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17 minutes ago, E.L King said:

Christians do not associate a partner with Allah in the same way some Muslims have done such as the certain ghulat sects have done- they claim that Jesus is god himself.

It would be similar to if someone randomly claimed any other human is god himself, and started worshipping him. So say someone said Imam Ali (as) is god, would you say that me and you, have the same god as him? That would be absurd.

But then if one think that if someone belief and contradict the attributes and Essence of God, then surely it can't be same God.

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But then Imagine some Sunnis and Salafis, they believe Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى can be seen by their own eyes in Hereafter, now that would be contradiction to Allah Eccense, because:

{Vision perceives Him not, but He perceives [all] vision, and He is the Subtle, the Acquainted.}[Quran 6:103] 

So can we say that Some Sunnis and Salafis do not believe in God of Muhammad (saws)?

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13 minutes ago, E.L King said:

There is only one God and others worship false gods that they made up. 

I really can't tell from an outside perspective whether others worship God incorrectly, or worship a delusion, but when I was Christian and later agnostic, then Christian again before learning about Islam, I always believed in and worshipped One God. Since I can't read their minds, I just go ahead and assume other non-Muslim God-believers worship God, but have some misconceptions. 

How can they be called People of the Book if they don't believe in The One God, but just a delusion? 

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3 minutes ago, notme said:

I really can't tell from an outside perspective whether others worship God incorrectly, or worship a delusion, but when I was Christian and later agnostic, then Christian again before learning about Islam, I always believed in and worshipped One God. Since I can't read their minds, I just go ahead and assume other non-Muslim God-believers worship God, but have some misconceptions. 

How can they be called People of the Book if they don't believe in The One God, but just a delusion? 

The earlier Christians were Jews who believed in Jesus as a Prophet. They are the people of the book.

Christians who believe Jesus is the actual Son of God or Part of God or God are mushrik.

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5 minutes ago, notme said:

I really can't tell from an outside perspective whether others worship God incorrectly, or worship a delusion, but when I was Christian and later agnostic, then Christian again before learning about Islam, I always believed in and worshipped One God. Since I can't read their minds, I just go ahead and assume other non-Muslim God-believers worship God, but have some misconceptions. 

How can they be called People of the Book if they don't believe in The One God, but just a delusion? 

jews worship one god and don't hold partners to him

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On 10/23/2017 at 6:46 AM, Journal1 said:

Why every time I that I mention Jesus and my love for him, the Muslim person I am speaking with goes into this script, (I feel like it is a script because diverse people have used the same words verbatim), of how they love Jesus too. They say, "One cannot be Muslim unless he believes in Jesus, I love Jesus, I love Jesus more than you" 

Honestly, this shows a great misunderstanding in the Muslim's person understanding. Do Muslim people realize that Christians do not love Jesus like as a prophet, we do not love him a religious duty. We surely do not love him in the context of a person from the Islamic faith would love him. We do not relate nor believe in him as someone from the Islamic faith. They might as well be two completely different people. (They have different life stories, deaths, resurrection, and prophecies told in the Koran and the Bible).

Do Muslim people understand that when a Christian expresses their love for Jesus, they are referring to a love deeper than that of a mother, a child, or a husband/wife? This is a love of "savior", meaning: I was dead and he gave me life. I was poor and he gave me riches. I had ashes, he gave me beauty. He not only gave me life, but a blessed, abundant beautiful. I owe him my life.

To me, this type of response to a Christian who talks about their love for Jesus reveals a wide gap of understanding from the Muslim person. Do you owe Jesus your life, did he stay with all night when you were alone and no one was there, did he sing to you songs and comfort and fill your heart with life, truth, and love? If not, then please don't tell me you love him, because you don't know him to love him. How do you love what you do not know? Maybe you love the idea of him, but not him.

For example, a weak analogy would be you sharing about the birth of your son, and how much your son means to you and he is your life and your joy and your pride. The person you speak with who has never seen your son, nor knows him, says, "I love him too, more than you, I love him so much". He then says, "What's his name, I forgot" and goes his life without ever spending any time with or buying anything for your son. You would say, "Do not tell me you love my son, your words are just lip service, and flattery". Lip service and words are increasingly meaningless in this world when they have no action behind them.

