought against each other in the battle of Jamal, same group has fought against each other in battle of Siffin, Nehrwan....Muhajirun & Ansar killed each other in these battles... If we assume your meaning i.e., Allah's pleasure means which is agreed upon by muhajirun & ansaar, that would mean Allah has not showed us the right way. There is no sirat and there is no Allah's pleasure from last hundreds of years as there are no muhajirun or ansaar.

No. Not same group. By same group it means people of madina (muhajirun and ansaar). Only a few (very small number) fought in those battles from rebellions side. Majority of ahle madina was on Imam Ali's side. Some were also neutral. Most of rebellions were either people of basra or people of syria.

No muhajirun and anssar? seriously. Where is your 12th Imam? to whom you are supposed to follow not any marja? he is absent since 260AH.  Its really too much.

Allah has clearly shown us the right way. His prophet saw has told us each and everything that will happen till qiyamah. He said first there will be a priod of rightly guided caliphs (to which Imam Ali is also saying it is pleasure of Allah), then there will be kings (good and bad), then some colonial powers will rule and there will be divisions like we have today in name of states or countires then finally rightful caliphate at hand of Imam Mahdi. Read all ahadith on this subject then reach a conclusion.

18 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

You can further ponder on this verse, what has been said in the last? Refusing to accept or rejecting the what Allah has chosen equals to shirk.

Lets see some verses:

"Surely (as for) those who return on their backs after the guidance has become manifest to them, the Shaitan has made it a light matter to them; and He gives them respite. That is because they say to those who hate what Allah has revealed: We will obey you in some of the affairs; and Allah knows their secrets." (47:25-26)

I dont pick and choose a verse or part of a verse out of context and make wrong interpretations.

If choice is not yours then why twelvers are choosing marja of their own choice. If you want to apply this verse then do it properly.

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18 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

Again jumping here & there :)... why? 

What was the status of Abu Bakr? Khalifatullah or Kalifatunnas or Khalifatul muslimeen?

Those who are picking and choosing parts of verses are jumping here and there.

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15 hours ago, skyweb1987 said:
23 hours ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

 

[68-73] Your Lord creates whatever He wills; and chooses (for His work whomever He pleases). To choose is not for them. Allah is Pure and Exalted far above the shirk that these people commit. Your Lord knows what they hide in their hearts and what they reveal. He is Allah, the One: none but He is worthy of worship: to Him is all praise due, both in this world and in the Hereafter: Sovereignty is His, and to Him shall all of you be returned. O Prophet, say to them, "Have you ever considered that if Allah should make the night perpetual for you, till the Day of Resurrection, which deity, besides Allah, would bring you light? Don't you hear anything?" Ask them, "Have you ever considered that if Allah should make the day perpetual for you, till the Day of Resurrection, which deity, besides Allah, would bring you the night so that you may have rest in it? Don't you see anything?" It is His Mercy that He has made the night and the day for you so that you may have rest (in the night) and seek your Lord's bounty (in the day); maybe that you are grateful.

The verse quoted above has certainly no proof for the people chosen caliph and it denies the sunni phenomenon of man made caliphate. Rather it again denies thue sunni concept of peole chosen caliph that it is right of Allah swt

Did I say above verses have proof for people chosen caliph? Now you are assuming too much.

What I was saying is this:

23 hours ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

Verse 28:68 is about mushrikeen makkah's beliefs about false gods, prophets, angels. This verse is talking about shirk. Dont single out verses just because it suits you.

 

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18 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

I don't know why you feel the need to discuss taqiyyah here?

Because to whom you consider divinely appointed were so powerless and cowards that they needed taqqiyah to save their lives, this also you claim. Makes no sense.

In this case people chosen caliphs were better, at least they never did taqqiyah. In other words they never misguided people.

Any example in Quran where a divienly appointed person had performed taqqiyah in matters of dawah and guiding others so much that they had no clue about who is the next guide after him?

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7 hours ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

This part make this assumed explanation irrelevant.

:) And it is provided there for people like you with proper reference to the context.

7 hours ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

and consultation is confined to the muhajirun and the ansar. If they agree on an individual and take him to be Caliph it will be deemed to mean Allah's pleasure.

This is in contradiction with 28:68, no one is authorized to chose waliullah, wasi-ur-rasoolallah, khalifatullah & hujjatullah. 

