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Is Taqlid purely an aqli daleel near the Maraje?

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I recently came across the risalah "Laws of Islam" By Āyatullāh Sayyid Muḥammad Taqī al-Mudarrisī al-Ḥusaynī (http://almodarresi.com/en/books/pdf/TheLawsofIslam.pdf). What is different about this risalah is that it has reference to hadith in every section. However, in the section of Taqlid, there are no references to hadith or Quran.

I am trying to understand if near the Maraje, is Taqlid established through hadith/quran or is it simply an aqli daleel? Are there any official statements of the Maraje where they have proved Taqlid with the support of Hadith and Quran? If so, can you please point me to those resources i.e. the books/statements of the Maraje where they have quoted the hadith/quran?

Edited by shuaybi

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50 minutes ago, shuaybi said:

I recently came across the risalah "Laws of Islam" By Āyatullāh Sayyid Muḥammad Taqī al-Mudarrisī al-Ḥusaynī (http://almodarresi.com/en/books/pdf/TheLawsofIslam.pdf). What is different about this risalah is that it has reference to hadith in every section. However, in the section of Taqlid, there are no references to hadith or Quran.

I am trying to understand if near the Maraje, is Taqlid established through hadith/quran or is it simply an aqli daleel? Are there any official statements of the Maraje where they have proved Taqlid with the support of Hadith and Quran? If so, can you please point me to those resources i.e. the books/statements of the Maraje where they have quoted the hadith/quran?

These marja knows islam better than anyone else. They have studied fiqh and they are like fiqh masters. When you get sick you go to doctor. why do you go to doctor? because you know he has studied medicine and he should know how to cure my disease. Same thing with marjas when you have fiqh question you go to them so they could guide you in right direction. 

Edited by Ron_Burgundy

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:salam:

'Aqli is one way to put it, but since the term can also be misunderstood for philosophical reasoning, a better and more appropriate term to use is 'Uqalayee (something that rational people do naturally). This is the primary evidence used for the permissibility and necessity of Taqleed.

After this, some Qur'anic verses or narrations can be used to strengthen one's argument (they will not be sufficient on their own, because each of these can be critiqued) - such as the verse that says ask the Ahl al-Dhikr, or narrations that suggest one should ask and prefer an 'Alim over a non-'Alim, or the verse and narrations that talk about doing Tafaqquh (gaining deep insight) of the religion imply that those who do not do such a thing would be referring to those who do this Tafaqquh.

Wasalam

Edited by Ibn al-Hussain

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2 hours ago, shuaybi said:

I recently came across the risalah "Laws of Islam" By Āyatullāh Sayyid Muḥammad Taqī al-Mudarrisī al-Ḥusaynī (http://almodarresi.com/en/books/pdf/TheLawsofIslam.pdf). What is different about this risalah is that it has reference to hadith in every section. However, in the section of Taqlid, there are no references to hadith or Quran.

I am trying to understand if near the Maraje, is Taqlid established through hadith/quran or is it simply an aqli daleel? Are there any official statements of the Maraje where they have proved Taqlid with the support of Hadith and Quran? If so, can you please point me to those resources i.e. the books/statements of the Maraje where they have quoted the hadith/quran?

The whole nature is a Hadith e Qudsi before you brother. Every animal Kingdom has a leader. Lion, ants, hyenas and humans. Even sun is leader of planetary system. Likewise, in every field, we have experts and in fiqh those are Mujtahid. So it's simple.

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2 hours ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

After this, some Qur'anic verses or narrations can be used to strengthen one's argument

You mentioned that Quranic verses and narrations CAN be used to strengthen one's argument. Has any Marja actually used them? 

If so, can you (or someone) point me to their official statements/books/resources which actually use Quranic verses and narrations to support/strengthen the fundamental laws of Taqleed. By the fundamental laws I mean the three options from which it is obligatory to choose one:

  1. Do taqleed of a mujtahid
  2. Become a mujtahid yourself
  3. Act on precaution/ihtiyat

I understand there are rational reasons for the above. However, I am looking for official documentation from the Maraje where, in addition to rational reasons, they have cited hadith and Quran.

