Jump to content
E.L King

Iraqi Kurdistan Referendum

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

So apparently Iran and Turkey have closed Erbil's airspace, probably after Baghdad asked them to do so.

And what I have read is that both Iranian and Turkish forces are apparently mobilising on the Iraqi Kurdistan border, or conducting war games.

Can this go to a military conflict?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Dhulfikar said:

Haider Al-AbadiVerified account @HaiderAlAbadi 31m31 minutes ago

We will protect the rights of all Iraqis including our Kurdish citizens, we will not punish them for the mistakes of regional officials

Yeh but he is threatening to cut off the oil supplies just like Erdogan. It's remarkable he claims to care about the Kurdish people whilst doing this. The lifeline of the Kurds is oil, if that goes then they starve. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/26/world/middleeast/iraq-kurds-independence.html?mcubz=0

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Ībn Mūneer Āl-Feylī said:

Yeh but he is threatening to cut off the oil supplies just like Erdogan. It's remarkable he claims to care about the Kurdish people whilst doing this. The lifeline of the Kurds is oil, if that goes then they starve. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/26/world/middleeast/iraq-kurds-independence.html?mcubz=0

 

Because they (Barzanis and his gang) don't want to give kirkuk that don't belong to kurds only (Multinational area), or others parts they have conquered in this war unjustly claiming to be theirs. Nor they want to separate Iraq.

But I don't think such a thing will happen, inshaAllah they will come to an good conclusion.

Edited by Dhulfikar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Dhulfikar said:

Because they (Barzanis and his gang) don't want to give kirkuk that don't belong to kurds only (Multinational area)

Kirkuk is and was historically Kurdish and has historically had a Kurdish majority. It was only during the later Ottoman period during WW1 that the Turkmen population surged in Kirkuk and then during the 1970s when Saddam settled Arabs, that the Arab population surged. 

Here is a reference on te 1957 Kirkuk governorate census on the demographics: http://www.let.uu.nl/~martin.vanbruinessen/personal/publications/Iraq_paper_ISS.htm#_ftn11 

The reference on my point in regards to the Turkmen migration to Kirkuk: https://www.ncciraq.org/images/infobygov/NCCI_Kirkuk_Governorate_Profile.pdf

Quote

Kirkuk experienced another wave of Turkmen migration when it became part of the Mosul Wilayet in the Ottoman Empire. Kurds in the Mosul Wilayet initiated some militant and political steps towards establishing more autonomy for the Kurdish Ottoman entity but these efforts were interrupted when the British forces entered in 1918. Representatives of Kirkuk opposed integration of the Ottoman Wilayet into Mesopotamia.

Reference on Arab settlement surge in the 1970s by Saddam: https://www.ncciraq.org/images/infobygov/NCCI_Kirkuk_Governorate_Profile.pdf

Quote

Between 1970 and 2003, hundreds of thousands of Kurdish Iraqis were expelled to other Kurdish areas in the north while Arab Iraqis resettled in Kirkuk with the national government’s support.

Therefore when you talk about kirkuk being "multinational", remember it only became "multinational" very recently due to artificial forced migration and replacement of the Kurdish population.

Quote

or others parts they have conquered in this war unjustly claiming to be theirs. Nor they want to separate Iraq.

1-Do you remember when the 15,000 Iraqi troops abandoned their posts and fled from Mosul? Who stood against ISIS and fought them off? It was the peshmerga. The idea that Kurds "conquered" those areas is remarkable, the Iraqi army abandoned all their posts in those regions. Are you suggesting the Kurds should of simply just surrendered and let ISIS take them over?

2-What specific area of the disputed areas are you talking about in regards to "not wanting to seperate"? 

3-In my opinion places like Mandali, Badra and Jassan which is under Hashd control is occupied, these are all historic Kurdish towns and have Kurdish majorities. 

Edited by Ībn Mūneer Āl-Feylī

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Kirkuk is and was historically Kurdish and has always had a Kurdish majority. It was only during the later Ottoman period during WW1 that the Turkmen population surged in Kirkuk and then during the 1970s when Saddam settled Arabs, that the Arab population surged. 

If it is judged by majority, then now the majority was not anymore Kurds. The land belongs to Iraq by agreement laws, and taking the land contradicting the law of Iraq is not even right. 

Quote

1-Do you remember when the 15,000 Iraqi troops abandoned their posts and fled from Mosul? Who stood against ISIS and fought them off? It was the peshmerga. The idea that Kurds "conquered" those areas is remarkable, the Iraqi army abandoned all their posts in those regions. Are you suggesting the Kurds should of simply just surrendered and let ISIS take them over?

