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1 hour ago, eThErEaL said:

It is not through belief but it is through iman (which is a light that God casts into the heart of whosoever He will) that we come to acknowledge that the Quran is the eternal word of God manifested on the relative/human plane through language.  

do you mean to say that there is no difference between your belief in quran and a christians belief in the bible? or the jew's belief in the torah?

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1 minute ago, just a muslim said:

do you mean to say that there is no difference between your belief in quran and a christians belief in the bible? or the jew's belief in the torah?

So this is what I said:

 

Quote

It is not through belief

 

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5 minutes ago, IbnMariam said:

Really? Interesting to hear. Who are they and which twelver scholars do they take ideas from/what are those ideas?

do not listen to him. from what i have seen, this guy loves to make claims but fails to back them up. and is usually incorrect about them.

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8 minutes ago, just a muslim said:

lol bro belief and imam are the same thing. 

Does the Quran say that the English word "belief" and the Arabic word "iman" are synonymous?  Does the Prophet of Islam (S) say that?

Does the English dictionary define belief in the following way:  "it is a light that God casts into the heart of whomsoever He wills"?

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27 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

Does the Quran say that the English word "belief" and the Arabic word "iman" are synonymous?  Does the Prophet of Islam (S) say that?

Does the English dictionary define belief in the following way:  "it is a light that God casts into the heart of whomsoever He wills"?

yes. as a matter of fact, the arabic dictionary says iman means belief.

hans wehr. al qaamoos al waheed. misbah ul lughat. just a few dictionaries that mention iman as belief. 

Edited by just a muslim

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24 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

Does the Quran say that the English word "belief" and the Arabic word "iman" are synonymous?  Does the Prophet of Islam (S) say that?

Does the English dictionary define belief in the following way:  "it is a light that God casts into the heart of whomsoever He wills"?

which arabic dictionary defines iman as "a light that God casts into the heart of whomsoever He wills?"

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49 minutes ago, just a muslim said:

as for 15:9, then this is a circular argument. 

how do you know this verse was revealed by Allah? this verse, at the very least, could be a fabrication, hypothetically speaking. it is a circular argument as well. if i have to prove that i am honest, my saying that i am honest wont prove that i am honest.

I believe in Quran thats present form ore than 1400 years without any change and this argument remains inside Quran. 

How  do you doubt about the verse of quran?

 If you doubt these verses then how are you Muslim? as per your ID "Just a muslim"

These are contradictory statements.. Are not these?

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20 minutes ago, skyweb1987 said:

I believe in Quran thats present form ore than 1400 years without any change and this argument remains inside Quran. 

How  do you doubt about the verse of quran?

 If you doubt these verses then how are you Muslim? as per your ID "Just a muslim"

These are contradictory statements.. Are not these?

i do not doubt any singe letter of the quran. my BELIEF is that the quran is from Allah. and i have flawless reasons/evidence to believe that the quran we have today is the same as it was at the time of prophet pbuh.

i am asking these questions from a non muslim's perspective. 

if a christian comes to you and says: "since you claim the bible was changed, how do you know the quran wasnt changed? that it is the same as the time of muhammad pbu?" you cant say to him that you "believe" it is from God. because he also believes the bible is from God. then that would mean you are essentially as correct in your belief as he is in his belief. THAT does not make islam true. 

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20 minutes ago, skyweb1987 said:

I believe in Quran thats present form ore than 1400 years without any change and this argument remains inside Quran. 

How  do you doubt about the verse of quran?

 If you doubt these verses then how are you Muslim? as per your ID "Just a muslim"

These are contradictory statements.. Are not these?

i do not doubt any singe letter of the quran. my BELIEF is that the quran is from Allah. and i have flawless reasons/evidence to believe that the quran we have today is the same as it was at the time of prophet pbuh.

i am asking these questions from a non muslim's perspective. 

if a christian comes to you and says: "since you claim the bible was changed, how do you know the quran wasnt changed? that it is the same as the time of muhammad pbu?" you cant say to him that you "believe" it is from God. because he also believes the bible is from God. then that would mean you are essentially as correct in your belief as he is in his belief. THAT does not make islam true. 

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2 hours ago, just a muslim said:

the link you gave is a sunni narrative. i want the shi'i narrative. and no. they are not the same. sunni narrative uses sunni sources which the shi'i may or may not accept. 

The link i have quoted earlier mentions only the verses of quran and arguments on the basis of these verses. there is no single narration from any sunni source. 

It also describe about the present bible becoming changed and not from Allah swt. 

