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Mohamed1993

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17 minutes ago, Mohamed1993 said:

Will an independent Kurdistan be a sovereign state? Or will it be a state that cooperates with imperialist entities in the region to violate the sovereignty of that imperialist power's enemies. The Kurds have been repressed by Baathist regimes in Iraq and Syria, but they have cooperated with Israel on numerous occasions which makes their intentions untrustworthy. You can guarantee that Israel will exploit the Kurds all the more to weaken their enemies in the case of an independent Kurdistan, will the Kurds refuse to cooperate?  Well history makes you wonder, and if they do work together, what does that leave? An unstable neighborhood, a state that allows itself to be exploited to serve imperialist agendas surrounded by enemies that oppose it because of its history of cooperation with an enemy. Who does this benefit? 

That is not question with whom kurds will cooperate. It is their choice .

Why should kurds go close to Israel and not regional Islamic nation. 

Egypt is close to Israel does it you snatch their liberty. 

 

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10 minutes ago, islam25 said:

That is not question with whom kurds will cooperate. It is their choice .

 

So is it then black people's choice in America to cooperate with America's enemies to act against the nation they live in simply because they've been oppressed throughout history? 

16 minutes ago, islam25 said:

Egypt is close to Israel does it you snatch their liberty. 

 

Who says I am a fan of Egypt? It's pretty much a military dictatorship. 

17 minutes ago, islam25 said:

Why should kurds go close to Israel and not regional Islamic nation. 

 

This is a question you need to ask Kurdish representatives. Look, you lose credibility when you cooperate with oppressors whilst claiming to be oppressed, simply because those oppressing you are also opposed to the oppressor oppressing other people. 

 

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On ‎22‎-‎9‎-‎2017 at 10:33 PM, David66 said:

Hello,

How can one justify promoting a Palestinian State while advocating against a Kurdish State?

Hi,

Because the Kurdish state is an extension of the Zionist entity and the preface to a Greater Zion.

 

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7 minutes ago, Mohamed1993 said:

Look, you lose credibility when you cooperate with oppressors whilst claiming to be oppressed, simply because those oppressing you are also opposed to the oppressor oppressing other people. 

That's the problem I have with the Iraqi government as well.

It's all double.

Edited by Faruk

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10 minutes ago, Mohamed1993 said:

Egypt is close to Israel does it you snatch their liberty. 

Sisi is already on his knees sending a message of friendship and acceptance to the Zionist entity just last week. The Gulf-states as well except Qatar which is accused of sponsoring terrorism because of their ties with Hamas and the IRI.

Edited by Faruk

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49 minutes ago, Mohamed1993 said:

I don't, I support a democratic state where Jews will have a vote too. Call it whatever you want.

in that case, who gave any nation state sovereignty? People who've been oppressed through slavery and racism in the US can fight the state to undo all those years of discrimination? Would you be ok with this? I realize how injustices were done when nations were colonized and stuff but how do you maintain order and undo every injustice that was done? You want chaos everywhere, that's fine, I personally believe we have to deal with what we have now, learn to live together as equal citizens.

Allowing yourself to be used by a state that denies rights to millions while wanting your own rights to be a free state is hypocritical. According to wikileaks the Kurds even cooperated with Israel frequently. An oppressed people cooperating with an oppressor leads to a lack of trust for their aspirations. https://wikileaks.org/berats-box/emailid/18426

The above. Cooperating with oppressors while claiming to be oppressed makes me skeptical of how noble the claims of independence are. You may want independence but then if you use that independence to cooperate with an oppressor to weaken the oppressor's enemies then I find that difficult to support. Colonialism ruled through divide and conquer, more division will ensure more instability. 

@Mohamed1993

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I don't, I support a democratic state where Jews will have a vote too. Call it whatever you want.

Well that is still in support of nation-states... Regardless of the political system within the state.

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in that case, who gave any nation state sovereignty? People who've been oppressed through slavery and racism in the US can fight the state to undo all those years of discrimination? Would you be ok with this? I realize how injustices were done when nations were colonized and stuff but how do you maintain order and undo every injustice that was done? You want chaos everywhere, that's fine, I personally believe we have to deal with what we have now, learn to live together as equal citizens.

Now you are strawmaning my position, I'm not advocating chaos. Simply the self-determination of peoples as a whole. Whoever they may be. 

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Allowing yourself to be used by a state that denies rights to millions while wanting your own rights to be a free state is hypocritical. According to wikileaks the Kurds even cooperated with Israel frequently. An oppressed people cooperating with an oppressor leads to a lack of trust for their aspirations. https://wikileaks.org/berats-box/emailid/18426

Really? So Iraq never received American weaponary or American specialist training neither? But you make an exception to that I assume?

