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@SunniBrother says 12 Caliph hadeeth fabricated!

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6 minutes ago, SunniBrother said:

Conjecture. Most hadiths of the twelve have a common figure named Jabir bin Samura and Ibn Umar.

Funny you say that... If appear a tyrant caliph now what you do? Wait the hidden Mahdi?

If it was chosen by Allah He would have named them one by one in the Qur'an instead of relying un such a obscure and dubious hadiths. Poor Ismaeiles didn't knew which was the Imam apparently nobody knew who was the next after the sixth imam. What about Ali Al Ridha asking money from his followers? What was it for?

Have you read about Khums.

Read it - https://www.al-islam.org/khums-islamic-tax-sayyid-muhammad-rizvi/khums-quran-history (And please don't keep ignoring the links I give you, If you won't read you wont understand).

And please please show me the Sahih Hadith in which you found our 8th Imam Asked for money from his followers.

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No one effectively explained the ismaeli split and further spliting. And even if no one gave a 100% convincing reply about the naming of the imams and whatever version of the 12 quraish rule hadith someone likes. But I will like to give a further challenge here - Show me one narration that any of the 11 imams claim for themselves being infallible. Something like "I am infallible!" Or something along those lines. And I guarantee no one will be able to find any of the imams claiming such.

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Zaidis

The Zaidis do not believe in the 5th Imam, Imam Muhammad al-Baqir, because he did not revolt against the corrupt government. They follow Zayd ibn Ali Zainul Abideen as their Imam because he staged a revolution against the corrupt rulers of Bani Umayyah. They do not believe in a direct lineage – instead, any descendant of Imam Hasan and Imam Husayn (as) who stages a revolution against a corrupt government is considered as an Imam. The Zaidis do not believe that the Imams are divinely appointed. They also do not believe in the infallibility of the Imams, nor do they believe that the Imams receive divine guidance. The Zaidis are mainly found in Yemen.

Alawis

Alawis loved the Ahlul Bayt8 (as) to the extent that after seeing the impeccable qualities of the Ahlul Bayt (as) they started exaggerating the status of the Imams. Alawites are also called Nusayris, Nusairis, Namiriya or Ansariyya. They are also known as the exaggerators. Within Alawites they have various sects. There are over one million Alawis that live in Syria and Lebanon. The Ithna Ashari Imams have condemned the exaggerators.

The Ismailis

The Ismailis are a branch of Islam that is the second largest part of the Shia community after the Twelvers. They get their name from their acceptance of Ismail Ibn Jafar (as) as the divinely appointed spiritual successor to Imam Jafar al-Sadiq (as).

The Ismailis dispute the succession of the seventh Imam - they say that Ismail ibn Jafar actually succeeded Imam Jafar al-Sadiq (as), whereas the Ithna Ashari Shias believe that Musa al-Kadhim (as) succeeded Imam Jafar al-Sadiq (as). Ismail died before his father. However, some of the Ismailis claim that Ismail had not died, but rather, had gone into Ghaibat (occultation). Some of the Ismailis accepted his death and therefore claim that his eldest son, Muhammad Ibn Ismail, was now Imam.

There are several offshoots of Ismailis; the most popular ones among them are the Aga Khanis, the Dawoodi Bohras, and the Druze.

The Druze

After the Fatimid Empire was established in 909 AD by Ubaydallah al- Mahdi Billah, he claimed the Ismaili Imamate. The sixth caliph of the Fatimid Empire, al-Hakim bi-Amrillah, ascended the throne when he was only eleven years old and was feared for his eccentricity and insanity. The Fatimid Empire was known for its religious tolerance, but under the reign of al-Hakim, a lot of persecution was seen. In 1021 AD (441 AH), al-Hakim had gone on his mule but never returned and only his mule returned and it was soaked in blood. This led to the birth of the sect of the Druze, who did not accept the successor of al-Hakim and believed that al-Hakim was an incarnation of God and was the Mahdi, who would one day return and bring justice to the world.

The Nizaris

The second but major split among the Ismailis occurred following the death of the Fatimid Caliph, al-Mustansir Billah in 487 AH (1094 AD). After he passed away, the older son Nizar and the younger son fought for the empire. Nizar was defeated and was jailed. His son, however, escaped. A group of people started believing him to be the Imam, and the Imamate of the Nizaris continues to their present, Imam Aga Khan IV. The term Ismailis is referred to the Nizari community, who are followers of the Aga Khan and they are the largest group among the Ismailis.

