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salam all. im back with one of my questions.

since sunnis and shias both agree on the quran, our main difference is due to our different hadith literature. hence, most of my questions revolve around hadith literature. and i know there have been questions asked previously about why should one choose sunni/shia hadith over the other, but i ask it again because i ask from a different perspective. and if any old member finds that i am repeating some old post, please link me to that post so i can benefit from it.

okay so, before you read on, please try to be objective. look at it like this. if you believe you are on the truth, then your arguments should always be superior to me, and you should be able to prove hujjah upon me no matter which sect i belong to, and that hujjah should be from my own sources. or at the very least, from sources which we both agree on. 

so, shias have ahadith. going back to the infallibles. and even though it wont matter, but let's not call them infallibles for now. FOR NOW. i repeat, FOR NOW. dont take this to your heart and try to move past it okay? okay. so, the ahadith go back to the imams. and there is a chain for every hadith. correct? so, my question is: why do you trust what the narrator is saying? because he is thiqa/honest/truthful/reliable/trustworthy? who told you that? your books of rijal? why do you trust those? why trust whatever is written in them? why trust the authors of those books? for all you know, and please hold tight to your seats and try not to lose it as i dont mean any disrespect or offence, it could be the work of the devil, men who had no good intention and just wanted to create division among the ummah? how do you know it wasnt that? why do you trust them?

P.S. this is not some form of hidden attempt to "prove" shiism wrong and give dawah to sunnism. no. i am just trying to understand why you guys believe what you believe. 

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2 hours ago, just a muslim said:

salam all. im back with one of my questions.

since sunnis and shias both agree on the quran, our main difference is due to our different hadith literature. hence, most of my questions revolve around hadith literature. and i know there have been questions asked previously about why should one choose sunni/shia hadith over the other, but i ask it again because i ask from a different perspective. and if any old member finds that i am repeating some old post, please link me to that post so i can benefit from it.

okay so, before you read on, please try to be objective. look at it like this. if you believe you are on the truth, then your arguments should always be superior to me, and you should be able to prove hujjah upon me no matter which sect i belong to, and that hujjah should be from my own sources. or at the very least, from sources which we both agree on. 

so, shias have ahadith. going back to the infallibles. and even though it wont matter, but let's not call them infallibles for now. FOR NOW. i repeat, FOR NOW. dont take this to your heart and try to move past it okay? okay. so, the ahadith go back to the imams. and there is a chain for every hadith. correct? so, my question is: why do you trust what the narrator is saying? because he is thiqa/honest/truthful/reliable/trustworthy? who told you that? your books of rijal? why do you trust those? why trust whatever is written in them? why trust the authors of those books? for all you know, and please hold tight to your seats and try not to lose it as i dont mean any disrespect or offence, it could be the work of the devil, men who had no good intention and just wanted to create division among the ummah? how do you know it wasnt that? why do you trust them?

P.S. this is not some form of hidden attempt to "prove" shiism wrong and give dawah to sunnism. no. i am just trying to understand why you guys believe what you believe. 

First of all, there are two forces in this world, those that are wrong doers and those that are good doers. It is true that there were various persons in the world like of Salman Rushdi who wrote wrong books and tried to pervert people. However, Allah AWJ also has promised that He AWJ would not cease to guide. Therefore, he sends people whom he teaches through his assistants that nothing would last for long in this world except his name and those who are associated with Him. This belief lead those people to collect words of God and also with it are it;s conditions that not only you have to collect it but you have to propagate it so that it may not become extinct, this is the reason we have Quran in our hands. 

If there remains no good human trustworthy except Imam e Zamana a.s and if Allah still do not want to finish the occultation of Imam e Zamana a.s, then Allah AWJ would send his angels in the shape of humans like Harut and Marut who will collect trustworthy books and preserve teachings. 

This is the promise of God bro. 

