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22 hours ago, AmirAlmuminin Lover said:

Hello

Jesus is not a property that some Christians believe they own him and every other religion goes to hell. I remember how US movie industry make movies to make fun of Jesus and Moses. What did churches do for that??

If my father order me to do something and my beloved Jesus to something else, what would you think I'll do? Absolutely, I follow Jesus. 

For your question let's go to Quran and find the answer. Quran, Al-Bagharah Sourah, Page 21:

قولو أمنا بالله و ما أنزل الینا و ما أنزل إلی ابراهیم و اسماعیل و اسحاق و یعقوب و الاسباط و ما اوتی موسی و عیسی لانفرق بین أحد منهم و نحن له مسلمون

Translation: Tell them(Christians and Jews) that we believe in what is sent to us and sent to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Joseph and his posterity, and we follow what is given to Moses and what is given to Jesus. We don't differentiate them and we completely submit to them.

That is Quran. I am not only Mohammad follower, I'm Moses, Jesus and all previous prophets follower according to Quran, and I'm proud of it.

You said you love Jesus. Let's go and take a look at bible.

"She said to the servant, "Who is that man walking in the field to meet us?" And the servant said, "He is my master." Then she took her veil and covered herself.". (Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Veils)

Why don't Christian women cover themselves? If they love him, they must follow him. There is a lot of these in bible. It's a good idea to take a look at your book. Muslim women cover themselves because they LOVE Mohammad truly. We show our love by ACTIONS not in words.

I don't expect my answers to affect on you because Quran says:

و لن ترضی عنک الیهود و لاالنصاری حتی تتبع ملتهم

Translation: Whatever reason you bring for them, they won't follow you till you follow them(Of course we have some good verses in Quran for good truth seeker Christians too)

Hello to you there in Iran

I am writing from Amman, Jordan, Greetings

I must say please do not be misled to believe that the US or Western Entertainment industry represent Christianity. As you can see, they are at enmity with Christ. In the United States they teach God is not real, and are promoting homosexuality in schools to children. The Christians there are the only ones holding up the banner of righteousness in these Western Countries so have mercy on them. I know Muslims and Christians agree these things are not of God.

This is righteous of you to know that God is above parents authority and the like. God bless you sincerely. You use the word "beloved" but what does this word mean? My point is it does mean to you the same as for me? Do you see?

You say you follow of all Gods prophet but what book do you forsake all other books and Prophets for, the Quran - and if I might call it MHMD's book.

Correct me if I am wrong the Quran was revealed to MHMD over a period of 23 years by the angel Gabriel. Retained by memorization for almost 50 years by MHMD, companions, and followers, the current written copy was collected almost 20 years after MHMD's death. It was revealed and written in Arabic, has to be memorized/ recited in Arabic. Inspired in words/ meaning not interpretation. God recited- MHMD memorized- recited it back to scribe. Is this true?

So you say you love all the prophets but you pay attention only to the one Prophet's writings and this book?? 

It seems you follow Mohamad, more than God. You respond, but "O Mohamad is the way to God, he is the final Prophet"

I respond: "You believe he is the final Prophet?- yet he does not align with the truth of the previous prophets, says Islam is with their teachings but in the same breath says their teachings are corrupted? How is this logic?

Regarding Christian women veiling:

What is God more pleased with a woman who puts a hijab on her head. Yet she sits in fancy houses, and she wears the finest clothes and when the children in her city are thirsty, she gives them no water!

Or the woman who has sneakers on her feet, hair pulled back tight in a pony tail and she is on the streets picking up the trash, holding the children, talking to young girls, prostitutes, lost people who have no religion or God, telling them God loves them and inviting them to her home and to her church. She has sweat on her brow because she has walked far, she has fire in her heart because God has called her to this life of serving him.

Do not look at the outside my brother, for we will all be deceived. The hijab is a religious garment, but the living God is not as concerned with our garments as he is with our hearts.

Christian women are not obliged to show their love for God by wearing a head scarf, but rather to show their love for God, by feeling his heart beat for the lost, for the children who have no one to care for them, and for the people that need to hear about him. That is real action, not wearing a garment, who do you make God out to be?

We do not serve God for ourselves, for our own Glory, to say look at me, I serve God, look I am wearing religious clothes, I am righteous. We serve God for Him, for his glory, that people might look at him, and say he is beautiful.

God bless you there in Iran, I truly pray for you. I know you have different battle than me and I pray God brings you into his Kingdom.

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1 hour ago, Journal1 said:

When you are in the face of the real God, in the presence of unspeakable light, holiness, pureness, truth, power...

He does not need to say "Worship me".

You fall on your face and just weep because it is overwhelming. In my understanding, God does not need to command people to worship him. Jesus is not a dictator, and neither is God.

this is what we all feel for God.. but you are not differentiating between Jesus and God. 

it is a major sin in our religion to call Jesus God.. or any other man.

 

And btw islam doesnt emphasis on men only.. shia islam talks alot about Bibi Fatima a.s and Mary a.s.

remember you are given a very distorted image of islam in the west. (deliberate)

didnt Jacob marry four wives?

 

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21 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

Hi Journal1, welcome to the site. I've been on this site a while and I think you'll find some very knowledgeable people here. It's a really good place to ask.

The reason for the "more than you" is reciprocal. Both sides sit back and believe the other is wrong in perspective, thus we are on opposing sides. Not true.