The Agha Khanis or the Nizaris consider Imam Ali (as) as the first Imam and Imam Husayn (as) as the second Imam and do not consider Imam Hasan (as) as an Imam.9

The Mustalis

Al-Mustali was the younger son of al-Mustansir Billah, whom he succeeded in defeating Nizar. The followers of the Mustali line are also known as Taiyyebi, named after their 21st Imam, Imam al-Taiyyeb who they believe has gone into hiding. The Taiyyebi’s further split into different sects, such as Dawoodi Bohras, Sulaymani Bohras, Alavi Bohras and Hebtiah Bohras etc...

The Bohras consider Imam Ali (as) as the Wasi of the Prophet (sawa); hence Imam Hasan (as) is the first Imam for the Bohras

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37 minutes ago, SunniBrother said:

Conjecture. Most hadiths of the twelve have a common figure named Jabir bin Samura and Ibn Umar.

I am just talking about the hadith you have quoited brother. As there is no complete chain of narrators it is fake. Also there is no grading available for such hadith by sunni scholars. thus it is considered fake and rejected.

So it is well proven fact that there is no alternate set of 12 caliphs / imams except the prophet named those 12 caliphs from the progeny of prophet saww ie ahl albayat who are kept pure by Allah swty.

wasalam

 

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45 minutes ago, SunniBrother said:

Funny you say that... If appear a tyrant caliph now what you do? Wait the hidden Mahdi?

I have the verses of quran to explain the complete background and scenario and those are sufcient ofr us/ The one for imams leading to hell fire have been mentioned earlier and you have no answer in the light ight of verses of quran.

Our 12 imams are not separated from the quran, if the quran is present then as per hadith thaqlayn of the prophet saww our imams of time is also. present.

I also like you to quote a verse of quran mentioning that the people can choose the prophets / caliphs/ imams / leaders after the prophet saww for their guidance instead of Allah swt, to justify the hadith of made made fallible system of caliphate. (not yet answered)

regards

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@SunniBrother 

 Jabir al-Siwa`i; the Reporter of the Narration

As Sunni major reference books of Hadith have related the narration of the Twelve Imams to `Abdullah ibn Mas`ud, Abu-Juhayfah and Jabir ibn Samarah al-Siwa`i, they have depended mainly upon Jabir ibn Samarah ibn Janadah. It has been said that he was son of `Amr ibn Jundab ibn Hujayr ibn Riab ibn Habib ibn Saw`ah ibn `Amir ibn Sa`sa`ah al-Siwa`i. Others have said that he belonged to the tribe of `Amir ibn Sa`sa`ah.10 Jabir and his father were confederates of the tribe of Zuhrah.11 This strengthens the doubt that Jabir did not belong to Quraysh. If he had belonged to the tribe of `Amir ibn Sa`sa`ah, he would not have confederated the tribe of Zuhrah. I myself read al-Dhahbi’s saying that Jabir died during the reign of `Abd al-Malik (ibn Marwan the fifth Umayyad caliph) and that ibn Sa`d alleged that Samarah, the father, had become Muslim only on the Day of the Conquest of Makkah and none else has mentioned anything about his death.12 This takes us to the fact that Samarah was one of the Tulaqa` ‘Released Ones’13 and that al-Dhahbi suspects whether Samarah embraced Islam or not.

Therefore, he says, “Ibn Sa`d alleges that…” Al-Bukhari, in al-Tarikh al-Kabir 4/177, has claimed Samarah’s being one of the Sahabah. Jabir is the child of a ‘released one.’ He was an infant during the conquest of Makkah. He died in AH 76. He narrated that after the Day of Conquest of Makkah, the Holy Prophet (S) passed his hand over the faces of the small boys who were performing prayer in al-Madinah. He was one of those small boys.14 Jabir might have lived in the custody of Sa`d ibn Abu-Waqqas; his maternal uncle, in al-Madinah. It has been related that he had participated in the conquest of al-Mada`in before he moved in Kufah where he built a house for himself.

