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4 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

I'm confused. 

Where have I mentioned if whether those items are in there or not?

Or are you saying that those  prayer methods are so critically vital to follow but they are not in the Quran and we need to do them?

If these are not in the Quran how can you practice the salah? without following the sunna of the prophet saww as defined in his hadith?

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2 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

If Allah is never dead and obeying Allah = obeying messenger, then it stands to reason obeying the messenger extends beyond his lifetime.  

Hadith, we all know are not 100% reliable, may contradict itself and quran, so I take obeying Allah and obeying messenger as obeying Quran

Say: “If ye do love Allah, follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins; for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.” [Qur’an, The Family of Imran, 3:31]

Does the quran mention that the sunna should not be followed through hadith?

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2 minutes ago, skyweb1987 said:

The prophet has said in his traditions that he has left two weighty things one is book of Allah and the second is sunna of the prophet (Sunni sources )

 Also the same hadith also mention the two weighty things as book of Allah and his Ahl albayat ie progeny of the prophet saww. (Mu[Edited Out]er)

Thus making it obvious tha the progeny should be followed leading to the true sunna of the prophet saww.

I have extreme a doubt in those hadith verses as I beleive they contradict the Quran, and itself.  The Prophet Muhammad SAW if he was of true character, could not have said these words. 

Allah left us the Quran, not Muhammad. Allah left us the Book of Allah, in that same book Allah states he is the guide and muhammad SAW is not as I have shown in my posts here earlier. He is but a messenger  (quite literally in quran as I also referenced).

For these reasons I don't hold these hadith as authentic. 

1 minute ago, skyweb1987 said:

If these are not in the Quran how can you practice the salah? without following the sunna of the prophet saww as defined in his hadith?

As I mentioned before ,  why is that necessary?  Are the way Jews and Christians pray from their traditions wrong, or how their (our) messengers did?  I practice the way others learned who believe they learned it from those who saw the Prophet do it.   That is sufficient for me, as how I pray does not dictate my place in hell or heaven, so as long as its Allah who recieves my worship. 

 

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7 minutes ago, skyweb1987 said:

Say: “If ye do love Allah, follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins; for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.” [Qur’an, The Family of Imran, 3:31]

Does the quran mention that the sunna should not be followed through hadith?

I will include verse 3:32 the verse after too, for context,

Say, "Obey Allah and the Messenger." But if they turn away - then indeed, Allah does not like the disbelievers.

Also, in the verses you showed before, pledging allegiance to the messenger is pledging allegiance to Allah? 

I don't see your point here.  It's hard for me to assume this means follow sunnah in these verses.

Directly after it refers to Zechariah AS, Mariam ASa and Isa ibn Mariam AS,  there's little to no room fir understanding this to mean Sunnah.  In this Surah,  Isa AS through Allah asked that he be followed , what happened to Isa's Sunnah then?  how he prayed and behaved?

 

And [I have come] confirming what was before me of the Torah and to make lawful for you some of what was forbidden to you. And I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, so fear Allah and obey me.

But when Jesus felt [persistence in] disbelief from them, he said, "Who are my supporters for [the cause of] Allah ?" The disciples said," We are supporters for Allah . We have believed in Allah and testify that we are Muslims [submitting to Him].

Our Lord, we have believed in what You revealed and have followed the messenger Jesus, so register us among the witnesses [to truth]."

Now we have ourselves a real situation. 

Allah is drectly telling us in the quran, Obey the messenger and Obey Allah,  now through these verses (3:50-3:53) we find the Messenger isnt just Muhammad SAW is it?

Obey Allah = obey messenger  , and by messenger he means any and all of which were sent (which is in verses we used here in the conversation).  

Allah commanded Isa AS like he did to Muhammad SAW to follow him the exact same way .... as earlier mentioned... where is Isa's sunnah?

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18 minutes ago, S.M.H.A. said:

80:12 and 80:13 answer your question quite nicely.

No! Indeed, these verses are a reminder; So whoever wills may remember it.

Allah swt from 80:1 to 80:12 only  mentions/refers to a  "he" and "you", and those are the only subjects sufficient for us to know to understand the message here.

 

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2 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

80:12 and 80:13 answer your question quite nicely.

No! Indeed, these verses are a reminder; So whoever wills may remember it.

