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Hadith on black clothes in Muharram

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1 hour ago, power said:

Your argument would've carried some weight, if you had categorically showed a narrative form the Imam (as) forbidding wearing black clothes during muharram. So, therefore with absent of a hadith forbidding wearing black clothes during muharram, your debate at this stage is very weak to say the least

My argument is strong. I have presented many hadith where the Imam's have prohibited wearing black clothes without making any exception for Muharram. Without the presence of a single hadith recommending that Shias wear black clothes to mourn in Muharram, your argument is very weak.

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1 hour ago, shuaybi said:

My argument is strong. I have presented many hadith where the Imam's have prohibited wearing black clothes without making any exception for Muharram. Without the presence of a single hadith recommending that Shias wear black clothes to mourn in Muharram, your argument is very weak.

Now that i've drawn your attention of your 'Weak argument" i suggest that you pay a visit to this link:

http://www.valiasr-aj.com/english/shownews.php?idnews=251#_ftnref16

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38 minutes ago, power said:

Now that i've drawn your attention of your 'Weak argument" i suggest that you pay a visit to this link:

http://www.valiasr-aj.com/english/shownews.php?idnews=251#_ftnref16

Your argument is weak which is why you keep throwing at me a 100 page document - attempting to justify it, when all I am asking for is a single one line hadith. Can you extract that one hadith (with the words - black, mourn, Imam Hussain) from this document and present it to me?

I have no problem with you wearing black. But if there are no hadith - at least be humble and accept that this practice is not based on hadith. 

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22 hours ago, shuaybi said:

Your argument is weak which is why you keep throwing at me a 100 page document - attempting to justify it, when all I am asking for is a single one line hadith. Can you extract that one hadith (with the words - black, mourn, Imam Hussain) from this document and present it to me?

I have no problem with you wearing black. But if there are no hadith - at least be humble and accept that this practice is not based on hadith. 

Ayatollah al-Uzma Sistani

The following question has been posed in Ayatollah al-Uzma Sistani’s Istiftaat (Replies to Inquiries about the Practical Laws of Islam),

السؤال:

ما هو رأيكم في لبس السواد في عزاء خامس أصحاب الكساء؟ الجواب: لبس السواد في عزاء سيد الشهداء [روحي فداه] أمر مطلوب.

Question:

What is your opinion about wearing black clothes in mourning for Imam Hussein (AS)?

Answer: Wearing black clothes in mourning for Sayyid al-Shohada (AS) is a commendable act.

Istiftaat (jurists’ decrees), al-Sayyid al-Sistani, p. 192.

 

 

6. Ayatollah al-Uzma Mirza Jawad Tabrizi

سؤال:

يرجى من سماحتكم بيان رأيكم في هذه المسألة التي أخذت منحى خطيرا في الكويت بعد مسألة مظلومية الزهراء عليه السلام والتي لا تخفى عليكم، والمسألة هي: ما هو رأيكم المبارك في لبس السواد، واللطم على الصدور أثناء إحياء مراسيم العزاء لسيد الشهداء عليه السلام في شهر محرم الحرام، ولباقي الأئمة الأطهار عليهم السلام؟

 

Question: Would you please voice your view concerning an issue which has been brought into the spotlight in Kuwait after the issue of Hazrat Zahra (AS)? The issue is black-wearing and chest-beating in mourning ceremonies held for Sayyid al-AShohada (AS) in the month of Muharram and for other Imams.

جواب:

لا إشكال ولا ريب ولا خلاف بين الشيعة الإمامية في أن اللطم ولبس السواد من شعائر أهل البيت عليهم السلام، ومن المصاديق الجلية للآية: ذلك ومن يعظم شعائر الله فإنها من تقوى القلوب.

كما أنها من مظاهر الجزع الذي دلت النصوص الكثيرة على رجحانه في مصائب اهل البيت ومآتمهم. ومن يحاول تضعيف هذه الشعائر أو التقليل من أهميتها بين شباب الشيعة، فهو من الآثمين في حق أهل البيت عليهم السلام، ومن المسؤولين يوم القيامة عما اقترفه في تضليل الناس عن مظالم الأئمة عليهم السلام. ثبت الله المؤمنين على الإيمان والولاية. والله الهادي إلى سواء السبيل.

