Jump to content
Pro-Alid

Ammar Nakshawani on sex slaves

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

According to a recent lecture by Ammar Nakshawani, the Twelver school of thought outright prohibits relations with a captive "ma malakat aymanakum" (what your right hands posses) out of marriage. Is Nakhsawani right about this? If so, how do the Shia interpret the following ayat:

Quote

And those who guard their private parts

Except from their wives or those their right hands possess, for indeed, they are not to be blamed (Quran 70:29-20)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He confused me on that part too since I've always known that you don't need nikah to do things with your slave. He should provide references for his claims. However overall it was an impressive lecture by him and he explained slavery from a rational point of view.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Hassan- said:

He confused me on that part too since I've always known that you don't need nikah to do things with your slave. He should provide references for his claims. However overall it was an impressive lecture by him and he explained slavery from a rational point of view.

2 hours ago, Mohamed1993 said:

Contact him and ask for references if you're interested, I've done so before.

I've heard from multiple people he answers Facebook messages much faster than emails but don't quote me on that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

وَمَنْ لَمْ يَسْتَطِعْ مِنْكُمْ طَوْلًا أَنْ يَنْكِحَ الْمُحْصَنَاتِ الْمُؤْمِنَاتِ فَمِنْ مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُكُمْ مِنْ فَتَيَاتِكُمُ الْمُؤْمِنَاتِ وَاللَّهُ أَعْلَمُ بِإِيمَانِكُمْ بَعْضُكُمْ مِنْ بَعْضٍ فَانْكِحُوهُنَّ بِإِذْنِ أَهْلِهِنَّ وَآتُوهُنَّ أُجُورَهُنَّ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ مُحْصَنَاتٍ غَيْرَ مُسَافِحَاتٍ وَلَا مُتَّخِذَاتِ أَخْدَانٍ فَإِذَا أُحْصِنَّ فَإِنْ أَتَيْنَ بِفَاحِشَةٍ فَعَلَيْهِنَّ نِصْفُ مَا عَلَى الْمُحْصَنَاتِ مِنَ الْعَذَابِ ذَلِكَ لِمَنْ خَشِيَ الْعَنَتَ مِنْكُمْ وَأَنْ تَصْبِرُوا خَيْرٌ لَكُمْ وَاللَّهُ غَفُورٌ رَحِيمٌ

And whoever among you cannot [find] the means to marry free, believing women, then [he may marry] from those whom your right hands possess of believing "fatiyat". And Allah is most knowing about your faith. You [believers] are of one another. So marry them with the permission of their people and give them their due compensation according to what is acceptable. [They should be] chaste, neither [of] those who commit unlawful intercourse randomly nor those who take [secret] lovers. But once they are sheltered in marriage, if they should commit adultery, then for them is half the punishment for free [unmarried] women. This [allowance] is for him among you who fears sin, but to be patient is better for you. And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

According to the verse above:

1. You can marry a "ma malakat..." if you cannot marry a free believing woman.

2. "Ma malakat...."s are a subgroup of "fatiyat". Fatiyat literally means "young girls". Quran also uses the word "fata" with the meaning of "young boy/man" in different verses.

3. The word "yameen" has more than one meaning: right (direction), vow, promise, oath, ...

If in the phrase ما ملکت ایمانکم the word yameen means oath or vow, then the phrase means "what you possessed through your vows". So maybe it means a kind of marriage contract.

4. Quran says "marry them with the permission of their families (ahl)".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

قال محمد بن صدقة البصري سألته عن المتعة أليس هذا بمنزلة الاماء؟ قال : نعم أما تقرأ قول الله «ومن لم يستطع منكم طولا أن ينكح المحصنات المؤمنات» إلى «ولا متخذات أخذان» فكما لا يسع الرجل أن يتزوج بالامة وهو يستطيع أن يتزوج بالحرة ، فكذلك [لا] يسع الرجل أن يتمتع بالامة وهو يستطيع أن يتزوج بالحرة

 

According to the narration above, a man cant marry a slave-permanently or temporarily-as long as he can marry a free woman.

