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Just now, Ron_Burgundy said:

Yes, we have many narrated who have done it. For instance Mawaiya. So if you think our narrators could be wrong can you provide the names you trust, and why do you trust them?

you are saying that based on the narrations you have. which is my initial question. that why do you trust those narrations? and this has nothing to do with muawiya jbtw. 

i dont know. but i dont ask this question about the sunni literature because there are ahadith which tell scientific facts, future events, and things which authenticate those ahadith from an outward source. so, it is reasonable to assume that since those narrations are true, their narrators are probably reliable. and so are those whom these narrators call reliable. and by falling dominoes, the entire sunni rijal system gets some sort of validity. i can give examples of the science and future events mentioned in ahadith in sunni literature.

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1 minute ago, just a muslim said:

i dont know. but i dont ask this question about the sunni literature because there are ahadith which tell scientific facts, future events, and things which authenticate those ahadith from an outward source. so, it is reasonable to assume that since those narrations are true, their narrators are probably reliable. and so are those whom these narrators call reliable. and by falling dominoes, the entire sunni rijal system gets some sort of validity. i can give examples of the science and future events mentioned in ahadith in sunni literature.

First of all you need to understand that there are many hadiths which we both agree upon. 

 

So let me ask you a question, do you think the following hadith is legit?

Quote

Hadith 1:395

Narrated 'Umar (bin Al-Khattab):

My Lord agreed with me in three things:

1. I said,"O Allah's Apostle, I wish we took the station of Abraham as our praying place (for some of our prayers). So came the Divine Inspiration: And take you (people) the station of Abraham as a place of prayer (for some of your prayers e.g. two Rakat of Tawaf of Ka'ba)". (2.125)

2. And as regards the (verse of) the veiling of the women, I said, 'O Allah's Apostle! I wish you ordered your wives to cover themselves from the men because good and bad ones talk to them.' So the verse of the veiling of the women was revealed.

3. Once the wives of the Prophet made a united front against the Prophet and I said to them, 'It may be if he (the Prophet) divorced you, (all) that his Lord (Allah) will give him instead of you wives better than you.' So this verse (the same as I had said) was revealed." (66.5).

 

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2 minutes ago, Ron_Burgundy said:

First of all you need to understand that there are many hadiths which we both agree upon. 

 

So let me ask you a question, do you think the following hadith is legit?

 

yes i understand that. im talking about the differences. 

depends on what the scholars have said about it. but i remember it to graded authentic.

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8 minutes ago, just a muslim said:

you are saying that based on the narrations you have. which is my initial question. that why do you trust those narrations? and this has nothing to do with muawiya jbtw. 

i dont know. but i dont ask this question about the sunni literature because there are ahadith which tell scientific facts, future events, and things which authenticate those ahadith from an outward source. so, it is reasonable to assume that since those narrations are true, their narrators are probably reliable. and so are those whom these narrators call reliable. and by falling dominoes, the entire sunni rijal system gets some sort of validity. i can give examples of the science and future events mentioned in ahadith in sunni literature.

Defend these as well

"Sahih" Bukhari

Volume 6, Book 60, Number 368:

Narrated Ibn Abi Mulaika:

The two righteous persons were about to be ruined. They were Abu Bakr and 'Umar who raised their voices in the presence of the Prophet when a mission from Bani Tamim came to him. One of the two recommended Al-Aqra' bin Habeas, the brother of Bani Mujashi (to be their governor) while the other recommended somebody else. (Nafi', the sub-narrator said, I do not remember his name). Abu Bakr said to Umar, "You wanted nothing but to oppose me!" 'Umar said, "I did not intend to oppose you." Their voices grew loud in that argument, so Allah revealed:

'O you who believe! Raise not your voices above the voice of the Prophet.' (49.2) Ibn Az-Zubair said, "Since the revelation of this Verse, 'Umar used to speak in such a low tone that the Prophet had to ask him to repeat his statements." But Ibn Az-Zubair did not mention the same about his (maternal) grandfather (i.e. Abu Bakr).