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The above. Cooperating with oppressors while claiming to be oppressed makes me skeptical of how noble the claims of independence are. You may want independence but then if you use that independence to cooperate with an oppressor to weaken the oppressor's enemies then I find that difficult to support. Colonialism ruled through divide and conquer, more division will ensure more instability. 

The same standard then applies to Shias who support the Baathist Assad because Baathism is inherently racist in its ideology. The same for Iraqi cooperation with America? Or Iranian cooperation with America on the nuclear deal? 

You see this line of reasoning is fallacious and is a slippery slope argument. "Cooperating with opressors" is simply an appeal to emotion, you assuming having economic ties with a state means you endorse that state. That simply isn't how politics works. 

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48 minutes ago, Mohamed1993 said:

Will an independent Kurdistan be a sovereign state? Or will it be a state that cooperates with imperialist entities in the region to violate the sovereignty of that imperialist power's enemies. The Kurds have been repressed by Baathist regimes in Iraq and Syria, but they have cooperated with Israel on numerous occasions which makes their intentions untrustworthy. You can guarantee that Israel will exploit the Kurds all the more to weaken their enemies in the case of an independent Kurdistan, will the Kurds refuse to cooperate?  Well history makes you wonder, and if they do work together, what does that leave? An unstable neighborhood, a state that allows itself to be exploited to serve imperialist agendas surrounded by enemies that oppose it because of its history of cooperation with an enemy. Who does this benefit? 

@Mohamed1993

You've yet to define "imperialist entities", can you define it please?

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Or will it be a state that cooperates with imperialist entities in the region to violate the sovereignty of that imperialist power's enemies.

That is another fallacy you are employing, in the form of a loaded question. 

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The Kurds have been repressed by Baathist regimes in Iraq and Syria, but they have cooperated with Israel on numerous occasions which makes their intentions untrustworthy.

Can you provide evidence for that claim? 

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You can guarantee that Israel will exploit the Kurds all the more to weaken their enemies in the case of an independent Kurdistan, will the Kurds refuse to cooperate?

A further fallacy in the form of a loaded question. 

 

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An unstable neighborhood, a state that allows itself to be exploited to serve imperialist agendas surrounded by enemies that oppose it because of its history of cooperation with an enemy. Who does this benefit? 

A further loaded question...

 

The amount of sophistry you employ isn't going to get you anywhere here. If you don't have any actual points or arguments but only have sophist talking points, then fine. 

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Just now, Ībn Mūneer Āl-Feylī said:

Really? So Iraq never received American weaponary or American specialist training neither? But you make an exception to that I assume?

No I don't actually, how do you cooperate with a country that arms your enemies in Syria? It doesn't make any sense, but this is how they operate. 

3 minutes ago, Ībn Mūneer Āl-Feylī said:

The same standard then applies to Shias who support the Baathist Assad because Baathism is inherently racist in its ideology.

Assad vs. ISIS/Al Qaeda/Al Nusra/Jaysh al Islam/Ahrar al Sham, there isn't much  of a choice here. But I hope the people of Syria can have free and fair democratic processes in the future, and fair elections too. 

5 minutes ago, Ībn Mūneer Āl-Feylī said:

Or Iranian cooperation with America on the nuclear deal? 

I was happy with the deal at the time it was signed because I thought it was a good way to avoid a war, where innocent lives would be lost for no good reason, but now looking at how this deal was just an excuse for the US to push Iran on other issues, I don't think it was helpful tbh. 

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15 minutes ago, Mohamed1993 said:

So is it then black people's choice in America to cooperate with America's enemies to act against the nation they live in simply because they've been oppressed throughout history? 

Who says I am a fan of Egypt? It's pretty much a military dictatorship. 

This is a question you need to ask Kurdish representatives. Look, you lose credibility when you cooperate with oppressors whilst claiming to be oppressed, simply because those oppressing you are also opposed to the oppressor oppressing other people. 

 

Mr. 

There are 50 Islamic nations. And each nation has its foreign policy with respect to its interests. Even though I do not like their foreign policy. But i cant force them to belive as I please.

Same is with kurds. Let them be independent. Let them choose their own independent foreign policy. 

Just be good so that kurds will like you and not isreal. 

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20 minutes ago, Mohamed1993 said:

So is it then black people's choice in America to cooperate with America's enemies to act against the nation they live in simply because they've been oppressed throughout history? 

Who says I am a fan of Egypt? It's pretty much a military dictatorship. 

This is a question you need to ask Kurdish representatives. Look, you lose credibility when you cooperate with oppressors whilst claiming to be oppressed, simply because those oppressing you are also opposed to the oppressor oppressing other people. 

