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1 hour ago, wmehar2 said:

One doesn't need authority in a place that needs only reason.   I disagree with your suggestion.

You can disagree or counter more, I've made my points and see no need to add towards it.

I disagree with your so called reason as there is no authority with you  to say correct or incorrect a question posed in any thread.

Thats fine you are accepting my suggestion.

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1 hour ago, Faruk said:

Salam, 

It's a long story but unfortunately to accept unjust rulership is not in line with  the Quran nor with the Ahl al-Bayt a.s. 

 Unless you believe imam Hussain a.s. was wrong. 

What's the use of an Islamic State that despises the Ahl al-Bayt a.s., the majority of the Forerunners, the Hufaz of the Quran and the sanctity of al-Haramayn anyway? 

That's not an Islamic State. It's merely a political entity with an islamic outlook.

 

walaikumasalaam,

I don't beleive Imam Hussein AS was wrong  as he fought for what he knew is right,

But I perceive it wrong to attribute  a black and white screen to the situation against those who didn't help when considering complex circumstances we dont understand due to lack of valid historical clarity.  much less raise contention with people today and apply that screen. 

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20 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

walaikumasalaam,

I don't beleive Imam Hussein AS was wrong  as he fought for what he knew is right,

The reasonably fair words 

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23 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

I don't beleive Imam Hussein AS was wrong  as he fought for what he knew is right,

Salam brother,

Do you believe Imam Husayn made any mistakes in all events that led to his martyrdom? I only ask because you say "he fought for what he knew was right".

I have muslims friends from schools other than the school of Ahlulbayt who believe Imam Husayn was wronged but also believe he was a rebel (astaghfirullah) or it was his fault for not listening to advice from many friends and wayfarers along the way from Medina to Makka to Karbala.

Personally I believe he made the correct decision at every step and new he had a pre-determined fate ahead of him with the burden of saving Islam at any cost due to the return and spread of ignorance after the Prophet's death.

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24 minutes ago, ServantOfTheOne said:

Salam brother,

Do you believe Imam Husayn made any mistakes in all events that led to his martyrdom? I only ask because you say "he fought for what he knew was right".

I have muslims friends from schools other than the school of Ahlulbayt who believe Imam Husayn was wronged but also believe he was a rebel (astaghfirullah) or it was his fault for not listening to advice from many friends and wayfarers along the way from Medina to Makka to Karbala.

Personally I believe he made the correct decision at every step and new he had a pre-determined fate ahead of him with the burden of saving Islam at any cost due to the return and spread of ignorance after the Prophet's death.

Walaikumasalaam,

If Imam Hussein AS does not regret his actions, then  how could it be a mistake?

Please define mistake.   Does it mean a sin or action that displeased God,  or something in terms of Imam Hussein AS would still be alive and had a chance to rally people to rebel?

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2 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

Walaikumasalaam,

If Imam Hussein AS does not regret his actions, then  how could it be a mistake?

Please define mistake.   Does it mean a sin or action that displeased God,  or something in terms of Imam Hussein AS would still be alive and had a chance to rally people to rebel?

I was asking for your own personal opinion. Regardless of what the Imam chose to do, do you think he should have done it differently. And if so, then why?

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6 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

Walaikumasalaam,

If Imam Hussein AS does not regret his actions, then  how could it be a mistake?

Please define mistake.   Does it mean a sin or action that displeased God,  or something in terms of Imam Hussein AS would still be alive and had a chance to rally people to rebel?

Salam,

How you put it is as if it was a subjective truth or ijtihad matter from imam Hussain a.s. himself which not everyone was obliged to support.

Imam Hussain a.s. was with Haq and Haq was with imam Hussain a.s.

And Haq, my dear brother is not a personal thing.

Imam Hussain a.s. made a statement which we are reminded of at least 5 times a day in the last part of salaat.

Edited by Faruk

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12 minutes ago, Faruk said:

Salam,

How you put it is as if it was a subjective truth or ijtihad matter from imam Hussain a.s. himself which not everyone was obliged to support.

Imam Hussain a.s. was with Haq and Haq was with imam Hussain a.s.

And Haq, my dear brother is not a personal thing.

Imam Hussain a.s. made a statement which we are reminded of at least 5 times a day in the last part of salaat.

