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On 9/23/2017 at 1:19 AM, SunniBrother said:

lol. Yes sometimes I fail to back up my claims, but if you research you'll see where I am coming from. Brother I am not Wikipedia having all references and links and sources to drop whenever people ask. A lot of Muslim scholars make claim as well, when you go to Khutba they usually talk without referring to texts, how do you know all scholars are truthful? When you ask a fatwa they give a fatwa give a reference here and there, I bet you can't even tell if that's true or not because you don't have their books to check if they are making up or telling you something stupid. If you want to build your religion upon a bunch of texts based approach perhaps you could go full Salafi, this is where you need to get out of the Taqlid I Aqeedah and Hadith based thinking.

if you make baseless claims, i will make the exact opposite claim. for example, if you say imam ahmad said something, i will say he said the opposite of that. if you dont know your source, you are done for right there. for all you know, i could be right and you could be wrong. and i certainly wont take back what i say. so, to avoid all the hassle every time, i ask you to present the source with the evidence.

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On 9/23/2017 at 1:01 PM, Faruk said:

Then  you should use the arguments Allah gave to us through that same Quran,

You can tell them there is a sanad but then still they could ask you but then how you know Muhammad s.a.w.a.s. is a Prophet?

This sanad argument is invented to give ahaadith, sunni ahaadith in this case the same credibility as the Quran itself.

Above all the sanad doesn't make the content of that what is transmitted more truthful or not.

It's the message itself that should be judged.

you are being circular here. i am asking you how do you know this book is the quran. and you are saying that you know this book is the quran because this book says so. you cant use the subject to prove itself. 

i am not your normal sunni. i do not believe that just because the sanad is authentic it grants the hadith the same status as the quran. Allah promised to protect the dhikr i.e. the quran. no such promise exists for hadith. so, you can stop preaching that to me.

i am saying that the sanad gets us from today to 1400 years ago. as for Muhammad saw being a prophet, then that is our belief because of the amazingness of the quran, among other things. 

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1 hour ago, Salsabeel said:

:bismillah:

Surah Al-Anaam, Verse 122:

أَوَمَن كَانَ مَيْتًا فَأَحْيَيْنَاهُ وَجَعَلْنَا لَهُ نُورًا يَمْشِي بِهِ فِي النَّاسِ كَمَن مَّثَلُهُ فِي الظُّلُمَاتِ لَيْسَ بِخَارِجٍ مِّنْهَا كَذَٰلِكَ زُيِّنَ لِلْكَافِرِينَ مَا كَانُوا يَعْمَلُونَ

 

Surah Yunus, Verse 100:

وَمَا كَانَ لِنَفْسٍ أَن تُؤْمِنَ إِلَّا بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ وَيَجْعَلُ الرِّجْسَ عَلَى الَّذِينَ لَا يَعْقِلُونَ

 

where does this define imaan as what the other guy said? 

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10 minutes ago, just a muslim said:

who said anything about ahadith? stop making assumptions that i am trying to justify ahadtih using the quran. i am simply asking about the quran for it's own reasons. not for hadith. the two questions i asked are completely unrelated. 

the quran does not need any human sciences to be true. nobody said that. tell me this. what do you mean when you say Qur'an?

Well I'm sorry brother.

The questions you asked were connected to eachother in a Quranite - Ahlul Hadith discussion once in Speakers Corner.

My apologies for my prejudgment.

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11 minutes ago, just a muslim said:

you are being circular here. i am asking you how do you know this book is the quran. and you are saying that you know this book is the quran because this book says so. you cant use the subject to prove itself. 

Well I read the Bible and then the Quran several times and I discovered that the questions and inconsistencies I found in the Bible while still a christian were perfectly and clearly anwsered by the Quran. Not like the nowadays Bible that tells us to believe in the Trinity without a clear explanation.

You forgot to mention that I stated that the Quran is the only Sacred Book that challenges us to use reason to find the truth. That is no circular reasoning but the opposite.  

Just as Prophet Ibrahim a.s. did not use the Word of Allah but reason and logic to convince his people and the tyrants of his time how wrong they were.