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15 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

First of all, there are two forces in this world, those that are wrong doers and those that are good doers. It is true that there were various persons in the world like of Salman Rushdi who wrote wrong books and tried to pervert people. However, Allah AWJ also has promised that He AWJ would not cease to guide. Therefore, he sends people whom he teaches through his assistants that nothing would last for long in this world except his name and those who are associated with Him. This belief lead those people to collect words of God and also with it are it;s conditions that not only you have to collect it but you have to propagate it so that it may not become extinct, this is the reason we have Quran in our hands. 

If there remains no good human trustworthy except Imam e Zamana a.s and if Allah still do not want to finish the occultation of Imam e Zamana a.s, then Allah AWJ would send his angels in the shape of humans like Harut and Marut who will collect trustworthy books and preserve teachings. 

This is the promise of God bro. 

i would like to believe that you are a sensible person. but what you wrote has nothing to do with my question. i ask again, why do you trust the people who narrated the narrations? just give me a one or two line answer if possible. no background buildup or anything or the sort. 

Edited by just a muslim

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2 minutes ago, just a muslim said:

i would like to believe that you are a sensible person. but what you wrote has nothing to do with my question. i ask again, why do you trust the people who narrated the narrations? just give me a one or two line answer if possible. no background buildup or anything or the sort. 

I believe them because of truth which they utter and that satisfies the rules of nature.

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Just now, just a muslim said:

could you give me an example?

Yes, such as Prophet PBUHHP said: "If you do not lie, you will abandon sinning". 

If a person stop lying, he would have to tell truth if he did a wrong deed and thus, have to followed by embarrassment which is followed by being infamous and which will earn him a bad name. Thus, if a person from heart accept the hadith of Prophet, he will quit sinning. Based on the psychological nature of humans. 

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A second example, Imam Ali a.s said: "If you have to know what kind of person you are meeting, give him respect". If he considers himself above you, he is proud and boastful and if he gives you respect back, he is humble. 

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3 hours ago, just a muslim said:

since sunnis and shias both agree on the quran, our main difference is due to our different hadith literature. 

Surah 3: Verse 7

Surah 53: Verses 1-5

Surah 1 Verse 7

Surah 5: 55-56

Surah 5: 67

Qur'an is the Same,Difference  Is in the   interpretation (ta'wíl) 

We believe in the Mute Book and the Speaking Book. Which leads to  Hadith Thaqalayn and Ghadir Khum announcement

The Prophet held up the hand of 'Ali and said: 

"For whoever I am his Leader (mawla), 'Ali is his Leader (mawla)."

*****

 

6. The Concept of "al-Qur'an an-Natiq"

"Al-Qur'an an-natiq" means the "speaking Qur'an." This is a famous title given to the Shí'a Imams to describe their proximity to the Qur'an; they are the custodians of the Qur'anic message and its interpretation; they are the embodiment of the Qur'anic values and its ideals. This concept is based on the various sayings of the Prophet in which the Qur'an and the Ahlul Bayt are shown to never separate from one another.

The famous hadíth of thaqalayn says:

"I am leaving two precious things behind among you: the Book of Allah and my Ahlul Bayt. The two shall not separate from one another until they come to me at the fountain of Kawthar (on the Day of Resurrection)."13

In another hadíth, Umm Salama, the wife of the Prophet, quotes him as follows:

"'Ali is with the Qur'an and the Qur'an is with 'Ali; they shall never separate from one another until they reach to me at the Fountain (on the day of Resurrection)."14

Abu Sa'íd al-Khudari reports that one day we were sitting waiting for the Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.) to come out. He came to us while we saw that the strap of his shoe was broken; he gave it to 'Ali to repair. Then he said,

"One of you will wage war for the interpretation (ta'wíl) of the Qur'an just as I waged war for its revelation (tanzíl)."

