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The merits of Talhah

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14 minutes ago, SunniBrother said:

So he sided with Ali (a.s) in Jamal, is he good for shias? Maybe he did good shooting Talhah? No ideas

No, we strongly condemn Marwan ibn Hakam, like @shiaman14 mentioned, Iblees was an obedient and pious worshipper of Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى before the respite and rebellion against Ar-Rahman, should we as Muslims overlook his bad deeds and take Iblees for a role model?I

Just because he fought and supported Ali (as) at Jamal, it doesn't make him pious or a good Muslim. 

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1 hour ago, SunniBrother said:

So Ali (a.s) is above Muhammad (s.a.w.s)?

Brother did you not read the whole Hadith? The Imam (as) said the people who fought the Prophet (saw) were not Muslims to begin with, but the people who fought Ali (as) were Muslims but rejected it, in other words they apostatized for fighting the Imam of their time. In Islam, a person committing apostasy is a far greater sin than a a non-Muslim not accepting Islam. 

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25 minutes ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

Just because he fought and supported Ali (as) at Jamal, it doesn't make him pious or a good Muslim. 

Marwan was strictly against Imam Ali (as) at Jamal. His shooting of Talha was "friendly" fire.

I don't have the hadith in front of me but Marwan was cursed and kicked out of Medina by the Prophet, only to be welcomed by a caliph.

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4 hours ago, shiaman14 said:

Iblees had thousands of years of Allah's worship and one bad action....

 

 

2 hours ago, baqar said:

Satan was also greatly obedient to the Lord.

For hundreds or may be thousands of years.

Until he made one final mistake.

A thousand good deeds may be diluted by one bad one.

 

 

It wasnt just about one bad deed by Iblees but his arrogance and haughtiness. Prophet Adam (as) also disobeyed Allah swt (mentioned in the same Quran) but he felt guilty of his act and repented unlike Ibless (la). And Talha (ra) followed the path of Adam (as) not of Ibless (la).

 

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29 minutes ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

No, we strongly condemn Marwan ibn Hakam, like @shiaman14 mentioned, Iblees was an obedient and pious worshipper of Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى before the respite and rebellion against Ar-Rahman, should we as Muslims overlook his bad deeds and take Iblees for a role model?I

Just because he fought and supported Ali (as) at Jamal, it doesn't make him pious or a good Muslim. 

Any Sahabi who twelvers don't curse or condemn? Because I start to think there is none..

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4 minutes ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

It wasnt just about one bad deed by Iblees but his arrogance and haughtiness. Prophet Adam (as) also disobeyed Allah swt (mentioned in the same Quran) but he felt guilty of his act and repented unlike Ibless (la). And Talha (ra) followed the path of Adam (as) not of Ibless (la).

 

Still waiting for an authentic hadith that in the middle of battle Talha felt repentant and decided to seek the forgiveness of Allah, then Imam Ali (as) and the family of the people he killed.

@SunniBrother - please help @munawar ahmad in this quest.

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5 minutes ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

 

 

It wasnt just about one bad deed by Iblees but his arrogance and haughtiness. Prophet Adam (as) also disobeyed Allah swt (mentioned in the same Quran) but he felt guilty of his act and repented unlike Ibless (la). And Talha (ra) followed the path of Adam (as) not of Ibless (la).

 

Exatly. Also Iblis forsake all humans and all prophets. It wasnt just one sin

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3 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

Still waiting for an authentic hadith that in the middle of battle Talha felt repentant and decided to seek the forgiveness of Allah, then Imam Ali (as) and the family of the people he killed.

@SunniBrother - please help @munawar ahmad in this quest.

Talhah hugged his horse and galloped off the battle-field. He lay down using a stone as a pillow, while the auxiliaries tried to staunch the blood-flow. Whenever they stopped pressing, the bleeding resumed. In the end Talhah said, "Stop it. This is an arrow sent by God." If that is not showing repentance I don't know what is

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1 hour ago, Waseem162 said:

No, but the notion that Those who fought Prophet(s) were in greater Ignorance and hard hearted. Prophet(s) on many occasions said - Oh Allah forgive them they don't know what they're doing.

But those who fought Imam Ali(a.s) were those who knew everything about Islam, They were the closest ones from the beginning and after all the knowledge had came to them they went against the very religion. They tried to dismantle the religious Guidance (Imam Ali(a.s)) for their own grudges because Imam's Judgement was against their desires.