Edited by shuaybi

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6 hours ago, Ron_Burgundy said:

These marja knows islam better than anyone else. They have studied fiqh and they are like fiqh masters. When you get sick you go to doctor. why do you go to doctor? because you know he has studied medicine and he should know how to cure my disease. Same thing with marjas when you have fiqh question you go to them so they could guide you in right direction. 

I hate this analogy. When a doctor makes an error like misdiagnosing a patient , the mere fact that he's a doctor doesn't stop the illness. Doctors are also meant to explain your illness and treatment to you, it's just as important as providing a solution. You've also misunderstood taqlid. They don't teach you the religion in an evidence based way like in medicine, they literally give you a set of laws and the doctrine posits that it is obligatory for you to follow, their word is binding.

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3 hours ago, shuaybi said:

You mentioned that Quranic verses and narrations CAN be used to strengthen one's argument. Has any Marja actually used them? 

Yes of course they have. You will find these discussions in Istidlali books on al-Ijtihad wa al-Taqleed (there are too many out there) or taqrirat (class notes taken by students) of the jurists from their higher classes. These generally require some technical knowledge for one to be able to understand them. For example, for the taqrirat of Sayyid Sistani's discussion you can refer this book here: http://taghrirat.net/ketab/ejtehad-taghrirat.net.pdf

Wasalam

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On 10/6/2017 at 4:15 PM, Ibn al-Hussain said:

Yes of course they have. You will find these discussions in Istidlali books on al-Ijtihad wa al-Taqleed (there are too many out there) or taqrirat (class notes taken by students) of the jurists from their higher classes. These generally require some technical knowledge for one to be able to understand them. For example, for the taqrirat of Sayyid Sistani's discussion you can refer this book here: http://taghrirat.net/ketab/ejtehad-taghrirat.net.pdf

Does the book above have any reference to hadith on Taqlid? If so can you please translate those specific hadith into english and quote them?

I guess my question is simple. Have you ever asked your Marja to provide you the hadith based on which the system of Taqlid is established. I am looking for the official statements/responses of the Maraje themselves - and not the answers of the followers. I don't find any hadith references in their official risalahs. Including the one recently produced by Syed Mudarrisi (http://almodarresi.com/en/books/pdf/TheLawsofIslam.pdf). He quoted hadith in all the sections except in the section of Taqlid.

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12 hours ago, shuaybi said:

Does the book above have any reference to hadith on Taqlid? If so can you please translate those specific hadith into english and quote them?

I guess my question is simple. Have you ever asked your Marja to provide you the hadith based on which the system of Taqlid is established. I am looking for the official statements/responses of the Maraje themselves - and not the answers of the followers. I don't find any hadith references in their official risalahs. Including the one recently produced by Syed Mudarrisi (http://almodarresi.com/en/books/pdf/TheLawsofIslam.pdf). He quoted hadith in all the sections except in the section of Taqlid.

That is because there is a difference between most modern day risalas - which tend to be simplified - and actual Fiqh books dwelving into arguements regarding x rulings by citing evidence to prove their point.

Nonetheless there are some books that are out there which have a considerable amount of discussion in them. Sayyed Al-Khoei's Minhaj Al-Saliheen (a risala) does go into discussions regarding certain issues and cites evidence sometimes.

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41 minutes ago, E.L King said:

Nonetheless there are some books that are out there which have a considerable amount of discussion in them. Sayyed Al-Khoei's Minhaj Al-Saliheen (a risala) does go into discussions regarding certain issues and cites evidence sometimes

Have you read those books? If so, can you provide me quotations from the book on the hadith that they have used to support the concept of Taqlid?

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20 hours ago, IbnMariam said:

I hate this analogy. When a doctor makes an error like misdiagnosing a patient , the mere fact that he's a doctor doesn't stop the illness. Doctors are also meant to explain your illness and treatment to you, it's just as important as providing a solution. You've also misunderstood taqlid. They don't teach you the religion in an evidence based way like in medicine, they literally give you a set of laws and the doctrine posits that it is obligatory for you to follow, their word is binding.

Thank you IbnMariam. This doctor analogy is fundamentally flawed at multiple levels. It is a trap for the simpletons. Someday I will write about it in more detail. Right now I don't want to distract this thread from my main question.