Do pesmerga claims that now the lands belongs to them? If they give them back to Iraq, then that is right, because it belong to Iraq in first place. Pesmarge would be exactly like Isis if they start to claim lands here and there.

Quote

2-What specific area of the disputed areas are you talking about in regards to "not wanting to seperate"? 

When I said separation, I mean making independent country, separate from Iraq. But it seems Kurds does want to have Independence badly and that is fine, as long there is agreement. Politically it would be an threat to regions like Iran,Iraq and Turkey.

Quote

3-In my opinion places like Mandali, Badra and Jassan which is under Hashd control is occupied, these are all historic Kurdish towns and have Kurdish majorities. 

 

These belongs to Iraq country in first place. 

Quote

Are you suggesting the Kurds should of simply just surrendered and let ISIS take them over?

What about Assyrians and the Sinjar and yezidis when Peshmerga took from them their weaponry so they could not defend themselves ageinst Daish and Peshmerga did not even protect them (they promised to protect them) but rather let the daish to enter to Sinjar? Then when Daish came to conquer them, then the kurds came and conquered Sinjar? This is how easily with evilness can people take lands that don't belong to them.

 

Edited by Dhulfikar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Dhulfikar

Quote

If it is judged by majority, then now the majority was not anymore Kurds. The land belongs to Iraq by agreement laws, and taking the land contradicting the law of Iraq is not even right. 

1- That is a fallacy and a slippery slope. It's like stating you have a house, I takeover your house and therefore now it's mine. It makes no logical sense. I'm judging it belonging to the Kurds based on the fact Kurds have resides there for atleast 2000 years and it has had a HISTORIC majority. 

2-You didn't read the link I posted, the agreement was an agreement created by Saddam. What's sad even is that you are defending a Baathist doctrine and law in relation to the arabization of Kirkuk. Even then, Saddam didn't even honour the agreement he made, so it doesn't support your argument.

3-Furthermore you are incorrect once again, according to "Iraqi law" article 140 must be activated before Iraq can even lay claim to it. Yet Iraq doesn't want article 140, Kurds have pushed for article 140 numerous times. Here is a reference: http://www.rudaw.net/english/kurdistan/06042017

Quote

The visiting Kurdish delegation during their meeting with the prime minister of Iraq on Wednesday night discussed possible ways of removing the stumbling block before the reactivation of the controversial 140 Article and laying the groundwork to hold a census in the city of Kirkuk.

 

Quote

Do pesmerga claims that now the lands belongs to them? If they give them back to Iraq, then that is right, because it belong to Iraq in first place. Pesmarge would be exactly like Isis if they start to claim lands here and there.

1-That depends entirely on how you define to whom the land belongs to. The Iraqi government refuses to settle things according to the manner the UN has set out. Let each of these places hold a referendum on whether they want to stay or join. Self-determination is a right enshrined in charter 1 of UN. Reference: http://www.un.org/en/sections/un-charter/chapter-i/index.html

Quote
  1. To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace;

 

Quote

These belongs to Iraq country in first place. 

1-Sorry but how far are you going back to state this? You see if you go back only 100 years, Iraq never existed as a state. It was created artificially by the British empire and the French when the sykes-picot agreement was drawn up. Mandali, Badra and Jassan were historic Feyli Kurdish lands that connected to what we today call Iran. It literally divided families together. Ever wonder why Feylis have families in both Iraq and Iran? Because of this...

2-As stated previously the UN charter 1 disagrees with you.

 

Quote

What about Assyrians and the Sinjar and yezidis when Peshmerga took from them their weaponry so they could not defend themselves ageinst Daish and Peshmerga did not even protect them (they promised to protect them) but rather let the daish to enter to Sinjar?

1-Can you show me an actual credible reference, preferably an article that supports the claim Assyrians were in Sinjar? 

2-This was not the action of all the Peshmerga but a handful of KDP commanders, namely the head culprit Sarbast Bapiri. I clearly do not support the KDP's actions in Sinjar, so I don't see any relevance of you bringing this up. Reference: http://www.ezidipress.com/en/the-betrayal-of-shingal/

3-Plus you completely negate the fact the PUK peshmerga helped the Yezidis be sending weapons to help the Yezidi volunteers. Reference: http://www.ezidipress.com/en/the-betrayal-of-shingal/

Quote

Therefore Haydar Shesho, member of the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan (PUK) and former Iraqi MP representing the Kurdistan Alliance, mobilized 3,500 Yezidi volunteers who were supposed to defend Shingal alongside the Peshmerga.

