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Is Taqlid purely an aqli daleel near the Maraje?

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8 hours ago, iraqi_shia said:

Listen, if you think the scholars of Najaf and Qom are all rubbish and you alone are the alim, then thats your problem.

I didn’t say that. I just provided how the ahlul bayt (as) have categorized the shias. You see there is no mention of muqallids and mujtahids. 

Edited by shuaybi

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8 hours ago, shuaybi said:

Is salat (the basic rules of how one should pray in normal circumstances) an old issue or newly emerging issue? Why is a mujtahid doing ijtihad in this old issue?

Why don't you give any single example of the ijtihad done by Mujtahideen in salat (how one should pray in normal circumstances)?
And was their "ijtihad" against the Quran & Hadith?

8 hours ago, shuaybi said:

Yes that is exactly what ijtihad is limited to and should be performed by every believer.

  At least you have accepted the term "ijtihad"!

8 hours ago, shuaybi said:

Imams (as) are actually asking us to refer back to them through their words that are carried by the narrators of the hadith. You have a misconception in your mind that hadith are difficult to understand and that the Imams (as) spoke in ambiguous, cryptic, vague language.

:) So you're considering that the minds which carry the ahadith were perfect. There is no chance that the narrator can forget something or change the arrangements of words used by Imam or misinterpret what was mentioned to him by Imam. Do you know how much time a mujtahid spend in understanding the ahkaam mentioned in the ahadith? Do you think there is no "batin" of hadith?

So you think Islam or its laws cease to exist for a person who was traveling in an aeroplane (non-stop flight) from Iraq to USA. There is no answer for him that how should he offer obligatory prayers in that situation. You think Islam or its laws cease to exist for a person who is living in International Space Station, how should he offer prayers up there, which side do he face, how long do he fast in ISS which is orbiting the earth hundreds of times in 24 hours and where no concept of sunrise or sunset exist.

9 hours ago, shuaybi said:

Imam has forbidden us to use our judgement on issues not to be found in the hadith and Quran.

Yes, personal judgement means "ijtihad bil ra'ai" or "ijtihad based on personal opinion".
What if mujtahid strive, work-hard (i.e., do IJTIHAD) to find the hokum from the basic sources of Shari'ah i.e., Quran & Hadith?  

And in last, I can see you're avoiding to answer my questions. I will ignore you questions from now.

 

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4 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

Why don't you give any single example of the ijtihad done by Mujtahideen in salat (how one should pray in normal circumstances)? And was their "ijtihad" against the Quran & Hadith?

Is not the mujtahid's risalah al amaliyyah a product of his ijtihad?

4 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

So you think Islam or its laws cease to exist for a person who was traveling in an aeroplane (non-stop flight) from Iraq to USA. There is no answer for him that how should he offer obligatory prayers in that situation. You think Islam or its laws cease to exist for a person who is living in International Space Station, how should he offer prayers up there, which side do he face, how long do he fast in ISS which is orbiting the earth hundreds of times in 24 hours and where no concept of sunrise or sunset exist.

When did I say or assume that?

4 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

So you're considering that the minds which carry the ahadith were perfect. There is no chance that the narrator can forget something or change the arrangements of words used by Imam or misinterpret what was mentioned to him by Imam.

Are you saying hadith literature is corrupted and it's realities can only be unlocked by a special group of people?

4 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

Yes, personal judgement means "ijtihad bil ra'ai" or "ijtihad based on personal opinion".
What if mujtahid strive, work-hard (i.e., do IJTIHAD) to find the hokum from the basic sources of Shari'ah i.e., Quran & Hadith?  

If mujtahid strives to find the hukm from the quran and hadith, then the end result of that effort must be that he should quote those hadith and refer us to the words of the masumeen (as).

4 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

And in last, I can see you're avoiding to answer my questions. I will ignore you questions from now.

I have gone out of my way answering all types of unrelated questions, when nobody has yet addressed my original question:

Is the proof of taqlid simply based on aqli dalil near the maraje or do they provide proof of taqlid with references from hadith and quran. I am interested in their official responses. I am not interested in why you decided to do taqlid. I am not interested in links, articles or books written by non-maraje.

If you have never yourself asked your marja (the one whose taqlid you do) this question, and if you have never received an official response from him, then simply don't respond.

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3 hours ago, shuaybi said:

Is the proof of taqlid simply based on aqli dalil near the maraje or do they provide proof of taqlid with references from hadith and quran. I am interested in their official responses.

The verses & the ahadith were presented before you many times, and dont want to keep repeating them again & again.

I think you are not in the taqleed of "Masomeen" (asws)? Perhaps this is the reason you are unsure about taqleed.

Anyway, I am ending my participation in this discussion.

Wassalm.

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On 10/19/2017 at 10:14 PM, shuaybi said:

Yes I refer to the experts. The masumeen (as) - through their hadith. Do you think Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى will punish me on the day of judgement for this stand? Have the masumeen (as) discouraged the shia believers from accessing their hadith directly? Are their (as) hadith incomprehensible for us? In hadith of thaqalayn, was the prophet (as) only addressing the mujtahids?

