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Question to Sunnies

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I am following a youtube lecture on the 12 Shia Imams by Sayed Moustafa aAl-Qazwini. He is presenting his lectures in a calm and sympathetic way, and he is Shiite. Sayed says Tafsirs say Muhammed named his followers, the 12 infallible Shia Imams, of which many were not even born before he died. He also say Sunnies accept these tafsirs to be genuine. If this is correct, why did Sunnies not follow Muhammeds command?

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Most Sunnis are ignorant, they don't know about the narrations in their books that prove the Shi'a view of Islam. On the other hand some of them are hypocrites, they have knowledge of such narrations and know Shi'a Islam is with the truth, but they reject it.

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Yet they (sunnis) always come up most of the times in this forum with the name argument alone to falsely consider that Imam Ali As named his sons on the names of the caliphs. 

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As-Salamu Alaykum Wa Rahmatullah,

I am new here and I am a Sunni, with regards to your question, it is our position (not the La-Madhabiyeen/Wahhabiyah) the 12 Qurya[Edited Out]e Imams referred to in our scriptures do not refer to worldly rulings,rather the Imams of the Ahlul Bayt are the imams of the Batin (inner realities),quite often in our hadiths we see the Prophet mentioning his descendants being oppressed, and that their true inheritance is in the Akhira, not Dunyawi rulers. 

And before you lambaste me, I am a 42nd descendent of Hussein ibn Ali (a.s).

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Hi Hassan and Skyweb

Sayed also say Sunnies are ignorant. I dont think they agree, thats why I ask Sunnies why they do not obey the Prophet if he really said who his 12 followers should be.

Maybe you can publish the fatwas Sayed reffers to that give the names of these 12 imams. I have not been able to find them myself.

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6 hours ago, andres said:

Hi Hassan and Skyweb

Sayed also say Sunnies are ignorant. I dont think they agree, thats why I ask Sunnies why they do not obey the Prophet if he really said who his 12 followers should be.

Maybe you can publish the fatwas Sayed reffers to that give the names of these 12 imams. I have not been able to find them myself.

You mean the narrations in ours and their hadith books? Just look at one of my older post here, I posted some: http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235051943-why-i-became-muslim-sunni/?do=findComment&comment=3078573 

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Thank you Hassan

Thanks for info. So Sunni and Shia both believe the Tafsirs in which Muhammed predicts the names of his 12 successors. There is of course a reason that Sunnies does not obey this Tafsir. If wikipedia is correct 15% of Shias do not either. If Sunnies also know and believe these Tafsirs, the reasons for not following them cannot be due to ignorance. What are the reasons?  

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16 hours ago, andres said:

Thank you Hassan

Thanks for info. So Sunni and Shia both believe the Tafsirs in which Muhammed predicts the names of his 12 successors. There is of course a reason that Sunnies does not obey this Tafsir. If wikipedia is correct 15% of Shias do not either. If Sunnies also know and believe these Tafsirs, the reasons for not following them cannot be due to ignorance. What are the reasons?  

No, the Sunnis do not believe in the hadiths that mention the 12 names, they think they are fabrications even though it's written in their books and ours. Why don't they believe them? Because if they do, their entire sect and ideology will collapse and crumble. The sad part is, the majority of the Sunni world are not familiar of what is written in their books, all they are fed is nonsense and lies from their scholars in their mosques while the truth is concealed from them. That's why you see thousands and thousands of Sunnis converting to Shi'ism every year around the world when they realize the truth, and extremely insignificant amount of Shi'as converting to Sunnism. That's why Sunnism is a dying sect (it actually is) while Shi'ism grows larger and larger every year, mainly from Sunnis and people of other religions converting to it.

Edited by Hassan-

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Hi Hassan

So Sunnies and Shias have the same collection of Tafsirs but different Hadiths? 

And so do the Shias that do not believe in the 12 Imams?

Edited by andres

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On 10/9/2017 at 12:00 AM, Al Ishaaqi said:

As-Salamu Alaykum Wa Rahmatullah,

I am new here and I am a Sunni, with regards to your question, it is our position (not the La-Madhabiyeen/Wahhabiyah) the 12 Qurya[Edited Out]e Imams referred to in our scriptures do not refer to worldly rulings,rather the Imams of the Ahlul Bayt are the imams of the Batin (inner realities),quite often in our hadiths we see the Prophet mentioning his descendants being oppressed, and that their true inheritance is in the Akhira, not Dunyawi rulers. 

