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I came to know about some well known figures in India. They were Hindus and are no more.

Swami Vivekanand - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swami_Vivekananda

Ramakrishnan - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramakrishna

 

They were Hindu saints. The one named Swami died while meditating when his brain vein ruptured.

What were they upto? By going through their sayings it looks like yes they were more of a human than the normal deviated beings but since they were not on Islam and were Hindus and were searching for Salvation, After so much of meditation and selfless life, Did they got anything??

People living life like this are deviants surely. Because they're not on Islam. But what is their End Result? Will Allah look to them? Will He reward them? An hadeeth regarding such people?

Edited by Waseem162

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This is huge topic bro. I am amazed as to why don't they look to other religions instead of getting submerged into their unending fantasy religion. 

However, since we aren't aware of what's inside humans.  Imam Ali a.s ssys: "its not necessary that every disbeliever goto hell". 

The above thing is conditional to ignorance but in this age of information, this doesn't seem a plea. But since Allah is the creator so no one knows for sure.

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43 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

 Imam Ali a.s ssys: "its not necessary that every disbeliever goto hell". 

Are you sure about this? please give reference of this haidth. I am sorry to say but this saying contradict with this verse.

98:6 

SAHIH INTERNATIONAL

Indeed, they who disbelieved among the People of the Scripture and the polytheists will be in the fire of Hell, abiding eternally therein. Those are the worst of creatures

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13 hours ago, SIAR14 said:

Are you sure about this? please give reference of this haidth. I am sorry to say but this saying contradict with this verse.

Yes bro, I am sure about this. I do not remember from which book I had read it but shall I provide you a Quranic verse which would agree to that ? Quran says: "Allah does not punish unjustly". Is it right ? So tell me if any human being who has never heard of Islam such as mentally abnormal beings who even in this era of information are unable to understand Islam, will Allah AWJ would punish them if they out of illness walk and talk that is considered bad in Islam ?

 

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2 hours ago, Sindbad05 said:

So tell me if any human being who has never heard of Islam such as mentally abnormal beings who even in this era of information are unable to understand Islam, will Allah AWJ would punish them if they out of illness walk and talk that is considered bad in Islam ?

Of course these are some exceptions. But what about those who receive true message of Allah but yet they disbelieve, while having a normal mental and physical health?

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6 minutes ago, SIAR14 said:

Of course these are some exceptions. But what about those who receive true message of Allah but yet they disbelieve, while having a normal mental and physical health?

Well bro, this is a clear rejection of truth and what is the punishment of rejecting truth ? 

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2 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

Well bro, this is a clear rejection of truth and what is the punishment of rejecting truth ? 

Whatever punishment Allah has mentioned in Quran and what He is going to decide. He knows the best.
So brother, haidth you quoted of Maula Ali (A.S) is might not regarding such disbelievers? 

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3 minutes ago, SIAR14 said:

Whatever punishment Allah has mentioned in Quran and what He is going to decide. He knows the best.
So brother, haidth you quoted of Maula Ali (A.S) is might not regarding such disbelievers? 

Hadith of Imam Ali a.s is conditional to the ignorance of the people. It is also narrated from Prophet PBUHHP that when Imam Mehdi a.s will come, Sufyani will send a huge force against Imam e Zamana a.s and whole of that army will be swallowed by ground and among them there will also be many people who do not know the reality of Sufyani and they will be decided on the day of judgement as per their ignorance. 

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On 9/19/2017 at 4:26 PM, Waseem162 said:

I came to know about some well known figures in India. They were Hindus and are no more.

Swami Vivekanand - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swami_Vivekananda

Ramakrishnan - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramakrishna

 

They were Hindu saints. The one named Swami died while meditating when his brain vein ruptured.

What were they upto? By going through their sayings it looks like yes they were more of a human than the normal deviated beings but since they were not on Islam and were Hindus and were searching for Salvation, After so much of meditation and selfless life, Did they got anything??

People living life like this are deviants surely. Because they're not on Islam. But what is their End Result? Will Allah look to them? Will He reward them? An hadeeth regarding such people?

deviants?

subhanallah.  la ilalha ilallah.

 

 

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On 9/19/2017 at 4:26 PM, Waseem162 said:

I came to know about some well known figures in India. They were Hindus and are no more.

Swami Vivekanand - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swami_Vivekananda

Ramakrishnan - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramakrishna

 

They were Hindu saints. The one named Swami died while meditating when his brain vein ruptured.

