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No Sahabi asked "Who are these Ulil Amri?".

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40 minutes ago, islam25 said:

Who will decide what is Islamic and what is unislamic. We or ulilamar. 

Today erdgon is ulilamar. 

King of Saudi is ulilamar. 

Roohani of Iran is ulilamar. 

Abu Bakr was ulilamar. 

ALI was ulilamar. 

Muawiyah was ulilamar. 

Yazeed was ulilamar. 

And so on.

very true. and this confusing situation will not happen if hadith about companions asking who are these ulil amri is available in sunni hadith collection!!!

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1 hour ago, islam25 said:

Who will decide what is Islamic and what is unislamic. We or ulilamar. 

Today erdgon is ulilamar. 

King of Saudi is ulilamar. 

Roohani of Iran is ulilamar. 

Abu Bakr was ulilamar. 

ALI was ulilamar. 

Muawiyah was ulilamar. 

Yazeed was ulilamar. 

And so on.

the quran answered your question. if we want to decide what is islamic or unislamic, we turn to the Allah and the messenger AS, in the form of quran and hadith. simple.

yes. they are/were all ulil amr. but today, these people arent ulil amr over you or me. the country the rule over, the people there are supposed to follow them in every islamic thing. simple. if you have a problem with there being so many different ulil amr, then demolish this country system and re-establish the khilafah so we only have one ulil amr.

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1 hour ago, hoskot said:

i just woud like to know, why no such hadith recorded in sunni hadith collection. any logical explanation for it?

i dont know. one could be that they did ask and you havent come across it yet. 

but supposing they didnt, i have no explanation for it. i dont need to have one. the sahaba didnt ask about teverything. 

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1 hour ago, hoskot said:

they did asked about

Shakir 2:189] They ask you concerning the new moon.

[Shakir 2:215] They ask you as to what they should spend.

[Shakir 2:222] And they ask you about menstruation.

[Shakir 8:1] They ask you about the windfalls

which, IMO, very much less weightier than ulil amri. don't u think so?

i believe, shias have such narrations, thus ulil amri is a non-issue for them,

i believe, sahabas did asked, but the umayyads and the abbasids forbade their propagations.

anyway thanks for sharing ur thoughts.

 

you can believe unicorns exist too. wont make it true brother.

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1 hour ago, hoskot said:

very true. and this confusing situation will not happen if hadith about companions asking who are these ulil amri is available in sunni hadith collection!!!

well, this confusion wouldn't occur if one follows the quran. ask the people of knowledge if you do not know. 

if the sahaba didnt ask about this matter, the prophet pbuh should have explained it to them as it was his job. quran 16:44

if he didnt, either he didnt fulfill his job, which is not possible, or it was an obvious thing, literally the people who have authority, as my entire explanation says.

Edited by just a muslim
typo

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1 hour ago, just a muslim said:

well, this confusion wouldn't occur if one follows the quran. ask the people of knowledge if you do not know. 

if the sahaba didnt ask about this matter, the prophet pbuh should have explained it to them as it was his job. quran 16:44

if he didnt, either he didnt fulfill his job, which is not possible, or it was an obvious thing, literally the people who have authority, as my entire explanation says.

salam akhi

and may i know, who are these people of knowledge, whom we are supposed to ask? any quranic verse to backup it up?

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3 hours ago, just a muslim said:

the quran answered your question. if we want to decide what is islamic or unislamic, we turn to the Allah and the messenger AS, in the form of quran and hadith. simple.

yes. they are/were all ulil amr. but today, these people arent ulil amr over you or me. the country the rule over, the people there are supposed to follow them in every islamic thing. simple. if you have a problem with there being so many different ulil amr, then demolish this country system and re-establish the khilafah so we only have one ulil amr.

Now some of citizens of Turkey and Saudi and Iran do not accept their rulers and consider them unislamic. So should they follow them. 

In past most accepted yazeed and Muawiya and Ali.

But some disagreed. 

So do they were right or wrong. 

In Quran it is said to follow ulilamar absolutely like one follows Allah and Messenger of Allah. 

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33 minutes ago, islam25 said:

Now some of citizens of Turkey and Saudi and Iran do not accept their rulers and consider them unislamic. So should they follow them. 