Abu Bakr said, "Am I the one?" The Prophet said, "No." Then 'Umar said, "Am I the one?" The Prophet said, "No, but the one who is repairing the shoe."15

Imam 'Ali himself said, "Ask me before you lose me, for by the One who split the grain and created the soul, if you ask me as to which verse was revealed at night time or at day time, whether it is of Meccan or Medinite [era], during journey (of the Prophet) or while in Medina, whether it is abrogator or abrogated, whether it is clear or allegorical, and whether you need its interpretation or context of its revelation-I shall inform you about it."16

https://www.al-islam.org/shiism-imamate-and-wilayat-sayyid-muhammad-rizvi/knowledge-ahlul-bayt

*****

So, for your base premise to be true, We would have to agree on the Interpretation. And our interpretation of the above mentioned verses ( Concepts) will serve as a criterion for these 

ALL Muslims Agree on the Historical Events, like  Ghadir Khum, Saqifa, Fadak, Battle of Jamal, Battle of Siffin, Karbala are recorded in History.

Issue of succession

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235053412-refutation/?tab=comments#comment-3089274

So there is no doubt in Authenticity of the above mentioned Events.

Truth is Very Clear.

So, Fundamental of Faith ( Fundamental of Faith ( Tawheed, Justice, Prophethood, Imamate, Day of Judgement) are very clear.

If there is no difference in above, Hadith  for Islamic Acts ( Fiqh( Jurisprudence are a secondary issue.)

Layman

 

Edited by S.M.H.A.

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42 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

Yes, such as Prophet PBUHHP said: "If you do not lie, you will abandon sinning". 

If a person stop lying, he would have to tell truth if he did a wrong deed and thus, have to followed by embarrassment which is followed by being infamous and which will earn him a bad name. Thus, if a person from heart accept the hadith of Prophet, he will quit sinning. Based on the psychological nature of humans. 

 

40 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

A second example, Imam Ali a.s said: "If you have to know what kind of person you are meeting, give him respect". If he considers himself above you, he is proud and boastful and if he gives you respect back, he is humble. 

 

39 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

Both these narrations are proved by nature and hence are true narrations. 

 

37 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

not exactly. i mean, these narrations are talking about generally nice stuff. one could find similar stuff in non-islamic culture'religions. so, that does not mean that the narrators did not invent these words themselves, they could have said these words themselves and then attributed them to an infallible, atleast the possibility of this remains in the eyes of one who is critically looking at these to search for the truth i.e. me. do you understand? so the question remains, why do you trust the narrators or their authenticators? 

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9 minutes ago, S.M.H.A. said:

Surah 3: Verse 7

Surah 53: Verses 1-5

Surah 1 Verse 7

Surah 5: 55-56

Surah 5: 67

Qur'an is the Same,Difference  Is in the   interpretation (ta'wíl) 

We believe in the Mute Book and the Speaking Book. Which leads to  Hadith Thaqalayn and 

The Prophet held up the hand of 'Ali and said: 

"For whoever I am his Leader (mawla), 'Ali is his Leader (mawla)."

*****

 

6. The Concept of "al-Qur'an an-Natiq"

"Al-Qur'an an-natiq" means the "speaking Qur'an." This is a famous title given to the Shí'a Imams to describe their proximity to the Qur'an; they are the custodians of the Qur'anic message and its interpretation; they are the embodiment of the Qur'anic values and its ideals. This concept is based on the various sayings of the Prophet in which the Qur'an and the Ahlul Bayt are shown to never separate from one another.

The famous hadíth of thaqalayn says:

"I am leaving two precious things behind among you: the Book of Allah and my Ahlul Bayt. The two shall not separate from one another until they come to me at the fountain of Kawthar (on the Day of Resurrection)."13

In another hadíth, Umm Salama, the wife of the Prophet, quotes him as follows:

"'Ali is with the Qur'an and the Qur'an is with 'Ali; they shall never separate from one another until they reach to me at the Fountain (on the day of Resurrection)."14

Abu Sa'íd al-Khudari reports that one day we were sitting waiting for the Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.) to come out. He came to us while we saw that the strap of his shoe was broken; he gave it to 'Ali to repair. Then he said,

"One of you will wage war for the interpretation (ta'wíl) of the Qur'an just as I waged war for its revelation (tanzíl)."

