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Mishael

How would Arabia be if Islam never existed?

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I'm always interested in the history of Arabia and the Middle East before Islam, I always think it would have been better if Islam never existed in Arabia or it happened somewhere else.

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No comment on Islam, but I would probably be writing to the Arabian Orthodox Patriarch in Jedda or Riyadh or some such place. Christian bishops often got off the boat or cart or camel and baptized anything that didn't get up and walk away from them.

Result for us: Daughter would not have had to get permission from her bishop to marry SG because he would likely be an OG, which is kosher.

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1 hour ago, Mishael said:

I'm always interested in the history of Arabia and the Middle East before Islam, I always think it would have been better if Islam never existed in Arabia or it happened somewhere else.

Better for whom? 

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1 hour ago, LeftCoastMom said:

No comment on Islam, but I would probably be writing to the Arabian Orthodox Patriarch in Jedda or Riyadh or some such place. Christian bishops often got off the boat or cart or camel and baptized anything that didn't get up and walk away from them.

Result for us: Daughter would not have had to get permission from her bishop to marry SG because he would likely be an OG, which is kosher.

If only lol.

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10 minutes ago, Mishael said:

For the Arabs.

Why? They were nomadic merchant traders, like the modern day Romani, and things haven't gone so well for the Romani in the past few centuries.

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8 hours ago, Mishael said:

I'm always interested in the history of Arabia and the Middle East before Islam, I always think it would have been better if Islam never existed in Arabia or it happened somewhere else.

So you prefer that they remained raiding other tribes for their livelihood? Waging wars that last 40 years over land that was trespassed? :confused:

If i wasnt accused of exagerrating, i would have ventured to say that with their endless vendettas and internecine wars, the arab race would have been on the verge of extinction had Islam not united them as one people under one God. And thats not taking into account their abject poverty, rampant infanticide, deadly tribalism and perverse sexual habits. 

Baffling how anyone can find anything redeeming about that period of history lol  

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A small clip from a movie showing what original Islam gave to Arabs.

Too bad Saudis and other GCC Arabs reverted back to the dark ages in their actions. Their new god is dollar, their alter of worship is in White House, and their prophets are western embassadors. 

Edited by Irfani313

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8 hours ago, Mishael said:

I'm always interested in the history of Arabia and the Middle East before Islam, I always think it would have been better if Islam never existed in Arabia or it happened somewhere else.

The Arabs would probably be dead and Arabic would be a instinct language. There would be a major war between Persia and Byzantine Empire, Probably Europe would be filled with Zoroastrians. Judaism and Christianity would probably be instincts religions. Arabia would produce lots of wine and opium.

Edited by SunniBrother

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8 hours ago, Mishael said:

I'm always interested in the history of Arabia and the Middle East before Islam, I always think it would have been better if Islam never existed in Arabia or it happened somewhere else.

Salam Mishael,

To be objective, we could also ask what would have happened to Arabia if Judaism and Christianity never existed in Arabia?

I guess paganism would still be the dominant religion in Arabia, if Judaism and Christianity and Islam never existed in Arabia.

Digging deeper into the question of if Islam never existed in Arabia, we would first have to define Islam. For most Muslims, it seems they consider Islam to be from Adam's time. However, for most Non-Muslims including me, Islam = the belief Muhammad taught, which differs in some areas from both Judaism and Christianity. 

Now, if Islam had not happened in Arabia, it would be interesting to consider the Jewish people (descendants of Judah, as well as the other sons of Jacob (Israel) son of Isaac, son of Abraham) who lived in Arabia. Would many of their descendants still be living there today if Islam never existed? (Many Jewish people fled from Israel/Judea during the Babylonian conquest, as well as centuries later during the Roman destruction of the Jewish Jerusalem. Many made their home in both Persia and Arabia.)

Personally, I believe that one of the reasons God has blessed the USA is because many Jewish people have made the USA their home. While God definitely punishes disobedient Jewish people for their sins, He also richly blesses them in ways that makes other groups of people jealous (hence one of the sad excuses for antisemitism).

I personally believe Arabia would be a more fertile land today if more Jewish people were welcome there. Whether the hostility against Jewish people is due to Islam itself, or political reasons, the fact of the matter is that Arabia is not considered a welcome place for many Jewish people.

Peace and God bless you

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Christianlady said:

Salam Mishael,

To be objective, we could also ask what would have happened to Arabia if Judaism and Christianity never existed in Arabia?

I guess paganism would still be the dominant religion in Arabia, if Judaism and Christianity and Islam never existed in Arabia.