7 hours ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

Why you have problem in matters where there is Allah's pleasure? Why are you behaving like muawiya here?

Pleasure of Allah! Do you know who owns that?

Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 207:

Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 207:
وَمِنَ النَّاسِ مَن يَشْرِي نَفْسَهُ ابْتِغَاءَ مَرْضَاتِ اللَّهِ وَاللَّهُ رَءُوفٌ بِالْعِبَادِ

And among men is he who sells himself to seek the pleasure of Allah; and Allah is Affectionate to the servants.
(English - Shakir)

Again the man Ali ibn Abi Talib (asws). Talking about pleasure of Allah & avoiding to take Ali as your Mowla, that is sufficient for proving who is behaving like Muawiyah (L).

8 hours ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

If choice is not yours then why twelvers are choosing marja of their own choice. If you want to apply this verse then do it properly.

:) Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman were your marjas? In saqifa, ignorants have elected the Khalifah not the marja.

And for marja & faqih we have this verse in Quran:

Surah At-Taubah, Verse 122:
وَمَا كَانَ الْمُؤْمِنُونَ لِيَنفِرُوا كَافَّةً فَلَوْلَا نَفَرَ مِن كُلِّ فِرْقَةٍ مِّنْهُمْ طَائِفَةٌ لِّيَتَفَقَّهُوا فِي الدِّينِ وَلِيُنذِرُوا قَوْمَهُمْ إِذَا رَجَعُوا إِلَيْهِمْ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَحْذَرُونَ

And it does not beseem the believers that they should go forth all together; why should not then a company from every party from among them go forth that they may apply themselves to obtain understanding in religion, and that they may warn their people when they come back to them that they may be cautious?
(English - Shakir)

7 hours ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

Because to whom you consider divinely appointed were so powerless and cowards that they needed taqqiyah to save their lives, this also you claim. Makes no sense.

Let me tell you who were the cowards. Those who ran away from the battles of Uhad, Khandaq, Hunayn etc. Your chosen ones were running like Usayn Bolt in these battles. 

If you think taqaiyyah is the indication of cowardice, you must register your complaint to Allah why He has praised in Quran, the one who did the taqaiyyah :

Surah Ghafir, Verse 28:
وَقَالَ رَجُلٌ مُّؤْمِنٌ مِّنْ آلِ فِرْعَوْنَ يَكْتُمُ إِيمَانَهُ أَتَقْتُلُونَ رَجُلًا أَن يَقُولَ رَبِّيَ اللَّهُ وَقَدْ جَاءَكُم بِالْبَيِّنَاتِ مِن رَّبِّكُمْ وَإِن يَكُ كَاذِبًا فَعَلَيْهِ كَذِبُهُ وَإِن يَكُ صَادِقًا يُصِبْكُم بَعْضُ الَّذِي يَعِدُكُمْ إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يَهْدِي مَنْ هُوَ مُسْرِفٌ كَذَّابٌ

And a believing man of Firon's people who hid his faith said: What! will you slay a man because he says: My Lord is Allah, and indeed he has brought to you clear arguments from your Lord? And if he be a liar, on him will be his lie, and if he be truthful, there will befall you some of that which he threatens you (with); surely Allah does not guide him who is extravagant, a liar:
(English - Shakir)

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On ‎10‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 10:17 AM, Munzir Ahmed said:

No muhajirun and anssar? seriously. Where is your 12th Imam? to whom you are supposed to follow not any marja? he is absent since 260AH.  Its really too much.

LOL, What is the definition of muhajir & ansaar? Do you think he is muhajir or ansaar? That means he is the only pleasure of Allah in this time (this is correct but in the sense that he is the hujjah & Wali of Allah s.w.t ).

Do you think Imam Mehdi exited in the times of first or second Hijrah? Or do you think he existed as ansaar & received the muhajireen, tied in the relation of brotherhood with someone by Prophet?  

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Here is the verse of Quran which you are asking. Not only a verse in fact there is an entire surah with name shura (consultation), while same is not present in your case.

I am quoting here the entire passage not just a verse out of context.