If you have reached the level of knowing the hadith, quran, the abrogated from the abrogating, the context and history, as well as know the Arabic fluently, then go right ahead. Until then, refer to an expert. No one is saying "You have to do taqleed", all that is said is if you are not a mujtahid, then you should ask an expert, just like in every other walk of life.

Like I have already mentioned, you position comes completely unstuck when you understand history, the position the Imams AS gave to the fuqaha, and particularly the 4 deputies. 

I dont know who Allah will punish or forgive. I do know that He says in the Quran :

9|122|It is not advisable for the believers to march out altogether. Of every division that marches out, let a group remain behind, to gain understanding of the religion, and to notify their people when they have returned to them, that they may beware.

H 976, Ch. 89, h 1 Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Muhammad ibn al-Husayn from Safwan from Ya‘qub ibn Shu‘ayb who has said the following: “Once I asked abu ‘Abd Allah, recipient of divine supreme covenant, ‘If something may happen to the Imam what should the people do?’ The Imam asked, ‘Where do the words of Allah, the Most Majestic, the Most Gracious, apply: “Not all believers have to become specialists in religious learning. Why do not certain people from each group of believers seek to become specialists in religious learning, and after completing their studies, guide their group so that they will have fear of Allah.” (9:122) The Imam then said, ‘They will have good reason to be excused as long as they are searching and learning. So also are those who wait for them until they complete their religious education and return back to them.’”

H 977, Ch. 89, h 2 Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from Muhammad ibn ‘Isa from Yunus ibn ‘Abd alRahman who has said that narrated to us Hammad from ‘Abd al-A‘la’ who has said the following: “Once I asked abu ‘Abd Allah, recipient of divine supreme covenant, about the statement of Sunni Muslims, al-‘Amma, that says the Messenger of Allah has said, ‘If a person dies without recognizing who his Imam is, his death is as if he has died the death of ignorance (pre-Islamic age of darkness).’ “The Imam said, ‘That is very true, by Allah.’ I then asked, ‘What if the Imam passes away and a person is in Khurasan and does not know who the executor of the will of the Imam is? Is this a good excuse for him?’ He (the Imam) said, ‘No, that is not a good reason and an excuse. When the Imam leaves this world the authority of the executor of his will applies to those who live in the area. Also the obligation of searching to learn about one’s duties applies to those who are not in the area but who have learned about the passing away of the Imam. Allah, the Most Majestic, the Most Gracious, has said, “Not all believers have to become specialists in religious learning. Why do not some people from each group of believers seek to become specialists in religious learning, and after completing their studies, guide their group so that they will have fear of Allah?”’ (9:122)

You seem to have this bizarre notion that mujtihads fatwa are incompatible with the Quran and Sunnah as understood by the A'immah AS. This type of rumor is unfortunately widespread and based on ignorance, hence the general sigh of disappointment when threads like this start again. 

You would be best to understand how the shia fatawa is developed, there are some good threads on here as a start. I think jurisprudence made easy is a book covering this. You may also wish to study some mantiq. 

 

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8 hours ago, iraqi_shia said:

If you have reached the level of knowing the hadith, quran, the abrogated from the abrogating, the context and history, as well as know the Arabic fluently, then go right ahead. Until then, refer to an expert. No one is saying "You have to do taqleed", all that is said is if you are not a mujtahid, then you should ask an expert, just like in every other walk of life.

Nobody can deny that one should not refer to a knowledgeable person. It is common sense. If people were foolish enough to deny this, they would not go to doctor's, mechanics, engineers, etc in the other aspects of life. This problem would have manifested in other areas of their life. They would have to be told to go to "experts" in all fields. The problem is that "taqlid" is not a matter of referring but it is a matter of submitting. Submitting without the right to demand proof. Such a submission can only be done to one appointed directly by Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى. For all others we need to demand proof.

I don't mind asking the "expert" but I need the expert to guide me to the hadith, to the words of the masumeen (as). If the "expert" knows the context, abrogation details, history of the hadith - he should just mention all of that along with the hadith. Based on his ijtihad (research), if he has narrowed down to a few authentic hadith which explain the issue, then he must quote all of them. The hadith is the essential and critical component. Without hadith I cannot be sure if I am following the masumeen (as) or someone's aql.

9 hours ago, iraqi_shia said:

I dont know who Allah will punish or forgive. I do know that He says in the Quran :

9|122|It is not advisable for the believers to march out altogether. Of every division that marches out, let a group remain behind, to gain understanding of the religion, and to notify their people when they have returned to them, that they may beware.

H 976, Ch. 89, h 1 Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Muhammad ibn al-Husayn from Safwan from Ya‘qub ibn Shu‘ayb who has said the following: “Once I asked abu ‘Abd Allah, recipient of divine supreme covenant, ‘If something may happen to the Imam what should the people do?’ The Imam asked, ‘Where do the words of Allah, the Most Majestic, the Most Gracious, apply: “Not all believers have to become specialists in religious learning. Why do not certain people from each group of believers seek to become specialists in religious learning, and after completing their studies, guide their group so that they will have fear of Allah.” (9:122) The Imam then said, ‘They will have good reason to be excused as long as they are searching and learning. So also are those who wait for them until they complete their religious education and return back to them.’”

