Jump to content
Waseem162

@SunniBrother says 12 Caliph hadeeth fabricated!

Recommended Posts

2 minutes ago, Faruk said:

Then there will be a lot of ahaadith ending in the gutter.

Oh. Okay, I didn't knew you trusted people working for caliphates who killed people of the House. And again no actually rebuked me here. People should read all my points here. Instead of making rounds and avoiding.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, SunniBrother said:

Oh. Okay, I didn't knew you trusted people working for caliphates who killed people of the House. And again no actually rebuked me here. People should read all my points here. Instead of making rounds and avoiding.

I do not support the hadith of the Twelve either. Just stated a simple fact.

As a sunni how do you deal with all the ahaadith that was Umawi/Abbasi biased? I'd like to know your stance.

And how can you still call yourself a sunni saying that you'll throw certain ahaadith in the gutter?

Edited by Faruk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, SunniBrother said:

So according to you guys the Prophet (s.a.w.s) personally named the Imams. If so that's the case then explain to me the Twelver and Ismaeli split and what makes you reject Imam Zayd (r.a) as Imam? Also one name that you refuse to acknowledge - Sayyid Ali Akbar, a supposed brother of your hidden Mahdi. And why there was so much confusion in trying to figure out who was the next Imam?

 

2 hours ago, SunniBrother said:

No one actually disproved my point. You showed me a hadith of the ninth Imam speaking about previous imams. And then said this was the Prophet (s.a.w.s) naming them 12 imams by name. If he named then this doesn't explain the ismaeili and twelver split and the ismaeili further spliting into more sub sects. When I argument this position you just said "I accept the imam position I don't care to inquiry further" then I asked how is this different from Sunnis not questioning the first 3 caliphs and Muawiyah? "We believe in the first 3 caliphs and we don't question their positions" same thing here. Same logic and same fallacy.

Assalaamualeykum,

I believe, this hadeeth might convince you why naming of all the Imam were kept so hidden.

al-Kafi: A number of our companions from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. Isa from Ali b. al-Hakam from Aban who said: al-Ahwal reported to me saying:

Zayd b. Ali b. al-Husayn عليهما السلام sent for me while he was in hiding so I went to see him. He [Zayd] said to me: O Aba Ja`far [al-Ahwal] I used to sit with my father to share a plate with him so he would feed me the choicest piece of meat and cool for me a hot morsel fearing for my health but he did not fear for me enough to save me from the hell-fire! How could it be that he informed you the truth about the religion [the presence of the Hujja] and did not inform me about it! I said to him: may I be made your ransom - it is only because of his fear of hell-fire for you you that he did not inform you! he feared for you that you would reject it and enter the fire, but he informed me [not caring either way] so if I accept I am saved and he was not bothered that I enter the fire [if I reject]. Then I said to him: may I be made your ransom are you better or the prophets? He said: the prophets, I said: Ya`qub said to Yusuf: “O my son - do not relate your dream to your brothers for they will devise a plot against you” (12:5) why not inform them and expect them not to devise a plot against him but rather he was to keep it a secret from them [so as not to tempt them]? the same way your father kept it a secret from you because he feared for you. He said: by Allah! now that you mention that - your man [the Imam] narrated to me in Madina that I am to be killed and crucified in Kinasa and that he has a book which tells of my killing and crucifixion in it. Later I [al-Ahwal] made the pilgrimage and relayed to Aba Abdillah عليه السلام my conversation with Zayd, so he said to me: you took him from in front and from behind, from the right and from the left, from above his head and from below his legs and did not leave him any room to wiggle out [the argument you made was water tight].

- Hadeeth is Authentic

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, SunniBrother said:

How is this different from Sunnis not questioning the first 3 caliphs and Muawiyah?

I'm not a Twelver but Twelvers at least have a clear concept about who and what an Imam should be. How should he be succeeded etcetera.