All the above proves that Jabir was a teenage during the Farewell Hajj. Hence, the only reliable narrator of this narration is a teenage son of a ‘released one’ who was a confederate of Quraysh. How strange the chiefs of this nation and the chiefs of the Sahabah were! They had not possessed even the intellectuality of that teenage ‘released’ boy who cared for the future of his nation and the coming godly Imams! In more accurate words, how firm the Quray[Edited Out]e ruling authorities who had full control on Hadiths were! They disallowed Sunnis to record and publicize the narrations appertained to the coming Twelve Imams whom the Holy Prophet (S) had foretold, except the narration of this teenage!

 

  • 10. Sahih Muslim, Arabic version, Kitab al-Imaara, 1980 Edition Pub. In Saudi Arabia, vol. 3, p. 1452, Tradition #5. Sahih Muslim, English version, Chapter DCCLIV (titled: The People are subservient to the Quraish and the Caliphate is the Right of the Quraish), vol. 3, p. 1009, Tradition #4477
  • 11. Surah Shura (42), Ayah 23
  • 12. Al-Suyuti, Tarikh al-Khulafa, p. 12
  • 13. Ibn al-Jawzi, Kashf al-Mushkil, as quoted in Ibn Hajar al-’Asqalani, Fath al-Bari 16:340 from Sibt Ibn al-Jawzi
  • 14. Ibn Kathir, Ta’rikh, 6:249; Al-Suyuti, Tarikh al-Khulafa, p. 11

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The Imams are from Quraysh, but from the Ahl al-Bayt

Supposing the problematic points of the narration involved are disregarded and the Holy Prophet (S)’s nominating those twelve godly Quray[Edited Out]e custodians is acceptable, a question will be aroused: Which tribe of Quraysh is intended? The clans of Quraysh are more than twenty.

According to authentic narrations recorded in the major reference books of Hadith, Almighty Allah has preferred people of Quraysh to the Arabs and has preferred the Hashimites to Quraysh. Is it then acceptable that He chooses those Twelve Imams succeeding the Holy Prophet (S) from a clan other than the Hashimites?


The following narration is recorded by Muslim: al-Sahih 7/58:
Wathilah ibn al-Asqa` narrated: I heard the Holy Prophetsaying, “Allah has chosen the tribe of Kinanah amongst sons of Ishmael and chosen the tribe of Quraysh amongst the Kinanah and chosen the Hashimites amongst the Quraysh and chosen me among the Hashimites.

As he relates the same narration, al-Tirmidhi, in al-Sunan 5/245, decides it as one-way qualified narration. On page 243, he decides it as authentically qualified. Following this, he records a number of narrations of the same supposition:
Al-`Abbas ibn `Abd al-Muttalib narrated: I told the Holy Prophet (S) that people of Quraysh discussed their lineages and when they mentioned him, they likened him to a date palm tree planting in a junkyard. The Holy Prophet (S) commented, “When Almighty Allah created things, He made me with the best party. Then, He made me in the best tribe. Then, He made me in the best house. Hence, I am the best party, tribe and house. (This is a qualified narration.)

Following this, al-Tirmidhi writes a similar narration with another series of narrators deciding it as one-way authentic narration:
Ibn `Abbas narrated: The descendants of `Imran, mentioned in Allah’s saying, “Surely Allah chose Adam and Noah and the descendants of Abraham and the descendants of `Imran above the nations,” are the believers among sons of Abraham, `Imran, Yasin and Muhammad. (Al-Bukhari, al-Sahih 4/138)

Qur’anic texts and Hadiths respecting selecting, preferring, favoring and preceding the Hashimites to the Ummah are too many to be covered in this discussion. This preference is by the reason that the Ahl al-Bayt being part of him, as well as being the diamond of the Hashimites and their best. Generally, they are the diamond of sons of Adam.

Taking al-Bukhari’s testimony, a scholar can conclude, by processing a simple equation, those twelve men being the progeny of Prophet (S) Muhammad. In the earliest narration, it is proved that the Twelve Imams are chosen amongst people of Quraysh. In the latter, it is proved that Muhammad’s progeny, like Abraham’s, are chosen. Hence, the twelve expected Imams should be Muhammad’s progeny whom are selected by the Lord.

