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Mishael

How would Arabia be if Islam never existed?

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3 minutes ago, LeftCoastMom said:

But the Mongols went home of their own accord and no one knows why. Now the best guess is the weather, which would have happened in any case.

No actually they fought amongst each other and divided the massive mongol empire into four different empires the Mongols themselves as a united empire only existed for less then 200 years and slowly other empires replaced the the mongols by overthrowing them so they didn't go home or their own accord the people they conquered just overthrew them.

Edited by Mishael

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To be honest, we will never know what would happen, but what we would have lost. I encourage you to find the answers to your question by reading the golden age philosophers of Islamic thinking, as well as their common contributions to sciences and social, political, and academical thinking. Basically they created the science we are discussing now, History (because before it was just a bunch of transmitted narrations commonly exaggerated and lacking any credibility). They also introduced the concept of Doubt in the academic process, which is the basis of modern science. As for philosophy, they recovered and developed Greek philosophy (especially Andalusian philosophers).

It is not possible to understand the greatness, beauty and gifts of the Islamic culture to the whole world without studying the people who built it. And gratitude, as always, be to Allah.

Edited by Bakir

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9 hours ago, LeftCoastMom said:

AFAIK, no one knows why their advance stalled in Hungary, but internal politics in a group that large is inevitable.

But I'm no historian.

A combination of inept leadership and espionage.

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On October 11, 2017 at 10:30 PM, Guest Account Ali said:

Look, I am trying really hard to not say that christians equal christianity. But honestly, read a history book on your people's past and understand that a decent chunk of you guys would forcibly marry your daughters until the split of state and church came. Were there genuine marriages? Yes. But from the perspective of Muslims there were also an alarmingly competitive number of christian women being forcibly married against their will, to which christian bishops sanctified at that time. Yes I am aware that christian beliefs change over time, but don't bury your head in the sand over your past not so great history. Christian Bishops at that time used to honestly believe that women did not even have souls and were just baby-making machines. Most famous is Martin Luther who seriously saw no point in the existence of women, aside from maybe Bibi Maryam (AS) and women and their ability to be pregnant. In retrospect, It really is not surprising why the split of state and church came in Europe. Also, I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt that Christians have a right to say what they think is representative and unrepresentative in their history, what is unorthodox to do and what is not, what their outlooks are on their past christian scholars and their beliefs and how do they fit into the modern theology of christianity. Understand one thing, every perceivably negative thing you can accuse muslims of and their history points RIGHT BACK AT YOU AND YOUR HISTORY. 

Also, I can probably imagine the OP is going to post something about the modern state of the muslim world. And yes, the modern muslim world has many issues. A genuine chunk of blame goes to muslims, but a similar genuine chunk goes towards the political meddling of western powers in the region. Muslims should own up to their mistakes in the region and fix them, that is the fixing of issues should not go against precepts of Islam. But in order to not keep making more issues in the region muslims should evict western political hegemony from the region and truly be independent. Heck, imagine if countries in the Middle East threatened to dissolve borders, that sure would put gas prices in the west into a tizzy. Going from that topic, after world war 1, who PARTIALLY drew up the way the middle east would look like? Sure as heck were not indigenous muslims, but French, Russian, and British Bureaucrats who did not even go to the region let alone know what Shia vs Sunni even was. But drew up arbitrary straight lines on a big map of the middle east to literally maximize resource extraction and political hegemony. Again, this is not deflection and muslims are answerable to many many things in the region, but westerners should not bury their heads in the sand either and instead own up to these things, is that so hard to do honestly? Heck, teach your kids or grandkids even a little bit of this so that they don't grow up and think the worst of muslims and think the west innocent of any and all wrongdoing in the region. 

Dude....what is this rant for? I'm fully aware of the unsavory parts of Christianity's history and my family was on the receiving end of some of it.( FYI...around here we never forcibly married anyone. Whatever sick stuff the Euros or anyone else were doing is no fault of mine.) 