Answer:

beyond any doubt, there is no clash of ideas among the Shias about the fact that the rituals of wearing black clothes as well as beating chests is in line with the tradition of Ahl al-Bayt. They are in accordance with the Quranic verse which states, “Respecting the divine rites is a sign of piety.”

Such rituals are the manifestations of mourning and grief for Ahl al-Bayt with a large number of narratives having approved them. Those who are trying to weaken and play down the importance of such rituals among Shia youths are, as a matter of fact, seeking to deal a blow to the Ahl al-Bayt. They would be definitely held responsible on the Day of Justice for misleading people about those who oppressed Ahl al-Bayt. This is God who keeps the believers firm over their faith and Ahl al-Bayt’s friendship. And He is the One who lead the people to the right path.

Al-Sheikh al-Kurani al-‘Ameli, al-Intisar, vol. 9, p. 247; publication, Dar al-Sirat, Beirut, Lebanon, the first edition, 1422.

7. Ayatollah al-Uzma Mar’ashi Najafi’s will

Here is what he has written in his last will,

I want him [my son] to bury with me the black clothes which I used to wear in the months of Muharram and Safar in grief for the sufferings of the Holy Prophet’s household (peace be upon them).

 

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4 hours ago, power said:

Ayatollah al-Uzma Sistani

The following question has been posed in Ayatollah al-Uzma Sistani’s Istiftaat (Replies to Inquiries about the Practical Laws of Islam),

I asked for hadith of masumeen (as) not the opinion of your scholars.

Let me also quote from the same link (http://www.valiasr-aj.com/english/shownews.php?idnews=251#_ftnref16), the very first fatwa of your jurist:

4 hours ago, power said:

1. Late writer of Hadaiq
Shortly after explaining why using this color is prohibited while doing prayers, this prominent jurist has said,
ثم أقول: لايبعد استثناء لبس السواد في مأتم الحسين (عليه السلام) من هذه الأخبار لما استفاضت به الأخبار من الأمر باظهار شعائر الأحزان.
It is most probable that wearing black for mourning Imam Hussein (AS) is believed to be acceptable by inferring from a number of narratives which called for the expression of grief.

Examine closely the words used in his verdict - "most probable", "believed to be acceptable", "inferring", etc. Even he is not 100% sure. Religion is based on conviction (yaqeen) not doubt.

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12 hours ago, shuaybi said:

I asked for hadith of masumeen (as) not the opinion of your scholars.

Let me also quote from the same link (http://www.valiasr-aj.com/english/shownews.php?idnews=251#_ftnref16), the very first fatwa of your jurist:

Examine closely the words used in his verdict - "most probable", "believed to be acceptable", "inferring", etc. Even he is not 100% sure. Religion is based on conviction (yaqeen) not doubt.

Let's examine your words Closely.

Was it a slip or just a mistake?

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18 hours ago, shuaybi said:

I asked for hadith of masumeen (as) not the opinion of your scholars.

Let me also quote from the same link (http://www.valiasr-aj.com/english/shownews.php?idnews=251#_ftnref16), the very first fatwa of your jurist:

Examine closely the words used in his verdict - "most probable", "believed to be acceptable", "inferring", etc. Even he is not 100% sure. Religion is based on conviction (yaqeen) not doubt.

Ayatollah al-Uzma Sistani, Ayatollah al-Uzma Mirza Jawad Tabrizi and Ayatollah al-Uzma Mar’ashi Najafi’s verdict are also inconclusive for you? if they are inconclusive then state why?

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5 hours ago, power said:

Ayatollah al-Uzma Sistani, Ayatollah al-Uzma Mirza Jawad Tabrizi and Ayatollah al-Uzma Mar’ashi Najafi’s verdict are also inconclusive for you? if they are inconclusive then state why?

