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17 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

I pray the way I grew up learning to Pray,  I don't beleive getting caught in the weeds of how to move a certain way (a greater extent hadith) are what is going to make or break my religion or chances of going to heaven or hell.

This means you follow your parents or fore fathers rather in a blind manner,. but does the Quran not mention to avoid following fore fathers?

Edited by skyweb1987

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43 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

If you were paying attention, The first time I mentioned the verse in passing,  I said, "Allah created mankind in their varying ways so we get to know one another as mentioned in Quran."

this is also what you mentioned along with the first time:

16 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

My perspective is that dividing, judging, or condescending towards those who do pray differently and other parts are disregarding the ayah mentioning humans being created to know each other. 

how are these dividing/judging/condescending those who pray differently disregarding the ayah that mentions humans BEING CREATED IN DIFFERENT WAYS to know each other? this is what is inconsistent in your post.

46 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

For clarification, I said ubiquitously understood/known  events.  Events that are validated by 3rd person narrative such as Byzantine or Persian record/accounts of the actions of the Prophet or muslim people.  Events that are not differing from shia, sunni, non-muslim entities  MAY fit this criteria as well.

Is it that difficult if a hadith has a circumstantially contradicting passage,  that one must be skeptical of it? If some hadith tells me a group of people made it from Najd to Medina overnight the next morning when it's  1800 km away? (camels travel 160 km per day when not in caravan and this is a hypothetical example).  This is what I mean by comparing timeline with circumstantial evidence.  Feasibility must be evaluated. 

As aforementioned, I've not a chance to peruse and evaluate every single hadith.  You made a VERY VERY good point.  "How are those events KNOWN" in the end, hadith that do not have contradiction, by Qu'ran or corroborated across all sources, you still have to evaluate the trustworthyness of the chain/narrators, evaluate the chances a trustworthy narrator  made a mistake or misheard with no bad intention, that it was recorded soundly etc. etc.,   

In the end perhaps the best grade a Hadith should get is "Likely true, but we don't know"...  

Gotta find some time and try and investigate some of these hadith.

i think i understand you know. i feel somewhat similar. somewhat. but similar. specially the "likely true, but we dont know" part. i have been down that road. still am on that road, in some ways. anyway, if that is the case, then as the guy above asked, how do you know what the sunnah is? are you inspired by a certain someone from Pakistan? your answer to the sunnah question will clear it up too.

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5 hours ago, skyweb1987 said:

You are sunni and  they follow the book of Allah swt and sunnah of the prophet saww.

In the absence of any strong believe in hadith of the prophet saww how do you follow the sunnah of the  prophet ?

Your claims do not match but these are contradictory.

I am not Sunni.

Sunnis would not even classify me as a Sunnni.  Sunnis don't even understand what being sunni universally means in my opinion.

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5 hours ago, skyweb1987 said:

This means you follow your parents or fore fathers rather in a blind manner,. but does the Quran not mention to avoid following fore fathers?

I don't know what my forefathers did,  I'm half Greek and Pakistani.

I've already fallen away from what my father and his father's have done, but that's irrelevant. 

You're introducing a common atheist argument I've seen; which I would think you should already  understand as a non sequitur. 

The same argument you're making can be used against yourself, if the ithna Ashari twelver Shiism is something you or others procured from your father's ir their fathers and such (as does the same for sunnism), then it stands to reason you are in the same conundrum, isnt it?

In the Quran, the context of following what is said in 2:170 -When it is said to them: “Follow what Allah has sent down.” They say: “Nay! We shall follow what we found our fathers following.” (Would they do that!) even though their fathers did not understand anything nor were they guided.”

Your reasoning/argument I feel is addressed in Allah's first line here, "Follow what Allah swt has sent down..."

I feel I am trying to follow what  Allah has sent down in quran.  In Quran is that we should pray, and wash before prayer, not exactly how we pray.  Ergo my praying the way that I learned from others growing up being mutually exclusive from what Allah has sent down absolves me from the category of following my forefathers blindly.