 

 

 

 

Sahih al Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 4, Hadith Number 148: book of Ablutions (Wudu')

Narrated 'A'isha:

The wives of the Prophet used to go to Al-Manasi, a vast open place (near Baqia at Medina) to answer the call of nature at night. 'Umar used to say to the Prophet "Let your wives be veiled," but Allah's Apostle did not do so. One night Sauda bint Zam'a the wife of the Prophet went out at 'Isha' time and she was a tall lady. 'Umar addressed her and said, "I have recognized you, O Sauda." He said so, as he desired eagerly that the verses of Al-Hijab (the observing of veils by the Muslim women) may be revealed. So Allah revealed the verses of "Al-Hijab" (A complete body cover excluding the eyes).

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1 minute ago, just a muslim said:

yes i understand that. im talking about the differences. 

depends on what the scholars have said about it. but i remember it to graded authentic.

So now you are saying me that Umar was advising Allah like Allah didn't know what to do. Astagfirullah.

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1 minute ago, just a muslim said:

yes i understand that. im talking about the differences. 

depends on what the scholars have said about it. but i remember it to graded authentic.

Tell me did Umar know more than Allah and Prophet? For god sake he used to pray idols man if he was that wise he wouldn't have worshiped his own creation. 

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3 minutes ago, Ron_Burgundy said:

Defend these as well

"Sahih" Bukhari

Volume 6, Book 60, Number 368:

Narrated Ibn Abi Mulaika:

The two righteous persons were about to be ruined. They were Abu Bakr and 'Umar who raised their voices in the presence of the Prophet when a mission from Bani Tamim came to him. One of the two recommended Al-Aqra' bin Habeas, the brother of Bani Mujashi (to be their governor) while the other recommended somebody else. (Nafi', the sub-narrator said, I do not remember his name). Abu Bakr said to Umar, "You wanted nothing but to oppose me!" 'Umar said, "I did not intend to oppose you." Their voices grew loud in that argument, so Allah revealed:

'O you who believe! Raise not your voices above the voice of the Prophet.' (49.2) Ibn Az-Zubair said, "Since the revelation of this Verse, 'Umar used to speak in such a low tone that the Prophet had to ask him to repeat his statements." But Ibn Az-Zubair did not mention the same about his (maternal) grandfather (i.e. Abu Bakr).

 

 

 

 

Sahih al Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 4, Hadith Number 148: book of Ablutions (Wudu')

Narrated 'A'isha:

The wives of the Prophet used to go to Al-Manasi, a vast open place (near Baqia at Medina) to answer the call of nature at night. 'Umar used to say to the Prophet "Let your wives be veiled," but Allah's Apostle did not do so. One night Sauda bint Zam'a the wife of the Prophet went out at 'Isha' time and she was a tall lady. 'Umar addressed her and said, "I have recognized you, O Sauda." He said so, as he desired eagerly that the verses of Al-Hijab (the observing of veils by the Muslim women) may be revealed. So Allah revealed the verses of "Al-Hijab" (A complete body cover excluding the eyes).

would you mind opening a new thread for these? i dont want the thread to deviate. and trust me. this is not me trying to run away. or you could send these to me on private message. and i will respond to these inshaAllah. 

2 minutes ago, Ron_Burgundy said:

So now you are saying me that Umar was advising Allah like Allah didn't know what to do. Astagfirullah.

sigh. that is not what i said ya akhi. 

1 minute ago, Ron_Burgundy said:

Tell me did Umar know more than Allah and Prophet? For god sake he used to pray idols man if he was that wise he wouldn't have worshiped his own creation. 

again. that is not what i said. and again, i wouldnt mind at all to answer these. but just not on this thread. it may seem like i am trying to avoid it, but wallahi im not. 

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Just now, just a muslim said:

would you mind opening a new thread for these? i dont want the thread to deviate. and trust me. this is not me trying to run away. or you could send these to me on private message. and i will respond to these inshaAllah. 

sigh. that is not what i said ya akhi. 

again. that is not what i said. and again, i wouldnt mind at all to answer these. but just not on this thread. it may seem like i am trying to avoid it, but wallahi im not. 

