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1 hour ago, just a muslim said:

and how would you answer if a shia asked you that? do you have Ali's copy today to compare it to what we have today?

Shia already know that the Quran compiled by Imam Ali is with 12th Imam. He will bring it after occultation

Edited by skyweb1987

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23 hours ago, just a muslim said:

it's okay.

let me rephrase my questions to make it simple and precise for you guys. 

1. how was the quran compiled, according to shi'i belief?

 

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2 hours ago, IbnMariam said:

2. Which qira'ah are you referring to? You may claim they are all authentic transmissions of the Qur'an, but this claim doesn't hold water when scrutinised. As for us, the two weighty things ie the quran and ahlulbayt go hand in hand, the correct qira'ah is preserved with them in the narrations.

i am talking about 7 or 10 of the qira'at. lets go with 7, including hafs and warsh, since you may object to the authenticity of the other 3. 

could you please elaborate what you mean by "the correct qira'ah is preserved with them in the narrations"?

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2 hours ago, skyweb1987 said:

But you seem not reading the posts, 

 

the arguments in the link you provided can be easily torn apart. 

2 hours ago, skyweb1987 said:

Shia already know that the Quran compiled by Imam Ali is with 12th Imam. He will bring it after occultation

that is not what i asked. i said do we have it TODAY to compare it to the book compiled by the corrupt caliphs?

1 hour ago, skyweb1987 said:

 

i will read this and get back to you inshaAllah.

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AssalamuAlaikum brother.

i was reading a recent post and came across your comments. the world is a place full of ignorant people. so is this forum. and from what i read in your comments, you dont seem to be one of them. and you seem to be someone who has the right methodology of understanding islam. following things which are established, and not following culture. correct me if i am wrong so far.

i am not a shia. i am a "sunni", so to speak. but not someone who follows the herd. instead, i also like to follow only that which is proven. i believe we first need to sort out our usul/methodology of understanding islam, before going into issues/masail. because if two people with different methodologies differ on a mas'alah, then one's proof wont suffice the other and vice verse. 

having said that, i have a few questions. from sunnis as well as shias. some common and some different. i would like to ask you some of those questions. let me know if you would be willing to answer and discuss them. 

salam.

Alaikas-Salam brother,

Thank you for your message & kind words for me. 

Unfotunately for now, I will not be able to answer any of your question because of my personal involvement in moharram processions & majalis.

You are free to send me your questions, I will try to answer them when free.

Wassalam

 

yeah no hurries. you can respond to them after that whenever you get the time. ill just list a few of them below.

1. quran is the word of Allah. the final book. how do you know what we have today is the same quran that was revealed to prophet muhammad pbuh? and i hope you are aware of the fallacy of circular reasoning and dont provided me with quranic ayaat as evidence such as 15:9 where Allah says to protect the dhikr. if not, i can explain.

2. a slightly technical question about hadith sciences(and i have similar issues with sunni hadith sciences as well). a shia friend told me that you guys dont accept a hadith contradictory to the quran even if the sanad is authentic. i find some issues with that. basically, that means that an authentic sanad in and of itself is not sufficient to authenticate any hadith. you have to compare it to the quran. my question is, that means you are not sure that even a sahih sanad will give you an authentic hadith. and then, majority of ahadith are not about stuff relating to quran. for example, if there is a hadith which says to read surah ikhlas at night, this hadith can not possibly contradict OR compliment the quran in any way. so, even if the sanad of this hadith is authentic, you cant be sure of whether or not the hadith is authentic. get it? 

and i repeat: this is not to imply that sunni hadith literature is correct. like i said, i have similar questions for sunnis as well. 

 

salam.

  On 9/23/2017 at 10:13 PM, just a muslim said:

. quran is the word of Allah. the final book. how do you know what we have today is the same quran that was revealed to prophet muhammad pbuh? and i hope you are aware of the fallacy of circular reasoning and dont provided me with quranic ayaat as evidence such as 15:9 where Allah says to protect the dhikr. if not, i can explain.

1a. If this is not the quran revealed to Prophet Muhammad (peace & blessings of Allah be upon him & his pure progeny), there must exist another quran among us which at least claimed to be revealed on Prophet. Are there any other Quran among us?