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19 minutes ago, shuaybi said:

Have you read those books? If so, can you provide me quotations from the book on the hadith that they have used to support the concept of Taqlid?

Sorry, I thought you were talking about books which discuss Fiqhi topics broadly not just specifically the issue of taqlid. My bad brother.

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What I find ironic is that even if there is a compelling argument for taqlid based on the texts, it seems that nobody apart from incredibly learned scholars knows what it is. Not even the proponents of it who have some understanding of the texts know what it is. I've lost count of the number of times I or others have asked for justification and received vague responses, and references of certain narrations of verses which don't actually prove the claims made. That somebody who is not a faqeeh has to blindly follow the most learned scholar, and that scholar's fatawa are a proof upon that person, and their actions, their a'maal, without this blind acceptance are invalid. For example:

On 10/6/2017 at 9:42 AM, Ibn al-Hussain said:

:salam:

'Aqli is one way to put it, but since the term can also be misunderstood for philosophical reasoning, a better and more appropriate term to use is 'Uqalayee (something that rational people do naturally). This is the primary evidence used for the permissibility and necessity of Taqleed.

After this, some Qur'anic verses or narrations can be used to strengthen one's argument (they will not be sufficient on their own, because each of these can be critiqued) - such as the verse that says ask the Ahl al-Dhikr, or narrations that suggest one should ask and prefer an 'Alim over a non-'Alim, or the verse and narrations that talk about doing Tafaqquh (gaining deep insight) of the religion imply that those who do not do such a thing would be referring to those who do this Tafaqquh.

Wasalam

Ahl al-dhikr are the ahlulbayt. http://www.alseraj.net/maktaba/kotob/hadith/kafi1/html/ara/books/al-kafi-1/84.html

How did you derive from this ayah that during the time of the ghayba, one is to blindly follow the fatawa of the scholar who is the most learned, because the most learned individuals of each time, collectively, are ahl al-dhikr? As for the rest, please provide sources and explain how they collectively justify the common rules of taqlid that we see from various maraaji'.

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On 10/6/2017 at 8:29 AM, shuaybi said:

I recently came across the risalah "Laws of Islam" By Āyatullāh Sayyid Muḥammad Taqī al-Mudarrisī al-Ḥusaynī (http://almodarresi.com/en/books/pdf/TheLawsofIslam.pdf). What is different about this risalah is that it has reference to hadith in every section. However, in the section of Taqlid, there are no references to hadith or Quran.

I am trying to understand if near the Maraje, is Taqlid established through hadith/quran or is it simply an aqli daleel? Are there any official statements of the Maraje where they have proved Taqlid with the support of Hadith and Quran? If so, can you please point me to those resources i.e. the books/statements of the Maraje where they have quoted the hadith/quran?

Following a Mujtahid

1. It is necessary for a Muslim to believe in the fundamentals of faith on the basis of proof and he cannot follow anyone in this respect i.e. he cannot accept he word of another with regard to the fundamentals without demanding proof. However, in order to act on Islamic code (except in those matters which are considered by all to be indisputable e.g. the obligatory nature of the five daily prayers, fasting during the holy month of Ramadan etc.) a person must adopt one of the following methods:

https://www.al-islam.org/islamic-laws-ayatullah-abul-qasim-al-khui/taqlid#following-mujtahid

I know what you are trying to ask, do you have any issue with above? 

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http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235052794-hadith-on-black-clothes-in-muharram/?page=3&tab=comments#comment-3087228

This is what you said in the post referenced above.

Quote

Even he is not 100% sure. Religion is based on conviction (yaqeen) not doubt.

Above discussion is not about the Fundamentals of the Religion. What you comment Tells me that, you really don't understand the difference between, Faith and Acts? otherwise you comment was really off the marks.

Analogy of the Physician was conceptual, but you are a technical person, so you missed the mark again. And engaged in technical stuff. Conceptually, Unless you are an expert, you refer to an expert( Physician, engineer, mechanic lawyer). 

"1. It is necessary for a Muslim to believe in the fundamentals of faith on the basis of proof and he cannot follow anyone in this respect i.e. he cannot accept he word of another with regard to the fundamentals without demanding proof.