At a least criterion, those twelve men should be from Muhammad’s progeny. This is also advocated by al-Bukhari’s narration that tells `Ali’s being the first complainant on the Resurrection Day. This means that Imam `Ali will bear an important issue preferred to all other issues of this nation. This issue, however, can be understood from Imam `Ali’s following saying recorded in Nahj al-Balaghah 1/82:
“By Allah I swear, people of Quraysh bear malice against us for one and only reason—the Lord prefers us to them. Then, we permitted them to gain entry into our group. Hence, they are applicable to the poet’s saying:
It is we who endowed you this elevation and you were not
Elevated and we encompassed you with swords and spears.”7
Qays ibn `Abadah narrated: `Ali ibn Abi-Talib, may Allah please him, said, “I will be the first to kneel before the Beneficent Lord for litigation on the Resurrection Day.”

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Marks of Authenticity Given to the Three Narrations

Three forms and three narrators of the report of the Twelve Imams are found in Sunni reference books of Hadith. They have agreed upon authenticating Jabir ibn Samarah’s narration; some of them have decided the authenticity of Abu-Juhayfah’s narration while the majority decided it as a qualified with a rather doubtful narrator.

Regarding Ibn Mas`ud, they give opposite marks to his narration since, as they claim, Mujalid ibn Sa`id, whom is decided as trustful by al-Nassa`i and a few specialist scholars while others had judged him as doubtful, is within the series of narrators. Samarah; Jabir’s father, and `Umar ibn al-Khattab should be added to the three previous narrators. The majority of narrations affirm that those two men informed Jabir about the missed word. Moreover, `Umar ibn al-Khattab should be regarded as a main narrator according to the foresaid narration recorded in Kifayat al-Athar.
The following is a number of scholars’ opinions about Ibn Mas`ud’s narration:
Majma` al-Zawa`id 5/190:
The Twelve Successors: Masruq narrated that Ibn Mas`ud was teaching us Holy Qur’an when a man asked whether they had asked the Holy Prophet (S) about the number of the successors who would be ruling this Ummah. ‘I have never been asked such a question since I was in Iraq,’ asserted Ibn Mas`ud, ‘It is yes. We have asked the Holy Prophet (S) this question and he answered that they would be twelve, like the number of the Israelites’ chieftains.’
[Comment on the narration] This narration is reported by Ahmad, Abu-Ya`li and al-Bazzar. One of its narrators is Mujalid ibn Sa`id. Except al-Nassa`i, majority of Hadithists decides him as unreliable. The other narrators are trustworthy.

The same is recorded in al-Hakim’s al-Mustadrak 4/501 who adds, ‘I am too short to give my opinion about the narrations of Mujalid and his likes.’
Ibn Hajar, in al-Sawa`iq al-Muhriqah 20, decides the eligibility of the narration. He records, ‘Ibn Mas`ud relates, in a qualified documentation… etc
Al-Suyuti, in Tarikh al-Khulafa` 13, decides the eligibility of the narration, too. He records, ‘Ahmad and al-Bazzar records the qualified narration of ibn Mas`ud… etc
Al-Busiri, as quoted from Kanz al-`Ummal 6/89, decides the narrations as eligible. He says: Musaddad, Ibn Rahawayh, Ibn Abu-Shaybah, Abu-Ya`li and Ahmad relate this qualified narration… etc.15

If the reason of distrusting Ibn Mas`ud’s narration is the existence of Mujalid within the series of the narrators, the same narration has been related, in a number of Shiite reference books of Hadith, to a series of other narrators.16Nevertheless, this matter makes no change for the judgment issued by Sunni scholars. The narration is given the degree of ‘Hasan—qualified with a rather doubtful narrator’ whatever is proved! Further, this degree seems to be obscure for Sunni scholars since the original problem of Ibn Mas`ud’s narration is to avoid adding ‘All will be from Quraysh.’ The erasure of this statement makes the readers understand that those coming godly Imams would obligatorily be rulers succeeding the Holy Prophet (S). This fact draws a big red circle on the procedures of al-Saqifah from which the Hashimites were absent and busy in preparing the funeral of the Holy Prophet (S)!

 

  • 15. Also, Ahmad: al-Musnad 1/398 and 406 and al-Muttaqi al-Hindi: Kanz al-`Ummal 6/89 and 12/32 as quoted from Ibn Sa`d: al-Tabaqat and Ibn `Asakir: Tarikh.
  • 16. Shaykh al-Saduq: al-Ikhtisas 233, al-Khazzaz: Kifayat al-Athar 73 and al-Nu'mani: al-Ghaybah 106.