Allah swt from 80:1 to 80:12 only  mentions/refers to a  "he" and "you", and those are the only subjects sufficient for us to know to understand the message here.

 

Who Frowned? Name

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2 minutes ago, S.M.H.A. said:

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235037162-the-quranist-movement/#comment-2909027

1]Who are the ones "Firmly grounded in Knowledge". Based on the Qur'an -

2]First would be Prophet Muhammad[pbuhahp]. So, how do you justify "Book is sufficient for us".

3]How do you identify these people after Prophet Muhammad[pbuhahp]? 

1]  The quran states in 3:7, the ones grounded in knowledge are those who beleive in it, all of it in addition those who say this and grasp its meaning are men of understanding.

2) I justify it because in 3;7 it states the verses are clear and precise, in addition to vague (which quran 80:1-13, is a great example of over analyzing the weeds of who and what)

3] Irrelevant to me.  The people must read/ know Quran with an open heart/state of mind,  cant force or change a person to do this no matter who you are.  

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6 minutes ago, S.M.H.A. said:

Who Frowned? Name

why do you need to know?  Allah is telling you, this verse is for you as a reminder.  He who frowned could be anyone of us. You're missing the message.

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3 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

why do you need to know?  Allah is telling you, this verse is for you as a reminder.  He who frowned could be anyone of us. You're missing the message.

هُوَ الَّذِي أَنْزَلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ مِنْهُ آيَاتٌ مُحْكَمَاتٌ هُنَّ أُمُّ الْكِتَابِ وَأُخَرُ مُتَشَابِهَاتٌ ۖ فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ فِي قُلُوبِهِمْ زَيْغٌ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَابَهَ مِنْهُ ابْتِغَاءَ الْفِتْنَةِ وَابْتِغَاءَ تَأْوِيلِهِ ۗ وَمَا يَعْلَمُ تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلَّا اللَّهُ ۗ وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ يَقُولُونَ آمَنَّا بِهِ كُلٌّ مِنْ عِنْدِ رَبِّنَا ۗ وَمَا يَذَّكَّرُ إِلَّا أُولُو الْأَلْبَابِ {7}

[Shakir 3:7] He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.


[Pickthal 3:7] He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.


[Yusufali 3:7] He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

What is the Quranist understanding of Surah 3, Verse 7. 

1]Who are the ones "Firmly grounded in Knowledge". Based on the Qur'an -

2]First would be Prophet Muhammad[pbuhahp]. So, how do you justify "Book is sufficient for us".

3]How do you identify these people after Prophet Muhammad[pbuhahp]? 

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33 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

1]  The quran states in 3:7, the ones grounded in knowledge are those who beleive in it, all of it in addition those who say this and grasp its meaning are men of understanding.

2) I justify it because in 3;7 it states the verses are clear and precise, in addition to vague (which quran 80:1-13, is a great example of over analyzing the weeds of who and what)

3] Irrelevant to me.  The people must read/ know Quran with an open heart/state of mind,  cant force or change a person to do this no matter who you are.  

اهْدِنَا الصِّرَاطَ الْمُسْتَقِيمَ {6}

[Pickthal 1:6] Show us the straight path,

صِرَاطَ الَّذِينَ أَنْعَمْتَ عَلَيْهِمْ غَيْرِ الْمَغْضُوبِ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا الضَّالِّينَ {7}

[Pickthal 1:7] The path of those whom Thou hast favoured; Not the (path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray.

 

What is this Straight Path?

1:7 Whose Path? Who are they? How do you Identify them?

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29 minutes ago, S.M.H.A. said:

هُوَ الَّذِي أَنْزَلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ مِنْهُ آيَاتٌ مُحْكَمَاتٌ هُنَّ أُمُّ الْكِتَابِ وَأُخَرُ مُتَشَابِهَاتٌ ۖ فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ فِي قُلُوبِهِمْ زَيْغٌ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَابَهَ مِنْهُ ابْتِغَاءَ الْفِتْنَةِ وَابْتِغَاءَ تَأْوِيلِهِ ۗ وَمَا يَعْلَمُ تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلَّا اللَّهُ ۗ وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ يَقُولُونَ آمَنَّا بِهِ كُلٌّ مِنْ عِنْدِ رَبِّنَا ۗ وَمَا يَذَّكَّرُ إِلَّا أُولُو الْأَلْبَابِ {7}

[Shakir 3:7] He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.