 

Edited by wmehar2

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18 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

I am not Sunni.

Sunnis would not even classify me as a Sunnni.  Sunnis don't even understand what being sunni universally means in my opinion.

Then at thread the questions were asked to sunnis and your here to defend on the behalf of sunnis. I do not accept your statement rather i consider it a lie. 

Also if you are not a Sunni i suppose even then every Muslim has to follow the prophet sunna as per Quran , I am asking again how do you follow the sunna of the prophet sawwwhen you do not accept the hadith of the prophet ?

Edited by skyweb1987

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8 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

In the Quran, the context of following what is said in 2:170 -When it is said to them: “Follow what Allah has sent down.” They say: “Nay! We shall follow what we found our fathers following.” (Would they do that!) even though their fathers did not understand anything nor were they guided.”

Your reasoning/argument I feel is addressed in Allah's first line here, "Follow what Allah swt has sent down..."

But your are addressing to follow your fore fathers instead of the sunna of the Prophet saww as required by the Quran.

Many verses can be quoted for it. But you are found as hadith rejector so how do you follow the religion ie islam when you dont follow the Prophets saaww?

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5 hours ago, just a muslim said:

how are these dividing/judging/condescending those who pray differently disregarding the ayah that mentions humans BEING CREATED IN DIFFERENT WAYS to know each other? this is what is inconsistent in your post.

Im afraid we are misunderstanding each other. 

If we apply the understanding that Allah has not mentioned  how to pray to him, then it is left to interpretation of an individual to decide.  Then you will see humans in their different backgrounds, lines of thinking manifest what they beleive is a form a worship to God.  

I see now many disparage and criticise others for how they pray and go the lengths of casting takfir on others.  This is the kind of condescension I was talking about.  Im speaking generally not specifically towards yourselves. 

This metaphor extends beyond people praying differently, this ayah in the Quran about us being different from one another to get to know each other.   It can apply to processes, cultural aspects, learning and getting past our differences. 

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4 minutes ago, skyweb1987 said:

But your are addressing to follow your fore fathers instead of the sunna of the Prophet saww as required by the Quran.

Many verses can be quoted for it. But you are found as hadith rejector so how do you follow the religion ie islam when you dont follow the Prophets saaww?

Prove to me which the correct set of Hadiths are what the true representation of the prophet SAW did, and I'll be the first to jump onto your ship.

My argument is that sunnah of the Prophet SAW is lost. But Quran is not. 

If you could see my response, I dont see how I'm following my forefathers at all (especially if they were Sunni) and that wasn't the point I made.  The quran literally said follow what Allah sent down.   It says Muhammad SAW is not a guardian or guide for us, I have shown my argument directly from many passages in my prior responses. 

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11 minutes ago, skyweb1987 said:

Then at thread the questions were asked to sunnis and your here to defend on the behalf of sunnis. I do not accept your statement rather i consider it a lie. 

Also if you are not a Sunni i suppose even then every Muslim has to follow the prophet sunna as per Quran , I am asking again how do you follow the sunna of the prophet sawwwhen you do not accept the hadith of the prophet ?

I grew up in Hanafi Sunni Madhab, if any Sunnis here felt I misrepresented them they can  make the determination for themseleves. Just as  I wouldn't impose such on a Shia' muslim.

Please Show me in Quran where it says to follow Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad or his follow example.

I have made efforts to demonstrate my arguments using quran, the very least please extend the same courtesy for me so I can participate effectively in our discussion. 

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49 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

I grew up in Hanafi Sunni Madhab, if any Sunnis here felt I misrepresented them they can  make the determination for themseleves. Just as  I wouldn't impose such on a Shia' muslim.

Please Show me in Quran where it says to follow Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad or his follow example.

I have made efforts to demonstrate my arguments using quran, the very least please extend the same courtesy for me so I can participate effectively in our discussion. 

quran? what is that? not kidding. serious question.