Sunnism totally lacks this as the succession is not consistent according to one and the same procedure. The procedure is never defined. Succeeding caliphs were not in line with eachother and even caliphs who became caliphs without consultation but just by the sword.

Now you tell me how someone seriously searching for the truth is able to take these things for granted?

Edited by Faruk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, SunniBrother said:

So according to you guys the Prophet (s.a.w.s) personally named the Imams. If so that's the case then explain to me the Twelver and Ismaeli split and what makes you reject Imam Zayd (r.a) as Imam? Also one name that you refuse to acknowledge - Sayyid Ali Akbar, a supposed brother of your hidden Mahdi. And why there was so much confusion in trying to figure out who was the next Imam?

Harun [as] had been explicitly designated his khalifa by Musa [as] before he left for Jabal-al-Tur. Why did Bani Israel choose Samiri [la] and his Golden Calf over Harun [as]?

Quote

what makes you reject Imam Zayd (r.a) as Imam?

He [as] wasn't mansus-min-Allah [swt]. Plain and simple. Imam al-Sajjad[as] had designated Imam al-Baqir[as] as his successor, and we have a plethora of reliable  narrations confirming this.

Quote

Also one name that you refuse to acknowledge - Sayyid Ali Akbar, a supposed* brother of your hidden Mahdi.

His very existence is unconfirmed and disputed.

*that you too have used this word speakes volumes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, AbdusSibtayn said:

Harun [as] had been explicitly designated his khalifa by Musa [as] before he left for Jabal-al-Tur. Why did Bani Israel choose Samiri [la] and his Golden Calf over Harun [as]?

I do not understand. On one hand it was already known who would be the Twelve Imams but at the other hand there is still a form of appointment.

How can someone appoint someone else without having direct contact with Allah just as the Prophets a.s. have?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, SunniBrother said:

Certainly is not counter intuitive when the hadiths speak about Quraish rule. It justify Quraish rule like Uthman and Muawiyah. How many caliphates of the Umayyad and Abbasids where from the Quraish? Think.

:salam:

Dear brother sunni.

We all love Sunni brothers and respect them . 

The 12 Caliphates arent from Qraish , they are from Bani Hashim.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Faruk said:

I do not understand. On one hand it was already known who would be the Twelve Imams but at the other hand there is still a form of appointment.

How can someone appoint someone else without having direct contact with Allah just as the Prophets a.s. have?

Imams are above Prophets. Prophet (saws) was himself an Imam. Ibrahim (a.s) was an Imam.

Then the 12 successors of Prophet(s) were Imams.

Only a Chosen one (Messenger/Prophet/Imam) foretell who is being Chosen by Allah.

Just like every Prophet who came to earth foretell about Prophet(s).

When it comes to appointment - Any body can say he is appointed by Allah. But it will only be confirmed if the one making this claim about other is himself Chosen.

So Our Prophet(s) was chosen, he declared the appointments of 12 Imams after him.

And each Imam themselves made it clear as to who is the one from their progeny who is appointed by Allah.

Not all sons of Yaqub(a.s) were Prophets! In the same way not all the sons of an Imam can be Imam,

Therefore an Imam has to explicitly mention about whom of their sons is Imam.

This was not done just by mere claim. Bu this was proved by the contrast in knowledge the sons had from very cradle and Also the Karmaat (SuperNatural) they exhibited infront of all to make it clear that they are Divinely gifted and made a guide for Mankind.

You are only a warner, and to every people there is a guide.

Now this guide are of 2 types - Divine Guides and Religious Guides.

Divine Guide is ones Aql (Which every nation had).

Religious Guides - Are Messengers, Prophets and Imams. They are the very link between humans and God.

They are the one who bring laws or establish the previous laws.

They're the ones responsible for Justice of Allah on Earth.

They're Hujjah upon every one.  

Just ponder upon this can Earth be alone just even for a second without a Divine Guide may it be any Messenger/Prophet/Imam.