What were they upto? By going through their sayings it looks like yes they were more of a human than the normal deviated beings but since they were not on Islam and were Hindus and were searching for Salvation, After so much of meditation and selfless life, Did they got anything??

People living life like this are deviants surely. Because they're not on Islam. But what is their End Result? Will Allah look to them? Will He reward them? An hadeeth regarding such people?

You are facing a conflict between your heart or fitrah/ spirit (on the one hand) and your conditioned soul with all its beliefs that you have been indoctrinated with (on the other hand).

Faith (Iman) is not an indoctrination (it doesn't come from the outside).  iman is not something you are conditioned by from the outside.  Iman is something entirely to do with the heart.  It is, as Sayyidi Mawlana (S) has said, "a light that God casts into the heart of whomsoever He wills", or as Imam Jaffer Sadiq (as) and Sayyidi Mawlana (S) are reported to have  stated, "it is a knowledge in the heart, an a saying of the tongue, and action with the limbs."

my point is that real Iman should not make you feel unhappy or constrained.  This is because Iman is supposed to be your natural state.  When we are not in our natural state we become unhappy and we face conflicts.  

Something in your heart wishes that you could call them people who are not just believers (muminun) in God by also loved by God.  

But something your were indoctrinated with and therefore conditioned by is telling you that their status in God's eyes is not by any means significant.  In fact, they may not even be deserving of God's special mercy.  

So this dilemma may be causing some frustration or agitation.  So, you need to make a choice to either drop the indoctrination and learn to love everyone or see God's love for everyone, or don't drop the mental agitation 

 

Edited by eThErEaL

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8 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

You are facing a conflict between your heart or fitrah/ spirit (on the one hand) and your conditioned soul with all its beliefs that you have been indoctrinated with (on the other hand).

Faith (Iman) is not an indoctrination (it doesn't come from the outside).  iman is not something you are conditioned by from the outside.  Iman is something entirely to do with the heart.  It is, as Sayyidi Mawlana (S) has said, "a light that God casts into the heart of whomsoever He wills", or as Imam Jaffer Sadiq (as) and Sayyidi Mawlana (S) are reported to have  stated, "it is a knowledge in the heart, an a saying of the tongue, and action with the limbs."

my point is that real Iman should not make you feel unhappy or constrained.  This is because Iman is supposed to be your natural state.  When we are not in our natural state we become unhappy and we face conflicts.  

Something in your heart wishes that you could call them people who are not just believers (muminun) in God by also loved by God.  

But something your were indoctrinated with and therefore conditioned by is telling you that their status in God's eyes is not by any means significant.  In fact, they may not even be deserving of God's special mercy.  

So this dilemma may be causing some frustration or agitation.  So, you need to make a choice to either drop the indoctrination and learn to love everyone or see God's love for everyone, or don't drop the mental agitation 

 

So you're trying to say that all the saints are loved by Allah? Be they of any religion other than Islam?

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2 hours ago, Waseem162 said:

So you're trying to say that all the saints are loved by Allah? Be they of any religion other than Islam?

Salam brother,

If we use the word "saint" which, to me, corresponds to the Quranic term "wali", then yes.  God loves his awliya.  This is one of the many translations of the word "wali".  If we look at the English word "saint" alone then we will find that it is laden with Christian connotations.  In other words, a to use the word "saint(s)" would typically imply talking about Christain saints (like St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Peter etc etc).  And Christian saints are ordained by the Church through a specific way or process.

Now I know you don't mean "saint" in that specific narrow / Christian sense of the term... obviously.  So, if you try to transpose this term onto or within the Quranic Worldview (which is what you are trying to do), you need to understand the limits of this word and also see which Quranic term (if any) best fits the word "saint" without all the Christian baggage.  

It might be helpful to explain what exactly you mean by a saint?  If you don't mean someone who has a certain degree of sanctity or divine protection (i'sma), then what could you possibly mean by saint?  

This is what a wali is:

Allah's Apostle ﷺ said, "Allah said, 'I will declare war against him who shows hostility to a Wali of Mine. And the most beloved things with which My slave comes nearer to Me, is what I have enjoined upon him; and My slave keeps on coming closer to Me through performing Nawafil (praying or doing extra deeds besides what is obligatory) till I love him, so I become his sense of hearing with which he hears, and his sense of sight with which he sees, and his hand with which he grips, and his leg with which he walks; and if he asks Me, I will give him, and if he asks My protection (Refuge), I will protect him; (i.e. give him My Refuge) and I do not hesitate to do anything as I hesitate to take the soul of the believer, for he hates death, and I hate to disappoint him.

