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MustafaMc

Difference between Sunni and Shi'a

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Salaam brother @MustafaMc,

someone has proven before, that shias are mathematically correct. here's how.

according to shia: islam = Quran + Ahlul Bait........(1)

according to sunni, islam = Quran + Sunnah--------(2)

subtarcting (1) from (2) (or (2) from (1), if u like),

we have Sunnah = Ahlul Bait

meaning the Sunnah of the Prophet is with Ahlul Bait.

u can find info from kitab 'uyun akhbar Imam Ali Reza (as) vol 2, if i'm not mistaken, about a letter from imam ali al-hadi (as), as a response to a question from one of his followers, that Quran itself witnesses the correctness of shias during that time. maybe, more knowledgeable bro/sis can share that info here.

having said that, i believe the world would be a better place to live in if every1

[Shakir 5:48] And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it of the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has come to you; for every one of you did We appoint a law and a way, and if Allah had pleased He would have made you (all) a single people, but that He might try you in what He gave you, therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed;

may Allah guides us all to the true path.

Edited by hoskot

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On 9/30/2017 at 8:39 PM, S.M.H.A. said:

You keep referring to and trying to confine it to the Sectarian Identity/Defined Sects as the Madhab( school of thought within fiqh (Islamic jurisprudence)) dealing with ONLY  Furu’ al-Deen( Laws governing Islamic Acts, Prayers, Fasting, Hajj, Zakat etc..)  means the branches of religion.

Islamic Acts are governed by the Beliefs/Faith. Roots of the Religion,( Usool-e-Deen) - which includes a proper understanding of the Last and the Seal of the Prophets Muhammad( peace be upon him and his pure progeny) which in turn leads to proper understanding of Tawheed.

I will hold my comments on your comments about The Tragedy of Thursday( for now)

*****

2)What happened at Saqifa.( when the supposedly believers in the Message and the Messenger, felt the need to take care of an urgent and unresolved issue of succession)

A)Tribal issues dominated Saqifa?

B)Nothing to do with Islam or the teachings/sayings/commandments of Quran/the Prophet( Ghadir Khum)?

Tribal issue purely 

 

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On 9/24/2017 at 10:45 AM, MustafaMc said:

 

I have read a few books that have given me an understanding on the Sunni-Shi'a split.

 

I provided Lecture 01 out of the series of 11or 12. These are Muharram lectures, and there are so many speakers. I am only up to the night 2. This lecture is very informative, you will gain great insight form it. You can search the rest on youtube. 

 

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13 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

Tribal issue purely 

 

You had provided few points for the first issue, I did not comment on it, for various reasons. My comments may distract us from the real issue. ( I will save it for later). Once I have your understanding on who you see the way you see these as Tribal. But this does not mean that you should not back up your claim with facts/causes. Above is just an answer to the second issue of Saqifa. , Does not provided any insight into your strong recommendation you made on page 1. 

Can you also provide few point each,  to back up your strong recommendation for 

3)Fadak

4)Battle of Jamal( Camel)

5)Battle of Siffin

6)Burial of Imam Hassan(as)

7)Karbala

 

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3 hours ago, S.M.H.A. said:

You had provided few points for the first issue, I did not comment on it, for various reasons. My comments may distract us from the real issue. ( I will save it for later). Once I have your understanding on who you see the way you see these as Tribal. But this does not mean that you should not back up your claim with facts/causes. Above is just an answer to the second issue of Saqifa. , Does not provided any insight into your strong recommendation you made on page 1. 

Can you also provide few point each,  to back up your strong recommendation for 

3)Fadak

4)Battle of Jamal( Camel)

5)Battle of Siffin

6)Burial of Imam Hassan(as)

7)Karbala

 

I cannot have a monologue with myself 

If you want to discuss post your opinions too 

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4 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

I cannot have a monologue with myself 

If you want to discuss post your opinions too 

You know my opinion and reasons.

You made this point, and that's why you were asked to back it up. If you do not want to continue. that's your choice.

 

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5 hours ago, S.M.H.A. said:

You know my opinion and reasons.

You made this point, and that's why you were asked to back it up. If you do not want to continue. that's your choice.

 

Cannot back it up in a few posts

I'll recommend some sources if you like ...and you can recommend me your sources 

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10 hours ago, S.M.H.A. said:

A personal  Property dispute it was not a political or military dispute so I'm not much interested in it 

Its between Abu bakr and Fatima 

God knows whoever was right

Btw what "inner circle " were you talking about ?