عن عباد بن صهيب ، عن أبي عبدالله عليه‌السلام قال : لا ينبغي للرجل المسلم أن يتزوج من الاماء إلا من خشي العنت ولا يحل له من الاماء إلا واحدة

And according to this one a muslim should prevent marrying a slave unless he fears sins. And in such cases it isnt permissible for him to marry more than 1 slave.

علي عن أخيه عليه‌السلام قال : سألته عن رجل قال لامته وأراد أن يعتقها ويتزوجها : أعتقتك وجعلت صداقك عتقك قال : عتقت وهي بالخيار إن شاءت تزوجته وإن شاءت فلا ، وإن تزوجته فليعطها شيئا ، وإن قال : تزوجتك وجعلت مهرك عتقك كان النكاح (*) شيئا واجبا إلى أن يعطيها شيئا

A man was going to free his slave(as her mehr) and then marry her. Imam-a- said:

Free her and then she has the choice to marry him or not. And if she marries him, he must give her something (i.e, her mehr).

Edited by shadow_of_light

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

:salam:

Sayyid Ammar is an immensely popular speaker (and no doubt a very good one) and has done a lot of good as well, but majority of his audience are mere sheep - although this isn't limited to just Sayyid Ammar - since majority of the Western Shi'i audience have no ability to research, read or critically think. I blame this largely on the Western scholars/preachers who have presented and taught a very self-contradicting, wishy washy understanding of Islamic history, Islamic law and even Islamic ethics in the last 2-3 decades.

I don't usually go around pointing out mistakes from people's lectures (since most lecturers make minor blunders all the time), but this lecture was too much. Anyone who has studied basic Shi'i Fiqh will tell you how flawed this whole speech was and how much of a joke it was. I had a good laugh as the lecture was filled with flawed analogies, blatant mistakes, was highly misleading, but the poor audience of course has no ability to verify anything.

Wasalam

Edited by Ibn al-Hussain

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, shadow_of_light said:

 

وَمَنْ لَمْ يَسْتَطِعْ مِنْكُمْ طَوْلًا أَنْ يَنْكِحَ الْمُحْصَنَاتِ الْمُؤْمِنَاتِ فَمِنْ مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُكُمْ مِنْ فَتَيَاتِكُمُ الْمُؤْمِنَاتِ وَاللَّهُ أَعْلَمُ بِإِيمَانِكُمْ بَعْضُكُمْ مِنْ بَعْضٍ فَانْكِحُوهُنَّ بِإِذْنِ أَهْلِهِنَّ وَآتُوهُنَّ أُجُورَهُنَّ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ مُحْصَنَاتٍ غَيْرَ مُسَافِحَاتٍ وَلَا مُتَّخِذَاتِ أَخْدَانٍ فَإِذَا أُحْصِنَّ فَإِنْ أَتَيْنَ بِفَاحِشَةٍ فَعَلَيْهِنَّ نِصْفُ مَا عَلَى الْمُحْصَنَاتِ مِنَ الْعَذَابِ ذَلِكَ لِمَنْ خَشِيَ الْعَنَتَ مِنْكُمْ وَأَنْ تَصْبِرُوا خَيْرٌ لَكُمْ وَاللَّهُ غَفُورٌ رَحِيمٌ

And whoever among you cannot [find] the means to marry free, believing women, then [he may marry] from those whom your right hands possess of believing "fatiyat". And Allah is most knowing about your faith. You [believers] are of one another. So marry them with the permission of their people and give them their due compensation according to what is acceptable. [They should be] chaste, neither [of] those who commit unlawful intercourse randomly nor those who take [secret] lovers. But once they are sheltered in marriage, if they should commit adultery, then for them is half the punishment for free [unmarried] women. This [allowance] is for him among you who fears sin, but to be patient is better for you. And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

According to the verse above:

1. You can marry a "ma malakat..." if you cannot marry a free believing woman.

2. "Ma malakat...."s are a subgroup of "fatiyat". Fatiyat literally means "young girls". Quran also uses the word "fata" with the meaning of "young boy/man" in different verses.