Does this frustration make sense, I always remind myself, the Muslim person has the best intention to make good relations with me, but they just do not understand as they should.

Why can't I love Jesus my way and you love Jesus your way?

I love Mother Teresa for what she has done for the poor. A poor person whom Mother Teresa helped also loves her. Do you think that poor person will have a problem with me loving Mother Teresa my way and him loving her his way?

I love my doctor. His wife loves him too. Do you think the wife and I are competing for his love?

Not sure what the issue is here. At least we don't hate upon Jesus the way Jews do...

This is what I dont get. Christians love Jews because Jesus was Jewish even though the Jews killed (had him) him. And they hate upon Jesus.
Christians have a problem with Muslims loving Jesus because we love Jesus differently from how Christians love Jesus. How does this make any sense?

Edited by shiaman14

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8 minutes ago, notme said:

I really can't tell from an outside perspective whether others worship God incorrectly, or worship a delusion, but when I was Christian and later agnostic, then Christian again before learning about Islam, I always believed in and worshipped One God. Since I can't read their minds, I just go ahead and assume other non-Muslim God-believers worship God, but have some misconceptions. 

How can they be called People of the Book if they don't believe in The One God, but just a delusion? 

Believing in one God is not the the only condition which in determining correct worship from false worship. I gave the example of someone worshipping Imam Ali (as), another example would be someone making up a stone idol and prostrating to it. That would still be one god. But is it the One True God?

People have worshipped false gods before, this isn't new. In the story of Sulayman (as) in the Qur'an, we see there was a people who prostrated to the Sun.

I found her and her people prostrating to the sun instead of Allah, and Satan has made their deeds pleasing to them and averted them from [His] way, so they are not guided, [27:24]

There are other examples from the Qur'an of people worshipping others instead of Allah. 

The term "people of the book" is not related here.

Edited by E.L King

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14 minutes ago, Dhulfikar said:

But then Imagine some Sunnis and Salafis, they believe Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى can be seen by their own eyes in Hereafter, now that would be contradiction to Allah Eccense, because:

{Vision perceives Him not, but He perceives [all] vision, and He is the Subtle, the Acquainted.}[Quran 6:103] 

So can we say that Some Sunnis and Salafis do not believe in God of Muhammad (saws)?

It is not fair to claim that Sunnis and Christians are the same in this case, Christians like I said don't just have a disagreement on the attributes of Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى like I said before, they don't believe in Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى at all. They believe in Jesus, and Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى and Jesus are not the same. We disagree with them on "who is God?".

But, would it be technically wrong to claim Sunnis do not believe in the God of Muhammad (saww), because they attribute to Him blasphemous beliefs? I have seen inter-Shi'a discussions about this personally, and both sides from what I have seen have strong arguments.

NOTE: when I speak of Christians, I am speaking about the majority trinitarians.

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18 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

The earlier Christians were Jews who believed in Jesus as a Prophet. They are the people of the book.

Christians who believe Jesus is the actual Son of God or Part of God or God are mushrik.

They are both "people of the book" in Islamic Fiqh Laws. Their theological differences (unitarian vs trinitarian) make no differences to us in this case - they are treated the same.

Edited by E.L King

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38 minutes ago, notme said:

How can they be called People of the Book if they don't believe in The One God, but just a delusion? 

well they believe in the books torah and gospel i guess that's why. and jews beleive in one god

Edited by father

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41 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

The earlier Christians were Jews who believed in Jesus as a Prophet. They are the people of the book.

Christians who believe Jesus is the actual Son of God or Part of God or God are mushrik.

The ‘Nasara’ have also often been coupled in the Quran with the ‘Yahud’ (Jews) implying an interrelationship of beliefs / overlap of history. However, the Quran also shares disagreements between the two groups 

“And the Jews say,- 'The Christians stand not on anything (nothing true) and the al-Nasara (Christians) say, 'The Jews stand not on-anything although they (both) recite the book….”

so they both are people of book as far as i know

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On ‎10‎/‎26‎/‎2017 at 1:25 AM, notme said:

 

There is only one God. 