However, in order to act on Islamic code (except in those matters which are considered by all to be indisputable e.g. the obligatory nature of the five daily prayers, fasting during the holy month of Ramadan etc.) a person must adopt one of the following methods:

https://www.al-islam.org/islamic-laws-ayatullah-abul-qasim-al-khui/taqlid#following-mujtahid

In this case, Its only non life threatening issues, and the expert takes the burden of proof. Your argument on the day of judgement. Or just be an expert yourself. 

Read and contemplate on the reasoning here. 

http://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/question/fa4809

https://www.al-islam.org/articles/taqlid-meaning-and-reality-sayyid-muhammad-rizvi

And, No I do not feel it is necessary, given the rational, logical and intellectual proofs to ask for something that makes common sense. 

You are using an example of one scholar, Most do not provide details on rulings and there are reason that are outlined in the two posts above. They are valid reasons for  a layman like me. 

Here its a three part series, part one

Your question indicates that you need to research the subject matter. 

Plus, the way you have constructed the question is not valid.

You need to ask the Jurist, this question in the form you are asking us. Contact them, their contact is on their websites. Because you question is geared to them. 

You, can ask, us why do we follow, and what is the rational behind this would be appropriate and knowledgeable people and layman like me have given you our reasons. Why we follow it. 

Edited by S.M.H.A.

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On 10/6/2017 at 3:57 PM, IbnMariam said:

I hate this analogy. When a doctor makes an error like misdiagnosing a patient , the mere fact that he's a doctor doesn't stop the illness. Doctors are also meant to explain your illness and treatment to you, it's just as important as providing a solution. You've also misunderstood taqlid. They don't teach you the religion in an evidence based way like in medicine, they literally give you a set of laws and the doctrine posits that it is obligatory for you to follow, their word is binding.

You need to understand one thing. tey are humans life us they are not masoom. And they tell you what could be the  law. 

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5 hours ago, Ron_Burgundy said:

You need to understand one thing. tey are humans life us they are not masoom. And they tell you what could be the  law. 

Several points, although I feel like a broken record:

Most give us the following guidelines for following islamic law: 

1. Either you are a mujtahid and capable of deducing laws from the texts, or you're not a mujtahid and not capable of doing so. In the case of not being a mujtahid, you either exercise precaution between the rulings of the mujtahideen, or you follow the most learned mujtahid who tells us what he believes (without doubt) the laws are.

2. If you do not act within these guidelines, your actions ie your prayers, fasting, wudhu, ghusl, zakat, hajj, umrah etc are all void.

3. You are to take these rulings without investigating the arguments for them. They are literally a proof upon you by virtue of being the saying of the most learned mujtahid. No need to look into the narrations of the ahlulbayt.

 

I have a few problems with the guidelines above:

1) I have yet to see justification for them in the ahadith

2) They suggest that one can fulfill their duty of obeying the imams without even reading their words. It makes no sense. If you haven't read the words of the imams, how do you know what their commands are? How does the declaration of a famous fallible man I don't even know ensure that I know I'm following my imams? 

3) If these guidelines are clearly from the ahlulbayt, then why have they only been adhered to and practised in recent history? 


Brother, what you've said is actually part of the argument against taqlid, they are not ma'soom, so how can one justify blindly following any of them? The arguments for taqlid tend to cite various verses and narrations, yet under scrutiny, these arguments tend not to justify the position of taqlid as is commonly known. For example, above, the brother cited a verse of the qur'an regarding ahl al-dhikr, but when you look at the narrations, it's reported from multiple imams across several chains that they themselves are ahl al-dhikr. There's no mention of mujtahideen or the ghayba in relation to this verse, and you can't just assume this either as the true explanation and understanding of the qur'an is with the ahlulbayt.

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying we should throw the works of recent scholars down the toilet, and that they are useless charlatans. They are all well beyond my level, and it stands to reason that a student takes knowledge from a teacher. Some of you may have even seen me cite Sistani when discussing an issue without reference to the ahadith. I'm willing to consider that there is an irrefutable argument that I am not aware of for taqlid and it's conditions, but I've yet to see it. The arguments I have seen time and again are full of holes, and those holes never get plugged. 

Edited by IbnMariam

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On 10/9/2017 at 1:21 AM, S.M.H.A. said:

Your question indicates that you need to research the subject matter. 