Digging deeper into the question of if Islam never existed in Arabia, we would first have to define Islam. For most Muslims, it seems they consider Islam to be from Adam's time. However, for most Non-Muslims including me, Islam = the belief Muhammad taught, which differs in some areas from both Judaism and Christianity. 

Now, if Islam had not happened in Arabia, it would be interesting to consider the Jewish people (descendants of Judah, as well as the other sons of Jacob (Israel) son of Isaac, son of Abraham) who lived in Arabia. Would many of their descendants still be living there today if Islam never existed? (Many Jewish people fled from Israel/Judea during the Babylonian conquest, as well as centuries later during the Roman destruction of the Jewish Jerusalem. Many made their home in both Persia and Arabia.)

Personally, I believe that one of the reasons God has blessed the USA is because many Jewish people have made the USA their home. While God definitely punishes disobedient Jewish people for their sins, He also richly blesses them in ways that makes other groups of people jealous (hence one of the sad excuses for antisemitism).

I personally believe Arabia would be a more fertile land today if more Jewish people were welcome there. Whether the hostility against Jewish people is due to Islam itself, or political reasons, the fact of the matter is that Arabia is not considered a welcome place for many Jewish people.

Peace and God bless you

 

 

 

Lady have you lived with Jews? Do you know Jews? And by Jews I mean real Jews.

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14 minutes ago, SunniBrother said:

The Arabs would probably be dead

Salam SunniBrother,

I disagree with this. The Arabs were a strong people group even before Muhammad's birth. While Muhammad united the Arab tribes, they were definitely not weaklings. They definitely grew stronger militarily under a united front. That's one positive on a military level that Muhammad gave the Arabs: a sense of unity and purpose that they didn't have before in order to conquer other countries, including the Byzantian Empire, and the Persian Empire.

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and Arabic would be a instinct language.

I don't think Arabic would be extinct, no. It would not be as well known however, without Islam.

Quote

There would be a major war between Persia and Byzantine Empire,

The Persian and Byzantine empires were fighting each other before Muhammad united the Arab tribes. One reason why the Arabs eventually conquered both empires is because the Persian Empire weakened the Byzantine Empire and vise versa.

Quote

Probably Europe would be filled with Zoroastrians.

That would be interesting. Did the Zorastrians spread their belief by dawah/evangelism or the sword?

Quote

Judaism and Christianity would probably be instincts religions.

Disagreed. while it's a miracle from God actually that Judaism still exists, both Judaism and Christianity thrive on martyrdom.

Quote

Arabia would produce lots of wine and opium.

Why?

Peace and God bless you

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4 minutes ago, SunniBrother said:

Lady have you lived with Jews? Do you know Jews? And by Jews I mean real Jews.

Salam SunniBrother,

Yes. I have many friends who are Jewish. Yes really Jewish lol, of many different beliefs: Orthodox Judaism, Reform Judaism, Messianic Judaism, Agnostic, and Atheist Jews. Just like Arabs have different beliefs (Christian, Muslim, Agnostic, Atheist, etc), so do Jewish people.

Peace and God bless you

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29 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

What has yet to be pointed out so far is that there were numerous chr!stians and Jews in Arabia for hundreds of years.

Salam Hasanhh,

Interestingly, it wasn't until after Islam that this began to change, starting with when Muhammad expelled some Jewish people from their homes.

Peace and God bless you

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15 minutes ago, Christianlady said:

Salam SunniBrother,

Yes. I have many friends who are Jewish. Yes really Jewish lol, of many different beliefs: Orthodox Judaism, Reform Judaism, Messianic Judaism, Agnostic, and Atheist Jews. Just like Arabs have different beliefs (Christian, Muslim, Agnostic, Atheist, etc), so do Jewish people.

Peace and God bless you

Do you think God only blessed the Jews and He only chose them to be His people?

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18 minutes ago, Christianlady said:

Salam SunniBrother,

I disagree with this. The Arabs were a strong people group even before Muhammad's birth. While Muhammad united the Arab tribes, they were definitely not weaklings. They definitely grew stronger militarily under a united front. That's one positive on a military level that Muhammad gave the Arabs: a sense of unity and purpose that they didn't have before in order to conquer other countries, including the Byzantian Empire, and the Persian Empire.

I don't think Arabic would be extinct, no. It would not be as well known however, without Islam.

The Persian and Byzantine empires were fighting each other before Muhammad united the Arab tribes. One reason why the Arabs eventually conquered both empires is because the Persian Empire weakened the Byzantine Empire and vise versa.

That would be interesting. Did the Zorastrians spread their belief by dawah/evangelism or the sword?

Disagreed. while it's a miracle from God actually that Judaism still exists, both Judaism and Christianity thrive on martyrdom.

Why?