No act is conclusively mustahab without a clear hadith of Masumeen (as).

Edited by shuaybi

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5 hours ago, shuaybi said:

No act is conclusively mustahab without a clear hadith of Masumeen (as).

First Taqlid issue, watch the video posted here. 

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235053158-is-taqlid-purely-an-aqli-daleel-near-the-maraje/?tab=comments#comment-3087370

Second, Jurist may have provided opinion when asked to do so. If you think Aza is a Taqlidi issue, Contact 

Qom

Najaf

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 Wearing black for mourning not makruh: Wearing black is not makruh when worn to participate in gatherings of mourning for the Ahlul-Bayt. It has been narrated from Imam Sajjad’s son that: “When my grandfather, Imam Hussein, was martyred, the women of Bani Hashem would wear black in their mourning gatherings and would continue wearing black in cold and hot weather.”.[7]

Even when normal people pass away, it is very common amongst religious and even non-religious people to wear black.

Wearing black is a means of remembering the Ahlul-Bayt and honoring them which is clearly encouraged by Islam. In this regard, they have said: “رحم الله من احيا امرنا[8] “May Allah have mercy on the those who uphold our cause.”

Without doubt, when all people, young and old, men and women wear black during the months of Muharram and Safar it reminds everyone of the difficulties and calamities that befell Imam Hussein. The truth of the matter is that Islam has been protected and revived by these two months.

Historians say that after the incident of Karbala, the first group to wear black were the women of the Prophet’s family who did so for a complete year. They mourned to the extent that Imam Sajjad would provide them with food. Throughout history, wearing black in these gatherings has been customary amongst the Shias and the lovers of the Ahlul-Bayt.

Great scholars that would wear black for this purpose would deeply respect and protect their black clothing and would will that the clothing be buried with them as a means of Tabarruk.[9]

Therefore, not only wearing black in these gatherings and especially in Muharram and Safar is not makruh, but rather has great reward, because it is a means of showing sympathy and love for the Ahlul-Bayt. Taking what was said into consideration, making general claims that wearing black is makruh in Islam, is clearly wrong and misguiding.[10] [11]

http://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/question/fa2415#

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On ‎06‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 5:19 PM, shuaybi said:

The hadith is saying is that the Imam wore black and it was done in Taqiyyah.

And what I have mentioned you is the fact that the exception of "Taqiyyah" was not mentioned in the ahadith you shared earlier.

On ‎26‎/‎09‎/‎2017 at 6:35 AM, shuaybi said:

He said: Black (clothing) is disliked except in three: the khuff, the turban, and the cloak.

So we now have four exceptions, the forth one is Taqaiyyah.

And what else, the hadith says categorically " بیض قلبک والبس ما شئت "

These words simply turndown the validity of your argument.

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18 hours ago, shuaybi said:

No act is conclusively mustahab without a clear hadith of Masumeen (as).

Sure. But the fact is the noble women had worn black clothing during the events of Karbala

 

Allame Sheikh Mohammad Hussein Kazemeini, known as Muhaqiq Kazimi

Here is what he has written,

وفى استثناء لبسه فى مأتم الحسين (عليه السلام) ونحوه وجهٌ غير بعيد كما فى حدائق لما دلّ على اظهار شعائر الحزن عليه (عليه السلام) ولما روى من لبس نساء بنى هاشم السواد ولم يغيّرنها فى حرّ او برد وكان زين العابدين (عليه السلام) يصنع لهن الطعام فى المأتم ولم ينكره (عليه السلام) عليهن.

Wearing black in mourning for Imam Hussein (AS) is exceptional and it is unlikely to be prohibited. The exceptionality of the issue has been cited in Hadaiq. According to the narratives, there are two reasons for its exceptionality. One of them is the expression of sorrow for Imam Hussein (AS) and the other is the narrative about the Hashemite women who wore black in grief for that Imam. They didn’t even take off the black clothes in extreme heat and cold. Imam Zein al-‘Abedin (AS) was the one who prepared food for the mourners and never prevented them from doing so.