 

14 minutes ago, ServantOfTheOne said:

I was asking for your own personal opinion. Regardless of what the Imam chose to do, do you think he should have done it differently. And if so, then why?

Perhaps, my view is that I can't say who is on the Haq because I do not know for certain the events that transpired back then.

I can with 100% certainty tell you what happened to Imam Hussein AS was NOT haq and in fact evil in the sense what Shaytaan wanted has transpired. However nothing happens without God's will.  I'll elaborate on this further.

I disagree with the notion that haq is personal.

For instance,  person A, person B, person C, share a land together, they are brothers. A and B are pious wise leaders if whom are passive and adverse to war without reason.

Person A and Person B recieve letters from each other respectively.  In these letters contains disparaging remarks and declarations of ownership of land.   However little do A and B know, person C orchestrated the writing of the letters plotting to pit A and B against each other to assume total ownership.

Person C sends troops or men posed as group A's and B's men to start disputes.  Thus the people of A and B hate each other and start skirmishing on their own with little to no intervention. 

Now A and B can never trust each other and feel the need to defend themselves from one another as in war, there are different rules when it comes to survival.

Are A and B on the Haq because of their intentions are well placed, or are they not on the Haq?

What is the best course of action?  There is more than one path to Allah; us being human beings, we have complexities forced into us that challenge this notion of "haq" being a single defined point.

Perhaps we need to define haq,  does being on the Haq mean you are in a blameless position and were well intentioned, trying to do what is right given the knowledge you have.

Does it mean The one and only correct decision that leaves all others blame worthy for not being on it?

A situation where hidden hypocrites sow dissention, fear, and threat to life distorts Haq to an incomprehensible level. 

We as human beings are always limited by what we don't know.  This is my opinion. 

I don't believe the Imam AS should have done anything different, the way things happened were the best possible outcome for I believe nothing happens without the will of God.  

The forces of Good and bad contrast each other.  Like in science,  a volcanic eruption obliterating the vicinity creates fertile land for life.  Each violent or sad event brings a situation where one can redeem themselves or help someone else to demonstrate their moral fiber.  That is how human beings become the best (and the worst) they can possibly be.

Without these axiomatic rules governing us, then human beings cease being human (freewill is what defines us).  Freewill is the itjihad, subjectivity of human perspective.  Every detail and context must be taken into account in order to for us to give a judgement, assessment/ruling concerning the "haq".

Without these details, I feel its actually morally wrong to say or conclude anything.  It is like the saying,  "it is better to know nothing about something, than to know little about something".  Abiding by that recurring theme that we can never know what we don't know, along with the Qur'an that states we all should validate information before anything. 

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14 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

 

Perhaps, my view is that I can't say who is on the Haq because I do not know for certain the events that transpired back then.

 

You should as the prominent position of the Ahl al-Bayt a.s. and it's exclusive connection with the Prophet s.a.w.a.s. and the Book of Allah is crystal clear and mentioned in the traditions of all sects.

 

Edited by Faruk

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Salaam @wmehar2,

 

Your scenario is missing major elements of consideration. The arbitrary definitions of persons A, B and C are irrelevant as they do not draw on what makes the situation a special circumstance.

Imam Husayn was the son of Imam Ali and Sayeda Fatima. Imam Ali was described as Nafs of Rasool in the Quran. There is a well known Hadeeth in all sects which says anyone who goes against Imam Ali is a hypocrite. There is another Hadeeth where the prophet says "I am from Husayn and Husayn is from me". Another one that says "Fatima is a part of me, whoever hurt her, hurts me; whoever hurts me, hurts Allah".

All these Hadeeths should tell you that the people did not follow what the Prophet told them. He repeatedly reminded them how they should treat his family. So when someone goes against their family, it becomes a situation of absolute Baatil (opposite of Haq).

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23 minutes ago, ServantOfTheOne said:

Salaam @wmehar2,

 

Your scenario is missing major elements of consideration. The arbitrary definitions of persons A, B and C are irrelevant as they do not draw on what makes the situation a special circumstance.

Imam Husayn was the son of Imam Ali and Sayeda Fatima. Imam Ali was described as Nafs of Rasool in the Quran. There is a well known Hadeeth in all sects which says anyone who goes against Imam Ali is a hypocrite. There is another Hadeeth where the prophet says "I am from Husayn and Husayn is from me". Another one that says "Fatima is a part of me, whoever hurt her, hurts me; whoever hurts me, hurts Allah".