 

Edited by Faruk

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6 minutes ago, Faruk said:

Well I'm sorry brother.

The questions you asked were connected to eachother in a Quranite - Ahlul Hadith discussion once in Speakers Corner.

My apologies for my prejudgment.

it's okay.

let me rephrase my questions to make it simple and precise for you guys. 

1. how was the quran compiled, according to shi'i belief?

2. how do you know how to recite the quran?

as a cross reference, i will give you the sunni answers for both questions.

1. the quran was compiled first by abu bakr, he gave the mushaf to umar. who gave it to hafsa, his daughter.second compilation was done by uthman. he compiled it all over again and it matched with the mushaf with hafsa. the mushaf compiled by uthman, mushaf e uthmani, is available to us even today in the same exact form in at least two places. the museum in turkey and in russia. apart from the differences in script, it is the same quran we have today, word by word. letter by letter.

2. the mushaf of uthman is a written book. but quran is also recited. so, how do we know how to recite it? because the mushaf of uthman hasnt got the vowel signs i.e. fath, damma and kasra or the zeyr, zabar and paysh. we still know how to recite it. how? because we have numerous/mutawatir chains of narrations that go back to the prophet pbuh of the entire recital of the quran. 

i am looking for the shi'i version of my questions/answers.

Edited by just a muslim

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1 minute ago, just a muslim said:

thats fine. 

let me rephrase my questions to make it simple and precise for you guys. 

1. how was the quran compiled, according to shi'i belief?

2. how do you know how to recite the quran?

as a cross reference, i will give you the sunni answers for both questions.

1. the quran was compiled first by abu bakr, he gave the mushaf to umar. who gave it to hafsa, his daughter.second compilation was done by uthman. he compiled it all over again and it matched with the mushaf with hafsa. the mushaf compiled by uthman, mushaf e uthmani, is available to us even today in the same exact form in at least two places. the museum in turkey and in russia. apart from the differences in script, it is the same quran we have today, word by word. letter by letter.

2. the mushaf of uthman is a written book. but quran is also recited. so, how do we know how to recite it? because the mushaf of uthman hasnt got the vowel signs i.e. fath, damma and kasra or the zeyr, zabar and paysh. we still know how to recite it. how? because we have numerous/mutawatir chains of narrations that go back to the prophet pbuh of the entire recital of the quran. 

i am looking for the shi'i version of my questions/answers.

Good question! Looking forward for the anwser.

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9 hours ago, just a muslim said:

where does this define imaan as what the other guy said? 

Death has been used in this verse in the sense of the absence of the light of faith, and life in the sense of a fully aware conscience guiding the soul to the right path; but wherever the "bringing of the dead to life" is mentioned in the Quran this interpretation (an ignorant disbeliever is shown light to make him a believer) does not apply.

Lets see few more verses, if you are still  not sure that emaan is light:

وَمَن لَّمْ يَجْعَلِ اللَّهُ لَهُ نُورًا فَمَا لَهُ مِن نُّورٍ

24:40

 

مَا كُنتَ تَدْرِي مَا الْكِتَابُ وَلَا الْإِيمَانُ وَلَكِن جَعَلْنَاهُ نُورًا

42:52

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6 hours ago, hoskot said:

1. personally i believe the Prophet tasked the compilation of the Quran into book form to imam ali (as).

2. i learned it thru a quranic teacher.

i found the link below quite an interesting read.

http://www.shiapen.com/questions/separating-quran-from-family.html

1. well, the thing is, belief is subjective. you may believe that. but someone else may believe the opposite of that. unless either side can back up their belief, there is no point to state beliefs.

2. how did that teacher know how to recite the quran

 

did you read the link? all of it? i would be more than happy to discuss it. most of it is simply conjecture. no evidence is provided. just a big conspiracy theory of sorts. and the references are to books written by people, which i dont care about. i care about references to the quran and hadith. besides, shah wali ullah in his last book hujjat ullah al baalighah made ruju' from all his previous works, books and beliefs. 

there are a few ahadith mentioned too. some have been made out to sound troubling. while the others actually do sound troubling at face value. but even if one were to assume that all these "accusations" were true, that still wouldnt mean the conjecture made through out the article is true.