Kazemeini, Mohammad Hussein (died in 1308 AH), Hidayat al-Anam fi Sharh Sharayi’ al-Islam, p. 454, published in Najaf, 1330 AH.

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14 hours ago, S.M.H.A. said:

If you think Aza is a Taqlidi issue, Contact Qom

I am not questioning Azadari of Imam Hussain (as). It has countless merits based on the hadith. Refer to Kamil uz Ziyarat (http://www.wilayatmission.org/EngBooks/Kamil.pdf) and our other books of hadith.

Edited by shuaybi

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2 hours ago, power said:

Sure. But the fact is the noble women had worn black clothing during the events of Karbala

What about the men? What were they wearing? 

How long (for how many days) should black clothing be worn? Only on the day of Ashura? First 10 days of Muharram? First 40 days? Until Rabbi-ul-awwal? What if someone wants to mourn longer? So he should wear black clothes all year long? What are the limits and who will define them?

If we Shias had strictly adhered to the hadith of our Imams (as), we would never have been wearing black in the first place. But now that we have adopted this practice, we are looking for justification by searching for the word "black" in historical events and any piece of information we can get our hands on. Do you think Shia men started the practice of wearing black simply by hearing about the historical event of the black clad hashemite women?

Black dress is makruh in prayer. There is not a single incident where the Imams themselves wore black dress to mourn Imam Hussain (as). Do you think they would be constantly switching their dress back and forth from black to white and from white to black through out the day to accommodate salat?

Again, if there were not the other hadith condemning black clothing as the clothes of Firaun, Bani Abbas and people of fire, I would absolutely have no problem with it. It would have been just like any other color.

Even if it was not makruh in prayer and even if there were not the other hadith prohibiting it, it boils down to merely a cultural practice. Without hadith it cannot be deemed as a mustahab act. Don't expect Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى to be extra pleased with you for wearing black.

Edited by shuaybi

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Salam

So whats the verdict. Do we have a consensus now? Wear black or not. 

Generally not but for mourning, it's ok. 

Makrooh while prayer. 

 What about if mourning and doing prayer. This has become really confusing. 

 

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6 hours ago, inocence said:

So whats the verdict. Do we have a consensus now? Wear black or not. 

Generally not but for mourning, it's ok. 

Makrooh while prayer. 

 What about if mourning and doing prayer. This has become really confusing.

For those confusing matters (which are non-emergency and non-life-threatening) and there are no clear hadith we have been asked abstain/refrain from the action or wait until we can find a clear hadith or get the answer from the living Imam (as).

Rasool Allah (saww) said: "Permissible is clear, and Prohibition is clear, and confusing ones are between that. One who avoids the confusing matters will be saved from the Prohibitions, and one who takes to the confusing matters will get involved in the Prohibitions, and will be destroyed without even knowing about it". Then he (saww) said at the end of the Hadith: "Surely abstaining during confusion is better than indulging in destruction". [Reference: Wasail us Shia H 33472]

Abu Abdullah (asws) said: "Had the servants abstained during ignorance, they would not have struggled nor would they have disbelieved (denied). To abstain during confusion is better that indulging in destruction" [Reference: Wasail us Shia H 33474, H 33476]

Abu Abdullah (asws) said: "The most pious of the people is the one who pauses during confusion". [Reference Wasail us Shia H 33492]
 

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There is no confusion in wearing clothes. There is no confusion in wearing black color in the mourning for Imam e Mazloom (asws).

One should take care to achieve or maintain brightness of heart & protect the heart from darkness.

Wearing Black is not impermissible (haram).

Edited by Salsabeel

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Excellent 

I guess to be on the safe side. We wear black while mourning for alhlebayt and when its salat time, change the clothes if possible,  keeping in mind the hadith . A bit inconvenient though. 

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 The most notable distinguished Ullamas  have not deemed black clothing during Muharram is "Disliked" moreover, they encourage it. 