When did I accuse Muslims of anything here? We are simply having a thought experiment. Lol.

PS....Thanks for being concerned with my kids and grandkids, but I'm sure they will be fine.

Sorry,but I think :):)this is funny.

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Just now, LeftCoastMom said:

Dude....what is this rant for? I'm fully aware of the unsavory parts of Christianity's history and my family was on the receiving end of some of it.( FYI...around here we never forcibly married anyone. Whatever sick stuff the Euros or anyone else were doing is no fault of mine.) 

When did I accuse Muslims of anything here? We are simply having a thought experiment. Lol.

PS....Thanks for being concerned with my kids and grandkids, but I'm sure they will be fine.

Sorry,but I think :):)this is funny.

Sorry, I mean to aim the post towards the top of the other post made about Arabia and Islam. I am new to the website and I accidentally responded to you (my post was hidden for about a week now and only just a couple of minutes ago was it made not hidden). Also, other posts directed at you in a more firm tone are directed towards other guys who use a rather arrogant tone to talk about muslims. It is just when I quote multiple people in my response I get mixed up. I am not sure if you are or did study in the STEM field, but I am taking organic chemistry and am honestly so focused on memorizing molecular compounds, mechanisms of reaction, etc. that I sometimes make slips in logic. 

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5 minutes ago, Guest Account Ali said:

Sorry, I mean to aim the post towards the top of the other post made about Arabia and Islam. I am new to the website and I accidentally responded to you (my post was hidden for about a week now and only just a couple of minutes ago was it made not hidden). Also, other posts directed at you in a more firm tone are directed towards other guys who use a rather arrogant tone to talk about muslims. It is just when I quote multiple people in my response I get mixed up. I am not sure if you are or did study in the STEM field, but I am taking organic chemistry and am honestly so focused on memorizing molecular compounds, mechanisms of reaction, etc. that I sometimes make slips in logic. 

Good luck in organic chemistry. My daughter was selected to do a STEM summer in a native Ed. program a few years back. Loved it. The term was not around when I was in school because I'm older than dirt now. But I did pass regular chem.

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On 10/12/2017 at 10:13 AM, hasanhh said:

Sura 10 Ayat 49

Judaism has nothing to do with it.  If it did, how will you explain Rome, China, Siam, Mogul, the Khanate, Babylon, and so forth?

Salam Hasanhh,

Good question. I believe this because of the Tanakh (or Old Testament) of the Bible, which is the foundation for the New Testament.  Thus, my reason to believe God has blessed the USA due to the Jewish people (including those who believe Yeshua is the Mashiach and those who don't) is based entirely on God's promise to Abraham and Isaac and Jacob (Israel).

As for Rome, Chine, and the other nations, my spiritual beliefs do not have any base in those empires. My religious beliefs are Judeo-centric, since Jesus Christ (Yehua HaMashiach) is Jewish, not Roman, not Chinese, etc.

Peace and God bless you

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On 10/11/2017 at 9:59 PM, SunniBrother said:

Do you think God only blessed the Jews and He only chose them to be His people?

Salam SunniBrother,

Nope. I believe God blesses people of all ethnic and religious groups and that He accepts people of all ethnic groups to be His people. However, I also believe He chose Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Israel) to be the line of the Anointed One, and that through the Anointed One (who I believe is Jesus Christ), He brings all people to Him:

As God revealed to Prophet Isaiah concerning the Anointed One:  (I boldened some.)

And now saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be His servant, to bring Jacob back to Him, and that Israel be gathered unto Him--for I am honourable in the eyes of the LORD, and my God is become my strength--

Yea, He saith: 'It is too light a thing that thou shouldest be My servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the offspring of Israel; I will also give thee for a light of the nations, that My salvation may be unto the end of the earth.'

Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, his Holy One, to him who is despised of men, to him who is abhorred of nations, to a servant of rulers: kings shall see and arise, princes, and they shall prostrate themselves; because of the LORD that is faithful, even the Holy One of Israel, who hath chosen thee.