All these Hadeeths should tell you that the people did not follow what the Prophet told them. He repeatedly reminded them how they should treat his family. So when someone goes against their family, it becomes a situation of absolute Baatil (opposite of Haq).

You may assume from me that I'm a direct critic of Hadith and their authenticity. 

Hadith tell me I shouldn't blindly believe them, Sahih, Musnad, Dhaif, etc.

These are my personal beliefs brother. 

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36 minutes ago, Faruk said:

You should as the prominent position of the Ahl al-Bayt a.s. and it's exclusive connection with the Prophet s.a.w.a.s. and the Book of Allah is crystal clear and mentioned in the traditions of all sects.

 

As aforementioned in my recent correspondence with @ServantOfTheOne I'm a critic and skeptic of traditions seen in Hadith. 

I see them as one of the largest contributors to the world's current sad state of Islamic affairs and the single most point of incoherence.   They are what fits the moulding I've just described. 

You have an array of people existing today and before with right intentions but a poor forward path.  Adverse selection from among those who have righteous hearts but misguided information.

The best of lies begin within truths. 

These are my opinions.  Certainly there are true narrations and traditions of the Prophet SAW, but Allah swt tells me in Quran and commands Muhammad SAW That Quran is the best of all Hadith, and Muhammad SAW is not to provide naught but Allah's message.

Below are excerpts from a prior discussion of mine on the forum:

 

Quran 88:21-22  So remind, [O Muhammad]; you are only a reminder.

Sahih International: You are not over them a controller.

Pickthall: Thou art not at all a warder over them.

Yusuf Ali: Thou art not one to manage (men's) affairs.

Shakir: You are not a watcher over them;

Muhammad Sarwar: You do not have full control over them.

Mohsin Khan: You are not a dictator over them.

Arberry: thou art not charged to oversee them.

Quran 42:6  And as for those who choose protecting friends beside Him, Allah is Warden over them, and thou art in no wise a guardian over them.

Quran 2:272 Not upon you, [O Muhammad], is [responsibility for] their guidance, but Allah guides whom He wills. And whatever good you [believers] spend is for yourselves, and you do not spend except seeking the countenance of Allah. And whatever you spend of good - it will be fully repaid to you, and you will not be wronged.

-NOT Sahaba or Ahlul Bayt.-

Quran 24:54 Say, "Obey Allah and obey the Messenger; but if you turn away - then upon him is only that [duty] with which he has been charged, and upon you is that with which you have been charged. And if you obey him, you will be [rightly] guided. And there is not upon the Messenger except the [responsibility for] clear notification."

Quran 3:144 Muhammad is not but a messenger.[Other] messengers have passed on before him. So if he was to die or be killed, would you turn back on your heels [to unbelief]? And he who turns back on his heels will never harm Allah at all; but Allah will reward the grateful.

     The above Quran verses make it abundantly clear, any and all Hadith that we try and use in addition to the Qur'an, are baseless, and even IF the Prophet SAW did give hadith, Allah is telling us not to use it, probably because it's  nearly entirely corrupt by those who came after,  The below passages confirm it.

 

[Quran 7:185] Have they not looked at the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all the things God has created? Does it ever occur to them that the end of their life may be near? Which HADITH, besides this (Quran) do they believe in?

[Quran 31:6] Among the people, there are those who uphold baseless HADITH, and thus divert others from the path of God without knowledge, and take it in vain. These have incurred a shameful retribution.

[Quran 39:23] God has revealed herein the BEST HADITH; a book that is consistent and points out both ways (to heaven and hell). The skins of those who reverence their Lord cringe therefrom, then their skins and their hearts soften up for God's message. Such is God's guidance; he bestows it upon whomever He wills. As for those sent astray by God, nothing can guide them.

[Quran 45:6] These are God's revelations (Quran) that we recite to you truthfully. In which HADITH other than God and His revelations do they believe?

[Quran 52:34] Let them produce a HADITH like this (Quran) if they are truthful.

[Quran 68:44] Therefore, let Me deal with those who reject this HADITH(Quran); we will lead them on whence they never perceive.