The reason I am here is because the Lord showed me that Muslims and Christians can actually worship together, feel the presence of the Lord together, and love...on the same level. I'm not the only one who has had opportunity to discouver this, add Robert Schuller,  and Billy Graham to those who have said Muslims will go to Heaven, and nothing about turning to a life in Christ...as Muslims. 

I'm going by what I've learned, not by what I was originally taught. I was brought up Baptist.

God bless you,

Do you not believe in the Bible?

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22 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Really?

Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.' (Matthew 4:10)

There are numerous passages in the Old Testament where God commands His people to worship Him, to love Him, to worship no other than Him, and that He is a jealous God. Meanwhile in the Book of Revelation, Jesus comes back and kills all his enemies, presumably in order to bring in the state in which 'every knee shall bow, and every tongue shall confess to God' (Romans 14:11). So it seems highly questionable to say that God doesn't need to command people to worship Him.

Honestly, I am aware of the commandments in the Old testaments, I was going to delve into that but I wanted to keep my post not too long.

Jesus here is quoting the Old testament commandments. And he teaches us here how to battle in the heavenlies and to use the Word of God when the enemy lies to us. The Word is like a sword. 

For instance: The devil says, "God does not forgive you, you will go to hell."

Gods Word: "It is written, "For there is now no more condemnation for those who at in Christ Jesus."

Jesus gave us this example of Spiritual warfare that we are able to defeat Satan's lies with the truth of his word. The bible says, "For the Word of God is living and active, sharper than any double-edged sword, able to divide joints and marrow, soul and spirit." (Hebrews 4:12) There's much more to say on this but, it's beside the point.

So I want to bring up this point that I prevented myself from bringing up earlier for the purpose of saving space:

Nowhere in the New Testament do you hear Jesus commanding Worship, people just worshipped him, and he accepted it. Must I write all the stories or do you know them? You clearly know Revelations where it is written that "Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the Glory of God the Father."

I want to make a strong point, that even here, it is not implied this forced Worship. This could be that when God is revealed, everyone is just blown away by his glory and willingly just gives him the praise He is worthy of. To be honest, I believe forced worship is not worship at all. It is service but not worship. 

Worship is sacrificial. Worship is sacrifice. Look at the story of Abraham and the Torah, people would bring goats and lambs to sacrifice in worship to God. 

That is why God gives everyone a choice. 

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1 hour ago, Journal1 said:

Good analogy, it makes me smile.

They say beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I assume love is in the heart of the holder, and no one knows its depth.

I can only answer this way, I would rather be married to the first husband lol He seems like he loves her more.

Ugh. No. Been there. 

I guess that's a difference between you and me. I'd rather be in a relationship with someone who doesn't put me up on a pedestal and worship me. So yeah, I guess it is an even better analogy than I thought it was. 

Certainly you would agree, though, that a man who loves his wife as a person does not love her less than the man who loves his wife as a god?

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If you study the teaching of Jesus in another book other than your own, you will come across a difference in the Character between the two persons. 

Actually the more I read about Jesus teaching in bible the more I found them also in Islam and Ahlulbait teachings.

Quote

The crazier part is, God still loves them and wants them to know his love. 

God loves the repenter/returner to Him. If he keep sinning and does not repent, his hearth becomes dark and dead by time and there would be no light left in him.

From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” (Matthew 4:17)

I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance. (Luke 5:32)

Unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. (Luke 13:3, 5)

---

Truly, Allah loves those who turn unto Him in repentance and loves those who purify themselves” Surah Al-Baqarah, Verse 222

Say: “O Ibadee (My slaves) who have transgressed against themselves (by committing evil deeds and sins)! Despair not of the Mercy of Allah, verily Allah forgives all sins. Truly, He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. Quran (Surah Az-Zumar, Verse 53)

Quote

Honestly, many people feel this way, like the worst sinner and grateful for Christ and it serves as a testimony that it is never too late, you could never do something so bad that God will not love you and accept you if you call on his name. We believe in forgiveness in Christ and eternal life. So I never look down on anyone. I invite prostitutes, gang members, business colleagues to my home and to my church if they want. Jesus is for everyone not just people born into religion.

I agree with you, It is never too late.

Edited by Dhulfikar

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4 hours ago, Journal1 said:

 

"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me."

 

1

Salam,

I do not mean to offend you, but this is one which I've been boiling to ask a Christian since you happen to mention it in this thread.

We believe Jesus A.S. to be a prophet, which God sent down to guide people. Right?

But, you, Christians believe that he is the son of god. If he is to be the son of god, why does he do human things such as eat, drink and sleep? Surely the son of a god wouldn't need to do any of those human things? 

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In my understanding, God does not need to command people to worship him. Jesus is not a dictator, and neither is God.

Worship is reflecting over the affair (pondering over the greatness of God and His creation which leads to His recognition, a prerequisite for true worship) of God. With the humility and awe of God you thank Him and Pray to Him in praise and asking forgiveness.

Edited by Dhulfikar

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1 hour ago, Dhulfikar said:

Actually the more I read about Jesus teaching in bible the more I found them also in Islam and Ahlulbait teachings.

......

Excepting Walking-on-unfrozen-Water, nothing about what Jesus-a.s. said or did in the Gospels that is not also found in the Old Testament.