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Contradiction of the Contents of The Three Narrations

Sunni reference books of Hadith record Jabir ibn Samarah’s narration in two different forms one of which is accordant to Abu-Juhayfah’s. Ibn Mas`ud had his own form. On that account, the narration has been in three different forms.

The first foreordains that those promised men will be coming after the Holy Prophet (S) and all will belong to Quraysh.

This text occurs in the majority of Jabir’s narrations. Sunni scholars have decided the authenticity of this form. Al-Albani, likewise, has decided the authenticity of this form and recorded it under No. 1075 of his series of the authentic Hadiths.
The second form foretells that those twelve men will be ruling after the Holy Prophet (S) and all will be from Quraysh. It also tells that Islam will be kept in power and protection as long as those men rule. After that, it will be weak and humble and, finally, collapse. This form is mentioned by a number of Jabir’s narrations and all of Abu-Juhayfah’s. Most of Sunni scholars have decided its authenticity. Al-Albani has affixed the form narrated by Jabir ibn Samarah under number 376 of his series of authentic Hadiths. Abu-Juhayfah’s narration has been decided as qualified. Ibn Mas`ud’s narration has been cited as witness on the authenticity of the previous. Finally, al-Albani has refuted Abu-Dawud’s additional wording in which he, as well as other scholars, affirms that all people of this nation will be loyal to those coming Imams, and regards it as deniable.

The third form establishes that those Imams will come after the Holy Prophet (S) in a way similar to the situation of the disciples of Prophets Moses and Jesus. This form is however empty of ‘All will be from Quraysh.’ Most of Ibn Mas`ud’s narrations depend upon this form. Divergence and contrast are the most remarkable notes to be recorded on the various forms of the narrations involved. This is not an easy or acceptable matter, especially in such a sort of narrations.

In addition, this contrast is hardly answerable since it exists in the different forms of the reports of the same narrator. Distortion in such reports, even said by an ordinary chief of a group, is decisively considered; therefore, we should never accept such reports that assert the Holy Prophet (S)’s foretelling the coming of unknown men, especially if we take in consideration the stage and place of addressing that prediction.

The main accusation is the distortion of the identity of those Twelve Imams. The accused is none other than those who may gain advantage from hiding the names and descriptions of the promised ones. It is the ruling authorities who came to power just after the Holy Prophet (S) and banished his progeny from the field of competition by holding a secret meeting while the Holy Prophet (S)’s family were engaged in his funeral.

 

A fair searcher may approach the fact by conceiving that divergence and contrast in the forms of these narrations are focused on a definite point, which is the descriptions, identity, divine standing, lineage, age and period of those promised Imams.

This matter incites doubtfulness of all the forms of the narrations depended by Sunni reference books of Hadith.

On the other hand, it involves the authentication of the concordant unanimous forms of the narration accredited by Shiite reference books of Hadith. All these forms have asserted the same matter; those Twelve Imams will be his progeny, and more definitely, they are `Ali, al-Hasan, al-Husayn and nine men from al-Husayn’s offspring.

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The Twelve Imams are not Nominated According to Means of Election and Homage

This fact is indisputable; since the Lord has chosen them for leadership, people’s obligation should be only to comply with them. Allah says, “And it behooves not a believing man and a believing woman that they should have any choice in their matter when Allah and His Messenger have decided a matter.”

Those Imams acquire their legality from the Lord—the All-wise and the All-aware of His servants’ good. Positively, the Lord’s choice is more prosperous and obligatory than His servants’ are. Like the selection of Prophets that has not necessitated election or homage, the Twelve Imams are selected by the Lord and, accordingly, to obey them is a divine duty. Similarly, even if people ignore, injure or kill a Prophet (S), this should never harm his being divinely chosen and obligatorily conformed. People’s general compliance with a Prophet (S) is no more than an acknowledgment of the obligatory obedience to him, which is divinely commissioned, and is a declaration of corresponding to the Lord’s instructions.

On that account, people’s homage to the Prophets and their successors is a process of submission and obligation to those persons’ right of adherence. People should confirm that right only. They never constitute it. This is the main reason beyond the Holy Prophet (S)’s ordering Muslims to pay homage to him in the most important curve in his nation’s history so that he would confirm their obligatory obedience to him in good and bad, war and peace, and favorable and detrimental circumstances.