 

Quote

Then when Daish came to conquer them, then the kurds came and conquered Sinjar? This is how easily with evilness can people take lands that don't belong to them.

1-Yezidis are Kurds, so to say Kurds conquered Kurds makes no sense whatsoever. Infact Yezidi Kurds are one of the oldest communities in Iraq, Arabs have no historic claim to Sinjar. Therefore your attempt to try and divide Kurdish groups is non-sensical. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

1-Sorry but how far are you going back to state this? You see if you go back only 100 years, Iraq never existed as a state. It was created artificially by the British empire and the French when the sykes-picot agreement was drawn up. Mandali, Badra and Jassan were historic Feyli Kurdish lands that connected to what we today call Iran. It literally divided families together. Ever wonder why Feylis have families in both Iraq and Iran? Because of this...

Lands belongs to God, not to the humans. Humans make state and they make agreements and laws. They made an agreements of state of Iraq and which part of land belong to them. The Kurds want to have their own state, this is something both should agree and make agreements or else one will be angry and start wars.

If Kurds wants their own country, then prepare that any envy, pridness and nationalistic character will go so far that it will make people regret.  

One of the kurd says in the twitter:

Its just a dream for Abadi and his entire Arab camels. We will see how many Iraqi body bags we gonna send back to Karbala and Najaf 

We have Iraqis with same lines, having this hatred towards each other because of nationalism.

 
Edited by Dhulfikar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, Dhulfikar said:

Lands belongs to God, not to the humans.

 

Then why did you use that as an argument? Now you are backpeddling...

Quote

Humans make state and they make agreements and laws. They made an agreements of state of Iraq and which part of land belong to them

Who is the "they" exactly? You see I told you the people who created Iraq didn't consent any of the local people, they drew a bunch of lines on a map and made them. 

Quote

The Kurds want to have their own state, this is something both should agree and make agreements or else one will be angry and start wars.

Actually you so conveniently ignored my link to the UN's charter 1 about self-determination. http://www.un.org/en/sections/un-charter/chapter-i/index.html

Quote
  1. To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace;

A referendum is a way of achieving self-determination because everyone has an equal say. The fact the Iraqi central gov disagree with that, goes to show they don't support the will of the Kurdish people. 

Quote

Its just a dream for Abadi and his entire Arab camels. We will see how many Iraqi body bags we gonna send back to Karbala and Najaf 

We have Iraqis with same lines, having this hatred towards each other because of nationalism.

I agree this is bad but racists exist everywhere. 

Edited by Ībn Mūneer Āl-Feylī

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

A referendum is a way of achieving self-determination because everyone has an equal say. The fact the Iraqi central gov disagree with that, goes to show they don't support the will of the Kurdish people. 

 

And I don't disagree with this. I don't disagree If Kurdish people make their own country, vote etc. How I may disagree is how they make it and how it could only give wars not only to kurds but to Iraq and other countries too, and many people will die because of the selfishness of all of them.

We just had Isis and many of our people have died and making this referendum in worst time possible.

Edited by Dhulfikar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, Ībn Mūneer Āl-Feylī said:

they drew a bunch of lines on a map and made them. 

Isn't this how most countries were created though? Most African nations were created through drawing fake lines, in many cases destroying entire tribes, but if we are to go back and undo all that, we'll be at wars with one another for eternity. So how do we counter this with the fact that people want self-determination? In Israel for example, the state should've never been created in the first place, but you're not going to get rid of all the Jews, they've been there for 2-3 generations now, and justly or unjustly, any democratic state that's formed there will have to recognize them as members of the state regardless of how their parents came to live there. They can't just say go back to Europe. Isn't it the same situation with the Kurds? Yes, Saddam massacred lots of Kurds and he forcefully moved many Arabs to predominantly Kurdish areas to try and change the demographics, but what do you do about these arabs now? Aren't they part of that land now too? I think rather than thinking in terms of land, which always seems to result in more and more conflict, maybe we ought to think in terms of we're all human and we should focus on building institutions that allow for tolerance of all people, short of that, I still think we'll have issues and wars, whether you have an independent Kurdistan or you don't. I've been reading more about the Kurdish factions, it seems there's a lot of disagreements between Kurdish groups too, so while an independent Kurdistan may yield freedom from oppression by Baghdad, it will be surrounded by hostile neighbors and also, will it be a utopia really if Kurdish political parties can't seem to agree on issues either?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Mishael said:

All so there wasn't much order even then since the Safavids and Ottomans and Mughals were always warring with each other and invading each other.

The muslims have desperately needed the leadership of someone like Imam Ali (a.s.), which we will only get upon the reappearance of the Mahdi and Jesus.