This is more about semantics as you can see.  But the more clear we get about what it is we actually mean by the words we use, then you will see that the questions we raise will automatically get answered.        

So to me, I immediately think of wali whenever the word saint is used within the context of Islam.  And in doing so, the question for me is automatically answered.   

 

Edited by eThErEaL

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18 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

Salam brother,

If we use the word "saint" which, to me, corresponds to the Quranic term "wali", then yes.  God loves his awliya.  This is one of the many translations of the word "wali".  If we look at the English word "saint" alone then we will find that it is laden with Christian connotations.  In other words, a to use the word "saint(s)" would typically imply talking about Christain saints (like St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Peter etc etc).  And Christian saints are ordained by the Church through a specific way or process.

Now I know you don't mean "saint" in that specific narrow / Christian sense of the term... obviously.  So, if you try to transpose this term onto or within the Quranic Worldview (which is what you are trying to do), you need to understand the limits of this word and also see which Quranic term (if any) best fits the word "saint" without all the Christian baggage.  

It might be helpful to explain what exactly you mean by a saint?  If you don't mean someone who has a certain degree of sanctity or divine protection (i'sma), then what could you possibly mean by saint?  

This is what a wali is:

Allah's Apostle ﷺ said, "Allah said, 'I will declare war against him who shows hostility to a Wali of Mine. And the most beloved things with which My slave comes nearer to Me, is what I have enjoined upon him; and My slave keeps on coming closer to Me through performing Nawafil (praying or doing extra deeds besides what is obligatory) till I love him, so I become his sense of hearing with which he hears, and his sense of sight with which he sees, and his hand with which he grips, and his leg with which he walks; and if he asks Me, I will give him, and if he asks My protection (Refuge), I will protect him; (i.e. give him My Refuge) and I do not hesitate to do anything as I hesitate to take the soul of the believer, for he hates death, and I hate to disappoint him.

This is more about semantics as you can see.  But the more clear we get about what it is we actually mean by the words we use, then you will see that the questions we raise will automatically get answered.        

So to me, I immediately think of wali whenever the word saint is used within the context of Islam.  And in doing so, the question for me is automatically answered.   

 

By saints I mean Monks. The people I mentioned in my main topic believe in some crores of Mythological false gods.

They are Indian Mystics who are revered very much. And I have provided their information in the topic itself.

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2 hours ago, Waseem162 said:

By saints I mean Monks. The people I mentioned in my main topic believe in some crores of Mythological false gods.

They are Indian Mystics who are revered very much. And I have provided their information in the topic itself.

Another semantic issue:

You see, if they believed in false gods then how could their belief in a false god(s) have allowed them to have the constant vision (shuhud) of tawhid with their hearts?  

For example: 

It has been revealed to me that there exists an Ocean of Consciousness without limit. From It come all things of the relative plane, and in It they merge again. These waves arising from the Great Ocean merge again in the Great Ocean. I have clearly perceived all these things. -- Ramakrishna

Each soul is potentially divine. The goal is to manifest this Divinity within by controlling nature, external and internal. Do this either by work, or worship, or mental discipline, or philosophy—by one, or more, or all of these—and be free. This is the whole of religion. Doctrines, or dogmas, or rituals, or books, or temples, or forms, are but secondary details.  -- Vivikenanda

from their teachings and their realization it is clear that these two people seem to have attained the level of insan al-kamil.    

 

But to respond to your concern:

They don't believe in false gods.  What they mean by god or gods is not what the Quran means by the word "ilah".  There are four main dimensions to tawhid.  

1) Tawhid of worship.  There is none worthy of worship but God.  All worship is towards Him, it is impossible to worship anyone but Him.  Some people may think they are worshipping something other than Him, but in reality, they are worshipping only the One. 

2) Tawhid of acts.  There is no act but God's act.  All acts are His and are therefore ultimately One.

3) Tawhid of attributes.  There are no attributes except God's attributes.  All attributes are His and are ultimately One. 

4) Tawhid of the essence.  There is no essence except that it is God.  All essence are nonexistent.  There is only One Essece and it is the Divine Essence.  