And before you lambaste me, I am a 42nd descendent of Hussein ibn Ali (a.s).

Imam of the Batin is most worthy to be worldly rulers. This is the mistake made by Governor of Madina when he summoned Imam Hussain (a.s) in his house after death of Muawvia (l.a). When he informed Imam a.s about the death of Muawvia (l.a), he told him about Yazeed (l.a) that Yazeed (l.a) wants Imam a.s to give bayah to him (l.a). When imam a.s should his unwillingness to do so, the Governor said "You are a light for the people, a guide for the Muslims in Madina. People seek advice from you, you teach them and preach about Islam to them.What you have to do with Khilafah?"

Imam a.s replied "Why do you believe that we are not for Khilafah? Who more worth of Khilafah is than us? Do you believe that a drinker and bad character man like Yazeed l.a is worthy to Khilafah and we the family of Prophet pubh are not?"

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16 hours ago, andres said:

Hi Hassan

So Sunnies and Shias have the same collection of Tafsirs but different Hadiths? 

And so do the Shias that do not believe in the 12 Imams?

Tafsirs are commentaries of the quran or hadiths, either from infallible individuals (The Prophet and his household) or fallible individuals (companions or scholars). Many of our tafsirs differ from theirs, and many are the same. 

I don't know too much about non-twelver Shi'as.

Edited by Hassan-

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On 10/9/2017 at 6:13 AM, Hassan- said:

You mean the narrations in ours and their hadith books? Just look at one of my older post here, I posted some: http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235051943-why-i-became-muslim-sunni/?do=findComment&comment=3078573 

HERE is a brief response on such narrations with names of Imams.

I am posting this again as my previous post was removed. WHY?

Its just a link. I am not making this thread look ugly by doing long copy pastes.

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7 hours ago, Hassan- said:

Tafsirs are commentaries of the quran or hadiths, either from infallible individuals (The Prophet and his household) or fallible individuals (companions or scholars). Many of our tafsirs differ from theirs, and many are the same. 

I don't know too much about non-twelver Shi'as.

So Muslims differ on how to interpret the Hadiths, but do the collections of Hadits differ between Shias and Sunnies? When were the Hadiths written?

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2 hours ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

HERE is a brief response on such narrations with names of Imams.

I am posting this again as my previous post was removed. WHY?

Its just a link. I am not making this thread look ugly by doing long copy pastes.

Thanks for the link. That the knowledge of the names of the 12 Imams first occured after they existed is one method used by historians to date dokuments. To prove they were predicted or not as oral tradition before that is not possible. I know very little about the diffetences netween Sunni and Shia, so initially I just want to know if Sunnies have the same Hadiths that Shias use as a base for their beluef in the 12 Imams. I have understood that theese does not include dicuments that name the 12 Imams, but are they Hadiths? You are obviously not a 12 Iman Shia. What are you? 

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20 hours ago, andres said:

Thanks for the link. That the knowledge of the names of the 12 Imams first occured after they existed is one method used by historians to date dokuments. To prove they were predicted or not as oral tradition before that is not possible. I know very little about the diffetences netween Sunni and Shia, so initially I just want to know if Sunnies have the same Hadiths that Shias use as a base for their beluef in the 12 Imams. I have understood that theese does not include dicuments that name the 12 Imams, but are they Hadiths? You are obviously not a 12 Iman Shia. What are you? 

Welcome.

Because none of the early shia work (from 1st or 2nd century) contain any report mentioning all names in order. For e.g Book of sulaym. Another proof is that at the demise of every Imam shias devided in many groups, as it was not known who is the next Imam.

You can read sunni hadith HERE. They mostly mention twelve caliphs not Imams.

Edited by Munzir Ahmed

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3 hours ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

Welcome.

Because none of the early shia work (from 1st or 2nd century) contain any report mentioning all names in order. For e.g Book of sulaym. Another proof is that at the demise of every Imam shias devided in many groups, as it was not known who is the next Imam.

You can read sunni hadith HERE. They mostly mention twelve caliphs not Imams.

So the Shia works were written after the 12th Imam had hidden. Interesting that Sunnies also have the number of 12 leaders, (number inherited from Judaism)  What about the Sunni? Are there likewise a list of 12 Kalifs? And when were the Sunni Hadirhs written?

What kind of Sunni are you?