If you like to see the Shia ulema views regarding the protection and completeness of quran, the following link may be helpful:

http://www.shiapen.com/comprehensive/tahreef/shia-scholars-completeness-quran.html

Regards

Edited by skyweb1987

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1 hour ago, just a muslim said:

yes. as a matter of fact, the arabic dictionary says iman means belief.

hans wehr. al qaamoos al waheed. misbah ul lughat. just a few dictionaries that mention iman as belief. 

Yes.  And they are all wrong.  

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On ‎21‎-‎9‎-‎2017 at 4:26 AM, just a muslim said:

i have a few questions and hope some knowledgeable brother can answer these.

1. can you explain the shia usul e hadith? in brief for now. especially how you guys check the sanad and matn and reject whatever goes against the quran.

2. how do you know the quran that we have today is the same quran that was revealed to the prophet pbuh? is it just a belief, like christians believe the bible is the true word of god that jesus preached or whatever. or do you have proof that the quran today is the same quran 1438 years ago. and jbtw, this has nothing to do with tahreef, in case anyone goes there. i am coming from a different point of view. 

just these two for now. a lot more to follow inshaAllah.

Does a chain of ten men between you and the Prophet s.a.w.a.s. make the Prophet s.a.w.a.s. more reliable than when you hear him s.a.w.a.s. directly speaking to you?

Are you going to use the sanad argument for Quran to support ahaadith

i.e.

If the reliability of the Quran is based on sanad than that same reliabitly must be applied to ahaadith as well and vice versa?

It just reminded me of a Quranist Vs Salafi/Sunni or whatever on SC/SpeakersCorner.

1. The Quran is the Word of Allah - Ahaadith are the wordings of men

2. The Quran is protected - Ahaadith are not protected.

3. All sects have diffirent ahaadith collections and their ilm rijal differs from sect to sect as political favourism and internal wars played a significant role.

Above all, once the Holy Quran was revealed and when the Quraish heard it live and direct from the Prophet s.a.w.a.s. himself they did not matter about sanad but just could not believe it was the Word of Allah.

The testimony of the Quran itself should be enough for the true believer. There are no inconsistencies in it and one who uses reason will know it's the truth. Very fair and unbiased arguments. There are more arguments but it does not mention sanad or any other human science.



 

Edited by Faruk

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3 hours ago, IbnMariam said:

Really? Interesting to hear. Who are they and which twelver scholars do they take ideas from/what are those ideas?

They don't take ideas I think. I think they just teach how Twelvers read their hadiths, Usuli of course.

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3 hours ago, just a muslim said:

do not listen to him. from what i have seen, this guy loves to make claims but fails to back them up. and is usually incorrect about them.

lol. Yes sometimes I fail to back up my claims, but if you research you'll see where I am coming from. Brother I am not Wikipedia having all references and links and sources to drop whenever people ask. A lot of Muslim scholars make claim as well, when you go to Khutba they usually talk without referring to texts, how do you know all scholars are truthful? When you ask a fatwa they give a fatwa give a reference here and there, I bet you can't even tell if that's true or not because you don't have their books to check if they are making up or telling you something stupid. If you want to build your religion upon a bunch of texts based approach perhaps you could go full Salafi, this is where you need to get out of the Taqlid I Aqeedah and Hadith based thinking.

Edited by SunniBrother

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8 hours ago, Faruk said:

The testimony of the Quran itself should be enough for the true believer. There are no inconsistencies in it and one who uses reason will know it's the truth. Very fair and unbiased arguments. There are more arguments but it does not mention sanad or any other human science.

I like the words and it is the conclusion in this thread. I have also mentioned the similar words earlier in my post. 

Edited by skyweb1987

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15 hours ago, just a muslim said:

do you mean to say that there is no difference between your belief in quran and a christians belief in the bible? or the jew's belief in the torah?

The diffirence lies in its Aqidah. The Aqidah of the Quran is based on logic and it tells us to believe it by using and confirm it with our own logic and not to believe because of authority.

It even tells us not to follow our ancestors, traditions, not even follow scholars blindly.

In contrary to other books it puts emphasis on using our own reason. That was actually the most fair argument I ever read in any book considered to be sacred in any religion.
 

Edited by Faruk

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13 hours ago, just a muslim said:

i do not doubt any singe letter of the quran. my BELIEF is that the quran is from Allah. and i have flawless reasons/evidence to believe that the quran we have today is the same as it was at the time of prophet pbuh.

i am asking these questions from a non muslim's perspective. 

if a christian comes to you and says: "since you claim the bible was changed, how do you know the quran wasnt changed? that it is the same as the time of muhammad pbu?" you cant say to him that you "believe" it is from God. because he also believes the bible is from God. then that would mean you are essentially as correct in your belief as he is in his belief. THAT does not make islam true. 