H 977, Ch. 89, h 2 Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from Muhammad ibn ‘Isa from Yunus ibn ‘Abd alRahman who has said that narrated to us Hammad from ‘Abd al-A‘la’ who has said the following: “Once I asked abu ‘Abd Allah, recipient of divine supreme covenant, about the statement of Sunni Muslims, al-‘Amma, that says the Messenger of Allah has said, ‘If a person dies without recognizing who his Imam is, his death is as if he has died the death of ignorance (pre-Islamic age of darkness).’ “The Imam said, ‘That is very true, by Allah.’ I then asked, ‘What if the Imam passes away and a person is in Khurasan and does not know who the executor of the will of the Imam is? Is this a good excuse for him?’ He (the Imam) said, ‘No, that is not a good reason and an excuse. When the Imam leaves this world the authority of the executor of his will applies to those who live in the area. Also the obligation of searching to learn about one’s duties applies to those who are not in the area but who have learned about the passing away of the Imam. Allah, the Most Majestic, the Most Gracious, has said, “Not all believers have to become specialists in religious learning. Why do not some people from each group of believers seek to become specialists in religious learning, and after completing their studies, guide their group so that they will have fear of Allah?”’ (9:122)

These ayah have nothing to do with taqlid or ijtihad. Please refer to the tafsir of masumeen (as) on these verses. The word "yatafaqqahu fiddeen" is incorrectly translated as "specialists in religious learning". The word refers to the "fuqaha". Again refer to hadith of masumeen (as) to understand what is their definition of a "faqih".

9 hours ago, iraqi_shia said:

You seem to have this bizarre notion that mujtihads fatwa are incompatible with the Quran and Sunnah as understood by the A'immah AS. This type of rumor is unfortunately widespread and based on ignorance, hence the general sigh of disappointment when threads like this start again. 

If the fatwa is based on hadith the mujtahids should simply quote the hadith. They should present the words of the masumeen (as) and get out of the way. They should never pretend to be the "aalims". In fact, it is illegal to NOT quote the hadith. Refer to the following narration from al kafi:

Abu Abd Allah (asws) said: “Beware of the branched-out lies.” They asked the Imam (as), “What are the branched-out lies?” The Imam (as) replied: “It is when you narrate a Hadith of an Imam (as) without mentioning the Imam’s (as) name.” [Reference: Usool-e-Kafi, Vol. 1, Chapter 17, Hadith 12]

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42 minutes ago, shuaybi said:

The problem is that "taqlid" is not a matter of referring but it is a matter of submitting. Submitting without the right to demand proof. Such a submission can only be done to one appointed directly by Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى. For all others we need to demand proof.

No its not.

Its just expert advice. You dont submit to your doctor or lawyer, or murja if they give you advice. Now the question is, at what point would you not accept their advice? When is a lesser opinion better than a more educated one?

43 minutes ago, shuaybi said:

I don't mind asking the "expert" but I need the expert to guide me to the hadith, to the words of the masumeen (as). If the "expert" knows the context, abrogation details, history of the hadith - he should just mention all of that along with the hadith. Based on his ijtihad (research), if he has narrowed down to a few authentic hadith which explain the issue, then he must quote all of them. The hadith is the essential and critical component. Without hadith I cannot be sure if I am following the masumeen (as) or someone's aql.

Hang on. Lets assume your not a mujtahid. So what value would any of this information be to you? If you have not even studied the depths of mantiq, how can you assess what is induction and deduction? when is it analogical or figurative?

What your asking for is like saying to the doctor, im not going to take the medication until you show me exactly how it works, all the peer review studies, and how you have determined that its best for me. If your not a doctor, you will simply not be able to understand the subject matter. 

52 minutes ago, shuaybi said:

These ayah have nothing to do with taqlid or ijtihad. Please refer to the tafsir of masumeen (as) on these verses.

The tafsir of the Aimma AS are in blue, I quoted them directly there for you. Im not sure how you missed them.

 

54 minutes ago, shuaybi said:

If the fatwa is based on hadith the mujtahids should simply quote the hadith. They should present the words of the masumeen (as) and get out of the way. They should never pretend to be the "aalims".

I think you say this as you do not understand shia fiqh. You seem to think that there is a saying of a masoom for everything, and its just a matter of quoting the hadith and moving on. You may wish to do a search for usul al fiqh and take some time to appreciate the topic.

 

56 minutes ago, shuaybi said:

In fact, it is illegal to NOT quote the hadith. Refer to the following narration from al kafi:

Abu Abd Allah (asws) said: “Beware of the branched-out lies.” They asked the Imam (as), “What are the branched-out lies?” The Imam (as) replied: “It is when you narrate a Hadith of an Imam (as) without mentioning the Imam’s (as) name.” [Reference: Usool-e-Kafi, Vol. 1, Chapter 17, Hadith 12]

Close.

Here is the actual statement : 

H 150, Ch. 17, h12
It is narrated through the same chain of narrators from Muhammad ibn Ali in a
marfu‘ manner from abu ‘Abd Allah , recipient of divine supreme covenant, who
has said the following:
“Beware of the branched-out lies.” They asked the Imam,
‘What are branched-out lies?’ The Imam replied, ‘It is when a
person narrates a Hadith to you and you ignore him and narrate
it from the person from whom he had narrated the Hadith.’