Vivikenanda and Ramakrishna are pure embodiments of all these four dimensions of tawhid.  The only difference between them and a Muslim wali is that they followed a different shariah.  While we have the Name "Allah" and the 99 names of God, they have Kali, Krishna, and other so called "gods".   They are not 'gods' but means of approaching God because God in His Essence is beyond relativity.  It is impossible to worship the Essence of God.  So we need names or "gods", and we need to see these "gods" as a favor and blessing because without them we would have no way of expressing love towards the One.  

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Waseem162 said:

By saints I mean Monks. The people I mentioned in my main topic believe in some crores of Mythological false gods.

They are Indian Mystics who are revered very much. And I have provided their information in the topic itself.

Another semantic issue:

You see, if they believed in false gods then how could their belief in a false god(s) have allowed them to have the constant vision (shuhud) of tawhid with their hearts?  

For example: 

It has been revealed to me that there exists an Ocean of Consciousness without limit. From It come all things of the relative plane, and in It they merge again. These waves arising from the Great Ocean merge again in the Great Ocean. I have clearly perceived all these things. -- Ramakrishna

Each soul is potentially divine. The goal is to manifest this Divinity within by controlling nature, external and internal. Do this either by work, or worship, or mental discipline, or philosophy—by one, or more, or all of these—and be free. This is the whole of religion. Doctrines, or dogmas, or rituals, or books, or temples, or forms, are but secondary details.  -- Vivikenanda

from their teachings and their realization it is clear that these two people seem to have attained the level of insan al-kamil.    

 

But to respond to your concern:

They don't believe in false gods.  What they mean by god or gods is not what the Quran means by the word "ilah".  There are four main dimensions to tawhid.  

1) Tawhid of worship.  There is none worthy of worship but God.  All worship is towards Him, it is impossible to worship anyone but Him.  Some people may think they are worshipping something other than Him, but in reality, they are worshipping only the One. 

2) Tawhid of acts.  There is no act but God's act.  All acts are His and are therefore ultimately One.

3) Tawhid of attributes.  There are no attributes except God's attributes.  All attributes are His and are ultimately One. 

4) Tawhid of the essence.  There is no essence except that it is God.  All essence are nonexistent.  There is only One Essece and it is the Divine Essence.  

Vivikenanda and Ramakrishna are pure embodiments of all these four dimensions of tawhid.  The only difference between them and a Muslim wali is that they followed a different shariah.  While we have the Name "Allah" and the 99 names of God, they have Kali, Krishna, and other so called "gods".   They are not 'gods' but means of approaching God because God in His Essence is beyond relativity.  It is impossible to worship the Essence of God.  So we need names or "gods", and we need to see these "gods" as a favor and blessing because without them we would have no way of expressing love towards the One.  

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Waseem162 said:

By saints I mean Monks. The people I mentioned in my main topic believe in some crores of Mythological false gods.

They are Indian Mystics who are revered very much. And I have provided their information in the topic itself.

Another semantic issue:

You see, if they believed in false gods then how could their belief in a false god(s) have allowed them to have the constant vision (shuhud) of tawhid with their hearts?  

For example: 

It has been revealed to me that there exists an Ocean of Consciousness without limit. From It come all things of the relative plane, and in It they merge again. These waves arising from the Great Ocean merge again in the Great Ocean. I have clearly perceived all these things. -- Ramakrishna

Each soul is potentially divine. The goal is to manifest this Divinity within by controlling nature, external and internal. Do this either by work, or worship, or mental discipline, or philosophy—by one, or more, or all of these—and be free. This is the whole of religion. Doctrines, or dogmas, or rituals, or books, or temples, or forms, are but secondary details.  -- Vivikenanda

from their teachings and their realization it is clear that these two people seem to have attained the level of insan al-kamil.    

 

But to respond to your concern:

They don't believe in false gods.  What they mean by god or gods is not what the Quran means by the word "ilah".  There are four main dimensions to tawhid.  

1) Tawhid of worship.  There is none worthy of worship but God.  All worship is towards Him, it is impossible to worship anyone but Him.  Some people may think they are worshipping something other than Him, but in reality, they are worshipping only the One. 

2) Tawhid of acts.  There is no act but God's act.  All acts are His and are therefore ultimately One.

3) Tawhid of attributes.  There are no attributes except God's attributes.  All attributes are His and are ultimately One. 

4) Tawhid of the essence.  There is no essence except that it is God.  All essence are nonexistent.  There is only One Essece and it is the Divine Essence.  