 

Mr. HOW European union made a common union that their boarders became irrelevant. They have common currency and common secretariat. 

Istead of learning from them why Arab nation despite having one language and religion go on dividing into tiny countries. 

Are we realy so bad? 

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@Mohamed1993

Quote

No I don't actually, how do you cooperate with a country that arms your enemies in Syria? It doesn't make any sense, but this is how they operate. 

Exactly my point, in politics you have to be pragmatic. You seemed to of set an extremely absurd moral standard when it comes to politics. No nation state in the world is free of tyranny or oppression of other peoples. 

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Assad vs. ISIS/Al Qaeda/Al Nusra/Jaysh al Islam/Ahrar al Sham, there isn't much  of a choice here. But I hope the people of Syria can have free and fair democratic processes in the future, and fair elections too. 

Firstly there were peaceful protests in 2011 in Syria and there were many people with geniune greviances with the Assad regime. However two aspects to this that you negate. The first is Assad used violence against the protestors who were peaceful and shot them down. Citation: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/apr/22/syria-protests-forces-shoot http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2079813/Syrian-shootings-Dramatic-footage-shows-protesters-shot--activists-claim-thirteen-killed.html http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/26/world/middleeast/26syria.html?mcubz=0
The second being is that Assad actually creating this paradigm and this one way choice of either accepting him or accepting the extremist opposition. Infact Assad released the leader of Al-Qaeda Al-Jolani and many other extremists in order to create this paradigm. Citations: http://s.telegraph.co.uk/graphics/projects/isis-jihad-syria-assad-islamic/ https://www.thenational.ae/world/assad-regime-abetted-extremists-to-subvert-peaceful-uprising-says-former-intelligence-official-1.319620 http://www.newsweek.com/how-syrias-assad-helped-forge-isis-255631

 

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I was happy with the deal at the time it was signed because I thought it was a good way to avoid a war, where innocent lives would be lost for no good reason, but now looking at how this deal was just an excuse for the US to push Iran on other issues, I don't think it was helpful tbh. 

Trump is a NeoCon or atleast he has surrounded himself with Neocons, so it is only natural he wants more war. 

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18 minutes ago, Ībn Mūneer Āl-Feylī said:

Firstly there were peaceful protests in 2011 in Syria and there were many people with geniune greviances with the Assad regime. However two aspects to this that you negate. The first is Assad used violence against the protestors who were peaceful and shot them down. Citation: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/apr/22/syria-protests-forces-shoot http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2079813/Syrian-shootings-Dramatic-footage-shows-protesters-shot--activists-claim-thirteen-killed.html http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/26/world/middleeast/26syria.html?mcubz=0
The second being is that Assad actually creating this paradigm and this one way choice of either accepting him or accepting the extremist opposition. Infact Assad released the leader of Al-Qaeda Al-Jolani and many other extremists in order to create this paradigm. Citations: http://s.telegraph.co.uk/graphics/projects/isis-jihad-syria-assad-islamic/ https://www.thenational.ae/world/assad-regime-abetted-extremists-to-subvert-peaceful-uprising-says-former-intelligence-official-1.319620 http://www.newsweek.com/how-syrias-assad-helped-forge-isis-255631

Syria has been discussed an innumerable number of times on SC. The protestors were not all peaceful democracy loving people, shouting and chanting Christians to Beirut, Alawis to the Grave is not peaceful, you need to look into other sources. Did Assad's forces overreact? Yes, they did, but its funny how no one can name one moderate opposition group to replace him. They kept saying FSA was moderate, yet these people ethnically cleansed Shias from Homs. Assad did not create an extremist opposition, rather the fact that the US and UK allies started funnelling arms to groups that suited their own agenda. In addition, these articles ignore how wikileaks emails talked extensively about how the US and NATO had planned to destabilize Syria for the longest time, they also ignore how former French minister had talked about the plans to destabilize Syria because of its opposition to Israel. You need to look beyond British media.

27 minutes ago, Ībn Mūneer Āl-Feylī said:

The amount of sophistry you employ isn't going to get you anywhere here. If you don't have any actual points or arguments but only have sophist talking points, then fine. 

Why do you ignore the wikileaks emails I linked. I can link more sources too; http://wp.telesurtv.net/english/news/Why-Does-Israel-Support-an-Independent-Iraqi-Kurdistan--20170923-0023.html

Btw, the name of the topic has been ammended, I realise it was wrong of me to target all Kurds, when I meant the political representatives representing its people. 

Edited by Mohamed1993

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28 minutes ago, islam25 said:

Just be good so that kurds will like you and not isreal. 