Just for correctness, you will note the isnad is problematic.

The chapter and statements are discussing preserving the collections of hadiths, and preserving their meaning.

As for fiqh, fiqh is not hadith. So there is no such concept of something being "illegal" if you dont narrate a hadith. I can see were your confusion has come from, but it only highlights the disaster of your position. You misunderstood the narration. The narration is saying that you cant claim to narrate from a person you have not met. 

eg. person A narrates to person B. You meet person B and they tell you a hadith from person A. You then narrate the hadith from person A, even though you never heard it from person A, you in fact heard it from person B. 

The issue here is that person B may be a liar and person A may have never said anything etc.

This rule is well known in hadith and is narrated often eg

Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from his father from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn
Khalid from al-Nawfali from al-Sakuni from abu ‘Abd Allah, recipient of divine
supreme covenant, who has said the following:
“Amir al-Mu’minin, recipient of divine supreme covenant, has
said, ‘When you narrate a Hadith you must say who its narrator
is. If it is true it will be for you and if it is false it will be his (the
narrator’s) responsibility.

Now we can see the danger of you trying to guess religion, why not just either study and become an expert, or in the mean time, refer to an expert. 

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On 10/22/2017 at 4:26 PM, iraqi_shia said:

Hang on. Lets assume your not a mujtahid. So what value would any of this information be to you? If you have not even studied the depths of mantiq, how can you assess what is induction and deduction? when is it analogical or figurative?

What your asking for is like saying to the doctor, im not going to take the medication until you show me exactly how it works, all the peer review studies, and how you have determined that its best for me. If your not a doctor, you will simply not be able to understand the subject matter. 

That is a broad statement. You are claiming that the ahadith of the masumeen (as) are beyond the grasp of people who haven't studied mantiq, kalam, usul-e-fiqh, etc. Are there any statements from the imams (as) to support this? Have they (as) made these subjects a pre-requisite to understanding their words? The believers living during the times of the Imams (as) - how were they acting upon the hadith? Did they have a grasp of these subjects?

Effectively, you are driving people away from hadith and pushing them towards the bondage of the mujtahids. You are implying that people should not read the hadith. Only the mujtahids are qualified to comprehend them. 

What about the thousands of hadith on non-fiqh issues? I am referring to issues like raja'at, taqiyyah, tabarra, mashiyah, fitrah, istitah, mabdah, lawh, qalam, kursi, nafs, arwah, death, grave, shafa'at, sirat, mizaan, and so on. What about the thousands of hadith on the tafseer of qur'an? If you have selected a mujtahid (your doctor) who is the most knowledgeable, the most qualified then you must approach him for every question in religion? If they are the naib-e-imam then they must perform the complete role of the Imam. One should refer to them for not only fiqh questions but also all the non-fiqh topics. Where are their books (i.e. books written by the maraje for their followers) on all of the above topics translated into all different languages like the "laws of Islam" and made available just as easily to the people? In such a system, every muqallid should only be reading books authored by his/her respective marja.

Usul-e-fiqh is a later on invention (after the major occultation). It is a subject that has roots in and borrowed from the aammaa (ahlul sunnah). Here I am, a shia, who wants to access the teachings of the ahlul bayt (as) and you are pushing me towards the teachings of the ahlul sunnah? We have been discouraged by the imams (as) to take religion from them and follow their foot steps.

On 10/22/2017 at 4:26 PM, iraqi_shia said:

What your asking for is like saying to the doctor, im not going to take the medication until you show me exactly how it works, all the peer review studies, and how you have determined that its best for me. If your not a doctor, you will simply not be able to understand the subject matter

Your analogy is correct only if you replace the word "doctor" with "imam (as)". Everybody else is a "patient" (seeker of knowledge, taalib-e-ilm, student) in need of a cure (knowledge) from the real doctors (the imams (as)). 

On 10/22/2017 at 4:26 PM, iraqi_shia said:

Now we can see the danger of you trying to guess religion, why not just either study and become an expert, or in the mean time, refer to an expert. 

Thank you for shedding light on the alternative reading of the hadith. Now let me ask you. Is this not what the prophet (s) and the imams (as) wanted us to do? For us to read their hadith, share the understanding and correct one another. What is wrong with this scenario? Even if I made a mistake, I am not asking (god forbid) people to follow me. I am not claiming responsibility of their aamaal. They all should demand proof, refer to and act upon the hadith. 

Prophet (s) said: Remind each other, and meet with each other, and narrate Hadith to each other, for the Hadith revives the heart. Surely the hearts rusts away like the rusting of the swords. [Source: wasail-us-shia H33248]

There are many hadith like the above. These hadith are applicable to all believers. None of them mention that the believers must first study the 10-15 disciplines of the mujtahid. If the mujtahids are going to monopolize knowledge of the ahadith, then for whom does the hadith such as above apply to?

 

Edited by shuaybi

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On 10/24/2017 at 1:39 PM, shuaybi said:

That is a broad statement. You are claiming that the ahadith of the masumeen (as) are beyond the grasp of people who haven't studied mantiq, kalam, usul-e-fiqh, etc. Are there any statements from the imams (as) to support this? Have they (as) made these subjects a pre-requisite to understanding their words? The believers living during the times of the Imams (as) - how were they acting upon the hadith? Did they have a grasp of these subjects?