[Pickthal 3:7] He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.


[Yusufali 3:7] He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

What is the Quranist understanding of Surah 3, Verse 7. 

1]Who are the ones "Firmly grounded in Knowledge". Based on the Qur'an -

2]First would be Prophet Muhammad[pbuhahp]. So, how do you justify "Book is sufficient for us".

3]How do you identify these people after Prophet Muhammad[pbuhahp]? 

 

34 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

1]  The quran states in 3:7, the ones grounded in knowledge are those who beleive in it, all of it in addition those who say this and grasp its meaning are men of understanding.

2) I justify it because in 3;7 it states the verses are clear and precise, in addition to vague (which quran 80:1-13, is a great example of over analyzing the weeds of who and what)

3] Irrelevant to me.  The people must read/ know Quran with an open heart/state of mind,  cant force or change a person to do this no matter who you are.  

I provided my understanding above, I dont know the quranist understanding. 

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1 hour ago, wmehar2 said:

why do you need to know?  Allah is telling you, this verse is for you as a reminder.  He who frowned could be anyone of us. You're missing the message.

You would not know who these two were, not written in the Qur'an.

According to above Logic? This would  be a reminder for who?  You and others today 

 

إِنْ تَتُوبَا إِلَى اللَّهِ فَقَدْ صَغَتْ قُلُوبُكُمَا ۖ وَإِنْ تَظَاهَرَا عَلَيْهِ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ هُوَ مَوْلَاهُ وَجِبْرِيلُ وَصَالِحُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ ۖ وَالْمَلَائِكَةُ بَعْدَ ذَٰلِكَ ظَهِيرٌ {4}

[Pickthal 66:4] If ye twain turn unto Allah repentant, (ye have cause to do so) for your hearts desired (the ban); and if ye aid one another against him (Muhammad) then lo! Allah, even He, is his Protecting Friend, and Gabriel and the righteous among the believers; and furthermore the angels are his helpers.

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2 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

I have extreme a doubt in those hadith verses as I beleive they contradict the Quran, and itself.  The Prophet Muhammad SAW if he was of true character, could not have said these words. 

Allah left us the Quran, not Muhammad. Allah left us the Book of Allah, in that same book Allah states he is the guide and muhammad SAW is not as I have shown in my posts here earlier. He is but a messenger  (quite literally in quran as I also referenced).

The same has already been replied but you are neglecting .

If the prophet saww is not a guide as per your thinking then Why Allah stw is mentioning in many verses to obey and follow the prophet?

This is the neglecting of the verses.

Edited by skyweb1987

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2 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

As I mentioned before ,  why is that necessary?  Are the way Jews and Christians pray from their traditions wrong, or how their (our) messengers did?  I practice the way others learned who believe they learned it from those who saw the Prophet do it.   That is sufficient for me, as how I pray does not dictate my place in hell or heaven, so as long as its Allah who recieves my worship. 

This shows you cannot draw obvious conclusion by the verses of quran alone untill it is explained by the hadith of the prophet saww mentioing his actions. this is what i am trying to convey here.

What do you mean by other whom you follow in saying the prayer other than the prophet saww?

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2 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

W to follow him the exact same way .... as earlier mentioned... where is Isa's sunnah?

The actions and sayings of the prophet saww are well defined in hdith form. Yes we do need to verify the hadith to get true ones in line with quran. Thats what we have to align with the true religion instead of denying the following of the prophet does not mean to follow the sayings and actions of the prophet saww.

Edited by skyweb1987

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2 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

I will include verse 3:32 the verse after too, for context,

Say, "Obey Allah and the Messenger." But if they turn away - then indeed, Allah does not like the disbelievers.

Also, in the verses you showed before, pledging allegiance to the messenger is pledging allegiance to Allah? 

I don't see your point here.  It's hard for me to assume this means follow sunnah in these verses.