 

Of course there is only one God. However that does not stop people from creating religions and making up their own Gods and saying their God is true, real or "THEE ONLY GOD". The Ancient Egytptians had many deities and one main God of the Sun or "The Sun God."

Now we both know this God is not at all the God of the bible. This God does not exist (because there is only one God). 

 

I make my point, that the God of the Quran does not exist. There is only one God, of course. I am making the logical point that what entity the Quran is talking about is not the same as the bible. PERIOD.

If you want to keep claiming that Islam has the same religion or same God or is just a continuance of God's word and and work mankind, you are only deceiving yourself. The God of Islam was created by man

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1 hour ago, E.L King said:

One thing I agree with @Journal1 is Christians and Muslims worshipping the same god is nonsense. Christians worship Jesus, Muslims worship Allah. 

Now, Jews are interesting, I think they would probably find it blasphemous to claim that they have the same god as Christians, since Christians worship someone they would also consider just a man - like Muslims, but who knows.

Thank you. I feel like we are getting somewhere now. It is only logical. When Islam can stand on its own, and stop claiming its validity from Christianity and Judaism then we will see it as it is. Completely different.

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On 25/10/2017 at 11:31 PM, Journal1 said:

Do you not know that Islam contradicts the Christianity and Judaism on almost everything. The religions are FUNDAMENTALY different and superficially similar. By you believing in Islam, you disbelieve inn Christianity. Do you understand this? This was my point. 

Christianity contradicts Judaism in a far more fundamental way than Islam does.

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I always hear from those of the Islamic faith, "How is God three in one? this is illogical!" I give example of water in the form of Ice, Liquid, and Steam. This is water (H2O) (one molecule) in three forms. Or how you yourself are three in one. You have your body, your spirit, and your soul. I try to offer explanation, but yet it is just too much for some to understand. (These same people will probably have a hard time in math, because things get crazy with numbers in there too lol)

The examples you have given are heretical according to mainstream Christian denominations. The H2O analogy actually describes modalism, which is not mainstream Trinitarian doctrine, since it implies the Father took the form of Jesus.

Its interesting you should bring up Mathematics, because Isaac Newton, who was one of the greatest Mathematicians and Physicists of all time made a deep study of the Bible and couldn't bring himself to accept the Trinity. Rather, he had a Unitarian view of God.

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But yet, when I bring up real flat out illogical attribute about the Islamic teachings, no one answers me. 

Like what?

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Islam derives its only basis for truth from whom, Judaism and Christianity, right?

Wrong. Who has ever claimed this?

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You say you believe in all the Prophets, Abraham, the same God, and Mohamad is the last of the prophets. Yet the book you pledge allegiance to is full of contradictions to the Bible (which includes the Torah). I am not talking just big ones like, the Messiah, the character of God, the duties of God, I am talking small ones like names, stories. For example, Jesus is born under a palm tree in the Quran, it was Ishmael who Abraham was willing to sacrifice in the Quran not Isaac (as Jews and Christians know). So here we have this obvious contradiction and break down. And so Islam then says, CHRISTIANITY AND JUDAISM IS CORRUPTED, THEIR BOOK IS CORRUPTED, the Quran is right, forsake all their writings, and follow this one book, the Quran which contradicts everything God revealed about himself prior to Mohamad. This too me is illogical. Not only illogical, but wrong to go against God like this.

Erm... You do realise that there are numerous contradictions even within the four Gospels, right? The Qur'an doesn't affirm that whatever is in the Bible is correct. Rather, it says that the Bible contains guidance and light, but that the Qur'an is the criterion with which to judge what is correct or not. Clearly if the Qur'an explicitly denies that Jesus died on the cross, then clearly it can't affirm everything in the Bible.

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Jesus taught to never kill, but yet the Prophet Mohamad killed people. Clearly this man was not following the teachings of Jesus, nor Judaism. He started his own religion which you now follow.

Since you believe Jesus is God, then you believe that Jesus ordered all the killings that happened in the Old Testament (for example the slaughter of all the Amalekites). I don't know what so many Christians try to run away from this obvious consequence of their beliefs.