Yes. You think anyone can simply pick up a hadith and know its meaning, relevance and application?

Lets be honest, 90% of Muslims cant even read Arabic properly, then there are those who intellect is lacking etc. The reality is that not everyone can become a top athlete, a professor of medicine, or a marja. 

This is obvious to a wise adult, but as you asked for what the Aimma AS say, here :

H 103, Ch. 11, h9 Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from Muhammad ibn ‘Isa from Yunus from Dawud ibn Farqad from one he narrated from ibn Shubruma (a judge in al-Kufa during the rule of al-Mansur) who has said the following:  “I never heard anything like a statement I heard from Imam abu ‘Abd Allah, recipient of divine supreme covenant, and it almost pierced my heart. The Imam, recipient of divine supreme covenant, said, ‘My father narrated from my great-great-greatgreat grandfather, the Holy Prophet, recipient of divine supreme covenant, who said, “Those who act on the basis of analogy will face their destruction and lead others to their destruction. Those who give fatwas (legal opinions) without knowing the abrogating and the abrogated (texts of the law), the clear text and that which requires interpretation, they will face destruction and lead others to their destruction.’” 

The believers at that time and after until now referred to the best experts in religion, either the Aimma AS themselves or the best educated. As I mentioned to you before, the Aimma AS would tell their followers to go and ask such and such in their town for rulings.

 

On 10/24/2017 at 1:39 PM, shuaybi said:

Effectively, you are driving people away from hadith and pushing them towards the bondage of the mujtahids. You are implying that people should not read the hadith. Only the mujtahids are qualified to comprehend them. 

Bondage of mujtahids? people should not read hadith? I have not said any of these things. 

However, yes, the ones educated in religion, they are able to take the correct understanding of them. If someone cant read , can they get the correct meaning of the text? If someone is mentally very weak, can they get the correct meaning? Think about it. 

On 10/24/2017 at 1:39 PM, shuaybi said:

What about the thousands of hadith on non-fiqh issues? I am referring to issues like raja'at, taqiyyah, tabarra, mashiyah, fitrah, istitah, mabdah, lawh, qalam, kursi, nafs, arwah, death, grave, shafa'at, sirat, mizaan, and so on. What about the thousands of hadith on the tafseer of qur'an? If you have selected a mujtahid (your doctor) who is the most knowledgeable, the most qualified then you must approach him for every question in religion? If they are the naib-e-imam then they must perform the complete role of the Imam. One should refer to them for not only fiqh questions but also all the non-fiqh topics. Where are their books (i.e. books written by the maraje for their followers) on all of the above topics translated into all different languages like the "laws of Islam" and made available just as easily to the people? In such a system, every muqallid should only be reading books authored by his/her respective marja.

I can see your not familiar with shia ideology. I hope you will stay interested.

Faru Al Deen is what you can ask an expert on. Usul Al Deen, you can not refer to anyone, and you must become the expert in tauheed, adala, nabuwa, imama, ma'ad etc. 

Essentially, legal issues you can refer, matters of belief, then this is something you have to take responsibility for. 

On 10/24/2017 at 1:39 PM, shuaybi said:

Usul-e-fiqh is a later on invention (after the major occultation). It is a subject that has roots in and borrowed from the aammaa (ahlul sunnah). Here I am, a shia, who wants to access the teachings of the ahlul bayt (as) and you are pushing me towards the teachings of the ahlul sunnah? We have been discouraged by the imams (as) to take religion from them and follow their foot steps.

You think referring to Quran is sunni and not shia?

You think referring to a masoom is sunni and not shia?

I think my friend, your best bet is to read more before you make conclusions.

On 10/24/2017 at 1:39 PM, shuaybi said:

Your analogy is correct only if you replace the word "doctor" with "imam (as)". Everybody else is a "patient" (seeker of knowledge, taalib-e-ilm, student) in need of a cure (knowledge) from the real doctors (the imams (as)). 

Wrong.

Lets imagine I have an issue, I want the best answer today. We have already seen, someone like you who claims to go directly to hadith can mess it up and misunderstand it. So should I ask you or someone more knowledgeable? Do I have the option of asking a ma'soom right now? No. So what is the best thing I can do? Ask the most knowledgeable.

What is very frustrating is that I can guarantee you and every other person would love to ask the most knowledgeable person about every challenge they face outside of religion. But if its religion, no, lets have a guess myself. If it was an issue about your parents health, you would beg the most knowledgeable doctor about the answer, but if its religion ? no, guessing is fine. What does this say about your value on religion?

Its the most backward and hypocritical approach you can imagine. 

 

On 10/24/2017 at 1:39 PM, shuaybi said:

Thank you for shedding light on the alternative reading of the hadith.

 

My friend. I think its quite obvious to you and me, and anyone else reading this that you got it completely wrong. Im not here to score points or win battles. I just like to chat and learn.

The fact that you mis quoted the wording, then misunderstood the meaning highlights the dangers of lay people having a go at something that requires specialist knowledge and skills. 