Vivikenanda and Ramakrishna are pure embodiments of all these four dimensions of tawhid.  The only difference between them and a Muslim wali is that they followed a different shariah.  While we have the Name "Allah" and the 99 names of God, they have Kali, Krishna, and other so called "gods".   They are not 'gods' but means of approaching God because God in His Essence is beyond relativity.  It is impossible to worship the Essence of God.  So we need names or "gods", and we need to see these "gods" as a favor and blessing because without them we would have no way of expressing love towards the One.  

 

 

 

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15 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

You are facing a conflict between your heart or fitrah/ spirit (on the one hand) and your conditioned soul with all its beliefs that you have been indoctrinated with (on the other hand).

Faith (Iman) is not an indoctrination (it doesn't come from the outside).  iman is not something you are conditioned by from the outside.  Iman is something entirely to do with the heart.  It is, as Sayyidi Mawlana (S) has said, "a light that God casts into the heart of whomsoever He wills", or as Imam Jaffer Sadiq (as) and Sayyidi Mawlana (S) are reported to have  stated, "it is a knowledge in the heart, an a saying of the tongue, and action with the limbs."

my point is that real Iman should not make you feel unhappy or constrained.  This is because Iman is supposed to be your natural state.  When we are not in our natural state we become unhappy and we face conflicts.  

Something in your heart wishes that you could call them people who are not just believers (muminun) in God by also loved by God.  

But something your were indoctrinated with and therefore conditioned by is telling you that their status in God's eyes is not by any means significant.  In fact, they may not even be deserving of God's special mercy.  

So this dilemma may be causing some frustration or agitation.  So, you need to make a choice to either drop the indoctrination and learn to love everyone or see God's love for everyone, or don't drop the mental agitation 

 

I've yet to see anything reliable to suggest that loving everyone is a part of Islam, rather, hatred for the Ahlulbayt's enemies seems to be a clear theme in the texts. Sounds more like what you hear from Christians.

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20 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

Another semantic issue:

You see, if they believed in false gods then how could their belief in a false god(s) have allowed them to have the constant vision (shuhud) of tawhid with their hearts?  

For example: 

It has been revealed to me that there exists an Ocean of Consciousness without limit. From It come all things of the relative plane, and in It they merge again. These waves arising from the Great Ocean merge again in the Great Ocean. I have clearly perceived all these things. -- Ramakrishna

Each soul is potentially divine. The goal is to manifest this Divinity within by controlling nature, external and internal. Do this either by work, or worship, or mental discipline, or philosophy—by one, or more, or all of these—and be free. This is the whole of religion. Doctrines, or dogmas, or rituals, or books, or temples, or forms, are but secondary details.  -- Vivikenanda

from their teachings and their realization it is clear that these two people seem to have attained the level of insan al-kamil.    

 

But to respond to your concern:

They don't believe in false gods.  What they mean by god or gods is not what the Quran means by the word "ilah".  There are four main dimensions to tawhid.  

1) Tawhid of worship.  There is none worthy of worship but God.  All worship is towards Him, it is impossible to worship anyone but Him.  Some people may think they are worshipping something other than Him, but in reality, they are worshipping only the One. (2)

2) Tawhid of acts.  There is no act but God's act.  All acts are His and are therefore ultimately One.

3) Tawhid of attributes.  There are no attributes except God's attributes.  All attributes are His and are ultimately One. 

4) Tawhid of the essence.  There is no essence except that it is God.  All essence are nonexistent.  There is only One Essece and it is the Divine Essence.  

Vivikenanda and Ramakrishna are pure embodiments of all these four dimensions of tawhid.  The only difference between them and a Muslim wali is that they followed a different shariah.  While we have the Name "Allah" and the 99 names of God, they have Kali, Krishna, and other so called "gods".   They are not 'gods' but means of approaching God because God in His Essence is beyond relativity.  It is impossible to worship the Essence of God.  So we need names or "gods", and we need to see these "gods" as a favor and blessing because without them we would have no way of expressing love towards the One.  

 

I find much of your oft-repeated rhetoric about tawhid problematic, it seems clearly contradictory with the ahadith of the Ahlulbayt (as) and ayaat of the Qur'an. They don't paint the same picture you do, in that supposedly nothing exists but Allah, and that the created and the creator are one, rather they show the opposite. I've seen nothing of four specific dimensions of tawhid, and that any form of worship of anything is, in reality, actually worship of Allah. Rather, again, they show the opposite, that Allah is to be worshipped alone, and that worshipping his creation is shirk and punishable by hell-fire. Ibrahim (as) smashed the idols etc. Many of the men of Quraysh were known for shirk and condemned for it.