Peace and God bless you

1 - Yes Arabs where strong but disunited, they would probably killed each other.

2 - That's true.

3 - No they did not spread by sword. But Persian land was default Zoroastrian so this would have impacted European Culture and some Zoroastrians could had migrated to Europe and multiply there.

4 - Islam protected the Christians Orthodox, Copts and Jews as well.

5 - Because they had many of that pre-Islamic era. They would probably grow that production if Islam didn't prohibited.

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11 hours ago, LeftCoastMom said:

No comment on Islam, but I would probably be writing to the Arabian Orthodox Patriarch in Jedda or Riyadh or some such place. Christian bishops often got off the boat or cart or camel and baptized anything that didn't get up and walk away from them.

Result for us: Daughter would not have had to get permission from her bishop to marry SG because he would likely be an OG, which is kosher.

More likely a Nestorian or a Severan Monophysite Bishop, or possibly even an Arian one. It's said in dictum, falsely attributed to St. Theodoret of Cyrrhus, that "Arabia hæresium ferax", "Arabia is the bearer [or mother] of heresies".

 

___________________________

On another note, prior to the Qur'an there were laws against female infanticide in various Arabian cultures. For example it was outlawed in a Sabaic inscription from the second century AD, found in the ancient city of Matirat, around 40 km from Sana'a.

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11 hours ago, Mishael said:

I'm always interested in the history of Arabia and the Middle East before Islam, I always think it would have been better if Islam never existed in Arabia or it happened somewhere else.

P.S: The actions of Christians doesn't necessarily equal Christianity depending on the case we are talking about.

Depends, for the Slavs in Europe and indigenous pagan europeans ( For those not versed in history this may shock you but Europeans were not originally christian and unfortunately were in alarmingly quite decent amount of cases forcibly converted by the Romans) they would have been better off without Christians and the Romans. Ironically, the word "slave" comes from the word "Slav" as christian Romans at that time used to mass enslave the Slavs and trade them, and they became the definitive archetype of a person in bondage in the minds of the Romans. Also, the Native Americans would be alive today, Aboriginals, Most of South and Central America would be better off and not have their culture and religion prior to around 1492 having been utterly destroyed by the spanish amongst other european nations, also let us not forget Judaism which in the Torah sanctioned mass genocide against the indigenous people of modern day palestine. Also, not to mention until the late 19th century a genuine amount of christians in political positions of power found it perfectly okay to forcibly convert people. I can go on and on and on about the MUCH MUCH more violent history of Christians (not christianity as I do make the distinction that christians don't equal Christianity). But, I won't because having conversations like this is seriously inundated and ridiculous. Would the world be better off without Germans? (This is a sarcastic question, I don't actually mean Germans are bad people, but I wanted to make a point by posing silly sarcastic questions). 

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11 hours ago, LeftCoastMom said:

No comment on Islam, but I would probably be writing to the Arabian Orthodox Patriarch in Jedda or Riyadh or some such place. Christian bishops often got off the boat or cart or camel and baptized anything that didn't get up and walk away from them.

Result for us: Daughter would not have had to get permission from her bishop to marry SG because he would likely be an OG, which is kosher.

Look, I am trying really hard to not say that christians equal christianity. But honestly, read a history book on your people's past and understand that a decent chunk of you guys would forcibly marry your daughters until the split of state and church came. Were there genuine marriages? Yes. But from the perspective of Muslims there were also an alarmingly competitive number of christian women being forcibly married against their will, to which christian bishops sanctified at that time. Yes I am aware that christian beliefs change over time, but don't bury your head in the sand over your past not so great history. Christian Bishops at that time used to honestly believe that women did not even have souls and were just baby-making machines. Most famous is Martin Luther who seriously saw no point in the existence of women, aside from maybe Bibi Maryam (AS) and women and their ability to be pregnant. In retrospect, It really is not surprising why the split of state and church came in Europe. Also, I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt that Christians have a right to say what they think is representative and unrepresentative in their history, what is unorthodox to do and what is not, what their outlooks are on their past christian scholars and their beliefs and how do they fit into the modern theology of christianity. Understand one thing, every perceivably negative thing you can accuse muslims of and their history points RIGHT BACK AT YOU AND YOUR HISTORY. 