Allah did not ask everyone to become experts. 

9|122|It is not advisable for the believers to march out altogether. Of every division that marches out, let a group remain behind, to gain understanding of the religion, and to notify their people when they have returned to them, that they may beware.

Now the issue is, if Allah asks a group to become experts and warn the others, should the others listen? Or should they do as you say, and go,

"No thanks, Im going to have a go at this myself, it doesnt matter than I have no training and very limited knowledge, I will just google a few things and have a guess"

As for the statements of the Aimma AS on this issue, despite the fact no proof of what is blatantly obvious is required, they have clarified it :

AL KAFI - H 97, Ch. 11, h3

Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn ‘Isa from al-Hassan ibn Mahbub from Ali ibn al-Ri’ab from abu ‘Ubayda al-Hadhdha’ from abu Ja’far, recipient of divine supreme covenant, who has said the following: “The angels of mercy and the angels of wickedness condemn those who give to people fatwas without knowledge and guidance. Such people will be held responsible for the sins of all those who have followed such fatwas.”

We dont have statements that say "dont give fatwa", we have lots and lots that say, "dont give fatwa without knowledge" , "dont give fatwa based on your opinion" etc.

On 10/24/2017 at 1:39 PM, shuaybi said:

Now let me ask you. Is this not what the prophet (s) and the imams (as) wanted us to do? For us to read their hadith, share the understanding and correct one another. What is wrong with this scenario? Even if I made a mistake, I am not asking (god forbid) people to follow me. I am not claiming responsibility of their aamaal. They all should demand proof, refer to and act upon the hadith. 

No, thats not what they asked us to do. Allah said in the Quran for a group to become experts and warn the others. The Aimma AS said follow the knowledgeable. What you are doing is following yourself, sure your not telling others to follow you. You are simply making taqleed of yourself. This is a disaster. If your not a doctor, would you like to have a go at your own heart by pass operation?

 

On 10/24/2017 at 1:39 PM, shuaybi said:

There are many hadith like the above. These hadith are applicable to all believers. None of them mention that the believers must first study the 10-15 disciplines of the mujtahid. If the mujtahids are going to monopolize knowledge of the ahadith, then for whom does the hadith such as above apply to?

Hold on.

I never said that lay people cant benefit from all hadith. Im just pointing out that legal rulings are a specialist field, and require specialist knowledge. There are hadith that even the most simple person can benefit from. There are also many ayas in Quran and statements by ma'soom that are critical in helping us understand our responsibility for our core faith, the usul al deen. 

I hope I have shed some light on the topic, if Im wrong, then please show me, I am happy to change my position on anything. 

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 الكافي: محمد بن يحيى، عن أحمد بن محمد، عن الحسن بن محبوب، عن جميل بن صالح عن محمد بن مسلم، عن أبي جعفر عليه السلام قال: إن الذي يعلم العلم منكم له أجر مثل أجر المتعلم وله الفضل عليه، فتعلموا العلم من حملة العلم وعلموه إخوانكم كما علمكموه العلماء

al-Kafi: Muhammad b. Yahya from Ahmad b. Muhammad from al-Hasan b. Mahbub from Jamil b. Salih from Muhammad b. Muslim from Abi Ja’far عليه السلام who said: the one who teaches the knowledge from among you has an equivalent reward with the student who seeks knowledge except that he (the teacher) has a degree over him (the student), so seek knowledge from the bearers of knowledge and teach it to your brothers in the same way as the scholars had taught it to you.

 

 الكافي: وعن محمد بن يحيى، عن أحمد بن محمد بن عيسى، عن الحسن بن محبوب، عن علي ابن رئاب، عن أبي عبيدة الحذاء، عن أبي جعفر عليه السلام قال: من أفتى الناس بغير علم ولا هدى لعنته ملائكة الرحمة وملائكة العذاب، ولحقه وزر من عمل بفتياه

al-Kafi: And from Muhammad b. Yahya from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. Isa from al-Hasan b. Mahbub from Ali b. Riab from Abi Ubayda al-Hadhdha from Abi Ja’far عليه السلام who said: whoever gives Fatwa to the people without knowledge or true guidance the angels of mercy do curse him and so do too the angels of punishment and the burden of the one who acts by his Fatwa attaches itself to him.

 

 اصول الكافي: عن علي، عن أبيه، عن ابن أبي عمير، وعن محمد بن يحيى، عن أحمد ابن محمد، عن ابن أبي عمير، عن سيف بن عميرة، عن أبي حمزة، عن أبي جعفر عليه السلام قال: عالم ينتفع بعلمه أفضل من سبعين ألف عابد

al-Kafi: From Ali from his father from Ibn Abi Umayr AND Muhammad b. Yahya from Ahmad b. Muhammad from Ibn Abi Umayr from Sayf b. Umayra from Abi Hamza from Abi Ja'far عليه السلام who said: the scholar whose knowledge benefits others is better than seventy thousand worshippers.

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On 10/25/2017 at 3:16 PM, iraqi_shia said:

Yes. You think anyone can simply pick up a hadith and know its meaning, relevance and application?