قُلْ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ تُحِبُّونَ اللَّـهَ فَاتَّبِعُونِي يُحْبِبْكُمُ اللَّـهُ وَيَغْفِرْ لَكُمْ ذُنُوبَكُمْ ۗ وَاللَّـهُ غَفُورٌ رَحِيمٌ ﴿٣١﴾ قُلْ أَطِيعُوا اللَّـهَ وَالرَّسُولَ ۖ فَإِنْ تَوَلَّوْا فَإِنَّ اللَّـهَ لَا يُحِبُّ الْكَافِرِينَ﴿٣٢﴾ 

Say, [O Muhammad], "If you should love Allah, then follow me, [so] Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. Say, "Obey Allah and the Messenger." But if they turn away - then indeed, Allah does not like the disbelievers.(3:31 -32)

The word fatebeuni has been used at two place in quran: the next verse is given below:

وَلَقَدْ قَالَ لَهُمْ هَارُونُ مِنْ قَبْلُ يَا قَوْمِ إِنَّمَا فُتِنْتُمْ بِهِ ۖ وَإِنَّ رَبَّكُمُ الرَّحْمَـٰنُ فَاتَّبِعُونِي وَأَطِيعُوا أَمْرِي﴿٩٠﴾

And Aaron had already told them before [the return of Moses], "O my people, you are only being tested by it, and indeed, your Lord is the Most Merciful, so follow me and obey my order."(20:90)

I have shown my point in line with the verses of Quran. that the verse for the same word clarifies that for Harun AS follow me has very next to obey my order. and thats what we consider by following the commends of the prophet saww and obeying his sayings.

You do not like to believe in verses of quran  it its your own choice. 

wasalam

Edited by skyweb1987

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9 hours ago, just a muslim said:

you say obeying messenger = obeying Allah. that tis true. anything that the messenger tells as part of religion, we have to obey him and that thas the same status as obeying Allah because the prophet pbuh is not telling us that religious command from himself, but ffrom Allah. in this sense, the quran says that obeying the messenger = obeying Allah. 

however, that does not mean that obeying Allah equals obeying the messenger. meaning by simply following the quran, you can not possibly claim that you are following the messenger. as the quran only consists of what Allah directly commanded us, not that which He indirectly commanded us through the messenger.

The Quran words we have got came through the mouth of the prophet saww. we believe in Quran but some do not like to follow the prophet saww.  Is it not hypocrisy?

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3 hours ago, S.M.H.A. said:
اهْدِنَا الصِّرَاطَ الْمُسْتَقِيمَ {6}

[Pickthal 1:6] Show us the straight path,

صِرَاطَ الَّذِينَ أَنْعَمْتَ عَلَيْهِمْ غَيْرِ الْمَغْضُوبِ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا الضَّالِّينَ {7}

[Pickthal 1:7] The path of those whom Thou hast favoured; Not the (path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray.

 

What is this Straight Path?

1:7 Whose Path? Who are they? How do you Identify them?

Quran 6:151-153

Say, "Come, I will recite what your Lord has prohibited to you. [He commands] that you not associate anything with Him, and to parents, good treatment, and do not kill your children out of poverty; We will provide for you and them. And do not approach immoralities - what is apparent of them and what is concealed. And do not kill the soul which Allah has forbidden [to be killed] except by [legal] right. This has He instructed you that you may use reason. And do not approach the orphan's property except in a way that is best until he reaches maturity. And give full measure and weight in justice. We do not charge any soul except [with that within] its capacity. And when you testify, be just, even if [it concerns] a near relative. And the covenant of Allah fulfill. This has He instructed you that you may remember. And, [moreover], this is My path, which is straight, so follow it; and do not follow [other] ways, for you will be separated from His way. This has He instructed you that you may become righteous.Then We gave Moses the Scripture, making complete [Our favor] upon the one who did good and as a detailed explanation of all things and as guidance and mercy that perhaps in [the matter of] the meeting with their Lord they would believe.And this [Qur'an] is a Book We have revealed [which is] blessed, so follow it and fear Allah that you may receive mercy.

Fatiha 1 - 5

It is You we worship and You we ask for help.Guide us to the straight path -The path of those upon whom You have bestowed favor, not of those who have evoked [Your] anger or of those who are astray.

IAllah in Quran is describing that He Guides us to the Straight path directly through him, It does not say, Muhammad, Guide us to the Straight Path.  Of course Allah specifically says Muhammad is not a guide or warden for us, but you're ignoring those verses.

 

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2 hours ago, S.M.H.A. said:

You would not know who these two were, not written in the Qur'an.