1b. And since there is no other Quran exist among us and since the only one which exists has no contradiction in itself as it claims, and because of the "matn" of existing Quran we are sure that this is the Quran revealed on Prophet.

  On 9/23/2017 at 10:13 PM, just a muslim said:

my question is, that means you are not sure that even a sahih sanad will give you an authentic hadith. and then, majority of ahadith are not about stuff relating to quran. for example, if there is a hadith which says to read surah ikhlas at night, this hadith can not possibly contradict OR compliment the quran in any way. so, even if the sanad of this hadith is authentic, you cant be sure of whether or not the hadith is authentic. get it? 

This usool has been mentioned to us by Prophet himself as well as couple of Imams. Hadith cannot contradict Quran in anyway or in any manner.

Reading Sura e Ikhlas thrice at night before sleep has been taught by Prophet and it is not contradicting to Quran because of this verse:

Surah Aal-e-Imran, Verse 191:

الَّذِينَ يَذْكُرُونَ اللَّهَ قِيَامًا وَقُعُودًا وَعَلَىٰ جُنُوبِهِمْ وَيَتَفَكَّرُونَ فِي خَلْقِ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ رَبَّنَا مَا خَلَقْتَ هَٰذَا بَاطِلًا سُبْحَانَكَ فَقِنَا عَذَابَ النَّارِ

Those who remember Allah standing and sitting and lying on their sides (before sleep) and reflect on the creation of the heavens and the earth: Our Lord! Thou hast not created this in vain! Glory be to Thee; save us then from the chastisement of the fire:

(English - Shakir)

  On 9/24/2017 at 0:37 AM, Salsabeelsaid:

1a. If this is not the quran revealed to Prophet Muhammad (peace & blessings of Allah be upon him & his pure progeny), there must exist another quran among us which at least claimed to be revealed on Prophet. Are there any other Quran among us?

1b. And since there is no other Quran exist among us and since the only one which exists has no contradiction in itself as it claims, and because of the "matn" of existing Quran we are sure that this is the Quran revealed on Prophet.

1a and 1b. not necessarily. there exists only one jewish scripture today. but it is not the same as what was given to Moses pbuh. so, only one quran existing doesnt make it the same one that was revealed.

also, in surah fatiha, third ayah. how do you read it? maaaalik? or malik?

  On 9/24/2017 at 0:51 AM, Salsabeelsaid:

This usool has been mentioned to us by Prophet himself as well as couple of Imams. Hadith cannot contradict Quran in anyway or in any manner.

Reading Sura e Ikhlas thrice at night before sleep has been taught by Prophet and it is not contradicting to Quran because of this verse:

Surah Aal-e-Imran, Verse 191:

الَّذِينَ يَذْكُرُونَ اللَّهَ قِيَامًا وَقُعُودًا وَعَلَىٰ جُنُوبِهِمْ وَيَتَفَكَّرُونَ فِي خَلْقِ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ رَبَّنَا مَا خَلَقْتَ هَٰذَا بَاطِلًا سُبْحَانَكَ فَقِنَا عَذَابَ النَّارِ

Those who remember Allah standing and sitting and lying on their sides (before sleep)and reflect on the creation of the heavens and the earth: Our Lord! Thou hast not created this in vain! Glory be to Thee; save us then from the chastisement of the fire:

(English - Shakir)

i agree hadith cant contradict quran in any way. but that isnt my question. what i am saying is, a hadith with a sahih sanad cant/shouldnt contradict the quran. you shouldnt have to check it against the quran even after the sanad is authentic.

we also have a hadith where the prophet pbuh told us this usool. but it is classed as weak near us. can you refer me to your source so i may see if it is the same one?

surah ikhlas was just an example. for example, eating with the right hand, or doing stuff with the right side first. or eating dates/khajoor. these cant be checked against the quran. how then can we be sure that these are indeed authentic?

  On 9/24/2017 at 6:26 AM, just a muslimsaid:

not necessarily. there exists only one jewish scripture today. but it is not the same as what was given to Moses pbuh. so, only one quran existing doesnt make it the same one that was revealed.