Abu Bakr said, "Am I the one?" The Prophet said, "No." Then 'Umar said, "Am I the one?" The Prophet said, "No, but the one who is repairing the shoe."15

Imam 'Ali himself said, "Ask me before you lose me, for by the One who split the grain and created the soul, if you ask me as to which verse was revealed at night time or at day time, whether it is of Meccan or Medinite [era], during journey (of the Prophet) or while in Medina, whether it is abrogator or abrogated, whether it is clear or allegorical, and whether you need its interpretation or context of its revelation-I shall inform you about it."16

https://www.al-islam.org/shiism-imamate-and-wilayat-sayyid-muhammad-rizvi/knowledge-ahlul-bayt

*****

So, for your base premise to be true, We would have to agree on the Interpretation. And our interpretation of the above mentioned verses ( Concepts) will serve as a criterion for these 

Historical Events, like  Ghadir Khum, Saqifa, Fadak, Battle of Jamal, Battle of Siffin, Karbala are recorded in History.

So there is no doubt in Authenticity of the above mentioned Events.

Truth is Very Clear.

So, Fundamental of Faith ( Fundamental of Faith ( Tawheed, Justice, Prophethood, Imamate, Day of Judgement) are very clear.

If there is no difference in above, Hadith  for Islamic Acts ( Fiqh( Jurisprudence are a secondary issue.)

Layman

 

if you are aware enough to say that interpretations are different, not just ahadith, then i would like to ask you some other things, which technically come even before the interpretations. you mind if i PM you? dont want to divert the thread.

Edited by just a muslim

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7 minutes ago, just a muslim said:

if you are aware enough to say that interpretations are different, not just ahadith, then i would like to ask you some other things, which technically come even before the interpretations. you mind if i PM you? dont want to divert the thread.

No. You can continue with your topic 

Edited by S.M.H.A.

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1 hour ago, Sindbad05 said:

why do you trust the people who narrated the narrations?

Shia books of Hadith (Ahaadith), narrations

 
Hadith (Ahaadith) are narrations of Prophet Mohammed.
 
Shia don't rely on Sunni Hadith books (Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim etc), Shia have several reasons as to why Sunni hadith books are rejected. Sunnis, have six major authentic (Sihaa Sitta) hadith books and several others to their list which are secondary on level in their collection.
 
For a Sunni any doubt on any hadith from those six books are an act of blasphemy. That is the reason Sunni prefix the word 'Sahih' (Authentic) to those books, among those six book (Siha Sitta); Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim are two ultra-correct books next only to Holy Quran or on par.
 
Shia are of opinion that since hadith are narrated by a chain of narrators who are fallible people bound to make mistakes no matter even if un-intentional, therefore, no hadith could be called 100% authentic (Sahih), thus, Shia don't prefix the names of books of hadith with word 'Sahih' (Authentic), because no matter how small but there are chances of error.
 
One major difference between Shia collection and Sunni collection are Sunni judge the person as right or wrong, if he/she is right; what ever he/she said is authenic. Shia rather check whether his/her hadith is right or wrong, since all people are fallible except Prophet Mohammed (saw), Fatima Zahra (as) and 12 Imams (as).
 
Shia have another set of books which are authentic but never ever 100% authentic since the chain of narration are taken from fallible people. There are four major books of Shia Hadith which are least in error, they are called 'Kutub al Arba' (Four books).
 
Four Major Shia Hadith book (Kutub al Arba) are:
 
1) Al Kafi (The Sufficient) by Mohammed bin Yaqub Kulaini, it has 15176 narrations/ Ahaadith.
 
2) Man La Yahdruhu Al Faqih (I am my own Jurist) by Shaikh Saduq Mohammed bin Ali, it has 9044 narrations/ Ahaadith
 
3) Tahdiib Al Ahkaam (The Refinement of Laws) by Shaikh Abu Ja'far Tusi, it has 13590 narrations/ Ahaadith
 
4) Al Istibsaar (Foresight) by Shaikh Abu Ja'far Tusi, it has 5511 narrations/ Ahaadith
 
Other Shia Hadith books are:
 
5) Bihar Al Anwaar (Ocean of Luminescence)
 
6) Wasaail Ush Shia (Details for Shia)
 
7) Haqq Al Yaqin (Reality of Certainty)
 
8) Ain al Hayaat (Essence of Life)
 
9) Kitab Sulaym bin Qays (Book of Sulaym bin Qays)
 
10) Sahifa Sajjadiya (Psalms of Sajjad/ 4th Imam), it is a prayer book.
 