In past most accepted yazeed and Muawiya and Ali.

But some disagreed. 

So do they were right or wrong. 

they should follow them in everything that is according to the quran and sunnah. anything against it, they shouldnt follow them.

i dont know about that. Ali RA was a khalifa. ameer ul momineen. muawiya and yazeed were kings. not khulafa. not matter how much a sunni tries to say otherwise. Ali AS was the 4th caliph. and muawiya rose against him unjustly. we have narrations saying that if two people claim khilafa, the first claimant is the true khalifa. and there are serious words about the second claimant. so, whoever followed Ali RA did right. whoever accepted muawiya while Ali RA was there, did wrong. after Ali RA, and Imam Hassan AS, khilafah ended and mulukiat started. 

33 minutes ago, islam25 said:

In Quran it is said to follow ulilamar absolutely like one follows Allah and Messenger of Allah. 

no akhi it doesnt. here is the translation:

O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.

this is a word for word translation. now let me explain. it says, obey Allah and obey the messenger. correct? notice how the explicit command/verb of obeying is only with Allah and Messenger. then it says "and those in authority among you". there is not separate verb for ulil amr. absolute obeying is hence only for Allah and his messenger. and it is as if Allah answers your claim in the very next line: "if you disagree in something, refer it to Allah and Messenger"

let me ask you this. would we disagree obeying Allah and messenger? no. because they command the same thing. the only margin of disagreement is with the ulil amr. if they tell us to do something, and we say something else, we return it to the quran(Allah) and sunnah(messenger), not to the ulil amr.

you may say that ulil amr doesnt have the verb itself because the messenger and those in authority have to be followed in the same way. i say, there's two problems with this. 1. does that mean that we dont have to follow Allah and the messenger in the same way? since both of them have got separate verbs for themselves? 2. when talking about refering back in case of disagreement, the quran says refer back to Allah and messenger, not the ulil amr, because absolute obeying is only for Allah and his messenger. so many places in the quran where it says to obey Allah and the messenger. nowhere does it talk about disagreements. the only place where it talks about obeying the ulil amr, the very next line talks about what to do about disagreements. 

Edited by just a muslim
typo

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1 hour ago, just a muslim said:

they should follow them in everything that is according to the quran and sunnah. anything against it, they shouldnt follow them.

i dont know about that. Ali RA was a khalifa. ameer ul momineen. muawiya and yazeed were kings. not khulafa. not matter how much a sunni tries to say otherwise. Ali AS was the 4th caliph. and muawiya rose against him unjustly. we have narrations saying that if two people claim khilafa, the first claimant is the true khalifa. and there are serious words about the second claimant. so, whoever followed Ali RA did right. whoever accepted muawiya while Ali RA was there, did wrong. after Ali RA, and Imam Hassan AS, khilafah ended and mulukiat started. 

no akhi it doesnt. here is the translation:

O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.

this is a word for word translation. now let me explain. it says, obey Allah and obey the messenger. correct? notice how the explicit command/verb of obeying is only with Allah and Messenger. then it says "and those in authority among you". there is not separate verb for ulil amr. absolute obeying is hence only for Allah and his messenger. and it is as if Allah answers your claim in the very next line: "if you disagree in something, refer it to Allah and Messenger"

let me ask you this. would we disagree obeying Allah and messenger? no. because they command the same thing. the only margin of disagreement is with the ulil amr. if they tell us to do something, and we say something else, we return it to the quran(Allah) and sunnah(messenger), not to the ulil amr.

you may say that ulil amr doesnt have the verb itself because the messenger and those in authority have to be followed in the same way. i say, there's two problems with this. 1. does that mean that we dont have to follow Allah and the messenger in the same way? since both of them have got separate verbs for themselves? 2. when talking about refering back in case of disagreement, the quran says refer back to Allah and messenger, not the ulil amr, because absolute obeying is only for Allah and his messenger. so many places in the quran where it says to obey Allah and the messenger. nowhere does it talk about disagreements. the only place where it talks about obeying the ulil amr, the very next line talks about what to do about disagreements. 