 

  On 9/24/2017 at 0:37 AM, Salsabeelsaid:

since the only one which exists has no contradiction in itself as it claims, and because of the "matn" of existing Quran we are sure that this is the Quran revealed on Prophet

The jewish dishonesty is challanged by Quran. Do you know any scripture revealed after Quran, challenging the existing Quran?

Whether you read "maaalik" or "malik", there is no change in the meaning.

  On 9/24/2017 at 6:34 AM, just a muslimsaid:

what i am saying is, a hadith with a sahih sanad cant/shouldnt contradict the quran. you shouldnt have to check it against the quran even after the sanad is authentic.

Ok, lets take an example of a hadith which is claimed to have authentic chain but mentioning that "if there were a nabi after me, you will be that, O Umar".

Second thing, Quran itself gives us the hint that people will try to conceal truth or mixup the truth & falsehood

Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 42:

وَلَا تَلْبِسُوا الْحَقَّ بِالْبَاطِلِ وَتَكْتُمُوا الْحَقَّ وَأَنتُمْ تَعْلَمُونَ

And do not mix up the truth with the falsehood, nor hide the truth while you know (it).

(English - Shakir)

One way of doing that is by inventing ahadith.

Thirdly, why should not we check ahadith with Quran while Quran is the "Furqan". If some claim that the verse "Abassa wa Tawalla" (he frowned & turned his back) is pointing towards Prophet, we check that claim with Quran.

  On 9/24/2017 at 6:37 AM, Salsabeelsaid:

 

The jewish dishonesty is challanged by Quran. Do you know any scripture revealed after Quran, challenging the existing Quran?

Whether you read "maaalik" or "malik", there is no change in the meaning.

no i dont. but see, this does not prove that what we have today is indeed what was revealed 1400 years ago. i mean, how do you or the shias know that everything good/scientific and related to khatm e nabuwwat and about Allah protecting the quran wasnt added later? i know how i know that. it's not merely a belief. my belief is that the book revealed to the prophet pbuh 1400 years ago was by Allah. my Actual knowledge, which no one can deny, is that what we have today is the same book. i want to know how you know that. 

the meaning is slightly different. but that's not my point here. my point is, do the shia believe both ways of pronunciation are correct? and by extension, do they believe there are different ways to recite the quran too? different recitations/qira'at?

  On 9/24/2017 at 6:54 AM, Salsabeelsaid:

Ok, lets take an example of a hadith which is claimed to have authentic chain but mentioning that "if there were a nabi after me, you will be that, O Umar".

Second thing, Quran itself gives us the hint that people will try to conceal truth or mixup the truth & falsehood

Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 42:

وَلَا تَلْبِسُوا الْحَقَّ بِالْبَاطِلِ وَتَكْتُمُوا الْحَقَّ وَأَنتُمْ تَعْلَمُونَ

And do not mix up the truth with the falsehood, nor hide the truth while you know (it).

(English - Shakir)

One way of doing that is by inventing ahadith.

Thirdly, why should not we check ahadith with Quran while Quran is the "Furqan". If some claim that the verse "Abassa wa Tawalla" (he frowned & turned his back) is pointing towards Prophet, we check that claim with Quran.

yes i agree. checking everything against the quran is good. to rephrase my question simply, can every hadith in the shia literature be compared against the quran to check for contradiction?

  On 9/24/2017 at 7:34 AM, just a muslimsaid:

can every hadith in the shia literature be compared against the quran to check for contradiction?

Yes, if anyone want to check that, he is allowed to check whether it is contradicting with Quran or not.

But one must possess the required expertise and knowledge for doing that.

  •  
  On 9/24/2017 at 7:33 AM, just a muslimsaid:

how do you or the shias know that everything good/scientific and related to khatm e nabuwwat and about Allah protecting the quran wasnt added later?

:) If adding something in Quran is so easy, people would have tried to accept the challenge of Allah & would have tried to create/invent a verse or a chapter like Quran.

Are you a Qadiyani or Ahmadi?

  On 9/24/2017 at 7:33 AM, just a muslimsaid:

my Actual knowledge, which no one can deny, is that what we have today is the same book. i want to know how you know that. 