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7 hours ago, Salsabeel said:

Death has been used in this verse in the sense of the absence of the light of faith, and life in the sense of a fully aware conscience guiding the soul to the right path; but wherever the "bringing of the dead to life" is mentioned in the Quran this interpretation (an ignorant disbeliever is shown light to make him a believer) does not apply.

the verse says he was dead so we gave him life and made/provided for him a light. getting life is equivalent to iman. the light, by which he walks, is the quran or islam. 

i dont understand the last part of what you said.

 

regardless, he said we have iman that quran is Allah's word. i dont disagree with him. my question was, and is, how do we, or rather the shi'a, know the book today is the quran. that no additions were made to it. nothing removed from it? saying that it is your belief or iman then that belief or iman is not necessarily in quran, but rather in the book that we have today. if you claim this is the quran, you have to prove it, by explaining how it was compiled. you dont have to answer that if you think it is a waste of time. i dont mind waiting for others.

Edited by just a muslim

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26 minutes ago, just a muslim said:

getting life is equivalent to iman. the light, by which he walks, is the quran or islam. 

:) You are saying that emaan comes first and Islam comes afterwards? Lets see another verse so that the matter of emaan with Qalb gets clear to you, as well as which thing comes first:

قَالَتِ الْأَعْرَابُ آمَنَّا قُل لَّمْ تُؤْمِنُوا وَلَكِن قُولُوا أَسْلَمْنَا وَلَمَّا يَدْخُلِ الْإِيمَانُ فِي قُلُوبِكُمْ
49:14

36 minutes ago, just a muslim said:

my question was, and is, how do we, or rather the shi'a, know the book today is the quran. that no additions were made to it. nothing removed from it?

I think you have discussed this matter with me on PM's.

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1 hour ago, just a muslim said:

1. well, the thing is, belief is subjective. you may believe that. but someone else may believe the opposite of that. unless either side can back up their belief, there is no point to state beliefs.

salam bro,

thanks for reminding. however, mine is quite well-founded, like so:

There is no dispute among Muslim scholars, whether they are Sunni or Shi’a, concerning the fact that the Commander of Believers, ‘Ali (as), possessed a special transcript of the text of Qur’an which he had collected himself, and he was THE FIRST who compiled Qur’an.

https://www.al-islam.org/shiite-encyclopedia-ahlul-bayt-dilp-team/belief-shia-in-completeness-quran#qur’-compiled-imam-‘ali

1 hour ago, just a muslim said:

2. how did that teacher know how to recite the quran

he learnt it from his teacher.:grin: 

dear bro, i believe all information is already out there somewhere. the best thing to do is to listen to _all_ words and follow the best of them. may Allah guides us all to the right path.

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29 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

:) You are saying that emaan comes first and Islam comes afterwards? Lets see another verse so that the matter of emaan with Qalb gets clear to you, as well as which thing comes first:

قَالَتِ الْأَعْرَابُ آمَنَّا قُل لَّمْ تُؤْمِنُوا وَلَكِن قُولُوا أَسْلَمْنَا وَلَمَّا يَدْخُلِ الْإِيمَانُ فِي قُلُوبِكُمْ
49:14

I think you have discussed this matter with me on PM's.

this verse is about the hypocrites. 

and yes. which is why i said i dont expect an answer from you :)

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5 minutes ago, hoskot said:

salam bro,

thanks for reminding. however, mine is quite well-founded, like so:

There is no dispute among Muslim scholars, whether they are Sunni or Shi’a, concerning the fact that the Commander of Believers, ‘Ali (as), possessed a special transcript of the text of Qur’an which he had collected himself, and he was THE FIRST who compiled Qur’an.

https://www.al-islam.org/shiite-encyclopedia-ahlul-bayt-dilp-team/belief-shia-in-completeness-quran#qur’-compiled-imam-‘ali

he learnt it from his teacher.:grin: 

dear bro, i believe all information is already out there somewhere. the best thing to do is to listen to _all_ words and follow the best of them. may Allah guides us all to the right path.

if Ali had a transcript, where is it today? do we have it today so that we can compare it with the one we do have?