You are partially Right.But sequence shows that you have to follow him absolutely. 

Second question following in what matters. Since religion is already complete. So why not follow Allah and Prophet puh in it at first. 

It you who today says yazeed muawiya etc where not ulilamar. But practicality they had authority and Muslims followed them.

Banu Ummayyad had authority for a century. 

Then Banu abbasi came and controlled the governance of Ummah. And grabbed authority from ummayads. 

So does it mean that Banu Abbassi became ulilamar. 

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1 hour ago, just a muslim said:

they should follow them in everything that is according to the quran and sunnah. anything against it, they shouldnt follow them.

i dont know about that. Ali RA was a khalifa. ameer ul momineen. muawiya and yazeed were kings. not khulafa. not matter how much a sunni tries to say otherwise. Ali AS was the 4th caliph. and muawiya rose against him unjustly. we have narrations saying that if two people claim khilafa, the first claimant is the true khalifa. and there are serious words about the second claimant. so, whoever followed Ali RA did right. whoever accepted muawiya while Ali RA was there, did wrong. after Ali RA, and Imam Hassan AS, khilafah ended and mulukiat started. 

no akhi it doesnt. here is the translation:

O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.

this is a word for word translation. now let me explain. it says, obey Allah and obey the messenger. correct? notice how the explicit command/verb of obeying is only with Allah and Messenger. then it says "and those in authority among you". there is not separate verb for ulil amr. absolute obeying is hence only for Allah and his messenger. and it is as if Allah answers your claim in the very next line: "if you disagree in something, refer it to Allah and Messenger"

let me ask you this. would we disagree obeying Allah and messenger? no. because they command the same thing. the only margin of disagreement is with the ulil amr. if they tell us to do something, and we say something else, we return it to the quran(Allah) and sunnah(messenger), not to the ulil amr.

you may say that ulil amr doesnt have the verb itself because the messenger and those in authority have to be followed in the same way. i say, there's two problems with this. 1. does that mean that we dont have to follow Allah and the messenger in the same way? since both of them have got separate verbs for themselves? 2. when talking about refering back in case of disagreement, the quran says refer back to Allah and messenger, not the ulil amr, because absolute obeying is only for Allah and his messenger. so many places in the quran where it says to obey Allah and the messenger. nowhere does it talk about disagreements. the only place where it talks about obeying the ulil amr, the very next line talks about what to do about disagreements. 

You are partially Right.But sequence shows that you have to follow him absolutely. 

Second question following in what matters. Since religion is already complete. So why not follow Allah and Prophet puh in it at first. 

It you who today says yazeed muawiya etc where not ulilamar. But practicality they had authority and Muslims followed them.

Banu Ummayyad had authority for a century. 

Then Banu abbasi came and controlled the governance of Ummah. And grabbed authority from ummayads. 

So does it mean that Banu Abbassi became ulilamar. 

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6 hours ago, just a muslim said:

i dont know. one could be that they did ask and you havent come across it yet. 

but supposing they didnt, i have no explanation for it. i dont need to have one. the sahaba didnt ask about teverything. 

akhi, let me ask u a hypothetical question: let's say, u were present when the verse 4:59 was revealed. in all honesty, would u asked the Prophet, who are these ulil amri, considering u have already asked about anfal/menstruation and other "worldy things"? 

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1 hour ago, islam25 said:

You are partially Right.But sequence shows that you have to follow him absolutely. 

follow whom absolutely?

1 hour ago, islam25 said:

Second question following in what matters. Since religion is already complete. So why not follow Allah and Prophet puh in it at first. 

It you who today says yazeed muawiya etc where not ulilamar. But practicality they had authority and Muslims followed them.

Banu Ummayyad had authority for a century. 

Then Banu abbasi came and controlled the governance of Ummah. And grabbed authority from ummayads. 

So does it mean that Banu Abbassi became ulilamar. 