[Quran 77:50] Which HADITH other than this do they uphold?

                                     Why did God permitted these so called Hadiths ? The answer is in next verse.

[Quran 6:112-113] We have permitted the enemies of every prophet - human and jinn devils - to inspire in each other FANCY WORDS , in order to deceive. Had your Lord willed, they would not have done it. You shall disregard them and their FABRICATIONS. This is to let the minds of those who do not believe in the Hereafter listen to such FABRICATIONS, and accept them, and thus expose their real convictions.

 

Quran [17:46]  We place veils over their hearts to prevent them from understanding it and deafness in their ears, and when you commemorate your Lord in the Quran alone they turn their backs and run away in aversion.

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11 minutes ago, wmehar2 said:

 

How do you perform prayer? Is salawat included? And what are the wordings of your salawat?

 

Edited by Faruk

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1 hour ago, wmehar2 said:

I see them as one of the largest contributors to the world's current sad state of Islamic affairs and the single most point of incoherence.   They are what fits the moulding I've just described. 

If you have no hadeeth to back up your understanding of the Quran, you will be equally lost. The Quran on its own is not enough. Otherwise there is no point in Imam Ali and his progeny. They can just be political rulers and everyone will be in harmony.

You have a choice to either reconcile yourself with a Marja or another Islamic leader of whatever sect, OR you adhere yourself to a code where there is an acceptable number of hadeeths which make up your deen. I have a family member who is extremely sceptic of hadeeth, so much so that he questions basic things that are well known and practiced over centuries.

I am not asking you to follow blindly, but I ask you to keep an open mind do not be too cynical in your approach or else you will lose a lot of what being muslim worth it.

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Well if he's really honest then we can't be sure about who the companion in the cave was. Is it fair to say it was Abu Bakr r.a. as his name is not mentioned in Quran?

Edited by Faruk

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3 hours ago, Faruk said:

How do you perform prayer? Is salawat included? And what are the wordings of your salawat?

 

I pray the way I grew up learning to Pray,  I don't beleive getting caught in the weeds of how to move a certain way (a greater extent hadith) are what is going to make or break my religion or chances of going to heaven or hell.

I dont feel others praying differently than I (in their many variations) poses a problem or issue as the fundamental intention of prayers are identical/sufficient enough.

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2 hours ago, just a muslim said:

sorry to barge in like this but are you a hadith rejector? a quran only muslim? quranist? of the quraniyyoon? i would look forward to talk to one if you are.

No, I wouldn't emphatically deny them all, I mentioned earlier that I'm certain there are true traditions of the Prophet that exist, however.

I find myself coinciding with on many points but I hate the idea of a label.

Allah created mankind in their varying ways so we get to know one another as mentioned in Quran.

The exact way to pray/wudu and other things absent the hadith are left to interpretation, subjectivity as pointed out before.

I position the latter portion ayah 4:59,  " if you beleive in Allah and the last day, that is the best result."  In the absence of a universal authority/messenger.

My perspective is that dividing, judging, or condescending towards those who do pray differently and other parts are disregarding the ayah mentioning humans being created to know each other. 

we can all have great discussions about why we pray the way we do, but the second we fight or say, "what you're doing isnt real islam",  only then we start falling into shaytaans trap.

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2 hours ago, ServantOfTheOne said:

If you have no hadeeth to back up your understanding of the Quran, you will be equally lost. The Quran on its own is not enough. Otherwise there is no point in Imam Ali and his progeny. They can just be political rulers and everyone will be in harmony.

You have a choice to either reconcile yourself with a Marja or another Islamic leader of whatever sect, OR you adhere yourself to a code where there is an acceptable number of hadeeths which make up your deen. I have a family member who is extremely sceptic of hadeeth, so much so that he questions basic things that are well known and practiced over centuries.

I am not asking you to follow blindly, but I ask you to keep an open mind do not be too cynical in your approach or else you will lose a lot of what being muslim worth it.

In addition My prior post that ended with Quranic quotes to support my line of thinking, I'll elaborate further.

I understand your point, however my instincts tell me,  if all hadith are burned, corrupted, and qurans as well, what do we have left?

What significance is there to having an opinion about abu bakrs khilafa, or whomever?