As for Surah 5:110 as our base ayat of reference,  the OP/Journal1 is the same as the 21:21ers.

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4 hours ago, Journal1 said:

Jesus here is quoting the Old testament commandments.

Yes, and since you believe Jesus to be God, then you believe he issued those commandments, don't you?

4 hours ago, Journal1 said:

Nowhere in the New Testament do you hear Jesus commanding Worship, people just worshipped him, and he accepted it. Must I write all the stories or do you know them?

Since according to the Gospels (especially the synoptic ones), Jesus didn't claim to be God, then of course he didn't command people to worship him. I'm aware of stories of people worshiping him, but there are different levels of worship. It seems unlikely they were worshiping him as God. When Jesus asks his disciples who people say he is, nobody responds by saying that they think he is God:

Matthew 16

13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”

14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist;others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”

15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”

16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

4 hours ago, Journal1 said:

You clearly know Revelations where it is written that "Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the Glory of God the Father."

I want to make a strong point, that even here, it is not implied this forced Worship. This could be that when God is revealed, everyone is just blown away by his glory and willingly just gives him the praise He is worthy of. To be honest, I believe forced worship is not worship at all. It is service but not worship. 

Well, that may be your interpretation, but it is clearly not the only one. What do you do with this:

Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter." He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. (Revelation 19:15)

Sounds pretty harsh to me.

4 hours ago, Journal1 said:

Worship is sacrificial. Worship is sacrifice. Look at the story of Abraham and the Torah, people would bring goats and lambs to sacrifice in worship to God. 

That is why God gives everyone a choice. 

For now, it would seem, in light of the above.

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5 hours ago, Journal1 said:

Hello to you there in Iran

I am writing from Amman, Jordan, Greetings

I must say please do not be misled to believe that the US or Western Entertainment industry represent Christianity. As you can see, they are at enmity with Christ. In the United States they teach God is not real, and are promoting homosexuality in schools to children. The Christians there are the only ones holding up the banner of righteousness in these Western Countries so have mercy on them. I know Muslims and Christians agree these things are not of God.

This is righteous of you to know that God is above parents authority and the like. God bless you sincerely. You use the word "beloved" but what does this word mean? My point is it does mean to you the same as for me? Do you see?

You say you follow of all Gods prophet but what book do you forsake all other books and Prophets for, the Quran - and if I might call it MHMD's book.

Correct me if I am wrong the Quran was revealed to MHMD over a period of 23 years by the angel Gabriel. Retained by memorization for almost 50 years by MHMD, companions, and followers, the current written copy was collected almost 20 years after MHMD's death. It was revealed and written in Arabic, has to be memorized/ recited in Arabic. Inspired in words/ meaning not interpretation. God recited- MHMD memorized- recited it back to scribe. Is this true?

So you say you love all the prophets but you pay attention only to the one Prophet's writings and this book?? 

It seems you follow Mohamad, more than God. You respond, but "O Mohamad is the way to God, he is the final Prophet"

I respond: "You believe he is the final Prophet?- yet he does not align with the truth of the previous prophets, says Islam is with their teachings but in the same breath says their teachings are corrupted? How is this logic?

Regarding Christian women veiling:

What is God more pleased with a woman who puts a hijab on her head. Yet she sits in fancy houses, and she wears the finest clothes and when the children in her city are thirsty, she gives them no water!

Or the woman who has sneakers on her feet, hair pulled back tight in a pony tail and she is on the streets picking up the trash, holding the children, talking to young girls, prostitutes, lost people who have no religion or God, telling them God loves them and inviting them to her home and to her church. She has sweat on her brow because she has walked far, she has fire in her heart because God has called her to this life of serving him.

Do not look at the outside my brother, for we will all be deceived. The hijab is a religious garment, but the living God is not as concerned with our garments as he is with our hearts.

Christian women are not obliged to show their love for God by wearing a head scarf, but rather to show their love for God, by feeling his heart beat for the lost, for the children who have no one to care for them, and for the people that need to hear about him. That is real action, not wearing a garment, who do you make God out to be?

We do not serve God for ourselves, for our own Glory, to say look at me, I serve God, look I am wearing religious clothes, I am righteous. We serve God for Him, for his glory, that people might look at him, and say he is beautiful.

God bless you there in Iran, I truly pray for you. I know you have different battle than me and I pray God brings you into his Kingdom.

Thanks for your response

When did I say all previous religions and teachings are corrupted? Show me in my message. You came up with that out of your mind. What I said is that Islam is the continuation of ALL previous religions. I am really grateful for Islam. Every single thing of Islam makes sense. Do you expect a 7 years old to solve a college problem? Of course not. Because teaching and learning is a gradual process. Religion is a gradual process. A kid goes to primary school then to middle and highschool and finally college. God trained people with Abraham, Noah, Joseph, Moses, Jesus, and all other prophets. After this people were ready to receive THE COMPLETE program of life(=Islam). Just like an 18 years old person who is ready to use his PREVIOUS knowledge in college. Look at your religion, Christianity, and Judaism and other religions. They are kind of similar in some rules. Jewish people have especial kind of meat that they call it Kosher. They have Hijab and circumcision. These are in Christianity as well, but non of them were complete. Islam came and brought the complete program. It doesn't mean that previous books and teachings are corrupted just like you said. It means it CONTAINS all previous teachings as well.