Edited by Mohamed1993

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Mohamed1993 said:

The muslims have desperately needed the leadership of someone like Imam Ali (a.s.). 

سبحان الله

Verily,

The state of the Amir al-Mu’mineen,

Has not seen a look-alike,

Over the years of oppression and deceived.

Edited by Kazemi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For forty+ years l have read and heard that the Kurds will not get their own country.

About two decades ago, l read some books on Kurdish history.

The Kurds have always been a large ethnic group and that is why 'every one' messes with them.

They are also land-locked with no pipeline treaties to subsidize their economy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In general, breaking up and forming new countries is not a good idea. A few reasons:

1.  Part of a wider divide and conquer.

2. New embassies, consulates, currency, military, government institutions, border patrols, etc have to be formed. All this takes money, which breakaway states likely won’t have much of. 

3. Treaties have to be resigned, probably on less favorable terms. Less bargaining power in negotiations, distrust from other nations. 

And other reasons probably. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Recent Posts on ShiaChat!

    • Assalaamualeykum, This is what Imam says: 1 - علي بن إبراهيم، عن أبيه، عن ابن محبوب وغيره، عن العلاء بن رزين عن محمد بن مسلم، عن أبي جعفر (عليه السلام) قال: من كان مؤمنا فعمل خيرا في إيمانه ثم أصابته فتنه فكفر ثم تاب بعد كفره كتب له وحسب بكل شئ كان عمله في إيمانه ولا يبطله الكفر إذا تاب بعد كفره. Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from his father from ibn Mahbub and others from al-‘Ala’ ibn Razin from Muhammad ibn Muslim from abu Ja’far(as), who has said the following:  “One who has been a believer and had performed good deeds then suffers a misfortune and turns to disbelief, then after disbelief repents, all of the good deeds that he had performed as a believer will be written down for him. Disbelief does not invalidate them if he repents after his disbelief.” Source: al-Kafi by Shaykh Kulayni, Vol 2, Pg 461, H 1(2).  Grading: Allamah Majlisi said hadeeth is "Hasan Kal-Saheeh" (Good like Authentic) in his Mirat ul Uqool, Vol 11, Pg 385. Shaykh Bahbudi grades this hadeeth as "Saheeh" (Authentic) in his Saheeh al-Kafi, Vol 1, Pg 133.
    • ok, all versions of this app, are pretty horrible. I'll try to look for an ebook or something,. shukran.   
    • Shukran. I deeply appreciate it. 
    • What for a person who was born in a Muslim family but was not religious and very ignorant about his deen and later realized the truth and came completely into Islam?
    • By eradicating US-backed ISIS you helped not only Muslims but also mankind Tehran (ISNA) - The Leader of the Revolution penned a message in response to Major General Qassem Soleimani’s letter on the termination of ISIS.   The following is the full text of the message: In the name of God, the most Beneficent, the most Merciful: I thank the Almighty God, from the depths of my heart, for having blessed you and your colleagues’ selfless endeavors against the vicious entity of ISIS, which was established by a tyrannical power of the world, and it was eradicated in Syria and Iraq by your hands: the pious servants of God. This was not only a blow to that cruel and notorious group, ISIS. It was a blow to the unscrupulous politicians that pursued igniting civil wars in the region, destroying anti-zionist resistance, and weakening independent states through ill-fated leaders of this deceitful group. It was a blow to the current and former United States government and their dependent regimes in the region, who created this group, and sought, in every way, to expand their abominable hegemony in the Western Asian region to strengthen the occupying Zionist regime's grip on it. By destroying this cancerous tumor, you rendered a great favor, not just to the countries in the region and the world of Islam, but to all nations and all of humanity. This was a divine reward, a true example of the ayat "You didn't shoot the arrow, but Allah did" (Qur'an), given to you and your soldiers for your continuous efforts for God. I sincerely congratulate you, nevertheless, I insist on not neglecting the enemy's mischief. Those who plotted and funded this sinister conspiracy will not sit still; and, they will try to revive it in another part of the region or in some other way. Maintaining motivation, staying alert, preserving unity, removing any dangerous elements, and maintaining cultural insightful work, in sum, all-encompassing preparations must not be forgotten. I pray to God that He protect you and all the mujahid brothers from Iraq, Syria, and other countries: I express my utmost gratitude and best regards to all of you. Peace and God's blessing be upon you, Sayyed Ali Khamenei November 21, 2017 End Item https://en.isna.ir/news/96090100156/By-eradicating-US-backed-ISIS-you-helped-not-only-Muslims-but
×