Allah promises us in the Quran he will preserve His message, No such promise or guarantee is given for Hadith. 

I agree certain Hadith many can reason are indisputably authentic given effort of validation.

I think we may not be Giving Allah SWT enough credit.  Especially considering the verses I've provided.  If by talking to me or getting to know me you feel (outside of you're acknowledging I am skeptical of Hadith) I'm a muslim lacking in substance, we can have the conversation to triangulate why that could be.

It should go without saying, however, That i'll never be 100%  stuck in how I see things, its a continuous  improvement and self reflective process. (its how I wound up here to begin with).

 I feel its important to communicate these ideas and provoke self introspective thinking.  I feel i shouldn't pose myself as do other sects of Islam as being on the true haqq nor that i have the right answers to everything.  I dont want that way of seeing things ever.

If others like to, thats fine.  I emphasize these are my opinions of me only.

Below are my arguments from Quran to disagree with your statement "quran alone isnt enough ":

Quran 39:23] God has revealed herein the BEST HADITH; a book that is consistent and points out both ways (to heaven and hell). The skins of those who reverence their Lord cringe therefrom, then their skins and their hearts soften up for God's message. Such is God's guidance; he bestows it upon whomever He wills. As for those sent astray by God, nothing can guide them.

[Quran 45:6] These are God's revelations (Quran) that we recite to you truthfully. In which HADITH other than God and His revelations do they believe?

[Quran 52:34] Let them produce a HADITH like this (Quran) if they are truthful.

[Quran 68:44] Therefore, let Me deal with those who reject this HADITH(Quran); we will lead them on whence they never perceive.

[Quran 77:50] Which HADITH other than this do they uphold?

Edited by wmehar2

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4 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

No, I wouldn't emphatically deny them all, I mentioned earlier that I'm certain there are true traditions of the Prophet that exist, however.

I find myself coinciding with on many points but I hate the idea of a label.

Allah created mankind in their varying ways so we get to know one another as mentioned in Quran.

The exact way to pray/wudu and other things absent the hadith are left to interpretation, subjectivity as pointed out before.

I position the latter portion ayah 4:59,  " if you beleive in Allah and the last day, that is the best result."  In the absence of a universal authority/messenger.

My perspective is that dividing, judging, or condescending towards those who do pray differently and other parts are disregarding the ayah mentioning humans being created to know each other. 

we can all have great discussions about why we pray the way we do, but the second we fight or say, "what you're doing isnt real islam",  only then we start falling into shaytaans trap.

1. which ayah mentions humans being created to know each other? out of curiosity.

2. so, you say you believe there are true narrations. how do you judge which ones are true and which arent?

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2 minutes ago, just a muslim said:

1. which ayah mentions humans being created to know each other? out of curiosity.

2. so, you say you believe there are true narrations. how do you judge which ones are true and which arent?

49:13,

O mankind, We have created you male and female, and appointed you races and tribes, that you may know one another. Surely the noblest among you in the sight of God is the most godfearing of you. God is All-knowing, All-aware

I don't have a solution that determines an authentic hadith from a made up one.  Nor Have I been able to go through every single bit of hadith and give my personal verdict on them.

Though I feel there are first basics we can use from a logical standpoint.  First criteria, does it contradict the Qur'an? Next, Does it conflict /contradict proven/ubiquitously known timelines?  Does it make logical sense given context of that timeline - Can it contradict known events circumstantially (for example,  how likely is a message or letter to deliver information given that horses/camels were transportation in a desert setting etc. etc.

 

There are many complexities further to consider.

One example is just because a hadith may not contradict the Quran, does not mean it was not fabricated.  (e.g., say a hadith mentioned that Islam forbids pork or that we share a single Ancestor Adam as reference to an event that requires allusion to Quran; it could be the event itself was fabricated and used a verse of Quran to give credibiltiy that the event transpired)

Others to look at in particular if they seem to have a recurring theme of giving merits to individuals known to take contaversial actions (like Muawiya and his snafu, etc.) These look as though they were conceived to bring legitimancy to controversial figures as a means of corruption.  Changing history.

I could go on and on and on...

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7 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

I pray the way I grew up learning to Pray,  I don't beleive getting caught in the weeds of how to move a certain way (a greater extent hadith) are what is going to make or break my religion or chances of going to heaven or hell.