Also, I can probably imagine the OP is going to post something about the modern state of the muslim world. And yes, the modern muslim world has many issues. A genuine chunk of blame goes to muslims, but a similar genuine chunk goes towards the political meddling of western powers in the region. Muslims should own up to their mistakes in the region and fix them, that is the fixing of issues should not go against precepts of Islam. But in order to not keep making more issues in the region muslims should evict western political hegemony from the region and truly be independent. Heck, imagine if countries in the Middle East threatened to dissolve borders, that sure would put gas prices in the west into a tizzy. Going from that topic, after world war 1, who PARTIALLY drew up the way the middle east would look like? Sure as heck were not indigenous muslims, but French, Russian, and British Bureaucrats who did not even go to the region let alone know what Shia vs Sunni even was. But drew up arbitrary straight lines on a big map of the middle east to literally maximize resource extraction and political hegemony. Again, this is not deflection and muslims are answerable to many many things in the region, but westerners should not bury their heads in the sand either and instead own up to these things, is that so hard to do honestly? Heck, teach your kids or grandkids even a little bit of this so that they don't grow up and think the worst of muslims and think the west innocent of any and all wrongdoing in the region. 

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Arabs before Islam were described as Ignorant

So without Islam they would have remained ignorant

 

Not meant to offend anyone

Edited by Hassu93

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8 hours ago, SunniBrother said:

1 - Yes Arabs where strong but disunited, they would probably killed each other.

Salam SunniBrother,

Some Arabs are disunited again today, and some Arabs still kill each other, sadly.

Quote

 

2 - That's true.

3 - No they did not spread by sword. But Persian land was default Zoroastrian so this would have impacted European Culture and some Zoroastrians could had migrated to Europe and multiply there.

 

Was King Cyrus the Great of Persia a Zoroastrian? He was one of the greatest kings of all time, and gave the Cyrus Charter of Human Rights, which was unprecedented in his time. Interestingly, he obviously didn't need to be either Jewish or Christian or Muslim to do this.

"Cyrus the Great proclaimed more than 2500 years ago: "Today, I announce that everyone is free to choose a religion. People are free to live in all regions and take up a job provided that they never violate other's rights." Cyrus the Great declared himself not a conqueror, but a liberator and the rightful successor to the crown.

The ancient world held universal admiration for the beliefs and practices of the Persians as enshrined in the Cyrus Charter of Human Rights. Even the Greeks, the traditional adversaries of the Persians, called Cyrus "The Lawgiver". History has recorded that Cyrus did accomplish the task for which he was foreordained."

http://www.farsinet.com/cyrus/

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4 - Islam protected the Christians Orthodox, Copts and Jews as well

There are many people in the world who disagree with that statement. My Coptic friends who have taken refuge in the USA left their beloved home in Egypt because of Muslims. Has Islam protected them? They don't believe so.

Quote


5 - Because they had many of that pre-Islamic era. They would probably grow that production if Islam didn't prohibited.

 

Ah, thanks for explaining.

Peace and God bless you

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11 hours ago, Irfani313 said:

A small clip from a movie showing what original Islam gave to Arabs.

Too bad Saudis and other GCC Arabs reverted back to the dark ages in their actions. Their new god is dollar, their alter of worship is in White House, and their prophets are western embassadors. 

I'm Saudi but not full Saudi and I value the history of pre Islamic Arabia and I also value pre Islamic Iran even though I'm not an Iranian or Shia or even Muslim I admire Iran. The only Islamic history that I value is the Ummayads history it was probably the most progressive and peaceful besides Husseins brutal death. 

Edited by Mishael

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19 hours ago, Mishael said:

I'm always interested in the history of Arabia and the Middle East before Islam, I always think it would have been better if Islam never existed in Arabia or it happened somewhere else.

-Extreme tribalism.

-Few literates in 1 city(Before Islam Mecca had less than 17 literate people).

-Science was very rear, they knew only basic things if science even was a "thing" back then.

-Tribal wars(hundreds).

-Pagans.

-Conquered by Byzantines or Persians.

-Nomadic traders.

-Basic clay architecture(while Islam brought the excellent Islamic architecture which combined more than 1 type of architecture).

 

I personally would not want to see Arabia in such place. 

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8 hours ago, Ibn Al-Ja'abi said:

More likely a Nestorian or a Severan Monophysite Bishop, or possibly even an Arian one. It's said in dictum, falsely attributed to St. Theodoret of Cyrrhus, that "Arabia hæresium ferax", "Arabia is the bearer [or mother] of heresies".

 

___________________________

On another note, prior to the Qur'an there were laws against female infanticide in various Arabian cultures. For example it was outlawed in a Sabaic inscription from the second century AD, found in the ancient city of Matirat, around 40 km from Sana'a.

That is also quite possible. I have often wondered what congregation used that church which ruins were found in Saudi Arabia. As far as the Arabs vexing " ignorant"back then, etc. Arabs were and are too big and diverse of a group to make broad statements about,IMHO. Same problem that is had with the Druids, etc....the people writing about you are often your enemies. Not often an objective source of information.

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