I cannot repeat again & again :)

Hope that you will not try to waste your & my time. 

  On 9/24/2017 at 7:58 AM, Salsabeelsaid:

:) If adding something in Quran is so easy, people would have tried to accept the challenge of Allah & would have tried to create/invent a verse or a chapter like Quran.

Are you a Qadiyani or Ahmadi?

I cannot repeat again & again :)

Hope that you will not try to waste your & my time. 

lol no. not a qadiani/ahmadi.

can you link me to a book/article which explains the compilation of the quran from the shi'i perspective?

Edited by Salsabeel

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6 hours ago, just a muslim said:

that is not what i asked. i said do we have it TODAY to compare it to the book compiled by the corrupt caliphs?

Earlier sunni caliphs made its comparison IMPOSSIBLE then and afterwards when they rejected the Quran compiled by Imam Ali. AS.

I can just have sympathy  on your such a wish.

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3 hours ago, skyweb1987 said:

Earlier sunni caliphs made its comparison IMPOSSIBLE then and afterwards when they rejected the Quran compiled by Imam Ali. AS.

I can just have sympathy  on your such a wish.

He himself is sure that the existing Quran is the Quran revealed on Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), but want to know how Shia are sure that this is the Quran which was revealed on Prophet. He don't want the Quranic verses as a proof. So I gave him the answer using reason & logic. And you can see, he is just repeating his questions knowing that the answer has been furnished.

Lets talk about the existing Quran. And in that context I want to ask some questions:

1. Why Quran is not in accordance with its order of revelation?
2. Why the very first verse revealed ("Iqra bisme Rabbikallathi") is present in the 96th chapter?
3. And what does that mention to you? Are those who have collected the Quran unaware of the order of revelation of Quran?
4. Was there no one among the companion of Prophet who was aware of the order of revelation of Quran?

Please answer these questions. @just a muslim  

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14 hours ago, skyweb1987 said:

 

thanks a lot for sharing this link. this is exactly what i was looking for. may Allah reward you for it with goodness.

6 hours ago, skyweb1987 said:

Earlier sunni caliphs made its comparison IMPOSSIBLE then and afterwards when they rejected the Quran compiled by Imam Ali. AS.

I can just have sympathy  on your such a wish.

as for this, even if it were true, i have no reason to continue as i found the answer to my question about quran as i expected it. 

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3 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

He himself is sure that the existing Quran is the Quran revealed on Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), but want to know how Shia are sure that this is the Quran which was revealed on Prophet. He don't want the Quranic verses as a proof. So I gave him the answer using reason & logic. And you can see, he is just repeating his questions knowing that the answer has been furnished.

Lets talk about the existing Quran. And in that context I want to ask some questions:

1. Why Quran is not in accordance with its order of revelation?
2. Why the very first verse revealed ("Iqra bisme Rabbikallathi") is present in the 96th chapter?
3. And what does that mention to you? Are those who have collected the Quran unaware of the order of revelation of Quran?
4. Was there no one among the companion of Prophet who was aware of the order of revelation of Quran?

Please answer these questions. @just a muslim  

yes. you explained. and i would have told you how that is not a logical answer if you didnt feel it was a waste of time. but that's quite alright now. i am satisfied with what the brother shared.

as for the questions, they are not exactly related so i dont want to answer them here to prevent the thread from derailing. but feel free to start a new thread and ill respond to these questions there inshaAllah.

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21 hours ago, just a muslim said:

salam brother.

i read the questions you posted to your scholars and to be honest, you hit the nail on the head. these are exactly some of the questions i am looking answers for, and not just from shias. very similar questions apply to sunni literature as well. did you get any response to the questions where you were told that it is better to answer you in person? it would be really really helpful if you did.

Unfortunately, since I could not travel to meet them in person I was unable to get an answer from their office. However, other scholarly responses and texts, which I shared in that thread, answered those questions.

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On 9/26/2017 at 1:55 PM, just a muslim said:

thanks a lot for sharing this link. this is exactly what i was looking for. may Allah reward you for it with goodness.

Thanks for response.

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