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1 hour ago, just a muslim said:

quran? what is that? not kidding. serious question.

In layman terms, Quran is Allah's message.  A message without contradiction and could not be  created by man.  

 

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6 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

I grew up in Hanafi Sunni Madhab, if any Sunnis here felt I misrepresented them they can  make the determination for themseleves. Just as  I wouldn't impose such on a Shia' muslim.

Please Show me in Quran where it says to follow Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad or his follow example.

I have made efforts to demonstrate my arguments using quran, the very least please extend the same courtesy for me so I can participate effectively in our discussion. 

Pickthall: Verily in the messenger of Allah ye have a good example for him who looketh unto Allah and the Last Day, and remembereth Allah much.

Yusuf Ali: Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah.

Shakir: Certainly you have in the Messenger of Allah an excellent exemplar for him who hopes in Allah and the latter day and remembers Allah much. (33:21)

Few verses for following the prophet saww:

Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and beware (of evil): if ye do turn back, know ye that it is Our Messenger’s duty to proclaim (the Message) in the clearest manner. (5: 92).

Say: “Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger: but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance.(24: 54).

And whoever obeys Allâh and His Messenger, Allâh shall admit him in the Gardens underneath which rivers flow. (4:13)

And whoever obeys Allâh and His Messenger, he has won a great success. (33:71)

And we sent no messenger, but that he should be obeyed by the leave of Allâh. (4:64)

You should accept whatever the Messenger gives you and abandon whatever he tells you to abandon. Have taqwa of Allah... (Surat al-Hashr: 7)

Many more can be found in Quran like these.

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6 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

Prove to me which the correct set of Hadiths are what the true representation of the prophet SAW did, and I'll be the first to jump onto your ship.

My argument is that sunnah of the Prophet SAW is lost. But Quran is not. 

If you could see my response, I dont see how I'm following my forefathers at all (especially if they were Sunni) and that wasn't the point I made.  The quran literally said follow what Allah sent down.   It says Muhammad SAW is not a guardian or guide for us, I have shown my argument directly from many passages in my prior responses. 

The correct set of hadith does not contradict quran and the other hadith of the prophet saww. The quran does mention that:

3:31. Say (O Muhammad SAW): "If you (really) love Allah then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you of your sins. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

4:13. ...and whosoever obeys Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) will be admitted to Gardens under which rivers flow (in Paradise), to abide therein, and that will be the great success.

24:52. And whosoever obeys Allah and His Messenger (SAW), fears Allah, and keeps his duty (to Him), such are the successful ones.

Those people who reject the Sunnah and claim to "follow" the Qur'an, how would they know:

●      How many rakah to pray for Fajr, Zuhr, 'Asr, Maghrib and 'Isha?

●     What is the method of prayer? etc

Regards

Edited by skyweb1987

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2 hours ago, skyweb1987 said:

Pickthall: Verily in the messenger of Allah ye have a good example for him who looketh unto Allah and the Last Day, and remembereth Allah much.

Yusuf Ali: Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah.

Shakir: Certainly you have in the Messenger of Allah an excellent exemplar for him who hopes in Allah and the latter day and remembers Allah much. (33:21)

Few verses for following the prophet saww:

Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and beware (of evil): if ye do turn back, know ye that it is Our Messenger’s duty to proclaim (the Message) in the clearest manner. (5: 92).

Say: “Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger: but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance.(24: 54).

And whoever obeys Allâh and His Messenger, Allâh shall admit him in the Gardens underneath which rivers flow. (4:13)

And whoever obeys Allâh and His Messenger, he has won a great success. (33:71)

And we sent no messenger, but that he should be obeyed by the leave of Allâh. (4:64)

You should accept whatever the Messenger gives you and abandon whatever he tells you to abandon. Have taqwa of Allah... (Surat al-Hashr: 7)

Many more can be found in Quran like these.

Thank you for providing  these references. 