Plus, the way you have constructed the question is not valid.

You need to ask the Jurist, this question in the form you are asking us. Contact them, their contact is on their websites. Because you question is geared to them. 

You, can ask, us why do we follow, and what is the rational behind this would be appropriate and knowledgeable people and layman like me have given you our reasons. Why we follow it. 

Ok. Is it fair to say that at this point you don't know how your jurist has proved the validity of the 3 laws of taqlid (become a mujtahid, remain a muqallid or exercise ihtiyat). Whether he has proved it through reason or hadith? You also need to research further.

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On 10/7/2017 at 1:10 PM, IbnMariam said:

What I find ironic is that even if there is a compelling argument for taqlid based on the texts, it seems that nobody apart from incredibly learned scholars knows what it is. Not even the proponents of it who have some understanding of the texts know what it is. I've lost count of the number of times I or others have asked for justification and received vague responses, and references of certain narrations of verses which don't actually prove the claims made

I would like to know which hadith are quoted in the "compelling arguments" of those who allow their taqleed to be done.

On 10/7/2017 at 1:10 PM, IbnMariam said:

True - without any shadow of doubt.

Edited by shuaybi

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3 minutes ago, shuaybi said:

I would be really interested in that compelling argument directly from those who allow their taqleed to be done.

:bismillah:

فَلَوْلاَ نَفَرَ مِن كُلِّ فِرْقَةٍ مِّنْهُمْ طَآئِفَةٌ لِّيَتَفَقَّهُواْ فِي الدِّينِ وَلِيُنذِرُواْ قَوْمَهُمْ إِذَا رَجَعُواْ إِلَيْهِمْ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَحْذَرُونَ

"Why should not then a company from every party from among them go forth that they may apply themselves to obtain understanding in religion, and that they may warn their people when they come back to them that they may be cautious" (9:122)

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1 minute ago, Salsabeel said:

"Why should not then a company from every party from among them go forth that they may apply themselves to obtain understanding in religion, and that they may warn their people when they come back to them that they may be cautious" (9:122)

Is the above ayat quoted officially by the Maraje? Can you provide me a link/reference to a statement from them where they have used the above ayat as proof of Taqlid?

(As a side note: have you ever referred to the explanation provided by the imams (as) on the above verse or have you done your own personal interpretation?) 

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Just now, shuaybi said:

Is the above ayat quoted officially by the Maraje? Can you provide me a link/reference to a statement from them where they have used the above ayat as proof of Taqlid?

You will not get the answer of your question on ShiaChat. Better for you to directly contact Ayatullah Sistani or Ayatullah Khamenei or any other Marja-e-Taqleed.

The referred verse is a Quranic evidence of Fiqh & Faqeeh as the word "Yatafaqqahu" has been used in there. The reason of obtaining knowledge/understanding is also mentioned in the verse. For me, it is sufficient to follow a person i.e., "Faqeeh" who is doing the duty of Prophet as mentioned in the verse in the word "leyunthiru"

As per a famous hadith "Scholars are the inheritors of Prophets", so it is better to follow those who have obtained knowledge/understanding of religion.

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27 minutes ago, shuaybi said:

(As a side note: have you ever referred to the explanation provided by the imams (as) on the above verse or have you done your own personal interpretation?) 

As an open note: Can you provide me the reference of book/books which contain the explanation given by Imam (s) of all 6236 verses of Quran?

If you are unable to provide any reference, let me know is there any prohibition in doing "tafakkur" on the verses of Quran? or is there any prohibition in doing "tafakkur" on the systems created by Allah (and that includes the system of guidance)?