 

Shia jurists have issued decrees recommending the act of putting on black clothes in mourning services

1.  The author of Hadaiq

2.  Allame Sayyid Mohammad Jafar Tabatabai Hairi

3.  Allame Sheikh Mohammad Hussein Kazemeini, known as Muhaqiq Kazemi

4.  Mirza Hussein Nuri, the writer of Mustadrak al-Wasail

5.  Ayatollah al-Uzma Sistani

6.  Ayatollah al-Uzma Jawad Tabrizi

7.  Ayatollah al-Uzma Mar 'ashi Najafi 's last will

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4 hours ago, power said:

The most notable distinguished Ullamas  have not deemed black clothing during Muharram is "Disliked" moreover, they encourage it. 

I asked for hadith of masumeen (as) from our reliable sources (kutub-e-araba, kamil-uz-ziyarat, wasail-e-shia, etc) . All I got back was historical events and verdicts of the jurists.

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Shuaybi has a valid point. However, since the great scholars have allowed it then there must be ahadith in there favor. We can't imagine that either of these great scholars will go against several ahadith on this topic. If we could get some explanation from the current scholars then it would help us understand the issue. 

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11 hours ago, inocence said:

However, since the great scholars have allowed it then there must be ahadith in there favor. We can't imagine that either of these great scholars will go against several ahadith on this topic

If you attach yourself directly to the masumeen (as) through their hadith no one in the world will be able to misguide you. Be assured that Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى has preserved the truth in the hadith. If that were not the case, the statement of the Prophet (s) in hadith-e-thaqalayn would become invalid (God forbid).

It obligatory to refer every matter to the Masumeen (as) else one becomes a Mushriq.

Abu Abdullah (as) said: The affairs of the people are on recognizing us (as) and referring to us (as) and accepting us (as). And if they were to observe fast and pray and bear witness that there is no god but Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى, and if they have it in their hearts that they will not refer to us (as), then they will be among the ‘Mushriqeen’ (polytheists). [Reference: Wasail ul Shia H. 33221]

People have been ordered three things recognizing the Imams (as), submitting to them (as) and referring to them (as) in everything that they differ in. [Reference: Wasail ul Shia H. 33216]

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3 hours ago, shuaybi said:

If you attach yourself directly to the masumeen (as) through their hadith no one in the world will be able to misguide you

I need to re-quote my self:

"And what else, the hadith says categorically " بیض قلبک والبس ما شئت "

These words simply turndown the validity of your argument."

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18 hours ago, shuaybi said:

I asked for hadith of masumeen (as) from our reliable sources (kutub-e-araba, kamil-uz-ziyarat, wasail-e-shia, etc) . All I got back was historical events and verdicts of the jurists.

 Yes you  have dismissed some of these jurists by stating: No act is mustahab without a clear hadith of Masumeen (as) …Well what have you exactly proven? Imams (as) general statement in prohibition of black clothes have "Absolutely Nothing" to do with wearing black on mourning occasion! This perspective of yours is really uncorroborated and not supported by the Imams (as) themselves And undoubtedly these narrative have become playing tool into the hands of those who are seeking to raise doubts in Shia rituals.

Furthermore, these jurist who have giving their decree on black clothing, have they brought about innovation into Shia Islam?  

 

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7 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

I need to re-quote my self:

"And what else, the hadith says categorically " بیض قلبک والبس ما شئت "

These words simply turndown the validity of your argument."

I would like your help to clearly understand this hadith, part of which you quoted above. Can you please quote this entire hadith once more with the complete english translation. Also include any contextual information you have (if for e.g. this was in taqiyyah, etc).

I will accept any hadith found in our well-known collections and which has a sanad (chain). If I come across such a hadith where the imams (as) have asked us to wear black clothes and mourn for Imam Hussain (as) I will submit to it whole heartedly. Really, all I am looking for is a single hadith with a sanad. I am also hoping if such a hadith exists it would mention the specific days of Muharram on which the black clothing should be worn, so I know how to act upon it.

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