11) Nahjul Balagha (Peak of Eloquence), compiled by Sayyed Radi, the book is collections of sermons, letters and quotations of 1st Imam Ali bin Abu Talib (as)

It is a Shia Islamic belief based on several Hadith found in above mentioned books, that there are several other books which are always under possession of current Imam, these books are never in possessions of people. These books include hand written Qur'an by Imam Ali Murtada, Jafr, Jabr and Mushaf Fatima (Codex of Fatima). Apart from these books current Imam also possesses original Suhuf Ibrahim (Scrolls of Abraham), Tauraat (Torah), Zabuur (Psalms), Injeel (Gospel) and original revealed books of every prophet of past times.

Oh Allah! Peace and Salutation be upon Mohammed and House-hold of Mohammed.

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For Shia scholars Shia and Sunni hadith has no difference and with the same methods of checking authenticity are checked. If a hadith is known authentic it is used but if not, it is left weather it is recorded by Shia or Sunni scholars. Shia scholars do not reject Sunni hadith books completely. But say every individual hadith (from Shia or Sunni) should be investigated for authenticity.

Shia scholars use authentic hadith from Sunni hadith book in their works and books. For example the hadith from Sahih Muslim and other Sunni hadith books are used in Imam Khomeini books. And many other Shia scholars.

Please note there are different methods of determining the health of a hadith and this makes some conflict in scholars about considering a hadith authentic or not. This conflict exist in Shia scholars. for example a Shia scholar may consider a hadith and other not authentic due to different methods of determining the health of a hadith and this may lead to different fatwa an a subject.

The main fundamental difference of Shia and Sunni is conflict in Imamat which is a very big conflict and this conflict makes big different in every aspect of Islam including hadith collections, Madhab, prayers, beliefs and everything else. There are tens of thousands of hadith that accepting them as authentic in fact means accepting Imamat as a pillar of Islam and in a way are related to Imamat. So those kind of hadith are totally censored in main Sunni hadith books but still many of them can be found in many Sunni hadith books.

Sunni scholars are different about recording hadith related to Imamat and it depends on the relation of that scholar to King of his time and pressures of King of times on scholars. In fact Imamat is opposite of Kings. if a Kings accept Imamat in fact is accepting himself is not qualified for governing Islamic society so no King will never accept Imamat (if accept he is not a King anymore) and this causes Kings always controlled scholars and hadith books to do not write anything related to Imamat.

In Shia view a good hadith narrator for Sunni Kings and hadith recorders is who be silent about Imamat and Caliphate and support power of Sunni Caliphs and Kings even if that narrator is from Kharijates. instead if a narrator oppose Sunni Caliphs and Kings he should not be used as narrator even if he is Imam Ali a.s. or Imam Sadiq a.s. unless their hadith not talking about Caliphate.

After Malik the golden age of hadith started and Sunni collections were written in this age.

This is some of views of Shia scholars regarding 6 main Sunni hadith collections:

1- Sahih Bukhari (year 194-256): the Sunni hadith recorders have had many exaggerations about this book while this book narrates hadith from Kharijates and Nasibi people. But from Imam Sadiq a.s. and next Imams who Bukhari was living at their time even one hadith is not narrated. His ancestors were Zoroastrian and first one of their family who converted to Islam was his 3th father Mughayrah. When Bukhari was child his father died and left a wealth that he used for travels for collecting hadith. Firstly he was respected by scholars of Nishabur but later due to his serious conflicts with Muhammad Ibn Yahya Nishaburi (the Grand Hadith Sheykh of Nishabur) he was forced to immigrate from his city.

