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I have heard from some Sunni friends and speakers that according to them Abu Hanifa the Sunni Imam was a disciple of Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq (as). So it makes a person think why not take your Islam from the master instead of the disciple? A teacher is complete while a student is not. 

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I heard that Abu Hanifa only studied under Imam Ja'far for 2 years.

I believe if they followed Imam Ja'far, it would have foundationally conflicted with their rejection of Imam Ali as the successor of the Prophet. Rather i believe they follow Imam Ja'far through a difference school, a school which accepts the order of the established 4 caliphs.

Back in the day when sects would have been created, it was all about who was a follower of Imam Ali and who was a follower of the state. We have to remember that for over 5 or 6 decades, some say 100 years even, Imam Ali was cursed on the minbar every Friday. This time period is equal to (if not longer than) today's Palestine issue. And in those days, there was no social media. It was like a mini dark age which really made it hard for people to follow word of mouth hadeeths such as Ghadir, Thaqalayn, etc.

So therefore, the status quo would have been followed and but little of Ahlulbayt's true teachings.

Please bear in mind that this comment is just my own personal opinion which is founded on hearsay from multiple lectures from multiple respected scholars and some book sources over my years. Feel free to correct or disagree with me.

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37 minutes ago, Darth Vader said:

I have heard from some Sunni friends and speakers that according to them Abu Hanifa the Sunni Imam was a disciple of Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq (as). So it makes a person think why not take your Islam from the master instead of the disciple? A teacher is complete while a student is not. 

the main reason is that sunnis believe the shia perception of imam jafar is based on fabrications, while the sunni view is that imam jafar was a righteous member of ahlul bayt, who didnt claim any imamate or things like that.

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12 minutes ago, just a muslim said:

the main reason is that sunnis believe the shia perception of imam jafar is based on fabrications, while the sunni view is that imam jafar was a righteous member of ahlul bayt, who didnt claim any imamate or things like that.

And my supposition is that followers of Abu Hanifa at that time did not go with Imam Ja'far directly because Imam Ja'far was a propagator of the message of the Prophet through Imam Ali rather than Caliphs 1,2 and 3.

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2 minutes ago, ServantOfTheOne said:

And my supposition is that followers of Abu Hanifa at that time did not go with Imam Ja'far directly because Imam Ja'far was a propagator of the message of the Prophet through Imam Ali rather than Caliphs 1,2 and 3.

Imam Jafar a.s. was a grandson of Abu Bakr r.a. as well from mothers side.

However the teachings of islam as transmitted by the Ahl al-Bayt were preserved by him a.s.

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You seem to be implying that Imam Ja'far transmitted true teachings from Abu Bakr, which is a fair statement to make. However, you have also implied that the fact that he is a grandchild of Abu Bakr is proof of this; correct me if I misunderstood.

However, if this is truly what meant, then it is preposterous. Lineage is not proof of what your principles and teachings will be.

In my opinion, lineage should only be considered proof when it is used a decree by Allah such as in the Quran (progeny of Prophet Ibrahim) and also in Authentic Mutawatir Prophetic narrations such as Hadeeth Thaqalayn.

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2 minutes ago, ServantOfTheOne said:

You seem to be implying that Imam Ja'far transmitted true teachings from Abu Bakr, which is a fair statement to make. However, you have also implied that the fact that he is a grandchild of Abu Bakr is proof of this; correct me if I misunderstood.

However, if this is truly what meant, then it is preposterous. Lineage is not proof of what your principles and teachings will be.

In my opinion, lineage should only be considered proof when it is used a decree by Allah such as in the Quran (progeny of Prophet Ibrahim) and also in Authentic Mutawatir Prophetic narrations such as Hadeeth Thaqalayn.

imam-jafar-sadiq-geneology1.png

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39 minutes ago, just a muslim said:

the main reason is that sunnis believe the shia perception of imam jafar is based on fabrications, while the sunni view is that imam jafar was a righteous member of ahlul bayt, who didnt claim any imamate or things like that.

Oh? I wish to read about that. Can you help and provide reference? ^^

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14 minutes ago, Darth Vader said:

That there is even more reason to follow his teachings imo.

Him being a righteous member of the aale Muhammad a.s. is sufficient.  It however irritates me that scholars of the aale Muhammad a.s. do not have prominent positions in the scholarly world of early islam which ofcourse had political reasons.

Abu Hanifa and other three imams of sunnism do not have that same connection with Muhammad s.a.w.a.s. as imam Jafar as-Sadiq a.s. had. So why not prefer imam Jafar a.s. above the other four?