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Your point about Islam being the final school, or that now we are ready for Islam so that's why God chose to reveal Islam, and it is the complete program of life, like college. 

My response: So you are saying everything was building up to Islam. So Islam was God's plan for humanity to redeem humanity? This does not make sense. Because for since Moses the Jews lived under the law of God, this perfect law and the prophets prophesied about a Messiah who would come from the line of David who would redeem people and establish a new kingdom on earth (SPIRITUAL KINGDOM). Therefore when Jesus came he opened the door to God to Gentiles, (people not Jewish).

It doesn't seem to me that Jesus spent much time preaching to the Gentiles. That seems to be Paul's work. Jesus seemed primarily concerned with the Jews: 'He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."' (Matthew 15:24)

In his earthly ministry Jesus also failed to live up to Jewish expectations of what the Messiah would accomplish, which is one of the reasons they don't believe in him, so I don't know how much appealing to those prophecies helps you.

 

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So now anyone can know God. That is why in Christianity we are black, white, Asian, Mexican, Arab, it is not about a ethnic tribe but God reaching out to the whole world through Jesus.

In case you hadn't noticed, this is equally true, if not more so, of Islam.

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Yet you say God went back to the law? Not only back to the law, but changed it.

No, we claim that God never abolished the Law, even if He may have modified it. As Jesus said:

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5)

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Made it in Arabic, killed a lot of people to do it.

Arabic is at least another Semitic language, like Hebrew and Aramaic, unlike Koine Greek, which the New Testament is written in.

As for killing people, it seems to me that a lot less people died to establish Islam than died to establish God's people in the Holy Land. And as you say, since God doesn't change, why should there be an issue?

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I am so sorry I am just lost in all of this. Do you know Mohamad killed people? Like why would God begin this new program by killing people? You know how Christianity spread? By not Christians "killing", but healing, raising the dead to life, (not just talking, because the bible says the Kingdom of God is not a matter of words, but of power) but also Christians- DYING. Just like they are today for believing in Jesus. I am sorry but it is hard to have this conversation because I do not know where to start when you have a completely different God than me.

Again, you need to address all the killings that happened in the Old Testament if you are going to use this line of argument. Not to mention that much of Christianity's spread happened at the hands of the Roman Empire, which did kill people. Not to mention European colonialism.

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Jesus never ordered women to wear a hijab. I used the pony tail example because Muslims associate hair with beauty and all these things, So I just wanted to get her hair out of the picture, so you would get the picture I was painting, that her life, her work, her - She was more than just her hair or beauty. And if consider wearing a hijab serving the Lord or "work" you do not know what it means to serve him. The Hijab to me is culture, I live in the Middle East so I know culture when I see it. 

Paul ordered women to cover their hair, and Jesus never told women to take their veils off either.

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And I get my knowledge about Islam from everywhere, school, life, relationships, etc.

That's good, but I think you still have some way to go if you want to convince Muslims that you understand their faith.

Edited by Haydar Husayn

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1 hour ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

Not all Christians worship Jesus. 

I agree, because many people say they are Christian but do not know, love, or worship Jesus. The Lord knows those who are His

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9 minutes ago, Journal1 said:

Thank you. I feel like we are getting somewhere now. It is only logical. When Islam can stand on its own, and stop claiming its validity from Christianity and Judaism then we will see it as it is. Completely different.

Islam does not claim or need validity from the two above religions, certain Muslims sometimes want validations from Christians and Jews so at times you will notice incorrect and unorthodox arguments from the Muslim side.

Islam claims to be the one true religion, from Adam to now. There has not been a change in religion - what Islam says is that Jews and Christians have deviated from Islam (what the Prophets taught) and created their own religions, wrote their own texts, and falsified doctrine.

So simply, Islam would view Judaism and Christianity as deviated religions from what the Torah and Injeel, and what Musa and Isa, actually taught, which is Islam.

It's not that Islam is like a final revelation, and before that there was Christianity, and before that there was Judaism, as some Muslims incorrectly believe.

No, Islam has been Allah's religion since he created Adam.