Open your eyes and for the sake of God, look at this without any prejudice. I am Shia, and I love Imam Hussain. There have been a lot of Atheist and Christian writers who wrote about Imam Hussain and they LOVE Imam Hussain just like me. I never question them that you don't love Imam Hussain as much as me. Imam Hussain and AhlulBait are for all people regardless of being Muslim or Christian or Jewish or atheist.

Another thing is that if I were Christian and woman, definitely I would wear Hijab. That is what Jesus ordered me to do. A true LOVER does EVERYTHING that his/her love asks for. Jesus ordered to Hijab, so it's not appropriate to look at Jesus face in the other world and say:" I know that you ordered me to Hijab, but I preferred to have a good heart rather than covering myself". I know that Jesus ordered for BOTH.

Moreover, please bring REASON and RATIONALE to convince me to believe you. You make a fancy picture of a girl with her hair tied in pony tail to prove what exactly? Bring reason. Do research and don't judge Islam. Go do your research about Islam. When you want to learn engineering, you go to college to ask people with engineering knowledge. Now do the same thing. Please don't use YOUR knowledge as a Christian, go and ask a knowledgeable MUSLIM religious scholar. Ayatollah Sistant in Iraq, Ayatollah Javady Amoli in Iran, and so many others are good sources. Be like a real RESEARCHER, travel to Iran, and question Islam in a personal debate with Ayatollah Javady. Don't use emotion and feelings like that girl in pony tail. Be rational, talk with scholars, and look for REASON not emotion.

Edited by AmirAlmuminin Lover

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1 hour ago, Dhulfikar said:

That's true, indeed same God with same message. I don't understand how Christians came to so different conclusions from whole main message of Abrahimic God. 

lf you read my argument with Son-of-Placid last month [Gospels say, Satan says, son-of-god], there l explained that the early Church chose the Words of the Devil as guidance rather than as warning.  Generation after generation after then  blindly followed this dogma.

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4 hours ago, hasanhh said:

lf you read my argument with Son-of-Placid last month [Gospels say, Satan says, son-of-god], there l explained that the early Church chose the Words of the Devil as guidance rather than as warning.  Generation after generation after then  blindly followed this dogma.

Yes, exactly what he said, and he's sticking to it. That "satan says son of god" thing is hard wired MROM.

Still unanswered...When Jesus stood on the mount and said, "When we pray, we should pray like this; Our Father..." Didn't say, "My Father" , who else was part of this Our Father family? Considering the thousands of people heard Jesus say it...it would seem logical "Our Father" was meant to include all believers. 

If you are going to talk Revelation 19, it would be good to read from the start, but even if you don't, you have to at least back up to verse 11, explain who is riding the white horse. If you know that, you must know the riders of the next three horsemen, and Christians around the world would like a definitive answer to that, please don't keep it a secret.

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2 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

Yes, exactly what he said, and he's sticking to it. That "satan says son of god" thing is hard wired MROM. What is mrom?

Still unanswered...When Jesus stood on the mount and said, "When we pray, we should pray like this; Our Father..." Didn't say, "My Father" , who else was part of this Our Father family? Considering the thousands of people heard Jesus say it...it would seem logical "Our Father" was meant to include all believers. Genesis 6:2 and 6:4 where it says the "sons of god". Besides when we asked in church why "father" was used for God, ehYaw, the answer was in that time (and idiom) "father" meant "Creator".

If you are going to talk Revelation 19, it would be good to read from the start, but even if you don't, you have to at least back up to verse 11, explain who is riding the white horse. If you know that, you must know the riders of the next three horsemen, and Christians around the world would like a definitive answer to that, please don't keep it a secret. Clement of Alexandria wrote an imitation of  "Daniel" in 196 C.C.  So l have nothing to say about the SciFi Equivalent of its time. ln addition, Martin Luther said Revelation was an unintelligible writing.

?

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Sorry for the short statements. I guess it's an old analogy now. MROM is masked read only memory. It's a burnt memory chip with initial upload directives that cannot be changed. The reason your computer starts the same way every time. 

This is a study I still have to get back to. My Father has started a group study on Psalms, I have 143 days left.

What I am finding in Genesis is that Mainstream Christianity tends to see every mention of "God" as God Almighty. The Hebrew isn't quite as insistent. satan didn't call them sons of god, the narrator did. I have posted the descriptions of Elohim here before so you can see it certainly is not limited to one ultimate God. There's no reason to believe that God, in all His glory would come down and hang in the sky as a cloud to lead people around for forty years. There's no reason to believe that in one narration God would be called by three different names. The highest name given to God in Hebrew is basically "God of gods". At the time Genesis was written it wasn't unusual to see angels, which could also be referred to as Elohim. People see the Israelites as monotheistic but history says time after time, they turned to polytheistic idolatry when left to themselves. More study, more questions.

Theologians are still debating whether these "sons of god" were spiritual or physical, nor how a mix could happen, or if it did. God saw they needed to be eradicated and did so. There's a good chance they were some interim dimension we can be glad we'll never have to deal with. All sources are speculative. 

Father and creator can be interchangeable at times. Jesus never called God His Father without mentioning, "Who is in Heaven" In the NT satan says, "If you are the son of god..." by which Jesus response was to reject any of satans deals. 

