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Is Taqlid purely an aqli daleel near the Maraje?

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I recently came across the risalah "Laws of Islam" By Āyatullāh Sayyid Muḥammad Taqī al-Mudarrisī al-Ḥusaynī (http://almodarresi.com/en/books/pdf/TheLawsofIslam.pdf). What is different about this risalah is that it has reference to hadith in every section. However, in the section of Taqlid, there are no references to hadith or Quran.

I am trying to understand if near the Maraje, is Taqlid established through hadith/quran or is it simply an aqli daleel? Are there any official statements of the Maraje where they have proved Taqlid with the support of Hadith and Quran? If so, can you please point me to those resources i.e. the books/statements of the Maraje where they have quoted the hadith/quran?

Edited by shuaybi

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50 minutes ago, shuaybi said:

I recently came across the risalah "Laws of Islam" By Āyatullāh Sayyid Muḥammad Taqī al-Mudarrisī al-Ḥusaynī (http://almodarresi.com/en/books/pdf/TheLawsofIslam.pdf). What is different about this risalah is that it has reference to hadith in every section. However, in the section of Taqlid, there are no references to hadith or Quran.

I am trying to understand if near the Maraje, is Taqlid established through hadith/quran or is it simply an aqli daleel? Are there any official statements of the Maraje where they have proved Taqlid with the support of Hadith and Quran? If so, can you please point me to those resources i.e. the books/statements of the Maraje where they have quoted the hadith/quran?

These marja knows islam better than anyone else. They have studied fiqh and they are like fiqh masters. When you get sick you go to doctor. why do you go to doctor? because you know he has studied medicine and he should know how to cure my disease. Same thing with marjas when you have fiqh question you go to them so they could guide you in right direction. 

Edited by Ron_Burgundy

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:salam:

'Aqli is one way to put it, but since the term can also be misunderstood for philosophical reasoning, a better and more appropriate term to use is 'Uqalayee (something that rational people do naturally). This is the primary evidence used for the permissibility and necessity of Taqleed.

After this, some Qur'anic verses or narrations can be used to strengthen one's argument (they will not be sufficient on their own, because each of these can be critiqued) - such as the verse that says ask the Ahl al-Dhikr, or narrations that suggest one should ask and prefer an 'Alim over a non-'Alim, or the verse and narrations that talk about doing Tafaqquh (gaining deep insight) of the religion imply that those who do not do such a thing would be referring to those who do this Tafaqquh.

Wasalam

Edited by Ibn al-Hussain

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2 hours ago, shuaybi said:

I recently came across the risalah "Laws of Islam" By Āyatullāh Sayyid Muḥammad Taqī al-Mudarrisī al-Ḥusaynī (http://almodarresi.com/en/books/pdf/TheLawsofIslam.pdf). What is different about this risalah is that it has reference to hadith in every section. However, in the section of Taqlid, there are no references to hadith or Quran.

I am trying to understand if near the Maraje, is Taqlid established through hadith/quran or is it simply an aqli daleel? Are there any official statements of the Maraje where they have proved Taqlid with the support of Hadith and Quran? If so, can you please point me to those resources i.e. the books/statements of the Maraje where they have quoted the hadith/quran?

The whole nature is a Hadith e Qudsi before you brother. Every animal Kingdom has a leader. Lion, ants, hyenas and humans. Even sun is leader of planetary system. Likewise, in every field, we have experts and in fiqh those are Mujtahid. So it's simple.

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2 hours ago, Ibn al-Hussain said:

After this, some Qur'anic verses or narrations can be used to strengthen one's argument

You mentioned that Quranic verses and narrations CAN be used to strengthen one's argument. Has any Marja actually used them? 

If so, can you (or someone) point me to their official statements/books/resources which actually use Quranic verses and narrations to support/strengthen the fundamental laws of Taqleed. By the fundamental laws I mean the three options from which it is obligatory to choose one:

  1. Do taqleed of a mujtahid
  2. Become a mujtahid yourself
  3. Act on precaution/ihtiyat

I understand there are rational reasons for the above. However, I am looking for official documentation from the Maraje where, in addition to rational reasons, they have cited hadith and Quran.