Your posts are typically long, complex, and contain so many individual statements, many of which aren't necessarily true or are just plain wrong, and don't logically follow from the previous statements. With all due respect, I can't help but think you're a victim of sophistry, and that you're promoting polytheistic ideology under the guise of tawhid, even though you may believe what you're describing is true tawhid.

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I've yet to see anything reliable to suggest that loving everyone is a part of Islam, rather, hatred for the Ahlulbayt's enemies seems to be a clear theme in the texts. Sounds more like what you hear from Christians.

 

I think what brother @eThErEaL meant is Iradat, an affection and kindness for all the creations of Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى. The enemy of Ahulbayt (as) are literally enemy of God, but we still should turn away from them in magnanimity.

Edited by Dhulfikar

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Just now, IbnMariam said:

I've yet to see anything reliable to suggest that loving everyone is a part of Islam, rather, hatred for the Ahlulbayt's enemies seems to be a clear theme in the texts. Sounds more like what you hear from Christians.

Bismillah Ar-Rahman Ar-Raheem,

I like to use the word love for rahma because rahma does not mean a mercy that is DEVOID of love!  The reason is because the root letters of rahma are shared with the root letters of rahm (womb).  The implication of this is that the rahma of God is all-encompassing just as the womb of the mother lovingly encompasses and surrounds the fetus.    So God is lovingly merciful to each and every single creation by virtue of the fact that they all exist in and through Him.  On the battlefield, Sayyidi Mawlana Muhammad Mustafa (S) and his companions saw a mother frantically looking for her baby.  When she found her baby she embraced it tightly.  Upon seeing this, Sayyidi Mawlana Muhammad Mustafa (S) told his companions that God loves His servants even more than this mother loves her baby.

 

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7 minutes ago, IbnMariam said:

They don't paint the same picture you do, in that supposedly nothing exists but Allah, and that the created and the creator are one, rather they show the opposite.

 

2_115.png

Unto Allah belong the East and the West, and whithersoever ye turn, there is Allah's Face. Lo! Allah is All-Embracing, All-Knowing.

...............................................................................

 

"He is only One, such that there is none with whom He may keep company or whom He may miss in his absence."   ---IMAM ALI (as)

 

Quote

 I've seen nothing of four specific dimensions of tawhid, and that any form of worship of anything is, in reality, actually worship of Allah.

 

Levels of Tawhid:

https://www.al-islam.org/fundamentals-islamic-thought-god-man-and-universe-ayatullah-murtadha-mutahhari/world-view-tawhid#levels-and-degrees-tawhid

that any form of worship of anything is, in reality, actually worship of Allah:

 

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Seest thou not that to Allah bow down in worship all things that are in the heavens and on earth,- the sun, the moon, the stars; the hills, the trees, the animals; and a great number among mankind? But a great number are (also) such as are fit for Punishment: and such as Allah shall disgrace,- None can raise to honour: for Allah carries out all that He wills.

 

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Rather, again, they show the opposite, that Allah is to be worshipped alone, and that worshipping his creation is shirk and punishable by hell-fire. Ibrahim (as) smashed the idols etc. Many of the men of Quraysh were known for shirk and condemned for it.

Of course, God is the worshipped one.  And of course worshipping His creation is shirk punishable by hell-fire.  And of course, Ibrahim smashed the idols.  All of what you are saying is right but you don't grasp the entire picture.  You have a very superficial understanding of all these matters.  But it is alright.  Just keep me in your prayers if you feel I am wrongheaded about all this.

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Your posts are typically long, complex, and contain so many individual statements, many of which aren't necessarily true or are just plain wrong, and don't logically follow from the previous statements. With all due respect, I can't help but think you're a victim of sophistry, and that you're promoting polytheistic ideology under the guise of tawhid, even though you may believe what you're describing is true tawhid.

 

I understand your concern and I am sorry for not being so lucid.  I am trying my best to work on that though (inshallah).

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, eThErEaL said:

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Unto Allah belong the East and the West, and whithersoever ye turn, there is Allah's Face. Lo! Allah is All-Embracing, All-Knowing.

...............................................................................