Lets be honest, 90% of Muslims cant even read Arabic properly, then there are those who intellect is lacking etc. The reality is that not everyone can become a top athlete, a professor of medicine, or a marja. 

Majority of shia population does taqlid because they lack intellect? 

I am not saying everyone must learn the Arabic language and memorize all the hadith. What is wrong with a system where there are experts of hadith? These experts lookup, translate and explain the hadith. The critical requirement here is that they present the original hadith. They bring people closer to the words of the masumeen (as). Their own opinions and personal statements (in matters of religion) have no value. Unfortunately, the mujtahids never present hadith even when the general public demands it from them. Just look at the original question of my post. Not one person has come forward with a hadith from their respective marja which establishes taqlid. No body asks for hadith from them simply because they won't provide it.

On 10/25/2017 at 3:16 PM, iraqi_shia said:

H 103, Ch. 11, h9 Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from Muhammad ibn ‘Isa from Yunus from Dawud ibn Farqad from one he narrated from ibn Shubruma (a judge in al-Kufa during the rule of al-Mansur) who has said the following:  “I never heard anything like a statement I heard from Imam abu ‘Abd Allah, recipient of divine supreme covenant, and it almost pierced my heart. The Imam, recipient of divine supreme covenant, said, ‘My father narrated from my great-great-greatgreat grandfather, the Holy Prophet, recipient of divine supreme covenant, who said, “Those who act on the basis of analogy will face their destruction and lead others to their destruction. Those who give fatwas (legal opinions) without knowing the abrogating and the abrogated (texts of the law), the clear text and that which requires interpretation, they will face destruction and lead others to their destruction.’” 

The believers at that time and after until now referred to the best experts in religion, either the Aimma AS themselves or the best educated. As I mentioned to you before, the Aimma AS would tell their followers to go and ask such and such in their town for rulings.

You are blind if you can't see that the very mujtahids you are following are being condemned in the above hadith. Is the fatwa of the mujtahid based on hadith or quran? If so why is it called a fatwa? A fatwa can only be issued by an infallible (as). Everyone else must rely on hadith. The Aimma (as) always asked people to refer to the narrators of their hadith. The ones who transmitted their words. Not on those who issued fatwas based on their own reasoning.

On 10/25/2017 at 3:16 PM, iraqi_shia said:

Faru Al Deen is what you can ask an expert on. Usul Al Deen, you can not refer to anyone, and you must become the expert in tauheed, adala, nabuwa, imama, ma'ad etc. 

So the majority of the population should rely on their weak intellect (your claim) to navigate through the myriads of complex and difficult usul/aqaid issues on their own. On the critical issues that salvation hinges upon. Is aqaid limited to mere high level understanding of tawhid, adalat, qayamat, etc? What about the hundreds of non-fiqh issues some of which I listed earlier? Where should one get guidance on them? What about the hadith of our imams (as) on the tafsir of the quran? There are tens of thousands of hadith that are non-fiqh related. Is the mujtahid guiding the people in this area? The shia population are on their own in this territory? Just for the remaining fiqh/legal issues they should resort to the mujtahid?

This artificial division of deen into usul and furu is a later development and not substantiated based on hadith. 

Abu Jafar (as) said: "Islam is based on five principles. They are: Prayer, Zakat, Fasting, Hajj and Wilayah. The call to none of the other principles has been as emphatic as it has been to al-Wilayah. People accepted the other four but they left aside this i.e. al-Wilayah. [Source: Al-Kafi Vol. 1, H 1480, CH 10, h 3]

On 10/25/2017 at 3:16 PM, iraqi_shia said:

Lets imagine I have an issue, I want the best answer today. We have already seen, someone like you who claims to go directly to hadith can mess it up and misunderstand it. So should I ask you or someone more knowledgeable? Do I have the option of asking a ma'soom right now? No. So what is the best thing I can do? Ask the most knowledgeable.

The best answer can be found in the hadith. Just ask your mujtahid to present you with that hadith and it's explanation.

On 10/25/2017 at 3:16 PM, iraqi_shia said:

Allah did not ask everyone to become experts. 

9|122|It is not advisable for the believers to march out altogether. Of every division that marches out, let a group remain behind, to gain understanding of the religion, and to notify their people when they have returned to them, that they may beware.

Now the issue is, if Allah asks a group to become experts and warn the others, should the others listen? Or should they do as you say, and go,

You are ignoring hundreds of hadith which mention that seeking knowledge is an obligation on every believer. As for the above verse, the imams (as) have explained it in detail. It is about a group of people who should leave in search of the next imam (as). How do you imply from the hadith that imams (as) are asking for a single dedicated group of people to spend their entire lives in this task? From time to time, different groups can be formed to perform the task that the hadith is referring to.

On 10/25/2017 at 3:16 PM, iraqi_shia said:

What you are doing is following yourself, sure your not telling others to follow you. You are simply making taqleed of yourself. This is a disaster. If your not a doctor, would you like to have a go at your own heart by pass operation?

No. I am making my best effort to act on hadith-e-thaqalayn and to follow the ahlul bayt (as). As for you, you don't even know if your mujtahid is issuing fatwas based on hadith or his own qiyas. Let's meet on the day of judgement to see whom the masumeen (as) will be pleased with.
 