For the same reason, the Holy Prophet (S), having conveyed the divine commandment of `Ali’s coming leadership in Ghadir Khumm, ordered to establish a tent under which `Ali would receive all Muslims who should offer him congratulations on this divine leadership, before they pay homage to him. The divine choice has fallen and it does not require a public consultancy or homage. It only requires admission and congratulations.

However, such homage would be obligatory upon people if the Holy Prophet (S) or `Ali asked them to do. For this cause, it is pointless to say that the Holy Prophet (S) asked Muslims only to offer congratulations, not homage, since the issue of the divine commandment of nominating `Ali for the next leadership evacuated the public homage from its effective power and, in the same time, restricted its value to admitting and committing to that divine commandment whenever the Holy Prophet (S) or his successor asked for it.

The general rule in this regard is that people may have the option to choose their leaders and rulers -according to the boundaries of the Islamic legislation- only in case there is no previous divine commandment appertained to this point. In case the Lord has elected a leader, then the whole matter is settled and none has the authority to change or alter. In other words, the choice of the public is meaningless unless they intend to philosophize before their Glorified Lord or oppose His instructions.

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The Narration’s Dedication to Quraysh has been Thrown Away by `Umar

There is an important notice in this regard; `Umar ibn al-Khattab was the bearer of the slogan that the Holy Prophet (S)’s succession should be dedicated to Quraysh exclusively. In Saqifah, `Umar disputed Ansar that people of Quraysh, the Holy Prophet (S)’s tribe, were the worthiest of holding his position and authority. He aimed at intercepting Ansar, in whose land and hospitality Muslim Quray[Edited Out]es lived, from claiming their being the worthiest of holding the Holy Prophet (S)’s position and power since they were his supporters. By such a tribal disputation, `Umar took the round of Saqifah, due to Ansar’s discord despite the heavy protestation of Sa`d ibn `Abadah, their chief.

It was `Umar himself who abandoned and threw away the very principle through which he could obtain the leadership of Muslims. In his final hours, `Umar asserted that he would have delivered the leadership to Salim; the Persian slave of Abu-Hudhayfah, had this man been alive!
The following is quoted from Tarikh al-Madinah 3/140:
`Abdullah ibn Buraydah reported that people advised `Umar, while he was in his final hours, to nominate his successor. He said, ‘Had one of those two men been alive, I would have certainly delivered him this position with quite tranquility and satisfaction—Abu-`Ubaydah ibn al-Jarrah or Salim the slave of Abu-Hudhayfah!
17

`Umar thus opened the door to Abu-Hanifah and others to cancel the term that a leader of the Islamic State should belong to the tribe of Quraysh.

Saljukians and Mamluks used such verdicts to come to power.

For the very reason, the Ottomans adopted and publicized Abu-Hanifah’s school of jurisprudence and, as a result, named themselves as ‘caliphs’ -successors of the Holy Prophet (S)

 

  • 17. Also, Majma` al-Zawa`id 4/220.

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2 hours ago, SunniBrother said:

If it was chosen by Allah He would have named them one by one in the Qur'an instead of relying un such a obscure and dubious hadiths. Poor Ismaeiles didn't knew which was the Imam apparently nobody knew who was the next after the sixth imam. What about Ali Al Ridha asking money from his followers? What was it for?

1. Allah swt has provided the examples in his great sayings in the form of Quran. Thy has mentioned verses for his chosen representatives including the prophets/ caliphs/ imams or leaders who were selected by Allah swt. and not by the people. The following verse describes this fact:

وَلَقَدْ صَرَّفْنَا لِلنَّاسِ فِي هَـٰذَا الْقُرْآنِ مِن كُلِّ مَثَلٍ فَأَبَىٰ أَكْثَرُ النَّاسِ إِلَّا كُفُورًا ﴿٨٩﴾

And certainly We have explained for men in this Quran every kind of similitude, but most men do not consent to aught but denying. (17:89)

2. The prophet saww has named those 12 imams for his progeny  in his traditions but the people  rejected them from their rights in the name of consultation, shura, or circumstances decision etc.

wasalam

Edited by skyweb1987

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1 hour ago, SunniBrother said:

No one effectively explained the ismaeli split and further spliting. And even if no one gave a 100% convincing reply about the naming of the imams and whatever version of the 12 quraish rule hadith someone likes. 

For me the saying of the prophet saww is sufficient evidence to believe any kind of divide among the Muslims in the names of sect or on other basis.

Soon There will be 73 sects among the Muslims.......