Edited by E.L King

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58 minutes ago, notme said:

I really can't tell from an outside perspective whether others worship God incorrectly, or worship a delusion, but when I was Christian and later agnostic, then Christian again before learning about Islam, I always believed in and worshipped One God. Since I can't read their minds, I just go ahead and assume other non-Muslim God-believers worship God, but have some misconceptions. 

How can they be called People of the Book if they don't believe in The One God, but just a delusion? 

I hate to tell you, but you were never a real Christian, you never really knew Jesus. If you did you would never have left. The book of 1 John speaks of people like yourself who say , "I was a Christian, then agnostic, then now Islam". You never really knew Jesus. Yo may have had the title "Christian" and though you were a Christian but you never really knew Jesus. And you could probably agree with me on that and say "Yes, I never knew Jesus" because clearly you didn't to be a self claimed Muslim now. 

 

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1 minute ago, Journal1 said:

I hate to tell you, but you were never a real Christian, you never really knew Jesus. If you did you would never have left. The book of 1 John speaks of people like yourself who say , "I was a Christian, then agnostic, then now Islam". You never really knew Jesus. Yo may have had the title "Christian" and though you were a Christian but you never really knew Jesus. And you could probably agree with me on that and say "Yes, I never knew Jesus" because clearly you didn't to be a self claimed Muslim now. 

 

Hey now, stop with the attacks. Focus on the discussion.

Edited by Islandsandmirrors

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3 minutes ago, E.L King said:

Islam does not claim or need validity from the two above religions, Muslims sometimes want validations from Christians and Jews so you at times you will notice incorrect and unorthodox arguments from the Muslim side.

Islam claims to be the one true religion, since Adam to now. There has not been a change in religion - what Islam says is that Jews and Christians have deviated from Islam (what the Prophets taught) and created their own religions, wrote their own texts, and falsified doctrine.

So simply, Islam would view Judaism and Christianity as deviated religions from what the Torah and Injeel, and what Musa and Isa, actually taught. 

Okay... Islam gets everything from the previous two religions, talks about us all in your book, literally. No where in our book does it mention Muslims, or the Mohamad, because the false prophet Mohamad did not come until 560 AD. But it did warn us about false prophets coming in sheep's clothing to deceive many people, coming with a different story, and then sure enough this religion came that has deceived many people. This is really a sad thing that I am not happy about. I do not take pleasure in, I am greatly saddened and I pray with all my heart that some might have their understandings enlightened and their hearts opened to see Jesus for who he truly is.

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1 minute ago, Islandsandmirrors said:

Hey now, stop with the attacks. Focus on the discussion.

How is this an attack? This is what the Holy Bible says:

I John 2:18

Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

He never was a Christian. Maybe he needs to hear it because maybe he believed he could be a "Christian" without knowing Jesus.

In my faith you are not born a Christian, you are not one because your parents are on, it is very personal, and you have to make a choice to accept, believe in and follow Jesus. And know HIM personally. It is not even about a religion, but it about a relationship.

The bible is clear

 

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Just now, Journal1 said:

Okay... Islam gets everything from the previous two religions, talks about us all in your book, literally. No where in our book does it mention Muslims, or the Mohamad, because the false prophet Mohamad did not come until 560 AD. But it did warn us about false prophets coming in sheep's clothing to deceive many people, coming with a different story, and then sure enough this religion came that has deceived many people. This is really a sad thing that I am not happy about. I do not take pleasure in, I am greatly saddened and I pray with all my heart that some might have their understandings enlightened and their hearts opened to see Jesus for who he truly is.

Ahhh it seems you have misunderstood what I read. Please read my comment again. The Qur'an talks about you people because it seeks to guide you from your falsehood and polytheism, and other heretical beliefs, and correct your views on the books and the Prophets.

I have not mentioned "Bible talks about Muhammad" once, that discussion is meaningless to me. I am here to correct your view on Islam, not to discuss Christianity and the Bible with you.

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10 minutes ago, E.L King said:

So simply, Islam would view Judaism and Christianity as deviated religions from what the Torah and Injeel, and what Musa and Isa, actually taught. 

You clearly have never read the Torah, nor Injeel because you would not continue to logically think that Islam is an extension of them when it goes precisely against everything Jesus taught in the Injeel and everything Musa taught in the Torah.