I'm going address the first verse you mentioned up until the second to last verse first.  33:21,  says the prophet SAW is a good/beatiful example of conduct (the word perfect wasn't used), more importantly NO such stipulation is written that one MUST follow the Prophet's example or fear hellfire nor that he is the only example.

Passages, 5:92, 24:54, 4:13,  33:71, 4:64,  Are all discussing "obeying the messengers commands"  If the prophet SAW behaves a certain way, how is that a command to copy or emulate what he is doing?

One example is, If the prophet SAW prayed tahajjud or tarawee7 in secret so those wouldnt beleive something that is wajib as not wajib, how does he make things, was that a command or not?

Since the Messenger SAW is passed, and traditions disputed upon, where and how do we Obey?  It seems Allahs message in Obeying the Messenger is directly referring to those living  during the time of the passage's revelation.   

One more thing, the punch line that makes everthing I've mentioned prior insubstantial when regarding verses containing "Obey Allah and the Messenger" and this point is heavily reinforced in verse 4:64 and 5:92.  Obeying the messenger = Obeying Allah. "...duty of messenger is to proclaim the message in the clearest manner",  "..Allah sent no messenger but that he obeyed Allah"

Meaning hadith are not Allah's message, Quran is Allah's message.

As for Surah Hashr verse 7, I will provide the complete passage and translation including the 6th and 7th verse:And what Allah restored [of property] to His Messenger from them - you did not spur for it [in an expedition] any horses or camels, but Allah gives His messengers power over whom He wills, and Allah is over all things competent.

And what Allah restored to His Messenger from the people of the towns - it is for Allah and for the Messenger and for [his] near relatives and orphans and the [stranded] traveler - so that it will not be a perpetual distribution among the rich from among you. And whatever the Messenger has given you - take; and what he has forbidden you - refrain from. And fear Allah ; indeed, Allah is severe in penalty.

It seems when you've referenced this verse, it was out of context. Considering the subject of the passages, it is clear Allah is talking about war booty.  It's actually quite convoluted to take this to mean hadith. Especially since this is talking about during his lifetime, which cannot be applied today. Which is why it mentions it from what Allah has restored to the messenger from  people of the towns,  it is for Allah and MESSENGER , near relatives, orphans and stranded travelers.

Of course there is no room for confusion when one understands  obeying Messenger = obeying Allah from Quran, as in this verse Allah entwines his will with the Prophet.  

I implore you to think about this, perhaps you may understand my perspective.  I'm not reading/understanding these passages the same way you are it seems.  I'm quite literally (at least trying to) reading as though I'm a person who has no history of Islam and just Allah's message. (Why should Allah create a Quran that is insufficent for a new person to embrace Islam if no one is around to teach all these conflicting hard to verify Hadith?)  A blank pure state of mind.

Follow clear  verses and follow unclear verses (when how to pray), accept/beleive in all the words. As per 3:7.

Edited by wmehar2

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3 hours ago, skyweb1987 said:

How many rakah to pray for Fajr, Zuhr, 'Asr, Maghrib and 'Isha?

●     What is the method of prayer? etc

see Quran 3:7.

It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah. But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.

People I feel misunderstand this.  following only unclear verses is deadly and grievous and means you seek discord.

The final part says believers follow everything. Unclear and clear together.

chalk that up to my point that there is no one true way to pray.  the messengers before Muhammad SAW had their own way of pray and few of those followers who exist today still try to do so.  Are they wrong?  were they wrong?

The essence of having humans respect each other for their beliefs I feel is highlighted in these verses.  Humans will always be different in how they behave, understand and live from each other, including with respect to how they worship. 

ultimate test is can we be at peace still despite this?  in my opinion.. is that real islam? the real meaning of submission?

of course there exist correct hadith that don't contradict quran, it'd be nice if I knew which they were without exhausting a lifetimes effort.

Edited by wmehar2

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1 hour ago, wmehar2 said:

One example is, If the prophet SAW prayed tahajjud or tarawee7 in secret so those wouldnt beleive something that is wajib as not wajib, how does he make things, was that a command or not?