Edited by Faruk

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1 minute ago, Faruk said:

Him being a righteous member of the aale Muhammad a.s. is sufficient.  It however irritates me that scholars of the aale Muhammad a.s. do not have prominent positions in the scholarly world of early islam which ofcourse had political reasons.

Abu Hanifa and other three imams of sunnism do not have that same connection with Muhammad s.a.w.a.s. as imam Jafar as-Sadiq a.s. had. So why not prefer imam Jafar a.s. above the other three?

i would think that probably because not much is narrated from imam jafar a.s. via authentic chains? authentic atleast according to sunni books of rijal. that would be my first guess. 

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Salam @Kazemi,

I am not disputing that Imam Ja'far is Abu Bakr's grandchild.

I am disputing that we cannot use Imam Ja'far's lineage to Abu Bakr as proof of where he got his best Islamic teachings. Since Imam Ja'far's lineage is a pre-determined lineage which receives the covenant of God, all Islamic teachings he gained would be through Imam Baqir > Imam Zain Al-Abideen > Imam Husayn > Imam Hasan > Imam Ali and Sayeda Fatima > Rasool Allah.

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6 minutes ago, just a muslim said:

i would think that probably because not much is narrated from imam jafar a.s. via authentic chains? authentic atleast according to sunni books of rijal. that would be my first guess. 

I believe he a.s. had more knowledge than the Four Sunni Fuqaha combined together. What went wrong?

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2 minutes ago, ServantOfTheOne said:

Salam @Kazemi,

I am not disputing that Imam Ja'far is Abu Bakr's grandchild.

I am disputing that we cannot use Imam Ja'far's lineage to Abu Bakr as proof of where he got his best Islamic teachings. Since Imam Ja'far's lineage is a pre-determined lineage which receives the covenant of God, all Islamic teachings he gained would be through Imam Baqir > Imam Zain Al-Abideen > Imam Husayn > Imam Hasan > Imam Ali and Sayeda Fatima > Rasool Allah.

I mentioned this because Imam Jafar a.s. was put down as opposed to caliph 1, 2 and four while having a blood-connection with caliph 1.

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8 minutes ago, Faruk said:

What went wrong?

Islamic mini Dark age I believe. Imam Ja'far was oppressed and poisoned. Its not like his teachings were promoted by the Caliph of the time. They were busy with politics which was why he had more of a chance to teach than his predecessors and his progeny. But ultimately, I think his works were eventually targeted by successive tyrants.

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45 minutes ago, Darth Vader said:

Oh? I wish to read about that. Can you help and provide reference? ^^

can you read+understand arabic? 

16 minutes ago, Faruk said:

I believe he a.s. had more knowledge than the Four Sunni Fuqaha combined together. What went wrong?

i dont know. jbtw, if you are trying to give me dawah to shiism by hinting that it was all because of some sunni conspiracy, it wont work. not because i am not open to shiism, because i only seek the truth, wherever it may be, but because i have certain issues with ahadith and/or historical reports. i would be more than willing to discuss them or tell you which way of dawah would work on me, but in a separate thread, in order to not divert the OP.

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3 hours ago, just a muslim said:

can you read+understand arabic?

If you give me the book and author names I might find a translation. The most prominent islamic books are translated. However, if the said reference is by some new age scholar that will be difficult. So please try to mention authentic and orthodox books. Surely since you believe it then it must be in a well known book with a translation available. ^^

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Perhaps the most interesting of all his pupils was Abu Hanifa who gave public lectures at Kufa that attracted much attention. In giving decisions, he claimed the right to exercise the privilege of deduction (Qiyas) and of using his own judgement (Ra’y) to supplement the traditions and for this departure he was severely criticized by the scholars in Makka and Madina.

His decisions were on the point of law of Islam, however he steadfastly refused to enter the service of the Government as judge. Thus it was as a literary or academic jurist that he was able to carry on his work in Kufa under both the Ummayads and the Abbasids.

It is probable that he strongly sympathized with the Alawids and resented the way in which they had been set aside. Masudi mentions in his history that once he had sent 10,000 Dinars to Zaid Ibn ‘Ali to help him against the Ummayads.

One is surprised to observe that these two contemporary scholars were able to carry on teaching in their respective cities, Abu Hanifa in Kufa and Imam Ja’far Sadiq (as) in Madina. The two men were on friendly terms with each other and often Abu Hanifa accepted the advice of his teacher Imam Ja’far Sadiq (as)

Ibn Khalikan relates a story about an anecdote that the Imam Ja’far Sadiq (as) had with his contemporary jurist of Kufa. The Imam asked, “ What would you say is the proper fine for one who breaks the front molars (Rubaiyat) of a deer”? Abu Hanifa answered, O’son of the Apostle of God I do not know the answer.