Brother i don't play defensive where you get to ask all the questions. :D Sine we all know Quran is not enough so thats why I want to discuss other sources. 

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8 minutes ago, Ron_Burgundy said:

Brother i don't play defensive where you get to ask all the questions. :D Sine we all know Quran is not enough so thats why I want to discuss other sources. 

sigh. okay. lets assume for the sake of this discussion that the ahadith you mentioned are not authentic. on second thoughts, let us dismiss the entire sunni literature which the shias dont agree with. happy? now i have nothing to defend. so you cant "attack" and will have to simply "play defensive". unless you are willing to admit that you yourself are not sure about shiism. 

 you do not understand. i am very much open to the idea of shiism, given it can be proven to be the truth. so far, it hasnt.

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3 minutes ago, just a muslim said:

sigh. okay. lets assume for the sake of this discussion that the ahadith you mentioned are not authentic. on second thoughts, let us dismiss the entire sunni literature which the shias dont agree with. happy? now i have nothing to defend. so you cant "attack" and will have to simply "play defensive". unless you are willing to admit that you yourself are not sure about shiism. 

 you do not understand. i am very much open to the idea of shiism, given it can be proven to be the truth. so far, it hasnt.

Well now if you think any of our sahih hadith is wrong you just need to prove it. And I will agree with you. For me its not about hadiths. Its about whats right and wrong. Its not like if you gonna quote me something and say I took it from Kafi I will agree to it. I will do my research and will accept or decline, depends on my research. 

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Just now, Ron_Burgundy said:

Well now if you think any of our sahih hadith is wrong you just need to prove it. And I will agree with you. For me its not about hadiths. Its about whats right and wrong. Its not like if you gonna quote me something and say I took it from Kafi I will agree to it. I will do my research and will accept or decline, depends on my research. 

no. that is a logical trap, and no. i am not accusing you of anything. you are not aware of it either. 

you first have to prove that a hadith is sahih. and when i say prove it, i mean prove that the prophet pbuh or the imams actually said those words. i dont know how you can prove that. even a sahih sanad doesnt prove it. it has to be checked against the quran. but thing is, even then it doesnt guarantee that the words were spoken by an infallible.

for me to prove a sahih hadith wrong, you first have to prove a hadith sahih. 

how do you judge what is right and wrong?

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Just now, Ron_Burgundy said:

As i said i do my research compare it against quran etc. etc.

and even if it matches the quran, how do you know it is sahih? how do you know the infallible said it? and a narrator didnt just fabricate it? 

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1 minute ago, just a muslim said:

and even if it matches the quran, how do you know it is sahih? how do you know the infallible said it? and a narrator didnt just fabricate it? 

If it does match with quran it means that there is no harm accepting it. isn't it?

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2 minutes ago, Ron_Burgundy said:

If it does match with quran it means that there is no harm accepting it. isn't it?

true. but that would mean that i dont have to look at ahadith. i should just go about my life and accept anything from everyone as long as it matches the quran and that would have the same significance as the hadith. 

we still cant prove that the hadith was said by the infallible

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Just now, just a muslim said:

true. but that would mean that i dont have to look at ahadith. i should just go about my life and accept anything from everyone as long as it matches the quran and that would have the same significance as the hadith. 

we still cant prove that the hadith was said by the infallible

Well you can't prove anything from history. There is always be what if. can you prove it that these are not the words of Imam?

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5 minutes ago, Ron_Burgundy said:

Well you can't prove anything from history. There is always be what if. can you prove it that these are not the words of Imam?

yes. there will always be what if. which is why we need a reason to trust it. that the sahih hadith is actually sahih. that the narrators are actually reliable. 

if we cant prove something to be false, does that mean it becomes true?