Do you consider the prophet saww has not quoted the truth?

The same happened in the history of Muslims, in the name of saqeefa,  or in the name of sunni, shia. ahl sunna wal jamma, and then sub divisions inside them. this is all part of history in the light of the sayings og the prophet saww.c even the quran and the sayings of the prophet saw are there to guide all Muslims. 

regards

Edited by skyweb1987

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1 hour ago, SunniBrother said:

Aleikum Salam

No it did not because hiding Islamic knowledge is prohibited in the sharia. One should share knowledge. Poor ismaelis no one told them which was the sucessor after the sixth imam.

Then why did prophet Yaqub(as) ask Yusuf(as) to hide his prophet hood.

Ya`qub said to Yusuf: “O my son - do not relate your dream to your brothers for they will devise a plot against you” (12:5)

 

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1 hour ago, SunniBrother said:

 But I will like to give a further challenge here - 

Before i go for any response to your challenge i need a single verse of quran mentioning that the people can choose a fallible man as their prophet / caliph/ imam/ leader after the prophet saww for their guidance instead of nomination by Allah swt.

You cannot hide the truth just in the absence of such  verse from quran. This  already shatters the foundation of man made fallible system of caliphate as this does not exist in quran.

wasalam

Edited by skyweb1987

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1 hour ago, SunniBrother said:

No one effectively explained the ismaeli split and further spliting. And even if no one gave a 100% convincing reply about the naming of the imams and whatever version of the 12 quraish rule hadith someone likes. But I will like to give a further challenge here - Show me one narration that any of the 11 imams claim for themselves being infallible. Something like "I am infallible!" Or something along those lines. And I guarantee no one will be able to find any of the imams claiming such.

`Alī bin Ibrāhīm has narrated from his father from Ḥammād bin `Īsa from Ibrāhīm bin ‘Umar al-Yamānī from Sulaym bin Qays al-al-Hilālī from (Amīr al-Mu’minīn) `Alī, who has said the following:

“Indeed Allāh, the Blessed and the Mighty purified us and made us infallible and appointed us as a witness on His creatures and a Proof on His earth. And He kept us with al-Qur’ān and kept the al-Qur’ān with us. Neither shall we separate from the al-Qur’ān nor will the al-Qur’ān separate from us.” 

Source: Al-Kāfī by Shaykh al-Kulaynī, Vol 1, Pg 191, H 5. Allāmah Al-Majlisī has graded this ḥādīth as “Ḥasan (Good)” in Mirat ul Uqool, Vol 2, Pg 343. And Shaykh Jalāl al-Saghīr also says ḥādīth is “Ṣaḥīḥ” in his Alī Man 'indahu 'ilm al-Kitab ?,Pg 165.

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1 hour ago, Waseem162 said:

The Zaidis do not believe in the 5th Imam, Imam Muhammad al-Baqir,

Excuse me! Don't say it again.

There is a huge population of Zaidi's in the world who are twelver shia including myself. 

If you're talking about Houthi's, then its ok.

Edited by Salsabeel

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16 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

Excuse me! Don't say it again.

There is a huge population of Zaidi's in the world who are twelver shia including myself. 

If you're talking about Houthi's, then its ok.

Note - I have mentioned that these Zaydis are from Yemen. (Houthis)

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33 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

Excuse me! Don't say it again.

There is a huge population of Zaidi's in the world who are twelver shia including myself. 

If you're talking about Houthi's, then its ok.

If I may add something:

1. Houthis is not what they call theirselves but is a nickname given by Aale Saud and the Western media.

Ansarullah is how they call themselves.

2. They do not only consist of Zaidi's but of Shafi's, Ismaili living at the border of the Yemeni-Saudi border and even some anti-Saud salafi muslims as well. They are non-sectarian and anti-imperialist.

3. They are in war wirth Saudi Arabia for exactly the same reasons other countries are at war with Saudi Arabia. Because of imperialist/Sectarian motives from last mentioned and enforced influence through various terrorist groups which are also financed and morally supported by last mentioned.

There are actually no problems between muslims. There is just one sect which wants to dominate and annihilate the other sects and that is the Saudi sponsored Wahhabi sect and all terrorist ofshoots of that same ideology which was almost extinct wasn't it for the fact that the Britons pimped Saudi Arabia with Wahhabism as the official state religion.

 

Edited by Faruk

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