Edited by shuaybi

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6 hours ago, Ron_Burgundy said:

These marja knows islam better than anyone else. They have studied fiqh and they are like fiqh masters. When you get sick you go to doctor. why do you go to doctor? because you know he has studied medicine and he should know how to cure my disease. Same thing with marjas when you have fiqh question you go to them so they could guide you in right direction. 

I hate this analogy. When a doctor makes an error like misdiagnosing a patient , the mere fact that he's a doctor doesn't stop the illness. Doctors are also meant to explain your illness and treatment to you, it's just as important as providing a solution. You've also misunderstood taqlid. They don't teach you the religion in an evidence based way like in medicine, they literally give you a set of laws and the doctrine posits that it is obligatory for you to follow, their word is binding.

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3 hours ago, shuaybi said:

You mentioned that Quranic verses and narrations CAN be used to strengthen one's argument. Has any Marja actually used them? 

Yes of course they have. You will find these discussions in Istidlali books on al-Ijtihad wa al-Taqleed (there are too many out there) or taqrirat (class notes taken by students) of the jurists from their higher classes. These generally require some technical knowledge for one to be able to understand them. For example, for the taqrirat of Sayyid Sistani's discussion you can refer this book here: http://taghrirat.net/ketab/ejtehad-taghrirat.net.pdf

Wasalam

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On 10/6/2017 at 4:15 PM, Ibn al-Hussain said:

Yes of course they have. You will find these discussions in Istidlali books on al-Ijtihad wa al-Taqleed (there are too many out there) or taqrirat (class notes taken by students) of the jurists from their higher classes. These generally require some technical knowledge for one to be able to understand them. For example, for the taqrirat of Sayyid Sistani's discussion you can refer this book here: http://taghrirat.net/ketab/ejtehad-taghrirat.net.pdf

Does the book above have any reference to hadith on Taqlid? If so can you please translate those specific hadith into english and quote them?

I guess my question is simple. Have you ever asked your Marja to provide you the hadith based on which the system of Taqlid is established. I am looking for the official statements/responses of the Maraje themselves - and not the answers of the followers. I don't find any hadith references in their official risalahs. Including the one recently produced by Syed Mudarrisi (http://almodarresi.com/en/books/pdf/TheLawsofIslam.pdf). He quoted hadith in all the sections except in the section of Taqlid.

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12 hours ago, shuaybi said:

Does the book above have any reference to hadith on Taqlid? If so can you please translate those specific hadith into english and quote them?

I guess my question is simple. Have you ever asked your Marja to provide you the hadith based on which the system of Taqlid is established. I am looking for the official statements/responses of the Maraje themselves - and not the answers of the followers. I don't find any hadith references in their official risalahs. Including the one recently produced by Syed Mudarrisi (http://almodarresi.com/en/books/pdf/TheLawsofIslam.pdf). He quoted hadith in all the sections except in the section of Taqlid.

That is because there is a difference between most modern day risalas - which tend to be simplified - and actual Fiqh books dwelving into arguements regarding x rulings by citing evidence to prove their point.

Nonetheless there are some books that are out there which have a considerable amount of discussion in them. Sayyed Al-Khoei's Minhaj Al-Saliheen (a risala) does go into discussions regarding certain issues and cites evidence sometimes.

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41 minutes ago, E.L King said:

Nonetheless there are some books that are out there which have a considerable amount of discussion in them. Sayyed Al-Khoei's Minhaj Al-Saliheen (a risala) does go into discussions regarding certain issues and cites evidence sometimes

Have you read those books? If so, can you provide me quotations from the book on the hadith that they have used to support the concept of Taqlid?

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20 hours ago, IbnMariam said:

I hate this analogy. When a doctor makes an error like misdiagnosing a patient , the mere fact that he's a doctor doesn't stop the illness. Doctors are also meant to explain your illness and treatment to you, it's just as important as providing a solution. You've also misunderstood taqlid. They don't teach you the religion in an evidence based way like in medicine, they literally give you a set of laws and the doctrine posits that it is obligatory for you to follow, their word is binding.