The sci fi of Revelation is actually a mind's eye encryption. It's hard to interpret the meanings of a dream you've had, let alone one you didn't have, especially if it is describing a flash of light before a flashlight was even invented. People are continually trying to associate the book with their times, so the four horses of the apocalypse have been given multiple meanings. Martin Luther saying it's unintelligible, doesn't really help your argument. 

The revelation was given to John. It seems around 96 AD. Some like to move the date up so it predicts the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. This proves scholars have an agenda, but there's nothing that would prove Clement of Alexandria made it up. 

That's probably enough off topic for now. I better do a couple things to do before the snow flies.

 

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On ‎10‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 1:44 PM, حسين said:

Salam,

I do not mean to offend you, but this is one which I've been boiling to ask a Christian since you happen to mention it in this thread.

We believe Jesus A.S. to be a prophet, which God sent down to guide people. Right?

But, you, Christians believe that he is the son of god. If he is to be the son of god, why does he do human things such as eat, drink and sleep? Surely the son of a god wouldn't need to do any of those human things? 

Salam,

No offense taken :)

Right, we believe that in the person of Christ Jesus you see the quintessential expression of who God is. There are many scriptures in the bible that reveal Jesus from Genesis to Revelation. He was born of a virgin, so yes he was human. He had a family, he did eat, drink, and sleep, the bible records he prayed, he fasted, he healed many people, he raised the dead to life, he washed his followers feet 9God washed someone's feet?! God?! this seems more an issue to take up, no?), he died a gruesome death by crucifixion. When he died he said "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" The bible records this. He rose from the dead in bodily form as well and ascended into heaven.

Think critically, the bible records these things. The bible records prophecies of Jesus coming (Jews are still waiting for this promised Messiah, we believe he already came, he is Jesus), his death, resurrection, how he is the Messiah and to praise him, about the Holy Spirit. There is so much but I want to point this out: The bible says that the moment Jesus was on the cross he said, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit" then he said "It is finished".

Why did Jesus say this? Did God really forsake Jesus? Remember Jesus was born from a virgin the only man only since Adam with no earthly Father. Here he is on a cross, he has been spit on, hit, mocked, beat, where the bible says he was beaten so bad he was unrecognizable. He has a crown of thorns on his head because the soldiers put one to mock him. Jesus knew no sin, he was human form, but he lived a perfect life. All the prophets were men who sinned. Jesus never sinned. And here he is dying with so much hatred, coldness, shame, and pain. And in this moment he ask God this...

You may say, "Perfect this point even more than the point that he ate and drank should prove that he is not God. (The eating and drinking point is weak, because God is sovereign and could eat and drink and come into human form, he created the universe and could do anything, of course) The issue is I believe the Muslim faith carries with it the idea that God wouldn't come in human form because he is too great to do something like this? Am I right? You probably believe to great as well to do what Jesus did, and wash his disciples feet? This is what is so mind blowing, and we learn the character of God, through Jesus we see who God is. When I serve I am following Jesus example, the way of God.)

Back to the point, so I study these words. Some scholars say in this moment, because Jesus did not just die like a painful physical death, but he carried the sins of the world on his shoulders, they say in that moment Jesus felt a separation from God that he never did before because of the sin on him. Some say he felt what we felt to be separate from God because of sin. Sin truly does separate us from the Holy God. 

Then he says, "It is finished" when he died the sky darkened, their was an earthquake, the veil in the Jewish temple was torn into two. He was put in a tomb and then he resurrected.

The bible goes on to record, how He who knew no sin, became sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God. A new era hit this earth where now we can have God's life in us, his very Spirit living in us. Jesus gave his life, so we can have his life.

It is so interesting, Honestly if you are caught up about the issue of God eating and drinking, you must go a little deeper, there are more mysteries, wonders, and things of God to be searched and found. The truth is glorious

 

 

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21 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

 

Well, that may be your interpretation, but it is clearly not the only one. What do you do with this:

Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter." He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. (Revelation 19:15)

Sounds pretty harsh to me.

For now, it would seem, in light of the above.

I do not believe here anyone is being forced to worship God. There is surely a place reserved for people who reject God (the Lake of fire). This place is reserved for Satan and all his demons as well. 

As for this scripture, yes Jesus is Mighty. I was actually just reading Matthew how he overturned the tables in the Jewish temples, and how he told the Pharisees "Woe to you...." and how he called them a "brood of vipers", he called them flatly in other verses "Children of the devil" 

Is it interesting to you, the religious leaders, the PHARISEES the very people who wear the religious clothes and study all the laws were the very people Jesus was harsh with. They were the people who rejected him, they missed it. Jesus, was right in front of them, yet they hated him. 

When you think of God, what are you looking for? Are you looking for this image laid out in the Koran? Allah, who hands down the "perfect" way of life as taught in the Koran.

Are you missing him? Are the religious leaders missing him? Could he be right under your nose in the person of Jesus, Christ, but you are missing him?

Have you read in John where Jesus wraps a towel around his waist and washes the disciples feet? Or where after he resurrects he meets his disciples on the shores of Galilee and eats with them. Or when Thomas, who didn't believe in Jesus, after he died, puts his fingers into the holes in Jesus hands where he was crucified? Do you really read the bible, or do you just use it for debate?

I ask you because you seem to quote it like you know it?