3. The word "yameen" has more than one meaning: right (direction), vow, promise, oath, ...

If in the phrase ما ملکت ایمانکم the word yameen means oath or vow, then the phrase means "what you possessed through your vows". So maybe it means a kind of marriage contract.

4. Quran says "marry them with the permission of their families (ahl)".

Allama Tabatabai says:

Nevertheless, it seems a bit difficult to say that it is 'marriage' which is implied by the word, 'forbidden', because of the exceptional clause coming later: except those whom your right hands possess. Sexual intercourse with one's slave women is lawful without marriage. Therefore, it would seem more appropriate if prohibition is taken to refer to sexual intercourse, and not to marriage alone, as will be explained later. The same is the implication of the words: that you seek (them) by means of your wealth ..., as will be described afterwards. Thus the fact emerges that the implied word after 'forbidden' is cohabitation, or another similar word, not marriage. Allah has avoided mentioning it explicitly, because the divine speech refrains from such words and maintains a high moral decorum.

http://m.almizan.org/tafsir/4-23-28/

 

Read this topic here for more info: 

 

6 hours ago, Inner Peace said:

I've heard from multiple people he answers Facebook messages much faster than emails but don't quote me on that.

 

8 hours ago, Mohamed1993 said:

Contact him and ask for references if you're interested, I've done so before.

I can't be bothered really, I already know he is wrong based on what are scholars say.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In this day and age most people are free so therefore this 'right hand possession thing' is very limited, maybe in some Muslim countries this may still be a thing, but now that Most Muslim countries are pretty much secular I don't know how this will be practised, and just because you can do something doesn't mean it's necessary or obligatory, it's just one of those things that's just there if the situation arises, islam is simple and elegant and Allah has made this religion fulfilling for the believers

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Pro-Alid said:

According to a recent lecture by Ammar Nakshawani, the Twelver school of thought outright prohibits relations with a captive "ma malakat aymanakum" (what your right hands posses) out of marriage. Is Nakhsawani right about this? If so, how do the Shia interpret the following ayat:

Alhamdolilah I am right. I have long been believing that right hand possesses means having Nikah with slave girl and there is divorce as well. Alhamdolilah I was right. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

Alhamdolilah I am right. I have long been believing that right hand possesses means having Nikah with slave girl and there is divorce as well. Alhamdolilah I was right. 

You are right because nakshawani said so? Go read what are scholars say.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Hassan- said:

You are right because nakshawani said so? Go read what are scholars say.

Bro, no not because of it. But because there are two talaqs for slave wife in fiqh. Tell me if there is no segha where from talaq comes?  

@E.L King though I am not fan of Ammar Nakshawani but he said something which I told you before and you said there is no segha for it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

Bro, no not because of it. But because there are two talaqs for slave wife in fiqh. Tell me if there is no segha where from talaq comes? 

The divorce comes from the fact that the slave can marry someone (other than the master/owner) IF the master allows her to get married to begin with. The discussion here is whether there is such a thing as an 'aqd/nikah between the master and the slave herself, and the response to that is a big-fat-NO

Wasalam

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

Anyone who has studied basic Shi'i Fiqh will tell you how flawed this whole speech was and how much of a joke it was. I had a good laugh as the lecture was filled with flawed analogies, blatant mistakes, was highly misleading, but the poor audience of course has no ability to verify anything.

Do you want to elaborate? Even just a little bit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Ibn al-Hussain said:

The divorce comes from the fact that the slave can marry someone (other than the master/owner) IF the master allows her to get married to begin with. The discussion here is whether there is such a thing as an 'aqd/nikah between the master and the slave herself, and the response to that is a big-fat-NO

Wasalam

Is every Maraja agreed on this issue?  I don't think so because I have read that mother of our 12th Imam was a slave girl and she was married to Imam by Nikah.

I believe some Maraja may differ in this view.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

The divorce comes from the fact that the slave can marry someone (other than the master/owner) IF the master allows her to get married to begin with. The discussion here is whether there is such a thing as an 'aqd/nikah between the master and the slave herself, and the response to that is a big-fat-NO

Wasalam

So, you mean that if a Master had relations with her and then disassociate from her and ask her to marry someone else, there are no words for disassociation and the master could fraudulently lie later on saying that I didn't disassociate and she left without permission. I don't believe my Islam leaves a gap for others to exploit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

@E.L King could you cite from Taudith of Ayotullah Khoi regarding marriage with slave girl? 