This can't happen. And all school of thoughts agree on this that Earth can't be devoid of Divine Guide (Hujjah) even for a second.

Then After Prophet(s) when deen was perfected. Who will be the one to establish this deen ?? To Guide people through laws of this deen and to maintain Allah's Justice on Earth according to these Laws.

Its very known that a Fallible will fail miserably when he'll try to become a Guide for Entire Ummah.

Since he has no Divine Connection.

So a presence of a Divine guide is essentially necessary! 

I would like you to read this for a better understanding of Messengers, Prophets and Imams.

https://www.al-islam.org/enlightening-commentary-light-holy-quran-vol-1/section-15#imamat-climax-abrahams-honour

InshaAllah will clear your confusion if any.

Edited by Waseem162

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, SunniBrother said:

Because there are other hadiths that say that after 12 rulers from quraish there will be other 12 rulers from Quraish. You can check from Sunni sources and they rebuking you guys using these same hadiths you use to justify the ithna Ashari. To much isnads, to much contradictions, to many versions. And no one actually rebuked me effectively here and my previous questions here still remain unanswered.

Brother i like to see one single hadith mentioning the 12 names of the caliphs /. imams/. rulers including the first 3 caliphs, if your claim is that the hadith of 12 names of imams from the progeny of the prophet saww is not reliable for you.  this is necessary to judge it as counter evidence from 6 sunni sahiheen books.

wasalm

Edited by skyweb1987

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, skyweb1987 said:

Brother i like to see one single hadith mentioning the 12 names of the caliphs /. imams/. rulers including the first 3 caliphs, if your claim is that the hadith of 12 names of imams from the progeny of the prophet saww is not reliable for you.  this is necessary to judge it as counter evidence from sunni sahiheen books.

wasalm

I already quoted one

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, SunniBrother said:

I already quoted one

Burt this is not mentioned from 6 sunni shaihen books. so it is not reliable. Also there is no chain of narrations has been given. . 

There are tyrant rulers like yazid has been mentioned Do sunni take the enemy of ahl labayat like yazid  as their caliphs?

I also like you to quote a verse of quran mentioning that the people can choose the prophets / caliphs/ imams / leaders after the prophet saww for their guidance instead of Allah swt, to justify the hadith of made made fallible system of caliphate.

The prophet saww has mentioned in his hadith given in sahihhen books that the  ummah ie muslsims will follow the history like those of jews. The quran does mention that there were 12 chieftains chosen by Allah swt in them. But the majority did not follow them. how do you like to interpret these verses and hadiths? 

These hadith of 12 caliphs as quoted by the prophet saww  are MOST RELIABLE in the presence of above scenario from quran and hadith.

Edited by skyweb1987

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Faruk Now expanding on Divine Guides and refuting Sunni Caliphate from its root. Logically!

Do you think that a Divine Rule can be run by a fallible? Or Non-Divinely selected being who has no connection with Allah regarding it? 

Do you think the religion of Allah is that weak that Heسُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى can't establish his Proof and authority among Muslims?

Also A caliph (Abu Bakr) who angered the Purified one? So when Purified one is angered , this is some serious issue then. Its a Sahih hadith from your Sunni as well as Shia books that - Who angered Fatima has angered me. And Who angered me has Angered Allah.  How can a man who has angered Allah till his death (because the Purified one never forgave him for the Sake of Allah) can establish the rule of Allah on Earth and then can go on to select the next Caliph??

I'm not talking about his Hell/Heaven. I'm just talking here logically that How can Allah get angered by a Caliph who is responsible to run his Best And Final Deen on Earth.

This puts Abu bakr's khilafa in serious trouble.

Don't you think its really absurd. A fallible, sinner selecting another fallible , Umar who comes and establishes loads of Biddah.