 

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21 hours ago, AmirAlmuminin Lover said:

Thanks for your response

When did I say all previous religions and teachings are corrupted? Show me in my message. You came up with that out of your mind. What I said is that Islam is the continuation of ALL previous religions. I am really grateful for Islam. Every single thing of Islam makes sense. Do you expect a 7 years old to solve a college problem? Of course not. Because teaching and learning is a gradual process. Religion is a gradual process. A kid goes to primary school then to middle and highschool and finally college. God trained people with Abraham, Noah, Joseph, Moses, Jesus, and all other prophets. After this people were ready to receive THE COMPLETE program of life(=Islam). Just like an 18 years old person who is ready to use his PREVIOUS knowledge in college. Look at your religion, Christianity, and Judaism and other religions. They are kind of similar in some rules. Jewish people have especial kind of meat that they call it Kosher. They have Hijab and circumcision. These are in Christianity as well, but non of them were complete. Islam came and brought the complete program. It doesn't mean that previous books and teachings are corrupted just like you said. It means it CONTAINS all previous teachings as well.

Open your eyes and for the sake of God, look at this without any prejudice. I am Shia, and I love Imam Hussain. There have been a lot of Atheist and Christian writers who wrote about Imam Hussain and they LOVE Imam Hussain just like me. I never question them that you don't love Imam Hussain as much as me. Imam Hussain and AhlulBait are for all people regardless of being Muslim or Christian or Jewish or atheist.

Another thing is that if I were Christian and woman, definitely I would wear Hijab. That is what Jesus ordered me to do. A true LOVER does EVERYTHING that his/her love asks for. Jesus ordered to Hijab, so it's not appropriate to look at Jesus face in the other world and say:" I know that you ordered me to Hijab, but I preferred to have a good heart rather than covering myself". I know that Jesus ordered for BOTH.

Moreover, please bring REASON and RATIONALE to convince me to believe you. You make a fancy picture of a girl with her hair tied in pony tail to prove what exactly? Bring reason. Do research and don't judge Islam. Go do your research about Islam. When you want to learn engineering, you go to college to ask people with engineering knowledge. Now do the same thing. Please don't use YOUR knowledge as a Christian, go and ask a knowledgeable MUSLIM religious scholar. Ayatollah Sistant in Iraq, Ayatollah Javady Amoli in Iran, and so many others are good sources. Be like a real RESEARCHER, travel to Iran, and question Islam in a personal debate with Ayatollah Javady. Don't use emotion and feelings like that girl in pony tail. Be rational, talk with scholars, and look for REASON not emotion.

Do you not know that Islam contradicts the Christianity and Judaism on almost everything. The religions are FUNDAMENTALY different and superficially similar. By you believing in Islam, you disbelieve inn Christianity. Do you understand this? This was my point. 

I always hear from those of the Islamic faith, "How is God three in one? this is illogical!" I give example of water in the form of Ice, Liquid, and Steam. This is water (H2O) (one molecule) in three forms. Or how you yourself are three in one. You have your body, your spirit, and your soul. I try to offer explanation, but yet it is just too much for some to understand. (These same people will probably have a hard time in math, because things get crazy with numbers in there too lol)

But yet, when I bring up real flat out illogical attribute about the Islamic teachings, no one answers me. 

Islam derives its only basis for truth from whom, Judaism and Christianity, right? You say you believe in all the Prophets, Abraham, the same God, and Mohamad is the last of the prophets. Yet the book you pledge allegiance to is full of contradictions to the Bible (which includes the Torah). I am not talking just big ones like, the Messiah, the character of God, the duties of God, I am talking small ones like names, stories. For example, Jesus is born under a palm tree in the Quran, it was Ishmael who Abraham was willing to sacrifice in the Quran not Isaac (as Jews and Christians know). So here we have this obvious contradiction and break down. And so Islam then says, CHRISTIANITY AND JUDAISM IS CORRUPTED, THEIR BOOK IS CORRUPTED, the Quran is right, forsake all their writings, and follow this one book, the Quran which contradicts everything God revealed about himself prior to Mohamad. This too me is illogical. Not only illogical, but wrong to go against God like this. Jesus taught to never kill, but yet the Prophet Mohamad killed people. Clearly this man was not following the teachings of Jesus, nor Judaism. He started his own religion which you now follow.

Your point about Islam being the final school, or that now we are ready for Islam so that's why God chose to reveal Islam, and it is the complete program of life, like college. 

My response: So you are saying everything was building up to Islam. So Islam was God's plan for humanity to redeem humanity? This does not make sense. Because for since Moses the Jews lived under the law of God, this perfect law and the prophets prophesied about a Messiah who would come from the line of David who would redeem people and establish a new kingdom on earth (SPIRITUAL KINGDOM). Therefore when Jesus came he opened the door to God to Gentiles, (people not Jewish). So now anyone can know God. That is why in Christianity we are black, white, Asian, Mexican, Arab, it is not about a ethnic tribe but God reaching out to the whole world through Jesus. Yet you say God went back to the law? Not only back to the law, but changed it. Made it in Arabic, killed a lot of people to do it. I am so sorry I am just lost in all of this. Do you know Mohamad killed people? Like why would God begin this new program by killing people? You know how Christianity spread? By not Christians "killing", but healing, raising the dead to life, (not just talking, because the bible says the Kingdom of God is not a matter of words, but of power) but also Christians- DYING. Just like they are today for believing in Jesus. I am sorry but it is hard to have this conversation because I do not know where to start when you have a completely different God than me.