Thus saith the LORD: In an acceptable time have I answered thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee; and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to raise up the land, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;

- Isaiah 49:5-8

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt1049.htm

Now, some people tend to get jealous of the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Israel), including some Arabs. That is one reason why there is so much hatred against Jewish people in some lands, because of jealousy and conspiracy theories based on jealousy.

Back to the topic of the thread, if more Arabs would learn to actually care for their Jewish neighbors (if they even have any), that would greatly benefit them, because God does bless the Children of Israel, whether other people groups like it or not. (Granted, He also punishes the Children of Israel too... both His blessings and punishments of the Children of Israel are well documented in the Tanakh.) 

Peace and God bless you

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56 minutes ago, Christianlady said:

Salam SunniBrother,

Nope. I believe God blesses people of all ethnic and religious groups and that He accepts people of all ethnic groups to be His people. However, I also believe He chose Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Israel) to be the line of the Anointed One, and that through the Anointed One (who I believe is Jesus Christ), He brings all people to Him:

As God revealed to Prophet Isaiah concerning the Anointed One:  (I boldened some.)

And now saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be His servant, to bring Jacob back to Him, and that Israel be gathered unto Him--for I am honourable in the eyes of the LORD, and my God is become my strength--

Yea, He saith: 'It is too light a thing that thou shouldest be My servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the offspring of Israel; I will also give thee for a light of the nations, that My salvation may be unto the end of the earth.'

Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, his Holy One, to him who is despised of men, to him who is abhorred of nations, to a servant of rulers: kings shall see and arise, princes, and they shall prostrate themselves; because of the LORD that is faithful, even the Holy One of Israel, who hath chosen thee.

Thus saith the LORD: In an acceptable time have I answered thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee; and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to raise up the land, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;

- Isaiah 49:5-8

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt1049.htm

Now, some people tend to get jealous of the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Israel), including some Arabs. That is one reason why there is so much hatred against Jewish people in some lands, because of jealousy and conspiracy theories based on jealousy.

Back to the topic of the thread, if more Arabs would learn to actually care for their Jewish neighbors (if they even have any), that would greatly benefit them, because God does bless the Children of Israel, whether other people groups like it or not. (Granted, He also punishes the Children of Israel too... both His blessings and punishments of the Children of Israel are well documented in the Tanakh.) 

Peace and God bless you

I agree also but one point real Arabs are present day Gulf Arabs Yemenis and Saudis not Levantines and North Africans who are just arabized descendants of indigenous middle easterners.

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22 minutes ago, Mishael said:

I agree also but one point real Arabs are present day Gulf Arabs Yemenis and Saudis not Levantines and North Africans who are just arabized descendants of indigenous middle easterners.

Salam Mischael,

This is an interesting point that I learned some about from my Coptic Christian friends. Many of their ancestors in Egypt are not originally Arabic, yet when the Arabs invaded Egypt, it became very beneficial for the Copts to adopt Arabic and adapt to Arabic culture. And, many families interemarried with Arabs, who are themselves a people group that is considered "mixed."

The Syrian people have had the same experience in a way, because Syrians (or Assyrians accounted in the Tanakh) were not originally Arabic. They were conquered by the Arabs and thus adapted to the language and the Arabic way of doing things.

It's very similar to how the English and Spanish have conquered different people groups and forced their language and way on the indigenous people. :(That's not a good thing; it's just a fact that this happened to many people groups, not just to people conquered by the Arabs.

One thing that is interesting to me is that before Islam, Christian Arabs as far as I know didn't try to conquer other people groups, correct? And, this is in line with Jesus Christ's commands because Jesus Christ commands his followers to love their neighbors as themselves and love enemies. His Jewish followers didn't try to conquer other people groups either, after Jesus rebuked Peter for using the sword. Sadly, Christians from both England and Spain have disobeyed Jesus Christ's commands to love neighbors as oneself and love enemies. :(

Peace and God bless you

 

 

Edited by Christianlady

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1 hour ago, Christianlady said:

Salam Mischael,

This is an interesting point that I learned some about from my Coptic Christian friends. Many of their ancestors in Egypt are not originally Arabic, yet when the Arabs invaded Egypt, it became very beneficial for the Copts to adopt Arabic and adapt to Arabic culture. And, many families interemarried with Arabs, who are themselves a people group that is considered "mixed."