 

yes. i realized that. i am asking if the shia also have isnads going back to the prophet pbuh. and it may seem obvious to you. but i am looking for proof/knowledge of it. because i have a follow up question on that. 

yes. tried to look for this information but couldnt find it. hence came here.

ameen.

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15 minutes ago, just a muslim said:

this verse is about the hypocrites. 

Hmm, so you think God's policy is different for hypocrites. Non hypocrite recieve emaan first & Islam later. Lets see another verse for understanding this issue:

فَمَن يُرِدِ اللّهُ أَن يَهْدِيَهُ يَشْرَحْ صَدْرَهُ لِلإِسْلاَمِ 

6:125

And here is full verse with translation:

Surah Al-Anaam, Verse 125:

فَمَن يُرِدِ اللَّهُ أَن يَهْدِيَهُ يَشْرَحْ صَدْرَهُ لِلْإِسْلَامِ وَمَن يُرِدْ أَن يُضِلَّهُ يَجْعَلْ صَدْرَهُ ضَيِّقًا حَرَجًا كَأَنَّمَا يَصَّعَّدُ فِي السَّمَاءِ كَذَٰلِكَ يَجْعَلُ اللَّهُ الرِّجْسَ عَلَى الَّذِينَ لَا يُؤْمِنُونَ

Therefore (for) whomsoever Allah intends that He would guide him aright, He expands his breast for Islam, and (for) whomsoever He intends that He should cause him to err, He makes his breast strait and narrow as though he were ascending upwards; thus does Allah lay uncleanness on those who do not believe.

(English - Shakir)

15 minutes ago, just a muslim said:

and yes. which is why i said i dont expect an answer from you :)

:) I was wondering to share that discussions here on this thread.

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20 hours ago, just a muslim said:

i am not talking about tahreef. i want to know the shia view of the compilation of the quran. how they say it was compiled. not that it is complete. 

Response has been given that  you asked for.

Regards

Edited by skyweb1987

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1 hour ago, just a muslim said:

if Ali had a transcript, where is it today? do we have it today so that we can compare it with the one we do have

Sorry brother your earlier caliphs  missed the chance to make its comparison when they rejected and denied the Quran complied by Imam Ali. 

Edited by skyweb1987

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2 hours ago, skyweb1987 said:

Response has been given that  you asked for.

Regards

where?

2 hours ago, skyweb1987 said:

Sorry brother your earlier caliphs  missed the chance to make its comparison when they rejected and denied the Quran complied by Imam Ali. 

and how would you answer if a shia asked you that? do you have Ali's copy today to compare it to what we have today?

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3 hours ago, Abbas. said:

 

salam brother.

i read the questions you posted to your scholars and to be honest, you hit the nail on the head. these are exactly some of the questions i am looking answers for, and not just from shias. very similar questions apply to sunni literature as well. did you get any response to the questions where you were told that it is better to answer you in person? it would be really really helpful if you did.

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On 21/09/2017 at 3:26 AM, just a muslim said:

i have a few questions and hope some knowledgeable brother can answer these.

1. can you explain the shia usul e hadith? in brief for now. especially how you guys check the sanad and matn and reject whatever goes against the quran.

2. how do you know the quran that we have today is the same quran that was revealed to the prophet pbuh? is it just a belief, like christians believe the bible is the true word of god that jesus preached or whatever. or do you have proof that the quran today is the same quran 1438 years ago. and jbtw, this has nothing to do with tahreef, in case anyone goes there. i am coming from a different point of view. 

just these two for now. a lot more to follow inshaAllah.

2. Which qira'ah are you referring to? You may claim they are all authentic transmissions of the Qur'an, but this claim doesn't hold water when scrutinised. As for us, the two weighty things ie the quran and ahlulbayt go hand in hand, the correct qira'ah is preserved with them in the narrations.

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