I understand the Kurds have every reason to dislike the Baath regimes, but to use this to build ties with equally oppressive regimes takes away your moral compass. 

29 minutes ago, islam25 said:

There are 50 Islamic nations. And each nation has its foreign policy with respect to its interests.

Almost all Western backed dictatorships.

27 minutes ago, islam25 said:

Mr. HOW European union made a common union that their boarders became irrelevant. They have common currency and common secretariat. 

 

I don't think that's the best example at this point man, look at the UK and everyone complaining of the migrant crisis. 

28 minutes ago, islam25 said:

Istead of learning from them why Arab nation despite having one language and religion go on dividing into tiny countries. 

 

I don't know, but things are the way they are today. 

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13 minutes ago, Mohamed1993 said:

Syria has been discussed an innumerable number of times on SC. The protestors were not all peaceful democracy loving people, shouting and chanting Christians to Beirut, Alawis to the Grave is not peaceful, you need to look into other sources. Did Assad's forces overreact? Yes, they did, but its funny how no one can name one moderate opposition group to replace him. They kept saying FSA was moderate, yet these people ethnically cleansed Shias from Homs. Assad did not create an extremist opposition, rather the fact that the US and UK allies started funnelling arms to groups that suited their own agenda. In addition, these articles ignore how wikileaks emails talked extensively about how the US and NATO had planned to destabilize Syria for the longest time, they also ignore how former French minister had talked about the plans to destabilize Syria because of its opposition to Israel. You need to look beyond British media.

Why do you ignore the wikileaks emails I linked. I can link more sources too; http://wp.telesurtv.net/english/news/Why-Does-Israel-Support-an-Independent-Iraqi-Kurdistan--20170923-0023.html

Btw, the name of the topic has been ammended, I realise it was wrong of me to target all Kurds, when I meant the political representatives representing its people. 

@Mohamed1993

 

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Syria has been discussed an innumerable number of times on SC. The protestors were not all peaceful democracy loving people, shouting and chanting Christians to Beirut, Alawis to the Grave is not peaceful, you need to look into other sources.

You are continuing to strawman, I said the initial protests were peaceful and that is when Assad began to fire on the protestors and it then started to become violent.

 

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Did Assad's forces overreact? Yes, they did, but its funny how no one can name one moderate opposition group to replace him. They kept saying FSA was moderate, yet these people ethnically cleansed Shias from Homs. Assad did not create an extremist opposition, rather the fact that the US and UK allies started funnelling arms to groups that suited their own agenda.

This is remarkable, you ignored all the citations I presented and the sources and then asserted your own opinion. I'm sorry but are you denying Al-Jolani was not released from prison by Assad? (Even though I showed you several articles that confirm this) 

Not to mention the fact that the USA arming the opposition later on has no relevance to Assad releasing the extremists from the prisons earlier on. There is no contradiction here anyway. 

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In addition, these articles ignore how wikileaks emails talked extensively about how the US and NATO had planned to destabilize Syria for the longest time, they also ignore how former French minister had talked about the plans to destabilize Syria because of its opposition to Israel. You need to look beyond British media.

What makes the Wikileaks reliable? Can you verify its reliability?

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Why do you ignore the wikileaks emails I linked. I can link more sources too; http://wp.telesurtv.net/english/news/Why-Does-Israel-Support-an-Independent-Iraqi-Kurdistan--20170923-0023.html

I did read the wikileaks, clearly you didn't read your own source. It talked about Israeli commandos training Peshmerga units, hence my point on US special forces training iraqi forces to counter that point. 

About this article: What exactly do you want me to refute about it? Specifically what are you trying to point out from it? 

Edited by Ībn Mūneer Āl-Feylī

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51 minutes ago, Mohamed1993 said:

I understand the Kurds have every reason to dislike the Baath regimes, but to use this to build ties with equally oppressive regimes takes away your moral compass. 

Almost all Western backed dictatorships.

I don't think that's the best example at this point man, look at the UK and everyone complaining of the migrant crisis. 

I don't know, but things are the way they are today. 

You can brush away every reasonable question. 

Kurds demand freedom. They should be given it. It's their choice to do what they like. You have right to suppress ones demand of freedom. 

You are answerable to your actions not the Kurds. 

Why did most Syrian refugee migrated to Europe istead asking neighbouring countries. 

Because may the neighbours are not good enough. 

Why should a person dislike if his neighbour is good. 

Last but not least. As you sow so shall you reap. 

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1 hour ago, islam25 said:

Kurds demand freedom. They should be given it. It's their choice to do what they like. You have right to suppress ones demand of freedom. 

 

Alright, let's see how things pan out in the future, inshallah! 

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