Sunni gave it a name of Good Biddah! Seriously, Was Umar so knowledgeable that he included those things in Deen that Allah never was able to add (like Tarawih, etc) (May Allah forgive all of us)and removed that which Allah was unable to remove (like Mutah)?? (May Allah forgive all of us)

"Today I have perfected your religion and completed my favour upon you, and I was satisfied that Islam be your religion." (Qur'an 5:3)

No change can be done in Laws of Islam after its perfected by Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى.

Thats why in Shia Islam Biddah (innovation) is considered "Haram".

God knows how much Innovation Umar spread. There is a long list in Sahihs. Is this the Divine Rule? Is this Islam? Was Islam just about Message(Prophet) and not about Divine Guidance (The Guides selected by Allah after Prophet)??

Has anytime since Adam(a.s) to Prophet(s) - Allah's rule run by a fallible or "Elected person"??? Not a single verse of Quran confirms this!!

Now putting another angle to it - "If for argument sake" we say okay its from Elections!

Then The Appointment done by Abubakr of Umar and Umar appointing Uthman violates the rule of Election itself.

So the illegitimacy of Umar and Uthman's Caliphate is proved.

If they say is Divine Appointment then Abu Bakr was Elected, So his Caliphate is illegitimate!!

 

Bro, Seriously telling you, this was all politics and grudge these 3 held against Imam Ali.

There are many reasons of this grudge! Not getting married to Bibi Fatima, Not being given banner of Badr.

RasoolAllah closing all doors to his Msjid except that of Imam Ali(a.s).

RasoolAllah in Khaybar saying that - Tomorrow I'll call someone who is loved by me and Allah the most and he loves me and Allah the most.

RasoolAllah saying You're to me as to Haron was to Musa!

Mubahela - Quran saying Ali is Nafs e Rasool., Verses upon Verses for the virtues of Imam Ali.

RasoolAllah saying Ali is the Gate of Knowledge.

List goes on and on and on. Allah knows.

Bro, those fake Caliphs who were even unable to pass a valid judgement from the Book of Allah, How can they be Caliph.

It is narrated in Sahih Bukhari - Umar nearly 70 times uttered it - If Ali were not to be there, I would have perished!!

 

Apply logic. See the Truth!

Btw - Tomorrow is the Event of Ghadeer.

Read this for knowledge - https://www.al-islam.org/ghadir/intro.htm

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, Waseem162 said:

Imams are above Prophets. Prophet (saws) was himself an Imam. Ibrahim (a.s) was an Imam.

This is self contradictory. You said Imam are above Prophets, this means Ali (r.a) is above other prophets. Then you said Prophets are imams so they are above their own selves...huh.

37 minutes ago, Waseem162 said:

Then the 12 successors of Prophet(s) were Imams.

Ismaeilis thinks it went to the other side in the seventh after the sixth.

39 minutes ago, Waseem162 said:

Only a Chosen one (Messenger/Prophet/Imam) foretell who is being Chosen by Allah.

Which?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, skyweb1987 said:

Burt this is not mentioned from 6 sunni shaihen books. so it is not reliable. 

Convenient for you then

2 minutes ago, skyweb1987 said:

Also there is no chain of narrations has been given. . 

I gave - Ibn Umar. A lot of hadiths from the twelve is from him.

3 minutes ago, skyweb1987 said:

There are tyrant rulers like yazid has been mentioned Do sunni take the enemy of ahl labayat like yazid  as their caliphs?

Does twelvers reject living imams?

4 minutes ago, skyweb1987 said:

The prophet saww has mentioned in his hadith given in sahihhen books that the  ummah is muslsims will follow the history like those of jews. the quran does mention that there were 12 chieftains chosen by Allah swt in them. But the majority did not follow them. how do you like to interpret these verses and hadiths? 

Where?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Waseem162 said:

Do you think that a Divine Rule can be run by a fallible? Or Non-Divinely selected being who has no connection with Allah regarding it? 

Certainly cannot be ruled by a hidden Imam who's ghostly figure doesn't do anything besides hiding.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, SunniBrother said:

Convenient for you then

I gave - Ibn Umar. A lot of hadiths from the twelve is from him.