Why would God literally forsake all his prophets and all their teachings for one man - Mohamad to start this radically new and totalitarian political religion. Honestly, I have never witnessed a religion in my life so POLITICAL as Islam. I know many people in the UK and Western countries of course view and experience it as religion but try being Muslim in Middle East (Where I live) It is a relationship between society, the government, and the religion. 

God help us.

 

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14 minutes ago, Journal1 said:

You clearly have never read the Torah, nor Injeel because you would not continue to logically think that Islam is an extension of them when it goes precisely against everything Jesus taught in the Injeel and everything Musa taught in the Torah.

Why would God literally forsake all his prophets and all their teachings for one man - Mohamad to start this radically new and totalitarian political religion. Honestly, I have never witnessed a religion in my life so POLITICAL as Islam. I know many people in the UK and Western countries of course view and experience it as religion but try being Muslim in Middle East (Where I live) It is a relationship between society, the government, and the religion. 

God help us.

 

As you can see, you are arguing against me by applying to me what I am arguing against. I don't view Islam as an extension of Judaism and Christianity, Judaism and Christianity are just deviant and false religions.

I literally said this, and I quote:

It's not that Islam is like a final revelation, and before that there was Christianity, and before that there was Judaism, as some Muslims incorrectly believe.

No, Islam has been Allah's religion since he created Adam.

As you can see, Islam is not an extension of Christianity and Judaism, those two are simply falsified religions made by man, like Zoroastrianism, Hindusim etc...

Islam is the one true faith, since Adam's creation. This is what Islam says. Nothing about "extension", Christianity is just as kufr as Hinduism or paganism.

Also, I don't believe anything in the Torah or the Bible, as the Qur'an is the judge of what is truthful, so unless it is in line with the Qur'an, then it's worth nothing and words are meaningless to me.

Edited by E.L King

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16 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Christianity contradicts Judaism in a far more fundamental way than Islam does.

Christianity is a fulfillment of all the prophecies in Judaism. Brother it is so hard for me to have this conversation when you clearly do not study neither the Bible nor the Torah. You may try to quote it to justify or validate Islam, but clearly you have not studied it to make this statement. You have not studied it deeply.

I just said it and will not repeat it again. In all my posts I am making the point that Islam has different stories, names, places, dates, teachings, commands, and yet claim that they believe in the prophets of Judaism and Christianity? YOU HAVE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT TEACHINGS. This is illogical to me to really tell yourself that that somehow you are in the same flock. I would love for you to be in the flock of Jesus, and welcome, but you believe somehow now that you already are in the flock and I am just pointing out it is illogical to think we are one in the same. Islam is actually a contradiction. I do not expect you to believe in Christianity but just admit that you cannot call say you believe in all three books are accept our prophets when the Quran changes the words, stories, teachings, requirements. 

Since you believe Jesus is God, then you believe that Jesus ordered all the killings that happened in the Old Testament (for example the slaughter of all the Amalekites). I don't know what so many Christians try to run away from this obvious consequence of their beliefs.

Those people were under the judgement of the God. Up until the time of Jesus there was Jew and Gentile. People with God's Word and presence, and people without. When Jesus came and revealed the Father and the Salvation that  would go to the ends of the world, everything changed and now there is neither Jew nor Gentile but Christ in all and for all. So at to why Mohamad try to go backward and slaughter people and call it serving God, I have no idea than what Jesus said, 'Satan came to steal, kill, and destroy, BUT I HAVE COME TO GIVE LIFE AND LIFE MORE ABUNDANTLY"

In his earthly ministry Jesus also failed to live up to Jewish expectations of what the Messiah would accomplish, which is one of the reasons they don't believe in him, so I don't know how much appealing to those prophecies helps you.

Yes of course, their expectations of the Messiah was a "POLITICAL FIGURE". Jesus did not come as they expected him

In case you hadn't noticed, this is equally true, if not more so, of Islam.

No, not when you push the language of Arabic people. And require within the religion people to travel to Saudia Arabia and support the economy of the worst prison of a country in the world (Where Jews and Christians are not allowed to go, and are persecuted)(There is a secret underground church there, if the government found them they would probably be killed, but yet that's true Islam?)