To this the Imam replied, “Can you then pretend to learning and scholarship when you do not know that a deer has no front molars, but only the incisors" (Thanaya).

On another occasion, Abu Hanifa remarked that if the Imam did not teach three things he would be able to accept him.

1. Good is from God and evil is from the deeds of men, “ whereas I say that men have no choice but both good and evil are from God.

2. In the final judgement the devil suffers in the fire,” whereas I say that the fire will not burn him, in so much as the same material will not injure itself (the Devil being from fire) “

3. it is impossible to see God in this world or the next, whereas I say that anyone who has existence may be seen, if not in this world, then in the next”. At this point Shaikh Buhlul who was one of Imam’s companions, but pretended to be a simple minded person, picked up a clod of earth and hit Abu Hanifa on the head, declaring as he made the hasty exit, that all three points are refuted.

Abu Hanifa made a complaint about him to the caliph who called Buhlul before him and asked him, why did you throw the clod of earth at Abu Hanifa. He answered, “I did not throw it”. Abu Hanifa protested, “you did throw it”.
But Buhlul replied, “you yourself have maintained that evil is from God that men have no choice, so why do you blame me? And you have also said that the same material will not injure itself. The devil is from fire and fire of hell would not hurt him. Accordingly you are from dust of the earth, tell me how it could injure you? You have also claimed that you can see God as a proof of his existence. Show me the pain you are complaining about that exists in your head ?"

Abu Hanifa had no answer to that and he eventually agreed to what Imam Ja’far Sadiq (as) taught about these things.

Nevertheless Abu Hanifa was highly respected by those friends of Ahlul Bayt for they heartily endorsed a remark made by Abu Hanifa concerning Mansur and all such oppressors whether of the Banu Umayya or Banu Abbas. Abu Hanifa eloquently declared that if such men would build a Masjid and command him to the simple task of counting the bricks, he would not do it, “for they are dissolute (Fasiq) and the dissolute are not worthy of the authority of leadership (Majlisi,Tarikhul Aiemma).

Ultimately Mansur heard this remark and cast Abu Hanifa into prison where he remained until his death. Abu Hanifa’s remarks were based on the Verse in the Qur’an (Surah II,V 118) where God said to Abraham,” I am about to make thee an Imam to mankind”, and Abraham asked, “of my offspring also”, but God answered, “My covenant embraceth not the idolaters”.

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In the book The Prohibition Of Recording the Hadith by Sayyid Ali al-Shahristaniy p.350-351

Abu-Na`im, in his book of Hilyat al-Awliya', has narrated that Ibn Shabramah and Abu-Hanifah, once, visited Ja`far ibn Muhammad who asked Ibn Abi-Layla, "Who is this one accompanying you?"

"This is a man who enjoys discernment and skillfulness in the religious affairs," answered he.

Al-Sadiq said, "Perhaps, this is the one who analogizes the affairs of the religion by his own opinions!"

"Yes, he is," answered he.

Al-Sadiq said, "Nu`man: Have you analogized your head, too?"

"How can I analogize my head?" asked Abu-Hanifah.

Al-Sadiq said, "I see that you can master nothing at all. Do you know what the word whose first part is infidelity and whose last part is faith is?"

"You then tell me about that word whose first part is infidelity and whose last part is faith," replied Abu-Hanifah.

Al-Sadiq said, "When a servant (of Almighty Allah) says, 'There is no god...' he will then declare infidelity; but when he continues, saying, 'but Allah', he will then declared faithfulness."

Al-Sadiq then turned to Abu-Hanifah and said, "Listen, Nu`man! My father has reported to me from my grandfather that the Messenger of Allah said, 'The first to analogize (i.e. compare) in the affairs of the religion was Iblis (Satan) who said, 'He said: What hindered you so that you did not prostrate when I commanded you? He said: I am better than he: Thou hast created me of fire, while him Thou didst create of dust. 7:12' Hence, one who analogizes any of the affairs of the religion by his own opinion will be joined to Iblis on the Resurrection Day, since the latter has been more skilled in the field of analogy!'"

Al-Sadiq then asked Abu-Hanifah, "Which one of these two sins are more serious; murder or commitment of adultery?"

"It is murder," answered Abu-Hanifah.

Al-Sadiq said, "However, Almighty Allah has accepted two witnesses only for murder but has not accepted less that four witnesses for the commitment of adultery!"