According to above Logic? This would  be a reminder for who?  You and others today 

 

إِنْ تَتُوبَا إِلَى اللَّهِ فَقَدْ صَغَتْ قُلُوبُكُمَا ۖ وَإِنْ تَظَاهَرَا عَلَيْهِ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ هُوَ مَوْلَاهُ وَجِبْرِيلُ وَصَالِحُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ ۖ وَالْمَلَائِكَةُ بَعْدَ ذَٰلِكَ ظَهِيرٌ {4}

[Pickthal 66:4] If ye twain turn unto Allah repentant, (ye have cause to do so) for your hearts desired (the ban); and if ye aid one another against him (Muhammad) then lo! Allah, even He, is his Protecting Friend, and Gabriel and the righteous among the believers; and furthermore the angels are his helpers.

We are saying the same thing unless I'm missing something.   It is a reminder for us, the "HE" and "YOU"  is Allah talking to us in Allah's voice/1st person.

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2 hours ago, skyweb1987 said:

The same has already been replied but you are neglecting .

If the prophet saww is not a guide as per your thinking then Why Allah stw is mentioning in many verses to obey and follow the prophet?

This is the neglecting of the verses.

You have not proven to me that Obeying the Prophet =  Follow Hadith.  Obeying and following are two different concepts logically speaking.  Just because I act like a monkey does not mean I'm commanding you to act like a monkey too.

2 hours ago, skyweb1987 said:

This shows you cannot draw obvious conclusion by the verses of quran alone untill it is explained by the hadith of the prophet saww mentioing his actions. this is what i am trying to convey here.

What do you mean by other whom you follow in saying the prayer other than the prophet saww?

The only way I was taught and pray was the way I learned, the way you learned, is the way you learned.  It may be slightly different or majorly different depending on your perspective of what the Prophet did.  I mean to say many people claim they knew the way the prophet prayed, I listen to one, evaluate it and go with it without giving it heavy scrutiny.  Because how are you going to prove to me whose way is the real perfect way or not?   The Qur'an doesn't even specify or tell us movements.  Why did Allah SWT leave that out? -  Because no matter how we would do it, our intentions would be the same.

2 hours ago, skyweb1987 said:

The actions and sayings of the prophet saww are well defined in hdith form. Yes we do need to verify the hadith to get true ones in line with quran. Thats what we have to align with the true religion instead of denying the following of the prophet does not mean to follow the sayings and actions of the prophet saww.

Allah has not told me as I've demonstrated before to listen to the hadith and teachings of the Prophet.  Over and over and over again I'm telling you using the Qu'ran only, alone, that Allah says it is HIS , Allah'S teachings not the prophet's to be used.  But we are not understanding each other.

2 hours ago, skyweb1987 said:

قُلْ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ تُحِبُّونَ اللَّـهَ فَاتَّبِعُونِي يُحْبِبْكُمُ اللَّـهُ وَيَغْفِرْ لَكُمْ ذُنُوبَكُمْ ۗ وَاللَّـهُ غَفُورٌ رَحِيمٌ ﴿٣١﴾ قُلْ أَطِيعُوا اللَّـهَ وَالرَّسُولَ ۖ فَإِنْ تَوَلَّوْا فَإِنَّ اللَّـهَ لَا يُحِبُّ الْكَافِرِينَ﴿٣٢﴾ 

Say, [O Muhammad], "If you should love Allah, then follow me, [so] Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. Say, "Obey Allah and the Messenger." But if they turn away - then indeed, Allah does not like the disbelievers.(3:31 -32)

The word fatebeuni has been used at two place in quran: the next verse is given below:

وَلَقَدْ قَالَ لَهُمْ هَارُونُ مِنْ قَبْلُ يَا قَوْمِ إِنَّمَا فُتِنْتُمْ بِهِ ۖ وَإِنَّ رَبَّكُمُ الرَّحْمَـٰنُ فَاتَّبِعُونِي وَأَطِيعُوا أَمْرِي﴿٩٠﴾

And Aaron had already told them before [the return of Moses], "O my people, you are only being tested by it, and indeed, your Lord is the Most Merciful, so follow me and obey my order."(20:90)

I have shown my point in line with the verses of Quran. that the verse for the same word clarifies that for Harun AS follow me has very next to obey my order. and thats what we consider by following the commends of the prophet saww and obeying his sayings.

You do not like to believe in verses of quran  it its your own choice. 

wasalam

 

1 hour ago, skyweb1987 said:

The Quran words we have got came through the mouth of the prophet saww. we believe in Quran but some do not like to follow the prophet saww.  Is it not hypocrisy?