I dont feel others praying differently than I (in their many variations) poses a problem or issue as the fundamental intention of prayers are identical/sufficient enough.

Well in every madhab and sect the salawat is included. Is the salawat also included in your salawat and what are its wordings?

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2 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

49:13,

O mankind, We have created you male and female, and appointed you races and tribes, that you may know one another. Surely the noblest among you in the sight of God is the most godfearing of you. God is All-knowing, All-aware

51:56

i did not create the jinn and mankind except so that they worship me. 

 

does this mean there is a contradiction in the quran? no. because the verse you quoted and what you are claiming from it are two different things. 

the ayah says Allah created us male and female. and as different races and different tribes. the reason for creating us in such a different manner is given in the following phrase. "so that you may know each other". this is not the reason for creating us in the first place. you would know that had you known a little bit of arabic and checked the ayah in arabic, not its translation. even if you dont know arabic, nobody would come to your understanding as that is incorrect. the obvious meaning and reason is the differences between people, not the actual creating itself.

2 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

Does it make logical sense given context of that timeline - Can it contradict known events circumstantially

how are those events KNOWN? circumstantially? really? is that your best way of defending historical "knowledge"? i could also go on and on to destroy your arguments.

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7 hours ago, just a muslim said:

51:56

i did not create the jinn and mankind except so that they worship me. 

 

does this mean there is a contradiction in the quran? no. because the verse you quoted and what you are claiming from it are two different things. 

the ayah says Allah created us male and female. and as different races and different tribes. the reason for creating us in such a different manner is given in the following phrase. "so that you may know each other". this is not the reason for creating us in the first place. you would know that had you known a little bit of arabic and checked the ayah in arabic, not its translation. even if you dont know arabic, nobody would come to your understanding as that is incorrect. the obvious meaning and reason is the differences between people, not the actual creating itself.

how are those events KNOWN? circumstantially? really? is that your best way of defending historical "knowledge"? i could also go on and on to destroy your arguments.

If you were paying attention, The first time I mentioned the verse in passing,  I said, "Allah created mankind in their varying ways so we get to know one another as mentioned in Quran."

"In varying ways", I'm well aware of the distinction between creating us for a purpose (to worship), and creating us in a way we vary from each other (sonwe get to know each other) Thank you anyway for bringing it up.

For clarification, I said ubiquitously understood/known  events.  Events that are validated by 3rd person narrative such as Byzantine or Persian record/accounts of the actions of the Prophet or muslim people.  Events that are not differing from shia, sunni, non-muslim entities  MAY fit this criteria as well.

Are you sure you're understanding me?  It seems as though you're peering for holes in my words rather thsn understand  them... :/

Is it that difficult if a hadith has a circumstantially contradicting passage,  that one must be skeptical of it? If some hadith tells me a group of people made it from Najd to Medina overnight the next morning when it's  1800 km away? (camels travel 160 km per day when not in caravan and this is a hypothetical example).  This is what I mean by comparing timeline with circumstantial evidence.  Feasibility must be evaluated. 

  Allah said in Quran that he has pointed the way to heaven and hell in 39:23,  I pray  my skepticism won't pervert my path away from one that is righteous, at least up until now.

As aforementioned, I've not a chance to peruse and evaluate every single hadith.  You made a VERY VERY good point.  "How are those events KNOWN" in the end, hadith that do not have contradiction, by Qu'ran or corroborated across all sources, you still have to evaluate the trustworthyness of the chain/narrators, evaluate the chances a trustworthy narrator  made a mistake or misheard with no bad intention, that it was recorded soundly etc. etc.,   

In the end perhaps the best grade a Hadith should get is "Likely true, but we don't know"...  

Gotta find some time and try and investigate some of these hadith.

Edited by wmehar2

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21 hours ago, wmehar2 said:

You may assume from me that I'm a direct critic of Hadith and their authenticity. 

Hadith tell me I shouldn't blindly believe them, Sahih, Musnad, Dhaif, etc.

These are my personal beliefs brother. 

You are sunni and  they follow the book of Allah swt and sunnah of the prophet saww.

In the absence of any strong believe in hadith of the prophet saww how do you follow the sunnah of the  prophet ?

Your claims do not match but these are contradictory.

Edited by skyweb1987

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