 

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7 minutes ago, Panzerwaffe said:

A personal  Property dispute it was not a political or military dispute so I'm not much interested in it 

Its between Abu bakr and Fatima 

God knows whoever was right

Btw what "inner circle " were you talking about ?

 

Are you implying that Sayeda Fatima (as) could be wrong? Are you implying that she is not ma'suma?

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12 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

A personal  Property dispute it was not a political or military dispute so I'm not much interested in it 

Its between Abu bakr and Fatima 

God knows whoever was right

Btw what "inner circle " were you talking about ?

 

Any Interest in these? Or there were just Tribal issue, Noting to do with Islam. ?

4)Battle of Jamal( Camel)

https://www.al-islam.org/restatement-history-islam-and-muslims-sayyid-ali-ashgar-razwy/battle-basra-battle-camel

5)Battle of Siffin

https://www.al-islam.org/restatement-history-islam-and-muslims-sayyid-ali-ashgar-razwy/battle-siffin

6)Burial of Imam Hassan(as)

https://www.al-islam.org/articles/imam-al-hasan-second-imam-brief-look-his-life

7)Karbala

https://www.al-islam.org/event-taff-earliest-historical-account-tragedy-karbala-abu-mikhnaf/introduction

for 4/5/7 can also refer to 

KITÃB AL-IRSHÃD tHE book of guidance into the lives of the twelve imams By: Shaykh al-Mufīd

http://www.shia-maktab.info/index.php/en/library/books/english?format=raw&task=download&fid=93

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On 9/24/2017 at 7:45 PM, MustafaMc said:

i know little about the Shi'a practice of Islam, but I see Ali as being a wealth of knowledge that is largely ignored in Sunni Islam. I am interested in learning more about the differences between Sunni and Shi'a so that I can make an informed decision as to whether I want to stay Sunni or become a Shi'a. I understand there is a difference between Sunni and Shi'a in the athan, 3 versus 5 daily salah, the mourning of Husayn's martyrdom, question of Ali's receiving secret knowledge from Muhammad as he was dying, temporary marriage, infallibility and inspiration of the 12 Imams, etc. I will appreciate open and honest discussions to help me in my decision.

We offer five daily Salah not three. But we join Zohar and Asar together and Maghrib and Isha together. This is permission but they may be offered separately.

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On 10/1/2017 at 8:55 PM, MustafaMc said:

Guys, your arguing here is rally not helping me to understand matters that I have on my mind as noted in the opening post.

@mustafaMC Dear brother asalamualaikum. 

You don't need to tag yourself as being sunni or shia. And these tags will not earn you jannah or forgiveness. 

Believe in one God Allah and his last messenger Muhammad PBUH.  

For guidance in life one should adopt hierarchy given below. 

1: Seek guidance from Quran and follow orders of Allah in quran. 

2: if you are unable to find your answer in quran then consult to hadit. Surprisingly you will hardly need to follow hadit in your daily life. Remember early muslim seek guidance from quran and even Muhammad PBUH prohibited to write his hadit. 

3: if none above worked you can seek guidance from sahabi rasool. 

As far as shia sunni division is concerned i did study history and historians who did not bong to any sect and had no religious influence. I also read shia and sunni historical point of views. 

[Mod Note: The following are not mainstream Shia beliefs.] 

Sunni version of history : They omit all bad incidents related towards four khalifas no matter its fadak or jamal or safeen they just don't want to discuss. 

Shia version of history : They justify everything hazrat ali or hazrat hussain did and cover up if they failed to do things right. They will make up stories to prove their beliefs. They will seek arguments to alter kalimya tayyabia or namaz. They can make up stories regarding names of imams. They can even use ayats regarding Christians and women of muhammad (pbuh) for hazrat ali. 

Reason is puerly political. Shias believed in religious successors of hazrat muhammad pbuh. While khalifat was puerly political seat but its criteria was set to be pious and best amongst them. After shahadat of hazrat ali umayiads were being challenged in arab and abassied used alieds as tool to gain power by telling people that they are the right leader of Islamic state. When abassied won they sort of kept distance from alieds and made their own khalifat and then alieds gathered their supporters and formed their own government. Fatimeds also used so called love for ahl e bait to gain power later in history.  Hazrat ali was not able to get power in early khalifats because he was great warrior and he killed many close relatives to leaders of tribes back then. Later his decision to not take revenge from killers of usman ra proved deadly for his khalifat and powers as khalifa. 