Does twelvers reject living imams?

There is no chain of narrators given for possible fake hadith. Also what is grading of this hadith as per sunni scholars i also like to see it, please.

So it means that they  accept the tyrant rulers ie enemy of ahl labayt  as their imams ./  caliphs. . leaders. The quran mentions the following verse for following the iamms . leaders who were not chosen by Allah swt for the guidance of the nation but the people followed them at their  own intentions:

Those  who lead the people towards Hell. Allah declares in Surah Qasas, verse 41, 

'And We made them Imams who call to the Fire, and on the Day of Resurrection they shall not be assisted.' It means that the end of the one who accepts such an Imam will be in Hell.

They were pharoh and his companions. 

Do you like to follow the leaders leading to hell fire not chosen by Allah swt for the guidance of the people, yet people followed them and they will not be assisted but sent to hell fire?

wasalam

Edited by skyweb1987

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Aquib Rizvi said:

I believe, this hadeeth might convince you why naming of all the Imam were kept so hidden

Aleikum Salam

No it did not because hiding Islamic knowledge is prohibited in the sharia. One should share knowledge. Poor ismaelis no one told them which was the sucessor after the sixth imam.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, SunniBrother said:

This is self contradictory. You said Imam are above Prophets, this means Ali (r.a) is above other prophets. Then you said Prophets are imams so they are above their own selves...huh.

Ismaeilis thinks it went to the other side in the seventh after the sixth.

Which?

Imams are Above Prophets. Yes.

Imam Ali is above Prophets. Yes. But not RasoolAllah. Why? Because RasoolAllah gained Imamate before Imam Ali. Since RasoolAllah was created before Imam Ali.

No I din't said Prophets are Imams.

I said Prophet(saws) and Ibrahim (a.s) are the Imams from Prophets.

There is no contradiction. Read it properly and then try to refute.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, SunniBrother said:

Where?

The verse of Quran 5:12,

And certainly Allah made a covenant with the children of Israel, and We raised up among them twelve chieftains; and Allah said: Surely I am with you; if you keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and believe in My apostles and assist them and offer to Allah a goodly gift, I will most certainly cover your evil deeds, and I will most certainly cause you to enter into gardens beneath which rivers flow, but whoever disbelieves from among you after that, he indeed shall lose the right way. (5:12)

But on account of their breaking their covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard; they altered the words from their places and they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of; and you shall always discover treachery in them excepting a few of them; so pardon them and turn away; surely Allah loves those who do good (to others). (5:13)

the Prophet (S) said the following:

Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 9.422

Narrated Abu Sa’id al-Khudri:

The Prophet said, "You will follow the ways of those nations who were before you, span by span and cubit by cubit (i.e., inch by inch) so much so that even if they entered a hole of a mastigure (lizard), you would follow them.”We said, "O Allah’s Apostle! (Do you mean) the Jews and the Christians?”He said, "Whom else?"

As the above tradition in Sahih al-Bukhari confirms, the Prophet stated that the history of the Children of Israel will be repeated for Muslims.

These hadith of 12 caliphs as quoted by the prophet saww for imams from Ahl albaayt  are MOST RELIABLE in the presence of above scenario from quran and hadith.

Edited by skyweb1987

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, SunniBrother said:

Aleikum Salam

No it did not because hiding Islamic knowledge is prohibited in the sharia. One should share knowledge. Poor ismaelis no one told them which was the sucessor after the sixth imam.

Imam e Sadiq do told them!

When burying Ismail he claimed many times. Ismail is dead. Ismail is gone. He won't come back to tell people around that he is dead now. And he can't be the imam.

I have Sources but since it is in Hindi (there is no value in providing that here)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, SunniBrother said:

Certainly cannot be ruled by a hidden Imam who's ghostly figure doesn't do anything besides hiding.