I went back to the older threads and this is what I posted last time:

( مسألة 1334 ) : يحرم لمن زوج أمته وطؤها ولمسها والنظر إليها بشهوة ما دامت في حبال الزوج وكذلك إذا كانت في العدة .

Rough translation:

Issue 1334: it is forbidden upon the one who married his slave-girl [to someone else] to mount her (to have intercourse with her), to touch her, to look at her with lust as long as she remains tied to her husband, likewise if she was in idda.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, Haji 2003 said:

Do you want to elaborate? Even just a little bit.

I can elaborate, but I fear people do not have the correct historical understanding regarding slavery (as Nakshwani mentions, we evaluate these things with our 21st century lens) and if they get exposed to the actual rulings in our Fiqh works, they would not be able to tolerate and handle it. People are better off reading this article by Jonathan Brown: https://yaqeeninstitute.org/en/jonathan-brown/the-problem-of-slavery/ who I believe did a pretty decent job tackling the issue.

Just as an example, besides the complementary discussions on slaves found in Kitab al-Nikah, Kitab al-Talaq, and Kitab al-'Itq, when it comes to Kitab al-Bay'/Tijarah (selling and purchasing), slaves are discussed under animal transactions (literally under بیع الحیوان) because they are considered property (just like one's land or house). Or look up the concept of Tahleel in Kitab al-Nikah, where the slave is merely used for sex by someone else that the master permits (the master recites a formula such as I make it permissible for you to have intercourse with her - احللت لک وطأها). Anyone who knows Arabic can search up these rulings in works of Fiqh themselves - they are pretty extensive and lengthy (which also makes the whole "Islam always wanted to abolish slavery'' theory a joke).

As far as the mother of Imam Mahdi being married to Imam 'Askari (I don't know how reliable this is - we barely know anything about the mother of Imam Mahdi), the only way this is possible is if she was "freed" first. Otherwise, many of the slaves of the Imams through which they had children remained slaves, but one of the categories of slaves is Umm Walad - a slave who has a child through her master (like the mother of Qasim ibn al-Hasan, who was a slave of Imam Hasan).

Wasalam

Edited by Ibn al-Hussain

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

The discussion here is whether there is such a thing as an 'aqd/nikah between the master and the slave herself, and the response to that is a big-fat-NO

Wasalam

The relevant Quranic verses may justify the acts in the era in which they were revealed. But what about their position today? Could it be that the gradual institutional eradication of slavery, rather than outright prohibition, was the reason that certain matters such as continuing to treat other fellow humans as a 'Personal property' was temporarily allowed (but not encouraged) to a certain extent until both the freemen and the slaves entirely embraced the idea of freedom in that part of the world?   

p.s I haven't listened to Ammar's lecture. Therefore, sorry if I have misunderstood the topic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

People are better off reading this article by Jonathan Brown: https://yaqeeninstitute.org/en/jonathan-brown/the-problem-of-slavery/ who I believe did a pretty decent job tackling the issue.

Thanks, that is really really helpful. I've had a quick read of the Brown paper and it's so reassuring. I have been making similar points here over the years, with little impact.

It did occur to me at the time that there were some accounts on this site which used topics such as this one for dog-whistle attacks on Islam. This specific topic was designed to raise female antipathy towards the religion.

Edited by Haji 2003

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Recent Posts on ShiaChat!