Thank you IbnMariam. This doctor analogy is fundamentally flawed at multiple levels. It is a trap for the simpletons. Someday I will write about it in more detail. Right now I don't want to distract this thread from my main question.

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19 minutes ago, shuaybi said:

Have you read those books? If so, can you provide me quotations from the book on the hadith that they have used to support the concept of Taqlid?

Sorry, I thought you were talking about books which discuss Fiqhi topics broadly not just specifically the issue of taqlid. My bad brother.

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What I find ironic is that even if there is a compelling argument for taqlid based on the texts, it seems that nobody apart from incredibly learned scholars knows what it is. Not even the proponents of it who have some understanding of the texts know what it is. I've lost count of the number of times I or others have asked for justification and received vague responses, and references of certain narrations of verses which don't actually prove the claims made. That somebody who is not a faqeeh has to blindly follow the most learned scholar, and that scholar's fatawa are a proof upon that person, and their actions, their a'maal, without this blind acceptance are invalid. For example:

On 10/6/2017 at 9:42 AM, Ibn al-Hussain said:

:salam:

'Aqli is one way to put it, but since the term can also be misunderstood for philosophical reasoning, a better and more appropriate term to use is 'Uqalayee (something that rational people do naturally). This is the primary evidence used for the permissibility and necessity of Taqleed.

After this, some Qur'anic verses or narrations can be used to strengthen one's argument (they will not be sufficient on their own, because each of these can be critiqued) - such as the verse that says ask the Ahl al-Dhikr, or narrations that suggest one should ask and prefer an 'Alim over a non-'Alim, or the verse and narrations that talk about doing Tafaqquh (gaining deep insight) of the religion imply that those who do not do such a thing would be referring to those who do this Tafaqquh.

Wasalam

Ahl al-dhikr are the ahlulbayt. http://www.alseraj.net/maktaba/kotob/hadith/kafi1/html/ara/books/al-kafi-1/84.html

How did you derive from this ayah that during the time of the ghayba, one is to blindly follow the fatawa of the scholar who is the most learned, because the most learned individuals of each time, collectively, are ahl al-dhikr? As for the rest, please provide sources and explain how they collectively justify the common rules of taqlid that we see from various maraaji'.

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On 10/6/2017 at 8:29 AM, shuaybi said:

I recently came across the risalah "Laws of Islam" By Āyatullāh Sayyid Muḥammad Taqī al-Mudarrisī al-Ḥusaynī (http://almodarresi.com/en/books/pdf/TheLawsofIslam.pdf). What is different about this risalah is that it has reference to hadith in every section. However, in the section of Taqlid, there are no references to hadith or Quran.

I am trying to understand if near the Maraje, is Taqlid established through hadith/quran or is it simply an aqli daleel? Are there any official statements of the Maraje where they have proved Taqlid with the support of Hadith and Quran? If so, can you please point me to those resources i.e. the books/statements of the Maraje where they have quoted the hadith/quran?

Following a Mujtahid

1. It is necessary for a Muslim to believe in the fundamentals of faith on the basis of proof and he cannot follow anyone in this respect i.e. he cannot accept he word of another with regard to the fundamentals without demanding proof. However, in order to act on Islamic code (except in those matters which are considered by all to be indisputable e.g. the obligatory nature of the five daily prayers, fasting during the holy month of Ramadan etc.) a person must adopt one of the following methods:

https://www.al-islam.org/islamic-laws-ayatullah-abul-qasim-al-khui/taqlid#following-mujtahid

I know what you are trying to ask, do you have any issue with above? 

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http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235052794-hadith-on-black-clothes-in-muharram/?page=3&tab=comments#comment-3087228

This is what you said in the post referenced above.

Quote

Even he is not 100% sure. Religion is based on conviction (yaqeen) not doubt.

Above discussion is not about the Fundamentals of the Religion. What you comment Tells me that, you really don't understand the difference between, Faith and Acts? otherwise you comment was really off the marks.

Analogy of the Physician was conceptual, but you are a technical person, so you missed the mark again. And engaged in technical stuff. Conceptually, Unless you are an expert, you refer to an expert( Physician, engineer, mechanic lawyer). 