Edited by andres

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59 minutes ago, andres said:

So the Shia works were written after the 12th Imam had hidden. Interesting that Sunnies also have the number of 12 leaders, (number inherited from Judaism)  What about the Sunni? Are there likewise a list of 12 Kalifs? And when were the Sunni Hadirhs written?

What kind of Sunni are you?

we know 7 out of the 12. abu bakr. umar. uthman. ali. hassan ibn ali. umar bin abdul aziz. and imam mahdi. the remaining 5 may have come. or may come in the future. 

sunni ahadith used to be written even during the time of the companions. but the major works we have today are mere compilations which we compiled before 300 AH maximum.

the ahadith of 12 imams talk about them being from the quraish. not from the ahlul bait. if the intention was to point towards his pbuh's progeny, using the term quraish, a wide and general term, would not be wise, as quraish includes people outside ahlul bait too. 

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1 hour ago, andres said:

So the Shia works were written after the 12th Imam had hidden. Interesting that Sunnies also have the number of 12 leaders, (number inherited from Judaism)  What about the Sunni? Are there likewise a list of 12 Kalifs? And when were the Sunni Hadirhs written?

What kind of Sunni are you?

1st major shia hadith collection Kitab Al-kafi was written in a span of 20 years after 3rd century hijrah. Its author died in 327 or 328 AH during the minor occultation of their 12th and final Imam.

12 tribes of judaism or famous 12 companions (one betrayed him) of Prophet Isa (as) were present at the same time unlike 12 caliphs.

Hadith of 12 caliphs is a prophecy. Prophet saww only said 12 caliphs. Neither he said you have to obey them at any cost nor he said they all will be just and pious. So mostly sunnis consider it as a prophecy like many others. Its not necessary to find out who were those 12. Likewise there is a hadith which talk about 12 hypocrites.

All major sunni hadith books were compiled within the first three hijra centuries. I think the first of them is Muwatta of Imam Malik.

There are many important points in hadith of 12 caliphs which shia mostly ignore thus make wrong interpretations, like the point brother just a muslim mentioned.

Quote

the ahadith of 12 imams talk about them being from the quraish. not from the ahlul bait. if the intention was to point towards his pbuh's progeny, using the term quraish, a wide and general term, would not be wise, as quraish includes people outside ahlul bait too. 

 

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Hi Munzur

So the hadiths were written long after Shia and Sunnies split. But even so both parts recognise some hadiths of the other. To what extent do Sunni and Shia share identical hadiths?

Is your religion a secret?

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16 hours ago, andres said:

Hi Munzur

So the hadiths were written long after Shia and Sunnies split. But even so both parts recognise some hadiths of the other. To what extent do Sunni and Shia share identical hadiths?

Is your religion a secret?

I think more than 50% hadith are identical. May be more than 70%. There is also a compilation having identical ahadith from both sides but I dont have the link. Its in arabic.

The fact that the first proper book on shia hadith was compiled after the demise of their all Imams (except the 12th fictional one) is very problematic. It contains many fabrications from many different shia sects of that time. Asna ashri or twelver shia sect was a minority at that time. Most of their narrations are from non asna ashri. About 2/3 of their first compilation (Kitab Kafi) is weak/fabrication as per their own scholars.

Here is one example on how they made up to number 12. Also read THIS and THIS.

I am a follower of ahlul sunnah school of thought.

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On 10/8/2017 at 12:51 PM, andres said:

I am following a youtube lecture on the 12 Shia Imams by Sayed Moustafa aAl-Qazwini. He is presenting his lectures in a calm and sympathetic way, and he is Shiite. Sayed says Tafsirs say Muhammed named his followers, the 12 infallible Shia Imams, of which many were not even born before he died. He also say Sunnies accept these tafsirs to be genuine. If this is correct, why did Sunnies not follow Muhammeds command?

:salam:

Sorry, the preacher is spreading misinformation. Sunnis don't accept such Tasfir to be genuine. Shia sects themselves didn't and don't agree on the number of Imams let alone the Sunnis.

 

 

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51 minutes ago, Abul Hussain Hassani said:

:salam:

Sunnis don't accept such Tasfir to be genuine. 

Makes sense. Had Muhammed named his successors, Muslims had not disagreed. 

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i've made a list of prominent personalities of early islam, for me to understand better what's happened, especially the first 250 years or so after the demise of the Prophet. then i try to read as much as i could about those personalities.

It's work-in-progress. mostly sourced from wikipedia.

AhlulBait-vs-Caliph.pdf

AhlulBait-vs-SunniScholars.pdf

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