 

"He is only One, such that there is none with whom He may keep company or whom He may miss in his absence."   ---IMAM ALI (as)

To claim that this verse shows that nothing but Allah exists, and that the creator and the creation are one, is conjecture, much like if I were to claim it shows that Allah has two eyes, a nose, and a mouth because the word wajh/face is used. The tafsir of the Ahlulbayt (as) is what matters, not our own personal opinions/impressions upon reading a verse. As for the hadith, a source would be nice but regardless, it doesn't confirm your understanding, it's not saying the creator and the creation are one, and that we ourselves are Allah اعوذ بالله

Do you not see that to say that there is nothing but Allah makes verses in the Qur'an redundant? Such as ليس كمثله شيء? What thing(s) would this ayah be referring to if nothing but Allah exists?

 

1 hour ago, eThErEaL said:

The point I'm making is that to split tawhid into four specific "levels" seems rather arbitrary without ahadith from the Ahlulbayt (as) to back the claim. Did any of our early ulama even make this distinction?

 

1 hour ago, eThErEaL said:

 

that any form of worship of anything is, in reality, actually worship of Allah:

 

22_18.png

Seest thou not that to Allah bow down in worship all things that are in the heavens and on earth,- the sun, the moon, the stars; the hills, the trees, the animals; and a great number among mankind? But a great number are (also) such as are fit for Punishment: and such as Allah shall disgrace,- None can raise to honour: for Allah carries out all that He wills.

Of course, God is the worshipped one.  And of course worshipping His creation is shirk punishable by hell-fire.  And of course, Ibrahim smashed the idols.  All of what you are saying is right but you don't grasp the entire picture.  You have a very superficial understanding of all these matters.  But it is alright.  Just keep me in your prayers if you feel I am wrongheaded about all this.

 

Again, true understanding of the Qur'an is with the Ahlulbayt, we must refer back to them alone for this. In any case, to say that all things bow down to Allah is not the same as saying worshipping anything other than Allah is worship of Allah. Do you not see that you hold convictions that are contradictory and irreconcilable? You can't believe that worshipping anything is to worship Allah, and at the same time admit that worshipping other than Allah is shirk and punishable. It's either one or the other, to believe both is nonsensical. Ibrahim's (as) smashing of the idols makes it clear that the former is false while the latter is true.

If there are gaps in my understanding then please fill them, thus far you're presenting conclusions but the quotes you bring from the thaqalayn either don't prove them true or aren't fully referenced. Keep me in yours too please.

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, IbnMariam said:

To claim that this verse shows that nothing but Allah exists, and that the creator and the creation are one, is conjecture, much like if I were to claim it shows that Allah has two eyes, a nose, and a mouth because the word wajh/face is used. The tafsir of the Ahlulbayt (as) is what matters, not our own personal opinions/impressions upon reading a verse. As for the hadith, a source would be nice but regardless, it doesn't confirm your understanding, it's not saying the creator and the creation are one, and that we ourselves are Allah اعوذ بالله

Do you not see that to say that there is nothing but Allah makes verses in the Qur'an redundant? Such as ليس كمثله شيء? What thing(s) would this ayah be referring to if nothing but Allah exists?

 

The point I'm making is that to split tawhid into four specific "levels" seems rather arbitrary without ahadith from the Ahlulbayt (as) to back the claim. Did any of our early ulama even make this distinction?

 

Again, true understanding of the Qur'an is with the Ahlulbayt, we must refer back to them alone for this. In any case, to say that all things bow down to Allah is not the same as saying worshipping anything other than Allah is worship of Allah. Do you not see that you hold convictions that are contradictory and irreconcilable? You can't believe that worshipping anything is to worship Allah, and at the same time admit that worshipping other than Allah is shirk and punishable. It's either one or the other, to believe both is nonsensical. Ibrahim's (as) smashing of the idols makes it clear that the former is false while the latter is true.

If there are gaps in my understanding then please fill them, thus far you're presenting conclusions but the quotes you bring from the thaqalayn either don't prove them true or aren't fully referenced. Keep me in yours too please.

 

 

 

Salam dear brother,

You are correct that I have not proven to you anything by showing you those verses of Quran and of Ahlul Bayt (as).  This is because it would be impossible to do so.  I wasn't trying to convince you about my ways,  I was simply giving you my response for the benefit of others and to remind myself of these profound verses and of the wisdom of ahlul bayt (as).  

It is alright to disagree with me and I respect your stance.

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