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37 minutes ago, just a muslim said:

 

you first have to prove that a hadith is sahih. and when i say prove it, i mean prove that the prophet pbuh or the imams actually said those words. i dont know how you can prove that. even a sahih sanad doesnt prove it. it has to be checked against the quran. but thing is, even then it doesnt guarantee that the words were spoken by an infallible.

 

We cannot prove that a narration-whether mentioned in shia or sunni books- are 100% the exact words of the Prophet-s- or Imams(a).

But when the evidence shows that most likely they are the words of infallible (when they are not against Quran, aql and ethics and narrated by probably reliable people), then your common sense tells you to believe it.

P.S: Can you prove that Quran 100% is God's words? (I believe it but I cannot 100% prove it).

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2 minutes ago, shadow_of_light said:

We cannot prove that a narration-whether mentioned in shia or sunni books- are 100% the exact words of the Prophet-s- or Imams(a).

But when the evidence shows that most likely they are the words of infallible (when they are not against Quran, aql and ethics and narrated by probably reliable people), then your common sense tells you to believe it.

P.S: Can you prove that Quran 100% is God's words? (I believe it but I cannot 100% prove it).

i cant even prove the quran is 1 percent God's word. that is our belief. but i can prove that the quran is 100 % as it was recited/said by the prophet pbuh. 

if we cant be sure about any particular hadith 100%, then how can hadith be a source of religion? 

Edited by just a muslim

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56 minutes ago, just a muslim said:

if we cant prove something to be false, does that mean it becomes true?

As long as its not again islam and quran. I think its our best option. But where we know people who went against Islam (prophets and Imams) i doubt their sayings. 

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21 minutes ago, shadow_of_light said:

Because it is the best option available.

most likely, right? Okay. Lets take that. What makes the shia hadith more likely than the sunni hadith? I mean, for example, take the example of the iman of abu talib. It was recently discussed on the forum and it is clear that ahadith in sunni literature say he is in hell, while that in shia literature say his iman was great. One of them has to be an absolute fabrication. How do you know which one?

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11 minutes ago, Ron_Burgundy said:

As long as its not again islam and quran. I think its our best option. But where we know people who went against Islam (prophets and Imams) i doubt their sayings. 

see this is circular. How do you KNOW certain people went against islam? From hadith?

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10 hours ago, just a muslim said:

why do you trust what the narrator is saying? because he is thiqa/honest/truthful/reliable/trustworthy? who told you that? your books of rijal? why do you trust those? why trust whatever is written in them? why trust the authors of those books? for all you know, and please hold tight to your seats and try not to lose it as i dont mean any disrespect or offence, it could be the work of the devil, men who had no good intention and just wanted to create division among the ummah? how do you know it wasnt that? why do you trust them?

P.S. this is not some form of hidden attempt to "prove" shiism wrong and give dawah to sunnism. no. i am just trying to understand why you guys believe what you believe. 

Can we agree that the exact same question would be applicable to you or any sunni? Why do you trust Sahih Bukhari or Sahih Muslim? Because someone told you too?

Bukhari was born 200 years after the Prophet. How can you be 100% sure he didn't make up everything in his book? A stone running away with Prophet Musa's clothes could just be his perverse thinking. No?

1 hour ago, just a muslim said:

i cant even prove the quran is 1 percent God's word. that is our belief. but i can prove that the quran is 100 % as it was recited/said by the prophet pbuh

if we cant be sure about any particular hadith 100%, then how can hadith be a source of religion? 

By all means please do. While you are at it, please reference all the huruf it was revealed under and how Caliph Uthman was diviniely guided to consolidate 7 into 1.

Edited by shiaman14

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4 hours ago, just a muslim said:

why are you comparing the milk of two different animals? if you want to, compare it as it says in the hadith. of women. for boys and girls. do a study/research. if the weight turns out to be twice, or approximately twice, then you have a case. otherwise, none.

Ok if this is unacceptable to you then get milk bottle of any animal's milk which you like and divide it into two pots. In one pot, reduce the level of milk to add egg yolk that's pure protein and then check weight of both samples. Milk is same but only one is rich in protein and fats,  you will get higher Weight of egg yolk containing milk.

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