[36-43] Whatever you have been given, is merely a provision for the transitory life of this world, and that which is with Allah is better as well as more lasting. That is for those who have believed and put their trust in their Lord. Who refrain from gross sins and indecencies. Who, when they are angry, forgive. Who obey their Lord, establish the Salat, and conduct their affairs by mutual consultation. Who spend out of what We have given them as sustenance. Who, when they are oppressed, help and defend themselves. The recompense of evil is a like evil, then whoever pardons and seeks reconcilement, his reward is with Allah. Allah does not like the wrongdoers. And those who avenge themselves after they have been wronged, cannot be held blameworthy, for blameworthy indeed are those who oppress others and commit excesses in the land without any right. For such people there is a painful torment. However, the one who practices patience and is forgiving. these indeed are works of great courage and resolution.

This thing has been counted here as one of the best quality of believers. Clearly an opposition to your version of choice is not yours (which you have taken out of context from quran which in fact is talking about matters related to shirk). If choice is not ours then why to do consultation. The verse says conduct your affairs with mutual consultation, caliphate is surely the biggest affair of all. In contrast to conduct the affairs of collective life without consultation is not only the way of ignorance but also a clear violation of the law prescribed by Allah. This law became violeted from the time when Yazid came into power. He was the first one who was made caliph without consultation. So blame is on wrongdoers not on the precribed rule by Allah. Ahadith also tells us that there will be both good and bad caliphs in this ummah. Imam Ali also once cursed people of kufa that may Allah give me good followers and them a bad ruler.

Now read letter 6 once again in light of this verse. Just like muawiyah this letter is also a reference to all those who reject the shura system of caliphate.

Verily, those who swore allegiance to Abu Bakr, `Umar and `Uthman have sworn allegiance 1 to me on the same basis on which they swore allegiance to them. (On this basis) he who was present has no choice (to consider), and he who was absent has no right to reject; and consultation is confined to the muhajirun and the ansar. If they agree on an individual and take him to be Caliph it will be deemed to mean Allah's pleasure.

And prophet saww also used to consult with muhajirun and ansaar and with other tribal chiefs for their collective affairs like battles, etc except in cases where direct revelation came. This consultation was also a part of revelation enjoined by Allah swt during the prophethood of prophet saww.  Thus making it an important pillar of islam.

[159-160] (O Messenger,) it is a great mercy of Allah that you are very gentle and lenient towards them: for, had you been harsh and hard hearted, they all would have broken away from you: so pardon them and implore Allah to forgive them, and take counsel with them in the conduct of the affairs; then, when once you make up your mind (to do a thing), trust in Allah (and do it). Allah likes those who trust in Him in whatever they do. If Allah helps you, no power can overcome you, and if He forsakes you, who is there, then, after Him to help you? Therefore, true believers should trust in Allah alone.

This is the system of government mentioned in quran and is described as one of the best qulaity of believers, unlike imamah. Now answer me following: Where it is mentioned in quran that believing in imams is part of faith, or there will be twelve imams in this ummah etc? Do you have any similar unambiguous verse in quran like we have for shura system? Instead of taking parts of verses from here and there show me just one clear verse showing what you claim. Dont tell me since this and that happened in bani israel so we also have the same rules. There were many things in bani israel which we dont have in final ummah.

This thread may help you http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/61569-the-concept-of-imamah-in-the-quran/

You asked for one verse and ALHAMDULILAH I found mulitple.

We ahlul sunnah believe in quranic system of government, unlike so called imamah concept which is nothing but a man made theory with confused reality. On death of every single Imam people differed badly on who is the next possible Imam. This clearly shows the absence of any nass or narrations with names of imams etc at that time. Thus even some of their sons claimed imamah for themselves, like Abdullah Aftah, son of Jafar Sadiq. For more on this confused reality refer following sources:

Book “Firaq al Shia” by Al Hassan bin Musa Abu Muhammad al Nawbakhti, also in the books al Fusoul al Mukhtarah by Muhammad bin Muhammad bin al Nu’uman known as al Mufid, Bihar al Anwar vol 47 by Muhammad Baqir al Majlisi.

w.salam

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11 minutes ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

Who obey their Lord, establish the Salat, and conduct their affairs by mutual consultation.

"wa amrohum shura baynahum"

Caliphate is not their amr.... 28:68 clarifies it clearly..

"And your Lord creates and chooses whom He pleases; to choose is not theirs;"

Edited by Salsabeel

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