Then  you should use the arguments Allah gave to us through that same Quran,

You can tell them there is a sanad but then still they could ask you but then how you know Muhammad s.a.w.a.s. is a Prophet?

This sanad argument is invented to give ahaadith, sunni ahaadith in this case the same credibility as the Quran itself.

Above all the sanad doesn't make the content of that what is transmitted more truthful or not.

It's the message itself that should be judged.

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12 hours ago, SunniBrother said:

lol. Yes sometimes I fail to back up my claims, but if you research you'll see where I am coming from. Brother I am not Wikipedia having all references and links and sources to drop whenever people ask. A lot of Muslim scholars make claim as well, when you go to Khutba they usually talk without referring to texts, how do you know all scholars are truthful? When you ask a fatwa they give a fatwa give a reference here and there, I bet you can't even tell if that's true or not because you don't have their books to check if they are making up or telling you something stupid. If you want to build your religion upon a bunch of texts based approach perhaps you could go full Salafi, this is where you need to get out of the Taqlid I Aqeedah and Hadith based thinking.

Logic is in reach of everyone.

Edited by Faruk

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2 minutes ago, just a muslim said:

you guys have said so many incorrect things full of asumptions. i'm really busy today. but i will reply to all of them tomorrow inshaAllah.

You're welcome anytime. Right now or tomorrow.

Edited by Faruk

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On 9/22/2017 at 10:21 PM, just a muslim said:

which arabic dictionary defines iman as "a light that God casts into the heart of whomsoever He wills?"

:bismillah:

Surah Al-Anaam, Verse 122:

أَوَمَن كَانَ مَيْتًا فَأَحْيَيْنَاهُ وَجَعَلْنَا لَهُ نُورًا يَمْشِي بِهِ فِي النَّاسِ كَمَن مَّثَلُهُ فِي الظُّلُمَاتِ لَيْسَ بِخَارِجٍ مِّنْهَا كَذَٰلِكَ زُيِّنَ لِلْكَافِرِينَ مَا كَانُوا يَعْمَلُونَ

 

Surah Yunus, Verse 100:

وَمَا كَانَ لِنَفْسٍ أَن تُؤْمِنَ إِلَّا بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ وَيَجْعَلُ الرِّجْسَ عَلَى الَّذِينَ لَا يَعْقِلُونَ

 

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On 9/22/2017 at 11:36 PM, skyweb1987 said:

The link i have quoted earlier mentions only the verses of quran and arguments on the basis of these verses. there is no single narration from any sunni source. 

It also describe about the present bible becoming changed and not from Allah swt. 

If you like to see the Shia ulema views regarding the protection and completeness of quran, the following link may be helpful:

http://www.shiapen.com/comprehensive/tahreef/shia-scholars-completeness-quran.html

Regards

i am not talking about tahreef. i want to know the shia view of the compilation of the quran. how they say it was compiled. not that it is complete. 

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On 9/23/2017 at 0:50 AM, Faruk said:

Does a chain of ten men between you and the Prophet s.a.w.a.s. make the Prophet s.a.w.a.s. more reliable than when you hear him s.a.w.a.s. directly speaking to you?

Are you going to use the sanad argument for Quran to support ahaadith

i.e.

If the reliability of the Quran is based on sanad than that same reliabitly must be applied to ahaadith as well and vice versa?

It just reminded me of a Quranist Vs Salafi/Sunni or whatever on SC/SpeakersCorner.

1. The Quran is the Word of Allah - Ahaadith are the wordings of men

2. The Quran is protected - Ahaadith are not protected.

3. All sects have diffirent ahaadith collections and their ilm rijal differs from sect to sect as political favourism and internal wars played a significant role.

Above all, once the Holy Quran was revealed and when the Quraish heard it live and direct from the Prophet s.a.w.a.s. himself they did not matter about sanad but just could not believe it was the Word of Allah.

The testimony of the Quran itself should be enough for the true believer. There are no inconsistencies in it and one who uses reason will know it's the truth. Very fair and unbiased arguments. There are more arguments but it does not mention sanad or any other human science.

who said anything about ahadith? stop making assumptions that i am trying to justify ahadtih using the quran. i am simply asking about the quran for it's own reasons. not for hadith. the two questions i asked are completely unrelated. 

the quran does not need any human sciences to be true. nobody said that. tell me this. what do you mean when you say Qur'an?

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