Since the Messenger SAW is passed, and traditions disputed upon, where and how do we Obey?  It seems Allahs message in Obeying the Messenger is directly referring to those living  during the time of the passage's revelation.   

One more thing, the punch line that makes everthing I've mentioned prior insubstantial when regarding verses containing "Obey Allah and the Messenger" and this point is heavily reinforced in verse 4:64 and 5:92.  Obeying the messenger = Obeying Allah. "...duty of messenger is to proclaim the message in the clearest manner",  "..Allah sent no messenger but that he obeyed Allah"

quran 16:44

And We revealed to you the message that you may make clear to the people what was sent down to them and that they might give thought.

the prophet made the quran clear to us, all mankind. where is that explanation of the quran today? i am not sure about a certain ayahs. the mohkam ones. where did the prophet pbuh leave the explanation for them for me?

 

you say obeying messenger = obeying Allah. that tis true. anything that the messenger tells as part of religion, we have to obey him and that thas the same status as obeying Allah because the prophet pbuh is not telling us that religious command from himself, but ffrom Allah. in this sense, the quran says that obeying the messenger = obeying Allah. 

however, that does not mean that obeying Allah equals obeying the messenger. meaning by simply following the quran, you can not possibly claim that you are following the messenger. as the quran only consists of what Allah directly commanded us, not that which He indirectly commanded us through the messenger.

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im going to leave the "what is the quran" argument for now. for a very brief while.

i agree with you on SOME points, but not the conclusion.

when the quran says that He taught the messenger the Kitab and Hikmah, there is agreement among all scholars that the kitab means quran and the hikmah means sunnah here.

Edited by just a muslim

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8 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

Thank you for providing  these references. 

I'm going address the first verse you mentioned up until the second to last verse first.  33:21,  says the prophet SAW is a good/beatiful example of conduct (the word perfect wasn't used), more importantly NO such stipulation is written that one MUST follow the Prophet's example or fear hellfire nor that he is the only example.

Passages, 5:92, 24:54, 4:13,  33:71, 4:64,  Are all discussing "obeying the messengers commands"  If the prophet SAW behaves a certain way, how is that a command to copy or emulate what he is doing?

In the light of above verses your statements are contradictory. 

Why you are taking alone the verse that  the prophet is a perfect example without considering the other verses for obeying the prophet saww? So  you are clearly denying the  verse that means the prophet is a clear example and  he should be obeyed?

 

8 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

Since the Messenger SAW is passed, and traditions disputed upon, where and how do we Obey?  It seems Allahs message in Obeying the Messenger is directly referring to those living  during the time of the passage's revelation.   

The verse does not state that the prophet should be obeyed only when he was alive.

I like to see the verse of quran clearly mentioning that the prophet could be followed only when he was alive? Is this the believe of sunnis or Muslims as per quran?

This though that the verses of quran were applicable only for those people who were alive in the life of the prophet saww, means the verses of Quran were limited for a specific time but they are for present till  the end of time. 

"If anyone disobeys Allah and His Messenger he is indeed on a clearly wrong path." [Al-Ahzab, 33:36] 
"He that obeys Allah and His Messenger has already attained the great victory." [Al-Ahzab, 33:71].

Lo! those who disbelieve and turn from the way of Allah and oppose the messenger after the guidance hath been manifested unto them, they hurt Allah not a jot, and He will make their actions fruitless. O ye who believe! Obey Allah and obey the messenger, and render not your actions vain. [Qur’an, Surah Muhammad, 47:32-33]

We have sent you bearing witness, bringing good news, and warning so that you might all believe in Allah and His Messenger as well as honor, respect, and glorify Him in the morning and the evening. Those who pledge their allegiance to you pledge allegiance to Allah. Allah`s hand is over their hands. Those who break their pledge only break it against themselves. But as for those who fulfill the contract they have made with Allah, We will give them an immense reward. (Surat al-Fath: 8-10)