    • Off-hand l'd say two of your options are: 1] Take him to small-claims court and use the courts 'judgment cap' (e.g. $2500 in some states) and claim this portion is past due if he owes more than $2500.  Then go-for-the-rest later (if necessary  ) 2] Write him off your taxes as a "bad debt" and send a report to a credit reporting agency. Also, if he put the money into a business, then go to the BBB and see if their complaint dep't can help.
    • hi in my opinion the main problem between sunni &shia is about their claiming of supremacy to  each other for shias their Imams are martyred and according to  below verses when we call them they answer us and all of them 100% beneficial to us but sunni leaders were ordinary people & sunnis bro&sis dont call them as martyrs  so whats their benefit for them as you see in  verse 12  And of the people is he who worships Allah on an edge. If he is touched by good, he is reassured by it; but if he is struck by trial, he turns on his face [to the other direction]. He has lost [this] world and the Hereafter. That is what is the manifest loss. (11) He invokes instead of Allah that which neither harms him nor benefits him. That is what is the extreme error. (12) He invokes one whose harm is closer than his benefit - how wretched the protector and how wretched the associate. (13)Indeed, Allah will admit those who believe and do righteous deeds to gardens beneath which rivers flow. Indeed, Allah does what He intends. (14) Whoever should think that Allah will not support [Prophet Muhammad] in this world and the Hereafter - let him extend a rope to the ceiling, then cut off [his breath], and let him see: will his effort remove that which enrages [him]? (15) Al-Hajj◄  333  ►Juz 17 http://tanzil.net/#22:11
    • First few minutes of this DeutscheWelle program. What is the solution for Autonomous Vehicles meeting obstacles that are not in its programming? tag w/ networking, satellites, system learning, human guidance integration, ... http://www.dw.com/en/tomorrow-today-the-science-magazine/av-41331201 
    • Salam Sister. Its very very heart breaking to listen to your situation. But remember, Bibi Fatima was also abused (May Allah curse the oppressors), Imam Hussain was also abused, So was Bibi Sakina but remember that they were satisfied with what God wished for them. They knew God as He should be known. Allah speaks in Quran 6:59 - "And with Him are the keys of the unseen; none knows them except Him. And He knows what is on the land and in the sea. Not a leaf falls but that He knows it. And no grain is there within the darknesses of the earth and no moist or dry [thing] but that it is [written] in a clear record." So remember this that whatever is happening with you Allah is a Witness over all of these. And people will be questioned the moment they enter their grave. But we are the nation of RasoolAllah. The bringer of Mercy of Allah. No matter how much painful incident happens with you, keep on forgiving. Ask from Allah the forgiveness of your parents as well Right Guidance.  Also, this is a trial for you. Do you know Allah tries only His "Best" Servants. You should be happy just like Imam Hussain for he was happy to be tried by Allah. His trial was the greatest and no trial matched his trial. And what a love story you told that despite you doing wrong to yourself (that is attempt to die), instead you were guided by the Rahma of Allah through His book. Not everybody is bestowed with such love of Allah. Know this, He is the giver of Death and Life. If He saved you and Guided you then He has a plan for you. Just believe in Him. Maybe He has a very luminous plan for you ahead.  This is the time when you should build a stronger bond with Him.  He has called you towards His love. And please don't do harm to yourself. Nothing is yours. Everything Belongs to Him. If you do harm yourself, you actually try to harm His Property. Seek Repentance, He is Sariyal Ridha, He accepts it very easily and very Quickly. May Allah bestow His Mercy and Love on you Sister all your life and May He keeps you steadfast on your religion and the love of Ahlulbayt. No pain is more than the pain of Ahlulbayt specially that of Aba Abdillah. Whenever a tragedy befalls you, remember the pain and tragedy Aba Abdillah has to go through, Bibi Zaynab and Bibi Sakina went through.. 6 month old Hazrat Ali Asghar went through.. And they all just saw the "Beauty of Allah", "Death being sweeter than honey when it was bestowed on them by Allah". Just be patient as Imam Ali was and know that Allah's plan surpasses our highest aspirations. Allah never leaves His servants hopeless. he is always with you. He created you to show His love to you. His love comes in different ways. It has come to you in the form of Guidance through Quran. A call of love. Answer it.
    • Alaikum Salaam Brothers And Sisters, I'm Wanting To Become A Shia Muslim, And Was Wondering If Anyone Could Refer Me To Some Really Good Shia Ideology, Beliefs And Practices? I Thought It More Prudent To Ask Some Experienced Shia Muslims On Some Good Book Titles In English? I Appreciate Any And All Assistance Given! Shukraan Jazilan, And Jazak Allah!!
×