I have no idea of what Hussein you talk about. Jesus never ordered women to wear a hijab. I used the pony tail example because Muslims associate hair with beauty and all these things, So I just wanted to get her hair out of the picture, so you would get the picture I was painting, that her life, her work, her - She was more than just her hair or beauty. And if consider wearing a hijab serving the Lord or "work" you do not know what it means to serve him. The Hijab to me is culture, I live in the Middle East so I know culture when I see it. 

And I get my knowledge about Islam from everywhere, school, life, relationships, etc.

What have you just taught me is extremely hard to understand. I only pray God help me. I honestly have never talked with someone from Iran. I am glad I somehow found this chat group.

 

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On ‎10‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 10:40 AM, notme said:

Well that's kind of silly. A Spanish speaking person says "Hey - soos". Does a Spanish speaking Christian worship a different god than an English speaking Christian? 

Other biblical names that are pronounced differently in different languages include Eve, Moses, Abraham, Joseph, Noah, Hannah, Rebecca, Leah, Hajar, Sarah, Joshua, Job, Isaiah, .... need I go on? 

Yes I am aware I have to been churches all over the world and know the concept of different languages lol. I am making the point that within ONE language you have 2 different names for the same person. Thinking about it now, it could just be because Islam spread the language of Arabic with it and wiped out other languages, so having two names for the Jesus is the traces of one of the languages that was wiped out.

I was just in Egypt it was interesting to see how the Christians in Egypt preserved the Original Coptic (Coptic just means Egyptian) language. Because even in the case of being taxed into poverty when Islam came to town, they stuck it out and never became Muslim, so they did not fully pledge allegiance to Arabic. Just interesting...

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On ‎10‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 11:31 AM, Sindbad05 said:

Well. he a.s was a prophet and it is through prophet that we are taught that there is no difference between rich and poor and, it is due to Jesus a.s and other prophets before him and the last Prophet PBUHHP after him that a sane Muslims feels afraid of Poor's curse because the voice of oppressed is near to God. There is no dissimilarity between your claim and mine except that I have a better understanding of Jesus than you who consider him a God but I do not. And, secondly, I believe in whatever Jesus said except lies attributed to him....Do you consider homosexuality an accursed sin or not ? I do because Jesus did also believe that. Do you believe in marriages or out of wedlock relationships like gf and bf type of ? I believe in marriage which Jesus believed. So, we Muslims have more common ideologies than the Christians themselves. 

Secondly, I will surely kill for Jesus, the reason of this is that "If anyone kills an innocent life, Jesus like other prophets allows two options for the deceased's relatives either to be paid with indemnity or blood money or to that kill the oppressor". I would stand with the deceased's relatives and thus plead for kill and if I get to make that oppressor to gallows, I would surely do it. This is justice. 

Homosexuality is definitely a sin. Sex before marriage is a sin. Jesus said even when a man looks at a woman in lust he has committed a sin in his heart. He truly raised the standard. Before it was "Love your neighbor as yourself" then Jesus said, "Love your neighbor as I have loved you" (That is a greater love). 

If you as a Muslim think for any reason it is okay to kill, do not say you know Jesus. Do not try to say you follow him, or associate yourself with him. In the same breath, you say that "we Muslims have more common ideologies than the Christians themselves." Please my friend. Do you know Jesus said, It is not what goes into a person's mouth that makes him unclean, but what comes out his mouth, because what comes out of the heart, lust murder, pride, jealousies - these are things that make a man unclean? So you not eating pig does not make you following his teachings. Even you washing yourself before you pray. There is a story in Matthew where the Pharisees (religious leaders of the day) confront Jesus about how he and his disciples did not wash their hands - and Jesus goes bad on them. Like he goes off on them. He talks about first cleaning the inside, and how they do all these religious things but are hypocrites, and do not really care about people, and how they themselves are unclean, so clean, maybe all washed up with water, but their hearts at filthy. Jesus went in, you have to read it for yourself.

And I guess that what is the Quran teaches, but Jesus taught us that Justice belongs to God and he will avenge us. Of course we have the courts of law, but when those do not work we never repay evil with evil but we give a blessing instead because this is what he taught us. He said to love our enemies, and bless those who persecute us and spitefully use us. 

I know a brother in Christ, who his twin brother was murdered. His identical twin brother, Imagine how close they were, they came into the world together. And his brother was murdered innocently. And he wanted to kill the people who killed his brother. But yet he prayed for the murderers of  his brother, he forgave them, and prayed for them that they might know God, and for God to forgive them. He only could do this though the power of God. This man is a good man who helps a lot of people today and serves as an example to many of us.

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On ‎10‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 11:57 AM, father said:

tell me what was the religion of abraham, issac, jacob, ismael? were they jews or christians? why were they blessed whom did they worship?

The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Their God is my God. Ishmael is the son born of the slave woman Hagar not Abrahams wife Sarah. Ishmael is not the son of the promise, but Isaac is. Jacob's name was changed to Israel in the bible by God, these are the ancestors of the Jewish people. The twelve tribes of Israel are Jacobs sons. They were of course Jews. "Christians" was a name given to the first followers of Jesus in Antioch (the book of Acts in the bible talks all about it). The Judeo-Christian faith completely aligns with one another. We have the same books. The only difference is Jews today do not have the new testament. We Christians have the Old (Judaism) and the New testament or New "Covenant" (means "Promise"). Jewish people are waiting still for the Messiah that is prophesied about in the old testament, we believe he already came, this was Christ Jesus. 