Another character in shiasm is abdullah ibn saba whoes existence shias deny but historians recorded his wrongdoings in conspiracy against uthman ra and declaring hazrat ali as God. 

Last words. Believe in Allah and follow what is in his book and nothing else. What sahaba did with each other will stay with them. There is no need to fight over mistakes of our leaders in history. Their actions does not count in our beliefs / aqeedah. All of companions were people who loved muhammad pbuh and were best muslims amongst us. Everyone was lucky to have company of muhammad pbuh we have to capacity to judge them. 

May Allah show us the right path. 

Edited by Hameedeh
To add the Mod Note.

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On 10/24/2017 at 2:27 AM, usman afzal said:

[Mod Note: The following are not mainstream Shia beliefs.] 

Shia version of history : They justify everything hazrat ali or hazrat hussain did and cover up if they failed to do things right. They will make up stories to prove their beliefs. They will seek arguments to alter kalimya tayyabia or namaz. They can make up stories regarding names of imams. They can even use ayats regarding Christians and women of muhammad (pbuh) for hazrat ali. 

Disagreed . You are just spreading false and baseless claims without any evidence.

Edited by skyweb1987

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On 9/24/2017 at 11:01 AM, notme said:

The Imam Reza shrine in Iran will send literature to anyone who asks. It is always a delight when I receive packages from them. I've gotten several, even though I was only expecting one. They've even followed me across three address changes. I sent them an email after learning about the program here on shiachat.

 

Thank you. I submitted my request and I received three books (God and His Attributes, The Seal of the Prophet and His Message, and Imamate and Leadership).

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On 9/24/2017 at 11:15 AM, Hassan- said:

Thank you, Brother Hassan. I have read "Then I as Guided" and now I am reading "The Shi'ah Are the Real Ahlul Sunnah" by Muhammad Tijani.

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On 10/1/2017 at 10:26 PM, saas said:

Without saying more, Muawiyah is the consequence of who?

Is there anything in particular you want to discuss? These subjects are a universe of their own, we need a small planet to get some bearings. 

Thank you for your reply.

I believe that it was Abu Bakr who first appointed Muawiyah to a post in Syria.

I do not have any specific questions right now. I am still getting a good understanding of the history. I came across a few books by Muhammad Al-Tijani Al- Samawi that seem to be very good. 

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On 10/2/2017 at 2:08 PM, shiaman14 said:

Tawheed - belief in the Oneness of Allah
Adl - belief in the justice of Allah above all else. While He is not doubt Rahman and Raheem, He will treat each person with justice.
Risalah - belief in the Prophets of Allah and Prophet Muhammad (saw) being the last, final and greatest Prophet (saw).
Imamah - belief that the Prophet (saw) named Ali (as) as his successor by the Will of Allah. There are 11 subsequent Imams after Imam Ali (as). 
Qiyamah - belief in the final Day of Judgement

Assalamu alaikum, brother @shiaman14,

Tawheed - belief in the Oneness of Allah
Yes, of course.

Adl - belief in the justice of Allah above all else.
Why do we ask for forgiveness if Allah's justice prevails and, as you said, what about Rahman and Raheem?

Risalah - belief in the Prophets of Allah and Prophet Muhammad (saw)
Yes, of course.

Imamah - belief that the Prophet (saw) named Ali (as) as his successor by the Will of Allah.
Yes, I believe that to be true.

Qiyamah - belief in the final Day of Judgement
Yes, of course.

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1 hour ago, MustafaMc said:

Thank you, Brother Hassan. I have read "Then I as Guided" and now I am reading "The Shi'ah Are the Real Ahlul Sunnah" by Muhammad Tijani.

That’s amazing to hear brother, I hope you enjoyed it and learned a few things from it. If you have any questions/concerns do let us know.

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1 hour ago, MustafaMc said:

Do Shi'as curse Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Talha, al-Zubayr, Aisha and other companions? 

Shi'as mostly say "May Allah curse the enemies of the ahlulbayt". This du'a goes to whomever was their enemy. Some Shi'as curse their enemies by name, like Umar and Abu bakr for example, but nowadays it has become haram to do that in public (according to many scholars) because it causes sectarian violence. Unity between Muslims is what we aim for, not violence. 