Mind your Language brother! Don't make me Angry by what you just said. If you don't know anything then try not to say bad things about it.

You don't know anything about Faraj, Why Occultation. When will this end. etc etc.

Read this - 

https://www.al-islam.org/fazail-ul-mahdi-ali-akbar-talaafi/reasons-occultation-imam-mahdi-aj

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, skyweb1987 said:

There is no chain of narrators given for possible fake hadith

Conjecture. Most hadiths of the twelve have a common figure named Jabir bin Samura and Ibn Umar.

7 minutes ago, skyweb1987 said:

So it means that they  accept the tyrant rulers ie enemy of ahl labayt  as their imams ./  

Funny you say that... If appear a tyrant caliph now what you do? Wait the hidden Mahdi?

9 minutes ago, skyweb1987 said:

Do you like to follow the leaders leading to hell fire not chosen by Allah swt for the guidance of the people, yet people followed them and they will not be assisted but sent to hell fire?

If it was chosen by Allah He would have named them one by one in the Qur'an instead of relying un such a obscure and dubious hadiths. Poor Ismaeiles didn't knew which was the Imam apparently nobody knew who was the next after the sixth imam. What about Ali Al Ridha asking money from his followers? What was it for?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Waseem162 said:

Mind your Language brother! Don't make me Angry by what you just said. If you don't know anything then try not to say bad things about it.

You don't know anything about Faraj, Why Occultation. When will this end. etc etc.

Read this - 

https://www.al-islam.org/fazail-ul-mahdi-ali-akbar-talaafi/reasons-occultation-imam-mahdi-aj

Oh. Now you know how sunnis feel when you guys keep insulting what they hold sacred. At least i did not accused Omar of being a homosexual or Aisha (r.a) being a ***** (Nauzubillah)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, SunniBrother said:

Oh. Now you know how sunnis feel when you guys keep insulting what they hold sacred. At least i did not accused Omar of being a homosexual or Aisha (r.a) being a ***** (Nauzubillah)

I never said it. Never will I say this. Just like you keep saying not everyone claiming Sunni represents the Original Sunni Idea,

In the same way not every Twelver claiming to be it doesn't necessarily represents it.

Edited by Waseem162

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Recent Posts on ShiaChat!

    • http://www.presstv.com/Detail/2017/11/19/542786/arab-league-saudi-arabia-iran-meeting True color, desperation will not change anything to human who have been mesmerized.
    • Yeah, I know a set of parents that we’re doing the same thing for their daughter. Kept rejecting guys because they didn’t feel he was up to par. The guys info wouldn’t even make it to get to accept/reject. Their daughter is now 40 and unmarried. They rejected so many guys that people just stopped approaching her. 
    • It absolutely leads to sin unless you are a fantastic mu'min. And yes, although they might not turn to haram in terms of having relationships with girls, but you can't tell me you didn't see these guys talk about some girls in lustful ways or look at them in such a way. Furthermore, and something we seem to forget, is that in these gender mixed schools there is gender mixing in everything. In sport, as an example. Boys turn to watching filthy films whether they are in segregated or gender mixed schools.
    • No brother. What I do is this: I pray 17 rakaat Qadha prays everyday plus 11 rakaats Salaat-ul-layl. Salaat-ul-layl is something that does NOT have any replacement. It gives you good feeling. It really gives human being feeling of being in heaven. If you do Salaat-ul-layl, keep going. It guarantees both Dunya and Akherah.
    • I can give my opinion on men, as I'm not sure about women. I might have a pretty biased view due to personal experience, but some guys can get pretty desperate if they are segregated.  Also how does co-ed lead to sin? Most guys who were my friend in high school turned to pornography to sin, rather than girls. We might as well provide them with home schooling in that case. Trust me, we need to teach guys to respect women in this day and age. Alienating women is not the best option.  To be fair, there is a disadvantage of co-ed. If parents don't monitor their children, then there is a risk of them getting into the boyfriend/girlfriend culture.
×