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shuaybi,

I get the impression, if i was to leave, you would just continue and start arguing with yourself. 

The issue is not new, and you have brought nothing new. 

14 hours ago, shuaybi said:

Majority of shia population does taqlid because they lack intellect? 

 

 

No. They lack knowledge, some may lack intellect. Its like me saying, everyone can become the fastest 100m runner in the world. Of course this is false. Some people do not have the ability or training. Hence, why Allah said some become expert. Allah didnt say to give up and just do as they say, learn, but listen to the expert.

 

14 hours ago, shuaybi said:

What is wrong with a system where there are experts of hadith? These experts lookup, translate and explain the hadith. The critical requirement here is that they present the original hadith. They bring people closer to the words of the masumeen (as). Their own opinions and personal statements (in matters of religion) have no value.

What do you think happens now then? You think its all rai and thann with some qiyas mixed in? 

This is the danger, you do not understand shia fiqh. I have said this to you several times, your arguing against a position that doesnt even exist. You seem to be under the (false) impression that shia ulama just copy Abu Hanifa usul al fiqh and take a guess at what is right or wrong. This is really a massive injustice and very disappointing.

14 hours ago, shuaybi said:

You are blind if you can't see that the very mujtahids you are following are being condemned in the above hadith.

My dear friend, you were not able to copy and paste one hadith correctly, then you even got the meaning of that one hadith wrong. You are not in a position to talk about the position of mujtahids. Even the lowest of whom have spent a decade studying. Just have some manners and please think before you type.

Would you say to a doctor you know more because you googled one medical topic? come on, think.

14 hours ago, shuaybi said:

As for the above verse, the imams (as) have explained it in detail. It is about a group of people who should leave in search of the next imam (as). How do you imply from the hadith that imams (as) are asking for a single dedicated group of people to spend their entire lives in this task? From time to time, different groups can be formed to perform the task that the hadith is referring to.

I presented many narrations. None said that. Now your going down the slippery slope of twisting narrations to fit your theory. I copied the narrations in blue, remember?

 

14 hours ago, shuaybi said:

So the majority of the population should rely on their weak intellect (your claim) to navigate through the myriads of complex and difficult usul/aqaid issues on their own. On the critical issues that salvation hinges upon. Is aqaid limited to mere high level understanding of tawhid, adalat, qayamat, etc? What about the hundreds of non-fiqh issues some of which I listed earlier? Where should one get guidance on them? What about the hadith of our imams (as) on the tafsir of the quran? There are tens of thousands of hadith that are non-fiqh related. Is the mujtahid guiding the people in this area? The shia population are on their own in this territory? Just for the remaining fiqh/legal issues they should resort to the mujtahid?

Not sure why you are struggling here. Matters of BELIEF is something you as an individual are responsible for. Of course you can read what experts have said, but ultimately its up to you to formulate your own belief and have evidences for it. 

Matters of the law is something that one can refer to a legal expert, eg a religious lawer eg a scholar. 

15 hours ago, shuaybi said:

The best answer can be found in the hadith. Just ask your mujtahid to present you with that hadith and it's explanation.

What about Quran? What about Ijma? What about Aql? 

 

15 hours ago, shuaybi said:

No. I am making my best effort to act on hadith-e-thaqalayn and to follow the ahlul bayt (as). As for you, you don't even know if your mujtahid is issuing fatwas based on hadith or his own qiyas. Let's meet on the day of judgement to see whom the masumeen (as) will be pleased with.

Good for you. But your wrong.

We do know how mujithad deduce the rulings, just because you dont, doesnt mean its a secret or unknowable. 

I can definitely see know that the reason why your so confused about shia fiqh is because you think its the same methodology as sunni. This is simply not the case. I think if you actually studied usul al fiqh and mantiq you would realise that the shia system starts with a known rulings and works to the specific, so there is no guess work or opinion. The sunni system is different. 

My advice to you is try and go to a Shia centre which is well regarded and has knowledgeable scholars there and discuss the matter and try to enroll on some courses. It seems that despite my best efforts I can not help you any further.

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4 hours ago, iraqi_shia said:

I can definitely see know that the reason why your so confused about shia fiqh is because you think its the same methodology as sunni. This is simply not the case. I think if you actually studied usul al fiqh and mantiq you would realise that the shia system starts with a known rulings and works to the specific, so there is no guess work or opinion. The sunni system is different. 

t My advice to you is try and go to a Shia centre which is well regarded and has knowledgeable scholars there and discuss the matter and try to enroll on some courses. It seems that despite my best efforts I can not help you any further.

Thank you for your help so far. I learnt a lot from this discussion.

Holy Quran 14:4:

فَيُضِلُّ اللَّهُ مَن يَشاءُ وَيَهدي مَن يَشاءُ ۚ وَهُوَ العَزيزُ الحَكيمُ

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15 hours ago, shuaybi said:

Thank you for your help so far. I learnt a lot from this discussion.

Holy Quran 14:4:

فَيُضِلُّ اللَّهُ مَن يَشاءُ وَيَهدي مَن يَشاءُ ۚ وَهُوَ العَزيزُ الحَكيمُ

So by that you think it means we can all become marja? is that your guess at the meaning?

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