If you're destroying what Prophet(s) gave his entire life for, then that situation is more worse than those who were rejecting Prophet(s) before Islam was completely established.

There is nothing like Imam Ali(a.s) Nauzobillah is greater as what you interpreted.

 

1 hour ago, Waseem162 said:

For God's sake, Why you take everyone so twisted. Have you got any pre conceived notions regarding us ??  Not for Imam ALi (a.s) but For Islam!! Prophet(s) gave his entire life for Islam and Imam ALi(a.s) at battle of Jamal was guarding Islam.

Those who were against him were destroying what Prophet(S) gave his life for.

Also you know those Hadeeths that those who fights with you O Ali is a Hypocrite. None fights you but a Hypocrite.

Those who are in war with you,  I'm in war with them. Your blood is my blood. Your flesh is my flesh. Those who angered you angered me and thus Angered Allah.

 

Honestly speaking, take any classic shia tafsir you will find that almost in every verse there is Imam Ali (as). Showing that main job of Prophet saw was to nominate Imam Ali (as) his successor. From beginning to end. That is why you will hear more about Imam Ali in shia gatherings as compared to Prophet saw. Orally shia may say Prophet saw is far superior to Imam Ali but their actions do not support their saying. Not all but most of shias belong to this category. They know more about Imam Ali (as), about his life, his companions, his sayings etc as compared to Prophet saw. And the things they knew about Prophet's saw life also mainly revolve around Imam Ali (as).

In history there were people who considered Imam Ali (as) a god but no one ever thought the same for our Prophet saw. Such people are still there is thousands. Some very openly say that he is a god others say (including those in my friends circle) that he is not god but he is like god, all-powerful and having control over every single atom of universe.

 

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13 minutes ago, SunniBrother said:

Talhah hugged his horse and galloped off the battle-field. He lay down using a stone as a pillow, while the auxiliaries tried to staunch the blood-flow. Whenever they stopped pressing, the bleeding resumed. In the end Talhah said, "Stop it. This is an arrow sent by God." If that is not showing repentance I don't know what is

After he was already struck with a fatal blow.

Have you seen those harder criminals on death row who find God in the days leading up to their capital punishment.

That is not repentance; it's recognition of their wrongfulness.

7 minutes ago, SunniBrother said:

He gave bayah to Ali (a.s). What you mean "friendly" fire? That makes no sense

He - Talha or Marwan? When and where?

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4 minutes ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

 

 

Honestly speaking, take any classic shia tafsir you will find that almost in every verse there is Imam Ali (as). Showing that main job of Prophet saw was to nominate Imam Ali (as) his successor. From beginning to end. That is why you will hear more about Imam Ali in shia gatherings as compared to Prophet saw. Orally shia may say Prophet saw is far superior to Imam Ali but their actions do not support their saying. Not all but most of shias belong to this category. They know more about Imam Ali (as), about his life, his companions, his sayings etc as compared to Prophet saw. And the things they knew about Prophet's saw life also mainly revolve around Imam Ali (as).

In history there were people who considered Imam Ali (as) a god but no one ever thought the same for our Prophet saw. Such people are still there is thousands. Some very openly say that he is a god others say (including those in my friends circle) that he is not god but he is like god, all-powerful and having control over every single atom of universe.

 

I think this apply more to Twelvers. Especially Ahkbaris. They also talk more about their other Imams then Imam Ali (a.s) or Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.s). Mind you I am against falsehood from any side. I am not bias towards Sunnis or hold prejudice towards Shias, I strongly condemn things from both sides.

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1 minute ago, shiaman14 said:

That is not repentance; it's recognition of their wrongfulness.

"Recognition of wrongfulness" is a form of repentance. I think most twelvers just hate the sahabis for the sake of it. Here you are trying to find a excuse to condemn Talhah (r.a)

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Just now, SunniBrother said:

I think this apply more to Twelvers. Especially Ahkbaris. They also talk more about their other Imams then Imam Ali (a.s) or Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.s). Mind you I am against falsehood from any side. I am not bias towards Sunnis or hold prejudice towards Shias, I strongly condemn things from both sides.

That's why I said:

7 minutes ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

Not all but most of shias belong to this category.