2- Sahih Muslim (year 204-261): although this book has advantages that Bukhari book does not have but is in lower rank and popularity.

3- Sahih Abu Dawood: its ahadith are mostly about Sunni Fiqh.

4- Sahih Abu Isa Muhammad Ibn Isa Tarmazi: he was the first one who categories ahadith in 3 category of Sahih, Hasan, Zaif instead of 2 category.

5- Sahih Ahmad Ibn Shoaib Nesai.

The last 4 are called Sunan also because the terms considered for Sahih hadith by first two are not considered in these 4.

6- Sahih Muhammad Ibn Yazid Ibn Abdullan Ibn Majeh Ghazwini: some consider Sunan Darami higher than this book and consider it as 6th Sahih.

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49 minutes ago, just a muslim said:

 

 

 

not exactly. i mean, these narrations are talking about generally nice stuff. one could find similar stuff in non-islamic culture'religions. so, that does not mean that the narrators did not invent these words themselves, they could have said these words themselves and then attributed them to an infallible, atleast the possibility of this remains in the eyes of one who is critically looking at these to search for the truth i.e. me. do you understand? so the question remains, why do you trust the narrators or their authenticators? 

These are just two examples to make you aware that veracity of a statement itself is witness for or against the speaker. There are various traditions narrated by people who were not known to be their statements on such example is of narrations in "Nehjul Balagha" in which people alleged Sheikh Razi that he wrote them and not the Imam but many scholars said that the writings style or rhetoric  and intellectual apporach of what is in Nehjul Balagha and Sheikh Razi do not match and thus, the quote belongs to Imam Ali a.s.

For example:- I will tell you a quote which belong to Imam Ali a.s but a common man or even the highest intellectual companion could not have said except Imam Ali a.s. It is narrated that Imam Ali a.s was told that two women have given birth to a girl and a boy respectively, but someone stole the son and placed girl in the cradle and now both women are contending that son belong to them for want of more share out of property. Imam Ali a.s said: "Ask both mothers for their milk in equal scale and then weigh them". Later on Imam Ali a.s was told that weight of one milk is half of that of another, Imam Ali a.s said that the women whose milk is less in weight, the daughter belong to her, it is because of this that Allah AWJ has fixed half inheritance for daughter than son. 

Now, tell me could any person except a high caliber gynecologist knew that ? Not possible.... 

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Why would any unbiased individual, who embraced Islam and accepted Allah and his messenger (saw) and believed in his holy book, why would this individual decide to choose the books of one group over the other?

Obviously the matter cannot be left to desires and emotions, rather it should be based on evidence and proof, since Allah most high criticized those who only follow desires and those who follow guesswork when He سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى said:

{Say, “Indeed, the guidance of Allah is the [only] guidance.” If you were to follow their desires after what has come to you of knowledge, you would have against Allah no protector or helper.} [2:120]

{So follow not [personal] inclination, lest you not be just.} [4:135]

{But those who wrong follow their [own] desires without knowledge. Then who can guide one whom Allah has sent astray? And for them there are no helpers.} [30:29]

As for those who follow assumptions and guesswork, Allah has criticized them saying:

{They follow not except assumption, and they are not but falsifying.} [10:66]

{They follow not except assumption and what [their] souls desire, and there has already come to them from their Lord guidance.} [53:23]

{And they have thereof no knowledge. They follow not except assumption, and indeed, assumption avails not against the truth at all.} [53:28]

In summary, one should not follow a path just because it appeals to him if it contradicts clear evidence and truth, and one must not base his beliefs on hearsay and baseless assumptions unless he can back it with proof.

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Secondly, there can only be two kinds of people according to the classification of intelligence namely Cunning and Wise..

The Cunning will always try to claim even the quotes said by the others such as it was said only for Ali that Ali is the gate of knowledge and then few cunning said that such and such is door and such and such is window while it is known that there are no doors and windows to the city wall.