"1. It is necessary for a Muslim to believe in the fundamentals of faith on the basis of proof and he cannot follow anyone in this respect i.e. he cannot accept he word of another with regard to the fundamentals without demanding proof.

However, in order to act on Islamic code (except in those matters which are considered by all to be indisputable e.g. the obligatory nature of the five daily prayers, fasting during the holy month of Ramadan etc.) a person must adopt one of the following methods:

https://www.al-islam.org/islamic-laws-ayatullah-abul-qasim-al-khui/taqlid#following-mujtahid

In this case, Its only non life threatening issues, and the expert takes the burden of proof. Your argument on the day of judgement. Or just be an expert yourself. 

Read and contemplate on the reasoning here. 

http://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/question/fa4809

https://www.al-islam.org/articles/taqlid-meaning-and-reality-sayyid-muhammad-rizvi

And, No I do not feel it is necessary, given the rational, logical and intellectual proofs to ask for something that makes common sense. 

You are using an example of one scholar, Most do not provide details on rulings and there are reason that are outlined in the two posts above. They are valid reasons for  a layman like me. 

Here its a three part series, part one

Your question indicates that you need to research the subject matter. 

Plus, the way you have constructed the question is not valid.

You need to ask the Jurist, this question in the form you are asking us. Contact them, their contact is on their websites. Because you question is geared to them. 

You, can ask, us why do we follow, and what is the rational behind this would be appropriate and knowledgeable people and layman like me have given you our reasons. Why we follow it. 

Edited by S.M.H.A.

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On 10/6/2017 at 3:57 PM, IbnMariam said:

I hate this analogy. When a doctor makes an error like misdiagnosing a patient , the mere fact that he's a doctor doesn't stop the illness. Doctors are also meant to explain your illness and treatment to you, it's just as important as providing a solution. You've also misunderstood taqlid. They don't teach you the religion in an evidence based way like in medicine, they literally give you a set of laws and the doctrine posits that it is obligatory for you to follow, their word is binding.

You need to understand one thing. tey are humans life us they are not masoom. And they tell you what could be the  law. 

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5 hours ago, Ron_Burgundy said:

You need to understand one thing. tey are humans life us they are not masoom. And they tell you what could be the  law. 

Several points, although I feel like a broken record:

Most give us the following guidelines for following islamic law: 

1. Either you are a mujtahid and capable of deducing laws from the texts, or you're not a mujtahid and not capable of doing so. In the case of not being a mujtahid, you either exercise precaution between the rulings of the mujtahideen, or you follow the most learned mujtahid who tells us what he believes (without doubt) the laws are.

2. If you do not act within these guidelines, your actions ie your prayers, fasting, wudhu, ghusl, zakat, hajj, umrah etc are all void.

3. You are to take these rulings without investigating the arguments for them. They are literally a proof upon you by virtue of being the saying of the most learned mujtahid. No need to look into the narrations of the ahlulbayt.

 

I have a few problems with the guidelines above:

1) I have yet to see justification for them in the ahadith

2) They suggest that one can fulfill their duty of obeying the imams without even reading their words. It makes no sense. If you haven't read the words of the imams, how do you know what their commands are? How does the declaration of a famous fallible man I don't even know ensure that I know I'm following my imams? 

3) If these guidelines are clearly from the ahlulbayt, then why have they only been adhered to and practised in recent history? 


Brother, what you've said is actually part of the argument against taqlid, they are not ma'soom, so how can one justify blindly following any of them? The arguments for taqlid tend to cite various verses and narrations, yet under scrutiny, these arguments tend not to justify the position of taqlid as is commonly known. For example, above, the brother cited a verse of the qur'an regarding ahl al-dhikr, but when you look at the narrations, it's reported from multiple imams across several chains that they themselves are ahl al-dhikr. There's no mention of mujtahideen or the ghayba in relation to this verse, and you can't just assume this either as the true explanation and understanding of the qur'an is with the ahlulbayt.