No, it is not.   Think about what you just said.  really, please pause and think about it.    Allah's words came through Muhammad's SAW mouth.  Obey Allah = Obey the Messenger.   Allah doesn't control Muhammad like a marionette, except when he commands Muhammad to speak the Quran.

If hadith were meant o be Allahs way then why are they not in the Quran?  When Allah says follow my HADITH as it is the BEST hadith, why isn't the Hadith collected for Shia and Sunni included in it?  Why aren't we memorizing and preserving those Hadith?

Because those are NOT Allah's command.   Allah says Quran is perfect and unchanged and HE will preserve it.  You and I already know the Hadith are not preserved so by LOGICAL INDUCTION you MUST conclude the Hadith ARE NOT ALLAHS WORDS.  NOR HIS TEACHINGS.  This is my entire point.

Just like above, you are confusing your terms.  Obeying Allah and  Messenger does not = follow example/hadith of messenger.   You have not shown me the repercussion of not following the example of the messenger/consequences, you have not shown me that behaving in one way means that is something to be obeyed.

Allah said the Prophet is a good example of CHARACTER to follow, Allah did not say YOU MUST /I COMMAND THEE TO FOLLOW THE PROPHETS EXAMPLE OR ELSE YOU WILL BURN IN HELL AND BE LOST FROM THE STRAIGHT PATH.

The phrase/term "obey" requires a command to precede it.  Syntax, grammar, logic, and other articles of human reasoning/speech I'm using as tools to understand what God is trying to communicate to me.  It seems you're leaving these out.

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17 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

You have not proven to me that Obeying the Prophet =  Follow Hadith.  Obeying and following are two different concepts logically speaking.  Just because I act like a monkey does not mean I'm commanding you to act like a monkey too.

I do not agree with as you  are failed to quote a single verse of quran for the understating that these two terms are different 

Edited by skyweb1987

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26 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

The only way I was taught and pray was the way I learned, the way you learned, is the way you learned.  It may be slightly different or majorly different depending on your perspective of what the Prophet did.  I mean to say many people claim they knew the way the prophet prayed, I listen to one, evaluate it and go with it without giving it heavy scrutiny.  Because how are you going to prove to me whose way is the real perfect way or not?   The Qur'an doesn't even specify or tell us movements.  Why did Allah SWT leave that out? -  Because no matter how we would do it, our intentions would be the same.

I follow the way verified with hadith of the prophet saww  but you dont.

If the quran does not specifies then it is limitation of the quran and we are forced by quran to look the actions of the prophet saww.

Another proof of following and obeying  the prophet through his actions and sayings.

Edited by skyweb1987

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3 hours ago, skyweb1987 said:

قُلْ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ تُحِبُّونَ اللَّـهَ فَاتَّبِعُونِي يُحْبِبْكُمُ اللَّـهُ وَيَغْفِرْ لَكُمْ ذُنُوبَكُمْ ۗ وَاللَّـهُ غَفُورٌ رَحِيمٌ ﴿٣١﴾ قُلْ أَطِيعُوا اللَّـهَ وَالرَّسُولَ ۖ فَإِنْ تَوَلَّوْا فَإِنَّ اللَّـهَ لَا يُحِبُّ الْكَافِرِينَ﴿٣٢﴾ 

Say, [O Muhammad], "If you should love Allah, then follow me, [so] Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. Say, "Obey Allah and the Messenger." But if they turn away - then indeed, Allah does not like the disbelievers.(3:31 -32)

The word fatebeuni has been used at two place in quran: the next verse is given below:

وَلَقَدْ قَالَ لَهُمْ هَارُونُ مِنْ قَبْلُ يَا قَوْمِ إِنَّمَا فُتِنْتُمْ بِهِ ۖ وَإِنَّ رَبَّكُمُ الرَّحْمَـٰنُ فَاتَّبِعُونِي وَأَطِيعُوا أَمْرِي﴿٩٠﴾

And Aaron had already told them before [the return of Moses], "O my people, you are only being tested by it, and indeed, your Lord is the Most Merciful, so follow me and obey my order."(20:90)

I have shown my point in line with the verses of Quran. that the verse for the same word clarifies that for Harun AS follow me has very next to obey my order. and thats what we consider by following the commends of the prophet saww and obeying his sayings.

You do not like to believe in verses of quran  it its your own choice. 

wasalam

Bump 

Edited by skyweb1987

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