The Syrian people have had the same experience in a way, because Syrians (or Assyrians accounted in the Tanakh) were not originally Arabic. They were conquered by the Arabs and thus adapted to the language and the Arabic way of doing things.

It's very similar to how the English and Spanish have conquered different people groups and forced their language and way on the indigenous people. :(That's not a good thing; it's just a fact that this happened to many people groups, not just to people conquered by the Arabs.

One thing that is interesting to me is that before Islam, Christian Arabs as far as I know didn't try to conquer other people groups, correct? And, this is in line with Jesus Christ's commands because Jesus Christ commands his followers to love their neighbors as themselves and love enemies. His Jewish followers didn't try to conquer other people groups either, after Jesus rebuked Peter for using the sword. Sadly, Christians from both England and Spain have disobeyed Jesus Christ's commands to love neighbors as oneself and love enemies. :(

Peace and God bless you

 

 

Christian Arabians don't really exist anymore I'm not really Arab my ancestors were Mesopotamian Phoenicians and syriac Christians not Arabs probably, and if your talking about the crusades well technically they were justified since the Muslims were killing Christian pilgrims on their way to the holy land of Jerusalem.

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4 hours ago, Mishael said:

Christian Arabians don't really exist anymore I'm not really Arab my ancestors were Mesopotamian Phoenicians and syriac Christians not Arabs probably, and if your talking about the crusades well technically they were justified since the Muslims were killing Christian pilgrims on their way to the holy land of Jerusalem.

What backs up such claims that there are no Christian Arabs anymore?

As for Crusades being morally justified, I would appreciate knowing where you take this information from and what moral commandments and historic precedents justify the actions that took place in them.

Narrations of oppression in Muslim territories started to took place under specific areas where Christian pilgrims started to suffer from oppression (not im the whole Arab world). Under fatimids, Christians enjoyed great freedom and had luxurious spaces of worship, and that was both in Egypt and Jerusalem. When the Turks took over Jerusalem, oppression started. It was not a matter of religion or ethnicity, but a matter of politics.

In the other hand, Crusades had economical benefits for certain interests in the West 

I rely on the studies made by Will and Ariel Durant on History of Civilization IV (Age of Faith). It is a volume I heavily encourage you to read.

Edited by Bakir

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12 hours ago, Bakir said:

What backs up such claims that there are no Christian Arabs anymore?

As for Crusades being morally justified, I would appreciate knowing where you take this information from and what moral commandments and historic precedents justify the actions that took place in them.

Narrations of oppression in Muslim territories started to took place under specific areas where Christian pilgrims started to suffer from oppression (not im the whole Arab world). Under fatimids, Christians enjoyed great freedom and had luxurious spaces of worship, and that was both in Egypt and Jerusalem. When the Turks took over Jerusalem, oppression started. It was not a matter of religion or ethnicity, but a matter of politics.

In the other hand, Crusades had economical benefits for certain interests in the West 

I rely on the studies made by Will and Ariel Durant on History of Civilization IV (Age of Faith). It is a volume I heavily encourage you to read.

Christian Arabs the real ones exist in Jordan they were originally lived in northern Hejaz modern day Saudi but left with the Hashemites to Jordan when Saudi was founded some Christian Saudis probably do exist but there hidden by the government because there are Jews here aswell but they have Muslim stamped on their passports and they can't say they are Jews openly also the authentic Christian Arabs in Jordan are only a specific tribe that are descended from the Ghassanids an Arab tribe that didn't convert to Islam even after the Muslims occupied northern Hejaz and Jordan. And about the Crusades they were initiated due to Christian pilgrims being killed and raided and because the Byzantine Empire made a plea to western Catholic Europe because the empire lost Anatolia to the Turks after the disastrous battle of Manzikert now the empire was not militarily capable of defending itself against the Islamic world so the Christian world for the sake of their own safety couldn't turn down this plea because if Byzantium falls what next Rome and the papacy and it was also because the Fatimids burned down the church of the Holy Sepulchre. 