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying we should throw the works of recent scholars down the toilet, and that they are useless charlatans. They are all well beyond my level, and it stands to reason that a student takes knowledge from a teacher. Some of you may have even seen me cite Sistani when discussing an issue without reference to the ahadith. I'm willing to consider that there is an irrefutable argument that I am not aware of for taqlid and it's conditions, but I've yet to see it. The arguments I have seen time and again are full of holes, and those holes never get plugged. 

Edited by IbnMariam

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On 10/9/2017 at 1:21 AM, S.M.H.A. said:

Your question indicates that you need to research the subject matter. 

Plus, the way you have constructed the question is not valid.

You need to ask the Jurist, this question in the form you are asking us. Contact them, their contact is on their websites. Because you question is geared to them. 

You, can ask, us why do we follow, and what is the rational behind this would be appropriate and knowledgeable people and layman like me have given you our reasons. Why we follow it. 

Ok. Is it fair to say that at this point you don't know how your jurist has proved the validity of the 3 laws of taqlid (become a mujtahid, remain a muqallid or exercise ihtiyat). Whether he has proved it through reason or hadith? You also need to research further.

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On 10/7/2017 at 1:10 PM, IbnMariam said:

What I find ironic is that even if there is a compelling argument for taqlid based on the texts, it seems that nobody apart from incredibly learned scholars knows what it is. Not even the proponents of it who have some understanding of the texts know what it is. I've lost count of the number of times I or others have asked for justification and received vague responses, and references of certain narrations of verses which don't actually prove the claims made

I would like to know which hadith are quoted in the "compelling arguments" of those who allow their taqleed to be done.

On 10/7/2017 at 1:10 PM, IbnMariam said:

True - without any shadow of doubt.

Edited by shuaybi

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3 minutes ago, shuaybi said:

I would be really interested in that compelling argument directly from those who allow their taqleed to be done.

:bismillah:

فَلَوْلاَ نَفَرَ مِن كُلِّ فِرْقَةٍ مِّنْهُمْ طَآئِفَةٌ لِّيَتَفَقَّهُواْ فِي الدِّينِ وَلِيُنذِرُواْ قَوْمَهُمْ إِذَا رَجَعُواْ إِلَيْهِمْ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَحْذَرُونَ

"Why should not then a company from every party from among them go forth that they may apply themselves to obtain understanding in religion, and that they may warn their people when they come back to them that they may be cautious" (9:122)

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1 minute ago, Salsabeel said:

"Why should not then a company from every party from among them go forth that they may apply themselves to obtain understanding in religion, and that they may warn their people when they come back to them that they may be cautious" (9:122)

Is the above ayat quoted officially by the Maraje? Can you provide me a link/reference to a statement from them where they have used the above ayat as proof of Taqlid?

(As a side note: have you ever referred to the explanation provided by the imams (as) on the above verse or have you done your own personal interpretation?) 

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Just now, shuaybi said:

Is the above ayat quoted officially by the Maraje? Can you provide me a link/reference to a statement from them where they have used the above ayat as proof of Taqlid?

You will not get the answer of your question on ShiaChat. Better for you to directly contact Ayatullah Sistani or Ayatullah Khamenei or any other Marja-e-Taqleed.

The referred verse is a Quranic evidence of Fiqh & Faqeeh as the word "Yatafaqqahu" has been used in there. The reason of obtaining knowledge/understanding is also mentioned in the verse. For me, it is sufficient to follow a person i.e., "Faqeeh" who is doing the duty of Prophet as mentioned in the verse in the word "leyunthiru"

As per a famous hadith "Scholars are the inheritors of Prophets", so it is better to follow those who have obtained knowledge/understanding of religion.

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27 minutes ago, shuaybi said:

(As a side note: have you ever referred to the explanation provided by the imams (as) on the above verse or have you done your own personal interpretation?) 

As an open note: Can you provide me the reference of book/books which contain the explanation given by Imam (s) of all 6236 verses of Quran?

If you are unable to provide any reference, let me know is there any prohibition in doing "tafakkur" on the verses of Quran? or is there any prohibition in doing "tafakkur" on the systems created by Allah (and that includes the system of guidance)?

Edited by Salsabeel

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