1 hour ago, MustafaMc said:

Do you have writings where Ali cursed them? I can imagined that he did Muawiyah.

I'm not too sure about this since I'm not too knowledgeable when it comes to hadiths and such, perhaps a brother can help you out with that. However I know one hadith where Imam Ali (as) called Abu Bakr a disbeliever: 

أبى رحمه الله قال: حدثنا علي بن إبراهيم، عن أبيه، عن ابن أبي عمير عمن ذكره عن أبي عبد الله " ع " قال: 
فقال أمير المؤمنين " ع " لأبي بكر يا أبا بكر تقر بالقرآن؟ قال بلى، قال فأخبرني عن قول الله عز وجل: (إنما يريد الله ليذهب عنكم الرجس أهل البيت ويطهركم تطهيرا) أفينا أو في غيرنا نزلت؟ قال فيكم، قال فأخبرني لو أن شاهدين من المسلمين شهدا على فاطمة عليها السلام بفاحشة ما كنت صانعا؟ قال كنت أقيم عليها الحد كما أقيم على نساء المسلمين، قال كنت اذن عند الله من الكافرين قال ولم؟ قال لأنك كنت ترد شهادة الله وتقبل شهادة غيره لان الله عز وجل قد شهد لها بالطهارة فإذا رددت شهادة الله وقبلت شهادة غيره كنت عند الله من الكافرين، قال فبكى الناس وتفرقوا ودمدموا، 

My father (ra) said: Told us `Alī bin Ibrāhīm, from his father, from Ibn Abī `Umair, from someone who reported it from Abi ‘Abdullāh (عليه السلام): 

Imām `Alī (عليه السلام) said (to Abū Bakr): "So what do you say about the verse 'O Ahl al-Bayt! Indeed Allāh wishes to drive away the impurity from you and thoroughly purify you', was it revealed for us or for other than us?" Abū Bakr said: "For you people." Imām `Alī (عليه السلام) said: "So tell me, if two witnesses from the Muslim public testified against Fāṭimah (عليه السلام) on charges of lewdness, what you would do?" Abū Bakr said: "I would establish hadd (Islamic punishment) on her, as I would on (any other) Muslim women." Imām `Alī (عليه السلام) said: "You would then be among the kuffar (disbelievers) according to Allāh." Abū Bakr said: "Why?" Imām `Alī (عليه السلام) said: "Because you would then have rejected the testimony of Allāh and accepted the testimony of the other, because Allāh has testified by the ṭahārah (purity) of Fāṭimah (in ayat al tatheer, 33:33), so when you reject the testimony of Allāh and accept the testimony of the other, you are among the kuffar according to Allāh." 

And a similar hadeeth is narrated in Tafsir al-Qummi from his father, from Muḥammad b. abi Umair, from Uthman b. ‘Isa and Hamad b. Uthman, from abi ‘Abdullāh (as). And also, a similar hadeeth can be found in Al-Ihtijaaj from Hamad bin Uthman, from abi ‘Abdullāh (as) in mursal fashion.

Source:

[1] Ilail ash-Sharai by Shaykh Al-Ṣadūq, Vol 1, Ch 151, Pg 190, H 1.

[2] Tafsir al-Qummi by Alī bin Ibrahim al-Qummi, Vol 2, Pg 155.

[3] Al-Ihtijaaj by Tabrasi, Vol 1, Pg 119.

Grading: Sayyed Hashim Hashmi said hadeeth in Tafsir al-Qummi has “Ṣaḥīḥ sanad” (Authentic Chain) in his Hawar Ma'a Fadlullah Hawl Zahra, Pg 263.

 

This article here might have some info too: http://www.shiapen.com/concise/maula-ali-considered-abu-bakr-and-umar-to-be-the-accursed-ones.html

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15 hours ago, MustafaMc said:

Adl - belief in the justice of Allah above all else.
Why do we ask for forgiveness if Allah's justice prevails and, as you said, what about Rahman and Raheem?

Salaam brother,

This is a high level summary but think about it this way. He will deal with us with His Adl for the major sins nad if we avoid the major sins, then He will forgive us the minor sins because He is Rehman and Raheem.

[Shakir 4:31] If you shun the great sins which you are forbidden, We will do away with your small sins and cause you to enter an honorable place of entering.

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