 

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On ‎10‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 3:44 PM, Dhulfikar said:

That's true, indeed same God with same message. I don't understand how Christians came to so different conclusions from whole main message of Abrahimic God. 

Can we please at least get to the point that Islam does not have same God as Jews and Christians? Can we all agree on that?

The God of the Mohamadean faith is completely different in Character. Why would God call his own people "infidels" like he does in the Quran and change his Word completely? God does not change. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

Also like Muslims seem to always be at enmity with Christians and Jews. Like just historically, with Israel, I seen a man here with a Swastika on his hand, here in the Middle East because he hates Jews. Just last November you had 7 people killed in Egypt at a church because they were in a Church. Yes, I know most Muslims are moderate and peaceful, but just there is his feeling of like Muslims being against Jews and Christians. The fact that in the Hub of Islam where all the Muslims pray toward. That very place, Jews and Christians are not allowed to go there? But yet you say we have the same God? You say we have the same God to justify your religion that started in 560 AD. You use the truth of God's truth for your own ends to support this religion. And then disrespect it at the same time.

And do not say you respect God's Word or truth when you say it is corrupted. You call God a liar when you call his Word corrupted. The Quran contradicts the bible in many aspects, the Torah in many aspects (if you want to just focus on Judaism). Not just in big aspects but small ones like stories, words, days, times, names.  The smallest letter to change is big to me, because this is God's Word, let alone, names and wholes stories, and people.

I just want to get to my Original question can we all agree we do not have the same God. God is truth, he is whole, in him there is no contradiction, because where you have contradiction, you have break down. Where you have break down, you have, chaos. God is a God of order not Chaos. So let us get to the basic premise, that we do not have the same God, Islam is the God of Mohamad.

Whether I believe this religion is right, I know the name Ishmael whom you say is the son of the promise (also ancestor of Arab people). The name in Hebrew means "God hears". God hears the cry of the person crying out to him. He hears the prayers of when they talk to him. So whether I believe your religion is right, I believe God hears your prayers.

I am so tired, I do not know if I said too much. I hope I was not offensive. God bless and good night  

 

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1 hour ago, Journal1 said:

I do not believe here anyone is being forced to worship God. There is surely a place reserved for people who reject God (the Lake of fire). This place is reserved for Satan and all his demons as well. 

Well, if you kill everyone who doesn't worship you, then I think it's a little bit hard to argue there is compete freedom of choice. And as you point out, ultimately anyone that doesn't believe in Jesus is going to Hell. I don't have a problem with that, but that does indicate a certain level of compulsion. I'm sure if the government told you to do something or else you would be executed, then you would say they were compelling you.

1 hour ago, Journal1 said:

As for this scripture, yes Jesus is Mighty. I was actually just reading Matthew how he overturned the tables in the Jewish temples, and how he told the Pharisees "Woe to you...." and how he called them a "brood of vipers", he called them flatly in other verses "Children of the devil" 

Is it interesting to you, the religious leaders, the PHARISEES the very people who wear the religious clothes and study all the laws were the very people Jesus was harsh with. They were the people who rejected him, they missed it. Jesus, was right in front of them, yet they hated him. 

Wasn't the point that they were changing money in the temple? As far as I remember, he wasn't attacking every Pharisee that he came across.

As for the laws that you seem so keen on denigrating, allow me to remind you once again that according to your beliefs Jesus authored those laws, so clearly he must have felt they were important.

1 hour ago, Journal1 said:

When you think of God, what are you looking for? Are you looking for this image laid out in the Koran? Allah, who hands down the "perfect" way of life as taught in the Koran.

Are you missing him? Are the religious leaders missing him? Could he be right under your nose in the person of Jesus, Christ, but you are missing him?

No, the concept of God Muslims have is not to be found in a man, or in a confusing doctrine of three divine persons  in one divine being. I doubt this is anyone's idea of God who doesn't feel compelled to accept the authority of the Bible on this matter.

1 hour ago, Journal1 said:

Have you read in John where Jesus wraps a towel around his waist and washes the disciples feet? Or where after he resurrects he meets his disciples on the shores of Galilee and eats with them. Or when Thomas, who didn't believe in Jesus, after he died, puts his fingers into the holes in Jesus hands where he was crucified? Do you really read the bible, or do you just use it for debate?

I ask you because you seem to quote it like you know it?

Yes, I've read these passages, but I don't get your point. As a Muslim, I don't disagree that Jesus did great things, and performed mighty miracles. It doesn't prove to me that he was God.

I read the Bible for many reasons, the least of which is to 'debate', as I have neither the time nor the interest to go looking to debate Christians or convert them. But obviously, if approached by a Christian, I'm not going to shy away from quoting the Bible in my discussion with them. On the other hand, almost everything I know about Christianity, I've learnt from Christians. I enjoy listening to their perspective, without feeling any need to try to debate with them or convert them. Sadly, I don't get the feeling that you are here to learn, or that your primary source of information about Islam has been Muslims.

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