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On 11/4/2017 at 3:42 PM, Mishael said:

Christian Arabians don't really exist anymore I'm not really Arab my ancestors were Mesopotamian Phoenicians and syriac Christians not Arabs probably,

Salam Mishael,

It's so cool that Phoenicia is mentioned in the Bible!

"Now those who had been scattered by the persecution that broke out when Stephen was killed traveled as far as Phoenicia, Cyprus and Antioch, spreading the word only among Jews. Some of them, however, men from Cyprus and Cyrene, went to Antioch and began to speak to Greeks also, telling them the good news about the Lord Jesus. The Lord’s hand was with them, and a great number of people believed and turned to the Lord." - Acts 11:19-21 (NIV)

Quote

if your talking about the crusades well technically they were justified since the Muslims were killing Christian pilgrims on their way to the holy land of Jerusalem.

Jesus Christ rebuked Peter when Peter tried to defend him with a sword. He knew that he would be tortured and killed before rising from the dead, and he did not preach revenge.

"Jesus commanded Peter, “Put your sword away! Shall I not drink the cup the Father has given me?” - John 18:11 (NIV)

Jesus gave us the prime example on the cross of what to do when our enemies hurt us:

Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” And they divided up his clothes by casting lots." - Luke 23:34 (NIV)

The first Christian martyr, a Jewish man named Stephen, followed Jesus' example when he was stoned to death:

"While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” Then he fell on his knees and cried out, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” When he had said this, he fell asleep." - Acts 7:59-60 (NIV)

So, it is not obeying Jesus Christ to kill enemies, cause Jesus Christ specifically commanded his followers to love their enemies.

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[i] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. - Matthew 5:43-48 (NIV)

Peace and God bless you

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On 11/11/2017 at 12:23 PM, Christianlady said:

Salam Mishael,

It's so cool that Phoenicia is mentioned in the Bible!

"Now those who had been scattered by the persecution that broke out when Stephen was killed traveled as far as Phoenicia, Cyprus and Antioch, spreading the word only among Jews. Some of them, however, men from Cyprus and Cyrene, went to Antioch and began to speak to Greeks also, telling them the good news about the Lord Jesus. The Lord’s hand was with them, and a great number of people believed and turned to the Lord." - Acts 11:19-21 (NIV)

Jesus Christ rebuked Peter when Peter tried to defend him with a sword. He knew that he would be tortured and killed before rising from the dead, and he did not preach revenge.

"Jesus commanded Peter, “Put your sword away! Shall I not drink the cup the Father has given me?” - John 18:11 (NIV)

Jesus gave us the prime example on the cross of what to do when our enemies hurt us:

Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” And they divided up his clothes by casting lots." - Luke 23:34 (NIV)

The first Christian martyr, a Jewish man named Stephen, followed Jesus' example when he was stoned to death:

"While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” Then he fell on his knees and cried out, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” When he had said this, he fell asleep." - Acts 7:59-60 (NIV)

So, it is not obeying Jesus Christ to kill enemies, cause Jesus Christ specifically commanded his followers to love their enemies.

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[i] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. - Matthew 5:43-48 (NIV)

Peace and God bless you

Yes I agree though you can't spread the faith by the sword but if you have no choice but to defend yourself by the the sword it is permissible see here,

 Luke 22:36 “He said to them, “But now let the one who has a moneybag take it, and likewise a knapsack. And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one.

Also phoenicians were one of the first people to become Christian after the Jews since within a few years the majority of Phoenicia was Christian Paganism became the religion of the few and the religion of God became the religion of the many. God bless and keep you.

Edited by Hameedeh
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