 

55 minutes ago, hoskot said:

akhi, let me ask u a hypothetical question: let's say, u were present when the verse 4:59 was revealed. in all honesty, would u asked the Prophet, who are these ulil amri, considering u have already asked about anfal/menstruation and other "worldy things"? 

i apologize. i failed to do proper research before answering you guys. lets get back to the OP. you said why the sahaba didnt ask about who the ulil amr were, right? here are 4 links that tell who the ulil amr were and the context of revelation of 4:59

https://sunnah.com/abudawud/15/148

https://sunnah.com/tirmidhi/23/3

https://sunnah.com/muslim/33/45

https://sunnah.com/urn/179140

these are direct links to ahadith. not some long story book. shouldnt take more than 15 seconds per hadith. so, there you have your explanation akhi :)

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55 minutes ago, just a muslim said:

follow whom absolutely?

 

i apologize. i failed to do proper research before answering you guys. lets get back to the OP. you said why the sahaba didnt ask about who the ulil amr were, right? here are 4 links that tell who the ulil amr were and the context of revelation of 4:59

https://sunnah.com/abudawud/15/148

https://sunnah.com/tirmidhi/23/3

https://sunnah.com/muslim/33/45

https://sunnah.com/urn/179140

these are direct links to ahadith. not some long story book. shouldnt take more than 15 seconds per hadith. so, there you have your explanation akhi :)

So that is  it.

The above ahadith indicate that  ulilamar was appointed by Prophet puh himself. 

Now is it applicable today?

. Since we are not able declear or give authority of ulilamar to any. 

Or who so ever is in authority we have to follow him.

Edited by islam25

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42 minutes ago, islam25 said:

So that is  it.

The above ahadith indicate that  ulilamar was appointed by Prophet puh himself. 

Now is it applicable today?

. Since we are not able declear or give authority of ulilamar to any. 

Or who so ever is in authority we have to follow him.

that is not exclusive to the prophet himself. other ahadith tells us to obey our leader, even if he is an Abyssinian slave. so, we obey whoever is in authority, as long as they do not command us to commit sin.

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12 minutes ago, just a muslim said:

that is not exclusive to the prophet himself. other ahadith tells us to obey our leader, even if he is an Abyssinian slave. so, we obey whoever is in authority, as long as they do not command us to commit sin.

So people following yazeed was true. Because yazeed was having authority. 

Even some Ahadith indicates to follow amir. 

bbas:

The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "Whoever notices something which he dislikes done by his ruler, then he should be patient, for whoever becomes separate from the company of the Muslims even for a span and then dies, he will die as those who died in the Pre-lslamic period of Ignorance (as rebellious sinners). (Fath-ul-Bari page 112, Vol. 16)

 
حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو النُّعْمَانِ، حَدَّثَنَا حَمَّادُ بْنُ زَيْدٍ، عَنِ الْجَعْدِ أَبِي عُثْمَانَ، حَدَّثَنِي أَبُو رَجَاءٍ الْعُطَارِدِيُّ، قَالَ سَمِعْتُ ابْنَ عَبَّاسٍ ـ رضى الله عنهما ـ عَنِ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَ ‏ "‏ مَنْ رَأَى مِنْ أَمِيرِهِ شَيْئًا يَكْرَهُهُ فَلْيَصْبِرْ عَلَيْهِ، فَإِنَّهُ مَنْ فَارَقَ الْجَمَاعَةَ شِبْرًا فَمَاتَ، إِلاَّ مَاتَ مِيتَةً جَاهِلِيَّةً ‏"‏‏.‏
Reference  : Sahih al-Bukhari 7054
In-book reference  : Book 92, Hadith 7
USC-MSA web (English) reference  : Vol. 9, Book 88, Hadith 177
  (deprecated numbering scheme)
Report Error | Share
 
 
 

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17 minutes ago, islam25 said:

So people following yazeed was true. Because yazeed was having authority. 