Say: “If ye do love Allah, follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins; for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.” [Qur’an, The Family of Imran, 3:31]

Allah and His angels, send blessings on the Prophet: O ye that believe! send ye blessings on him and salute him, with all respect. [Qur’an, The Combined Forces, 33:56]

Say: “O men! I am sent unto you all, as the Messenger of Allah, to Whom belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth: there is no god but He: it is He that giveth both life and death. So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, who believed in Allah and His words: follow him that (so) ye may be guided.” [Qur’an, The Heights, 7:158]

Edited by skyweb1987

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6 hours ago, just a muslim said:

quran 16:44

And We revealed to you the message that you may make clear to the people what was sent down to them and that they might give thought.

the prophet made the quran clear to us, all mankind. where is that explanation of the quran today? i am not sure about a certain ayahs. the mohkam ones. where did the prophet pbuh leave the explanation for them for me?

 

you say obeying messenger = obeying Allah. that tis true. anything that the messenger tells as part of religion, we have to obey him and that thas the same status as obeying Allah because the prophet pbuh is not telling us that religious command from himself, but ffrom Allah. in this sense, the quran says that obeying the messenger = obeying Allah. 

however, that does not mean that obeying Allah equals obeying the messenger. meaning by simply following the quran, you can not possibly claim that you are following the messenger. as the quran only consists of what Allah directly commanded us, not that which He indirectly commanded us through the messenger.

 

6 hours ago, just a muslim said:

im going to leave the "what is the quran" argument for now. for a very brief while.

i agree with you on SOME points, but not the conclusion.

when the quran says that He taught the messenger the Kitab and Hikmah, there is agreement among all scholars that the kitab means quran and the hikmah means sunnah here.

Interesting point there.  I'm gonna try to look at that verse and its preceding verse as well. 

16:43-16:44

And We sent not before you except men to whom We revealed [Our message]. So ask the people of the message if you do not know.

[We sent them] with clear proofs and written ordinances. And We revealed to you the message that you may make clear to the people what was sent down to them and that they might give thought.

------------------

It seems it can be read both ways.  Is delivering the message through Muhammad SAW enough/or sufficient to meet the conditions of clear here? As in The prophet's virtue and character are such that Muhammad SAW is the perfect vessel to deliver the message without distortion?

Or could that clearness be an additional explaination that can be substantiated the in hadith, furthermore does this verse also imply someone is on the path to hellfire of those explanations are not available in clarity in the event no teacher is available to teach, or if over time the hadith/explanations have decayed in authenticity  (of they were not already from beginning, distorted/made up)??

It would be nice if I could find scholarly argument for why that includes hikmah/sunnah,  I will try to find it, and to see if that means sunnah is wajib.

Quran>Hadith it's not sensible to me if they're reasoning is that hadith tells us to follow hadith and quran, I have to hear it from God first. 

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8 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

see Quran 3:7.

chalk that up to my point that there is no one true way to pray.  the messengers before Muhammad SAW had their own way of pray and few of those followers who exist today still try to do so.  Are they wrong?  were they wrong?

Ok I like to see the method of prayer as defined in quran starting from the takbber, Qayam,  Ruku, Sajod, tashud, Slaam in a sequence?

Please mention the verses of quran defining it.

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6 minutes ago, skyweb1987 said:

In the light of above verses your statements are contradictory. 

Why you are taking alone the verse that   the prophet is a perfect example without considering the other verses for obeying the prophet saww? So  your are clearly denying the other verse that means the prophet is a clear example and the other verses state he should be oebeyed?

 

The verse does not state that the prophet should be obeyed only when he was alive.

I like to see the verse of quran clearly mentioning that the prophet could be followed only when he was alive?