Edited by Salsabeel

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      Calling the efforts of the officials insufficient, The Leader of the Revolution mentioned: "The authorities from different departments worked hard; without them, there would be many more problems; but, I am not content as of yet." In the end, Ayatollah Khamenei hoped a better future for the people of Kermanshah, stating: "Better times are in front of the people of Kermanshah, and hopefully God gives us the opportunity to come here when the city is built, better than before the earthquake."   The Leader of the Revolution, a few minutes ago, in the earthquake-affected village of Quic said:
      "I hope that God places His peace and patience in your hearts. You have many obstacles; even before the earthquake, you had many obstacles, now the earthquake added on new ones. I hope that, because of this earthquake, all problems of this village, neighboring villages, and the region are reduced. I am hopeful and look forward to this. I advised the officials, constantly, since early this morning; and, good measures have been taken: armed forces and other groups have done great work. I will continue to supervise and look forward to seeing better efforts, so major parts of your problems may be resolved. I am glad to meet your devout, happy, and enthusiastic youth and people here. May God protect you all."  
    • Gen. Soleimani congratulates Ayatollah Khamenei, Muslim world for end of ISIS https://en.isna.ir/news/96083017322/ Tehran (ISNA) - In a letter to the Supreme Leader of the Islamic Revolution Ayatollah Seyyed Ali Khamenei Khamenei, the Commander of IRGC Quds Force Major General Qassem Soleimani announced the end of ISIS's domination over Islamic lands.   Following the historic victory of Iraq and Syria's resistance movement over the sedition of Takfiri terrorism and the end of ISIS's domination, which manifested by lowering the flag of this American-Zionist group at Abu Kumal--the last key area in the hands of ISIS--General Soleimani issued an important message to Ayatollah Khamenei. The following is the full text of Major-General Soleimani's message to Ayatollah Khamenei: In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful "Indeed, we have opened for you (Prophet Muhammad) a clear opening." Quran: 1, 48) To the dear and brave Leader of the Islamic Revolution, Ayatollah Khamenei: Salamun Alaikum, Six years ago, a dangerous plot like the ones at the time of Amir al-Mu'minin (as), which prevented the Muslims from truly understanding the Pure Islam of Muhammad (pbuh), this time, mixed with the poison of Zionism and arrogance, covered the Islamic world like a devastating storm. This devastating and poisonous sedition was created by the enemies of Islam with an aim of initiating widespread war within the Islamic world and a fight among Muslims. The evil movement, under the name of the "Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant," managed, in the early months, to deceive tens of thousands of Muslim youth from both countries, causing a very dangerous crisis for the influential and crucial countries of the Islamic world: "Iraq" and "Syria." They occupied hundreds of thousands of square kilometers of land from these countries along with thousands of villages, towns, and provincial centers; they destroyed thousands of factories, manufactures, and major infrastructure of these countries--including roads, bridges, refineries, wells, gas and oil lines, and power plants; they destroyed or burned important cities with valuable historical monuments and national civilizations by bombing them. Although it is not possible to calculate all the damage caused yet, the preliminary investigation estimates damages to be around $500 billion. In this event, there were extremely horrendous crimes that could not be shown, which included the following: decapitation of children, skinning men alive before their families, taking young girls and women hostage and raping them, burning people alive and group massacres of hundreds of young people. People of these countries, astounded by this poisonous storm, became part of them or victims of the takfiri criminals, and millions of other Muslims left their homes and were displaced throughout other cities and countries. In this dark sedition, thousands of mosques and sacred centers of Muslims were destroyed or ruined, and sometimes a mosque along with the Imam and all the people in it were blown up. More than 6,000 young people, deceived in the name of defending Islam, blew themselves up by way of suicide bombings, using explosive vehicles at city squares, mosques, schools, even hospitals and public places of Muslims; as a result of these criminal acts, tens of thousands of innocent men, women, and children were martyred. To be continued https://en.isna.ir/news/96083017322/Gen-Soleimani-congratulates-Ayatollah-Khamenei-Muslim-world
    • Yes, that's what Khoei says. 
    • There are many good people in this world, i have suffered same what you have. Its not a big deal i think most of the people have gone through this. you need to try to ignore this stuff and continue doing gud.  There is a saying of imam ali a.s "The best revenge is to improve yourself", there are many other sayings by imam ali a.s you can google them, this will inspire you to do gud to others. Our ahlulbaith a.s has always done gud to everyone and never cared about others. YA Ali madad.
    • If sense perception is combined with either reasoning or intellectual intuition (which you can think of as the fitrah for now) then yes it can lead to such realizations. But sense perception alone - devoid of these higher faculties, is the definition of dunyawi. It is the level at which the mushrikeen see reality, so obviously it is not sufficient to bring belief. Belief requires sense perception along with thought and/or the awakening of the higher intellect.
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