No, we claim that God never abolished the Law, even if He may have modified it. As Jesus said:

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5)

Yes he did fulfill it. He was perfect, the only one who could ever fulfill the law of Moses. You see everyone fell short. No one could fulfill the perfect law and Moses. If you break one law, you are guilty of breaking them all. When Jesus came he fulfilled the perfect law, all 613 laws. And he died, our death. he is the perfect lamb of god, the perfect sacrifice. The only perfect sacrifice. So he freed us from the Law and the Gospel of Jesus Christ is now here in full action. The bible says in 1 John 1:11:

He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God. 

and the Gospel is again declared (everywhere) but here again:

Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,[i] through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

 

As for killing people, it seems to me that a lot less people died to establish Islam than died to establish God's people in the Holy Land. And as you say, since God doesn't change, why should there be an issue?

When God ordered those killings, the people were not Jews and Christians. The God of Islam ordered Jews and Christians to be killed? or taxed? God ordered his own people and the people whom he had opened up a new era of Salvation through Jesus Christ to be killed? To say this about God is to really distort his character and I wonder if you are doing to justify your religion. Do you love your religion as God and/or more than God? I am being honest when I sometimes I believe some people are worshipping, not God - but "Islam" and their own selves and glorying in their own righteousness believing they can save themselves. It truly is a deception.

Again, you need to address all the killings that happened in the Old Testament if you are going to use this line of argument. Not to mention that much of Christianity's spread happened at the hands of the Roman Empire, which did kill people. Not to mention European colonialism.

Okay you want to keep on referencing the Old Testament as an Excuse as to why since the day Islam came into the world, it has been started with killing and murder and even today is terrorizing the whole world. There has been countless contribution of the JUDEO CHRISTIAN values to this world, governments, and societies. Even here in the Middle East, many enjoy the technological advances and benefits of the idea of "Human Rights" (Country of Jordan where I write from). But when I look what had Islam contributed to the world? Shariah law? That even today is being reformed because it stand grossly unjust in everyone who can see clearly eyes.

Paul ordered women to cover their hair, and Jesus never told women to take their veils off either.

If you want to talk about Paul and legitimize him and his words, then why do you focus only on the words for your argument?  You do not understand the Gospel of Jesus Christ and I pray one day you do.

That's good, but I think you still have done way to go if you want to convince Muslims that you understand their faith.

Honestly, I do not understand the faith. I know many good people whom I love, they are people, I love them. Islam, from what I know, I do not love. I honestly am very tired and I wrote in a hurry, I hope I did not seem to coarse I enjoy these conversations. Next time I will make sure to have more time to write a more thorough and well written response.

 

Honestly, God bless you, may we continue to both pursue truth, the way of the Lord, righteousness, love and peace and call on God from a pure heart. 

(Good night!)

 

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25 minutes ago, E.L King said:

As you can see, you are arguing against me by applying to me what I am arguing against. I don't view Islam as an extension of Judaism and Christianity, Judaism and Christianity are just deviant and false religions.

I literally said this, and I quote:

It's not that Islam is like a final revelation, and before that there was Christianity, and before that there was Judaism, as some Muslims incorrectly believe.

No, Islam has been Allah's religion since he created Adam.

As you can see, Islam is not an extension of Christianity and Judaism, those two are simply falsified religions made by man, like Zoroastrianism, Hindusim etc...

Islam is the one true faith, since Adam's creation. This is what Islam says. Nothing about "extension", Christianity is just as kufr as Hinduism or paganism.

Also, I don't believe anything in the Torah or the Bible, as the Qur'an is the judge of what is truthful, so unless it is in line with the Qur'an, then it's worth nothing and words are meaningless to me.

I must have had in mind another Muslim person response. I understand that people with Islam have different beliefs and viewpoints on these matters and do not completely agree on everything (especially the basis of how you see other faiths)

In any who...

Honestly I wonder of these conversation's go any where or if they are a complete waste of time? This should be a question lol

 

Anyways thanks for sharing what you believe and allowing me to see the incredible diversity and viewpoints of people in Islam. Thanks for responding and God bless you. GOOD NIGHT 

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