This though that the verses of quran were applicable only for those people who were alive in the life of the prophet saww, but the verses of Quran are not limited for a specific time but till the end of time. like:

"If anyone disobeys Allah and His Messenger he is indeed on a clearly wrong path." [Al-Ahzab, 33:36] 
"He that obeys Allah and His Messenger has already attained the great victory." [Al-Ahzab, 33:71].

Lo! those who disbelieve and turn from the way of Allah and oppose the messenger after the guidance hath been manifested unto them, they hurt Allah not a jot, and He will make their actions fruitless. O ye who believe! Obey Allah and obey the messenger, and render not your actions vain. [Qur’an, Surah Muhammad, 47:32-33]

We have sent you bearing witness, bringing good news, and warning so that you might all believe in Allah and His Messenger as well as honor, respect, and glorify Him in the morning and the evening. Those who pledge their allegiance to you pledge allegiance to Allah. Allah`s hand is over their hands. Those who break their pledge only break it against themselves. But as for those who fulfill the contract they have made with Allah, We will give them an immense reward. (Surat al-Fath: 8-10)

 

Have you read later in my response to where i concluded that obeying Allah is = obeying the messenger? 8-10 seems another corroboration directly of that conclusion. I was making a thought process that was incomplete until I reached that conclusion.  Yes, in that particular verse, it was relevant to note that it was talking about decisions the prophet would make alive.

  I also made the point that indeed the Allah states in Muhammadis a good example to follow, but by no means is that a command to follow that example or risk else  risk hell fire.

Obeying and following example are mutually exclusive events, they are independent of each other.   If I act like a monkey, does that mean you are obeying me by acting like one, or even if I act like a mature respectful person?

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1 minute ago, wmehar2 said:

Have you read later in my response to where i concluded that obeying Allah is = obeying the messenger? 8-10 seems another corroboration directly of that conclusion. I was making a thought process that was incomplete until I reached that conclusion.  Yes, in that particular verse, it was relevant to note that it was talking about decisions the prophet would make alive.

The verse does not state that the prophet should be obeyed only when he was alive.

I like to see the verse of quran clearly mentioning that the prophet could be followed only when he was alive? Is this the believe of sunnis or Muslims as per quran?

This though that the verses of quran were applicable only for those people who were alive in the life of the prophet saww, means the verses of Quran were limited for a specific time but they are for present till  the end of time. 

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5 minutes ago, skyweb1987 said:

Ok I like to see the method of prayer as defined in quran starting from the takbber, Qayam,  Ruku, Sajod, tashud, Slaam in a sequence?

Please mention the verses of quran defining it.

I'm confused. 

Where have I mentioned if whether those items are in there or not?

Or are you saying that those  prayer methods are so critically vital to follow but they are not in the Quran and we need to do them?

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8 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

of course there exist correct hadith that don't contradict quran, it'd be nice if I knew which they were without exhausting a lifetimes effort.

The prophet has said in his traditions that he has left two weighty things one is book of Allah and the second is sunna of the prophet (Sunni sources )

 Also the same hadith also mention the two weighty things as book of Allah and his Ahl albayat ie progeny of the prophet saww. (Mu[Edited Out]er)

Thus making it obvious tha the progeny should be followed leading to the true sunna of the prophet saww.

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1 minute ago, skyweb1987 said:

The verse does not state that the prophet should be obeyed only when he was alive.

I like to see the verse of quran clearly mentioning that the prophet could be followed only when he was alive? Is this the believe of sunnis or Muslims as per quran?

This though that the verses of quran were applicable only for those people who were alive in the life of the prophet saww, means the verses of Quran were limited for a specific time but they are for present till  the end of time. 

If obeying Allah = obeying the messenger,  then these points are irrelevant. 

If Allah is never dead and obeying Allah = obeying messenger, then it stands to reason obeying the messenger extends beyond his lifetime.  

I was thinking this process out and  then making my conclusion,  Perhaps I should have made that more clear.

Hadith, we all know are not 100% reliable, may contradict itself and quran, so I take obeying Allah and obeying messenger as obeying Quran

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