The Wise will not attribute his statements to infallibles, because he knows that what I have said might have pitfalls because I am not infallible, so, he would not make quotes in names of Ahlebait and add it to books for if it is proved otherwise then Allah knows it and people will know it too that he made mistake whether deliberately or unintentionally and those quotes would not be considered as of those great persons. 

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Early Scholars' View on Sahih Hadith

The definition of Sahih Hadith by early scholars is different with it by recent ones. From early scholars' point of view, a Sahih Hadith is a narration its being issued from Imams (a) would be proved from any possible way. They simply classified Hadith to acceptable and unacceptable. The new classification of Hadith to Sahih, Hasan, Muwaththaq and Da'if was proposed at the time of al-'Allama al-Hilli or his prophesier al-Sayyid b. Tawus. The first three kinds was counted as acceptable before early scholars.

Classification of Sahih Hadith from Shi'a Point of View

Sahih's degrees are as follows:

  1. A'la: all the narrations of the chain of Hadith are authentic weather we know the fact or we accept it from two impartial witnesses.
  2. Awsat: all the narrations or one of them are authentic just based on a report of one impartial witness.
  3. Adna: this authenticity is based on Ijtihad assumption.

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5 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

These are just two examples to make you aware that veracity of a statement itself is witness for or against the speaker. There are various traditions narrated by people who were not known to be their statements on such example is of narrations in "Nehjul Balagha" in which people alleged Sheikh Razi that he wrote them and not the Imam but many scholars said that the writings style or rhetoric  and intellectual apporach of what is in Nehjul Balagha and Sheikh Razi do not match and thus, the quote belongs to Imam Ali a.s.

you do not understand my question. everywhere you are claiming knowledge or trust, such as "many scholars said...". my question is, why do you trust those scholars/narrators. the veracity may be a witness for or agaisnt a speaker. but what you mentioned in the above examples are just nice things which anyone could have come up with.

7 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

For example:- I will tell you a quote which belong to Imam Ali a.s but a common man or even the highest intellectual companion could not have said except Imam Ali a.s. It is narrated that Imam Ali a.s was told that two women have given birth to a girl and a boy respectively, but someone stole the son and placed girl in the cradle and now both women are contending that son belong to them for want of more share out of property. Imam Ali a.s said: "Ask both mothers for their milk in equal scale and then weigh them". Later on Imam Ali a.s was told that weight of one milk is half of that of another, Imam Ali a.s said that the women whose milk is less in weight, the daughter belong to her, it is because of this that Allah AWJ has fixed half inheritance for daughter than son. 

Now, tell me could any person except a high caliber gynecologist knew that ? Not possible.... 

i dont understand this hadith. two women gave birth. one to a boy and the other to a girl. someone mixed the children up. and now both women claimed that the son was hers. Ali ra asked the women to give their milk in equal quantities. the woman whose milk was denser, meaning more in weight, the boy was hers? how does that make sense? and what does gynecology have to do with that?

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1 minute ago, just a muslim said:

i dont understand this hadith. two women gave birth. one to a boy and the other to a girl. someone mixed the children up. and now both women claimed that the son was hers. Ali ra asked the women to give their milk in equal quantities. the woman whose milk was denser, meaning more in weight, the boy was hers? how does that make sense? and what does gynecology have to do with that?

What you did not understand in this ? I am telling you that what Imams tell us through their quotes, a normal narrator does not have such approach as the above example....I do not know why did not you understand the simple example above. which shows that even if you were asked this question, you would have been unable to tell it without refering to a doctor but Imam Ali a.s did it himself. 

Do you think that there is doubt in this quote to be of Ali a.s ? 

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4 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

What you did not understand in this ? I am telling you that what Imams tell us through their quotes, a normal narrator does not have such approach as the above example....I do not know why did not you understand the simple example above. which shows that even if you were asked this question, you would have been unable to tell it without refering to a doctor but Imam Ali a.s did it himself. 

Do you think that there is doubt in this quote to be of Ali a.s ? 

confirm this first. did i understand the hadith correctly? the milk which was heavier belonged to the mother of the boy? and not just heavier, but twice as heavy as the other.

Edited by just a muslim

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