Al-Sadiq then added, "Which one of these two is more important; the prayer or the fasting?"

"It is the prayer," answered Abu-Hanifah.

Al-Sadiq said, "Why is it then that a woman must settle the fasting that she misses due to menstruation while it is not obligatory upon her to settle the prayers that she misses due to the same?"

Al-Sadiq then added, "Woe to you! How do you then depend upon analogy? Fear Allah and never compare the religious laws out of your own opinions."(3)

1- Al-Borujerdiy: Jami` Ahadith al-Shi`ah; 1:184 as quoted from al-Kulayniy: al-Kafi.

2- Ibn Hazm: al-Ihkam fi Usul al-Ahkam 8:513 S. 38.

3- Abu-Na'im:Hilyat al-Awiliya' #: 196-197

http://www.maaref-foundation.com/english/l...g_hadith/28.htm

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5 hours ago, Darth Vader said:

If you give me the book and author names I might find a translation. The most prominent islamic books are translated. However, if the said reference is by some new age scholar that will be difficult. So please try to mention authentic and orthodox books. Surely since you believe it then it must be in a well known book with a translation available. ^^

there is no translation as far as i am aware. the book is siyar a'laam an-nubala', by ad-dhahabi. and the reason i asked for your arabic understanding is because the reference is to the arabic book. even if you find a translation, it might prove to be difficult to locate that in the translation.

also, just to avoid you any disappointment, i made claims about sunni views. not my own views or what i find the truth to be. 

also, which part were you interested to know about? that the sunnis believe imam jafar was righteous? or that he didnt claim imamate?

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4 hours ago, Ron_Burgundy said:

In the book The Prohibition Of Recording the Hadith by Sayyid Ali al-Shahristaniy p.350-351

Abu-Na`im, in his book of Hilyat al-Awliya', has narrated that Ibn Shabramah and Abu-Hanifah, once, visited Ja`far ibn Muhammad who asked Ibn Abi-Layla, "Who is this one accompanying you?"

"This is a man who enjoys discernment and skillfulness in the religious affairs," answered he.

Al-Sadiq said, "Perhaps, this is the one who analogizes the affairs of the religion by his own opinions!"

"Yes, he is," answered he.

Al-Sadiq said, "Nu`man: Have you analogized your head, too?"

"How can I analogize my head?" asked Abu-Hanifah.

Al-Sadiq said, "I see that you can master nothing at all. Do you know what the word whose first part is infidelity and whose last part is faith is?"

"You then tell me about that word whose first part is infidelity and whose last part is faith," replied Abu-Hanifah.

Al-Sadiq said, "When a servant (of Almighty Allah) says, 'There is no god...' he will then declare infidelity; but when he continues, saying, 'but Allah', he will then declared faithfulness."

Al-Sadiq then turned to Abu-Hanifah and said, "Listen, Nu`man! My father has reported to me from my grandfather that the Messenger of Allah said, 'The first to analogize (i.e. compare) in the affairs of the religion was Iblis (Satan) who said, 'He said: What hindered you so that you did not prostrate when I commanded you? He said: I am better than he: Thou hast created me of fire, while him Thou didst create of dust. 7:12' Hence, one who analogizes any of the affairs of the religion by his own opinion will be joined to Iblis on the Resurrection Day, since the latter has been more skilled in the field of analogy!'"

Al-Sadiq then asked Abu-Hanifah, "Which one of these two sins are more serious; murder or commitment of adultery?"

"It is murder," answered Abu-Hanifah.

Al-Sadiq said, "However, Almighty Allah has accepted two witnesses only for murder but has not accepted less that four witnesses for the commitment of adultery!"

Al-Sadiq then added, "Which one of these two is more important; the prayer or the fasting?"

"It is the prayer," answered Abu-Hanifah.

Al-Sadiq said, "Why is it then that a woman must settle the fasting that she misses due to menstruation while it is not obligatory upon her to settle the prayers that she misses due to the same?"

Al-Sadiq then added, "Woe to you! How do you then depend upon analogy? Fear Allah and never compare the religious laws out of your own opinions."(3)

1- Al-Borujerdiy: Jami` Ahadith al-Shi`ah; 1:184 as quoted from al-Kulayniy: al-Kafi.

2- Ibn Hazm: al-Ihkam fi Usul al-Ahkam 8:513 S. 38.

3- Abu-Na'im:Hilyat al-Awiliya' #: 196-197

http://www.maaref-foundation.com/english/l...g_hadith/28.htm

i pretty much agree with this. not entirely, but pretty much. i myself use the same argument against qiyas whenever i talk to hanafis.

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