Indo-Pak region has more akhbaris than usoolis. Iran-Iraq also has a great number of akhbaris. You can recognize them via their actions specially in first ten days of moharram.  

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8 minutes ago, Munzir Ahmed said:

 

 

Honestly speaking, take any classic shia tafsir you will find that almost in every verse there is Imam Ali (as). Showing that main job of Prophet saw was to nominate Imam Ali (as) his successor. From beginning to end. That is why you will hear more about Imam Ali in shia gatherings as compared to Prophet saw. Orally shia may say Prophet saw is far superior to Imam Ali but their actions do not support their saying. Not all but most of shias belong to this category. They know more about Imam Ali (as), about his life, his companions, his sayings etc as compared to Prophet saw. And the things they knew about Prophet's saw life also mainly revolve around Imam Ali (as).

In history there were people who considered Imam Ali (as) a god but no one ever thought the same for our Prophet saw. Such people are still there is thousands. Some very openly say that he is a god others say (including those in my friends circle) that he is not god but he is like god, all-powerful and having control over every single atom of universe.

 

The main job of the Prophet was the preach Islam. The end of the divine message was the succession of Imam Ali (as). 

Without the last piece of the divine message, Islam is incomplete. We keep repeating this last piece to complete your Islam for you. 

We talk about Imam Ali because you don't.

We praise Imam Ali because you dont.

We talk about his succession to the Prophet because you don't.

There have been plenty of people before and plenty now who say "forget Ali, let's talk about X" . To that we say no. If you insist on not completing Islam, that is on you.

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2 minutes ago, SunniBrother said:

"Recognition of wrongfulness" is a form of repentance. I think most twelvers just hate the sahabis for the sake of it. Here you are trying to find a excuse to condemn Talhah (r.a)

It is unnecessary exaggeration from @shiaman14 to do not regard the repentance of Talha. If he really did it.

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6 minutes ago, SunniBrother said:

So everyone else is a Kuffar follower of Dajjal plotting to destroy Islam?

No, but most Sahabi are not well-liked, at least we see that they are flawed instead of pretending that everyone got along or sweeping their faults under the rug like some Sunnis do. (aka Salafis)

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1 minute ago, shiaman14 said:

The main job of the Prophet was the preach Islam. The end of the divine message was the succession of Imam Ali (as). 

Without the last piece of the divine message, Islam is incomplete. We keep repeating this last piece to complete your Islam for you. 

We talk about Imam Ali because you don't.

We praise Imam Ali because you dont.

We talk about his succession to the Prophet because you don't.

There have been plenty of people before and plenty now who say "forget Ali, let's talk about X" . To that we say no. If you insist on not completing Islam, that is on you.

Islam = Ali (as) ?

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2 minutes ago, shiaman14 said:

The main job of the Prophet was the preach Islam. The end of the divine message was the succession of Imam Ali (as). 

Without the last piece of the divine message, Islam is incomplete. We keep repeating this last piece to complete your Islam for you. 

We talk about Imam Ali because you don't.

We praise Imam Ali because you dont.

We talk about his succession to the Prophet because you don't.

There have been plenty of people before and plenty now who say "forget Ali, let's talk about X" . To that we say no. If you insist on not completing Islam, that is on you.

What do you mean by " we praise imam Ali because you do not "

Are you San. 

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4 minutes ago, SunniBrother said:

"Recognition of wrongfulness" is a form of repentance. I think most twelvers just hate the sahabis for the sake of it. Here you are trying to find a excuse to condemn Talhah (r.a)

I can say the exact opposite to you brother - most sunnis praise sahaba for the sake of it. You are trying to find an excuse to praise a person whose direct actions led to the slaughter of thousands. Whatever helps you sleep at night.

A lot of people commit crimes or sins and tell themselves they will repent later. Sometimes later doesn't come and they die. That is what happened with Talha.

And again, I neither condemn him nor praise him. I fully recognize his service to Islam and also his disservice to Islam.

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Just now, Gaius I. Caesar said:

No, but most Sahabi are not well-liked, at least we see that they are flawed instead of pretending that everyone got along or sweeping their faults under the rug like some Sunnis do. (aka Salafis)

You are flawed too brother. Who are we to condemn them? We didn't do 1/20 for Islam like they did. Without them, there wasn't going to be Islam. Without Talhah (r.a) Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.s) would have probably had been struck by that arrow on his face (Nauzubillah)

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