Even some Ahadith indicates to follow amir. 

bbas:

The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "Whoever notices something which he dislikes done by his ruler, then he should be patient, for whoever becomes separate from the company of the Muslims even for a span and then dies, he will die as those who died in the Pre-lslamic period of Ignorance (as rebellious sinners). (Fath-ul-Bari page 112, Vol. 16)

 
حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو النُّعْمَانِ، حَدَّثَنَا حَمَّادُ بْنُ زَيْدٍ، عَنِ الْجَعْدِ أَبِي عُثْمَانَ، حَدَّثَنِي أَبُو رَجَاءٍ الْعُطَارِدِيُّ، قَالَ سَمِعْتُ ابْنَ عَبَّاسٍ ـ رضى الله عنهما ـ عَنِ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَ ‏ "‏ مَنْ رَأَى مِنْ أَمِيرِهِ شَيْئًا يَكْرَهُهُ فَلْيَصْبِرْ عَلَيْهِ، فَإِنَّهُ مَنْ فَارَقَ الْجَمَاعَةَ شِبْرًا فَمَاتَ، إِلاَّ مَاتَ مِيتَةً جَاهِلِيَّةً ‏"‏‏.‏
Reference  : Sahih al-Bukhari 7054
In-book reference  : Book 92, Hadith 7
USC-MSA web (English) reference  : Vol. 9, Book 88, Hadith 177
  (deprecated numbering scheme)
Report Error | Share
 
 
 

yes. following yazeed, but not in unislamic commands, no matter how bad he was, unless he showed clear kufr. 

the hadith, as i understand it, is to emphasize the importance of unity of ummah.

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52 minutes ago, just a muslim said:

yes. following yazeed, but not in unislamic commands, no matter how bad he was, unless he showed clear kufr. 

the hadith, as i understand it, is to emphasize the importance of unity of ummah.

So yazeed was right. 

As  yazeed asked Hussain allegiance. That Hussain denied .it led to fight and death of Hussain.

 

And it is difficult to judge in political or state management issues to decide what truth. 

As   yazeed told people that Hussain has rebelled a khalif. And the people agreed to fight and kill a rebellion. 

Edited by islam25

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2 hours ago, just a muslim said:

follow whom absolutely?

 

i apologize. i failed to do proper research before answering you guys. lets get back to the OP. you said why the sahaba didnt ask about who the ulil amr were, right? here are 4 links that tell who the ulil amr were and the context of revelation of 4:59

https://sunnah.com/abudawud/15/148

https://sunnah.com/tirmidhi/23/3

https://sunnah.com/muslim/33/45

https://sunnah.com/urn/179140

these are direct links to ahadith. not some long story book. shouldnt take more than 15 seconds per hadith. so, there you have your explanation akhi :)

thanks akhi.

the ahadith posted only strengthen my case: no ahadith present in sunni hadith collection,  relating companions asking the Prophet who are these ulil amri.

So, unless you have a logical explanation for it, between u and me, let's put this to rest.

fastabiqul khairat....Quran 5:48

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41 minutes ago, islam25 said:

So yazeed was right. 

As  yazeed asked Hussain allegiance. That Hussain denied .it led to fight and death of Hussain.

 

And it is difficult to judge in political or state management issues to decide what truth. 

As   yazeed told people that Hussain has rebelled a khalif. And the people agreed to fight and kill a rebellion. 

yazeed wasnt right in any way. he wasnt even a khalifa. i dont know much about history so i cant help you there.

no matter what, yazid was not right. in any way. 

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17 minutes ago, hoskot said:

thanks akhi.

the ahadith posted only strengthen my case: no ahadith present in sunni hadith collection,  relating companions asking the Prophet who are these ulil amri.

So, unless you have a logical explanation for it, between u and me, let's put this to rest.

fastabiqul khairat....Quran 5:48

why do people ask questions? to know the answer. correct? if people already know the answer, would they still ask the question?

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22 minutes ago, just a muslim said:

yazeed wasnt right in any way. he wasnt even a khalifa. i dont know much about history so i cant help you there.

no matter what, yazid was not right. in any way. 

. He was both khalifa and ulilamar at that time 

Yes latter it was declared he was not guided khalifa. 

And  today muslim do not accept him.. But at that time was khalifa and had authority. 

Edited by islam25

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6 minutes ago, islam25 said:

. He was both khalifa and ulilamar at that time 

Yes latter it was declared he was not guided khalifa. 

And  today muslim do not accept him.. But at that time was khalifa and had authority. 

no bro. he was not a khalifa. he was a king. khilafa ended after hasan AS. muawiya and the rest were kings. we have ahadith to prove that.

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