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@SunniBrother says 12 Caliph hadeeth fabricated!

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Our dear brother - @SunniBrother is claiming that -

"The hadith of 12 rulers from Quraish was fabricated by the Abbasids caliphates. The Prophet (s.a.w.s) say about Imam Zayd (r.a)"

Lets open this issue up!

This is just a discussion thread. No slandering will be tolerated.

We all love our Brother in faith @SunniBrother :)

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No one ever mention the sanad of this hadiths be it Sunni or Shia. Second, this hadith legitimize the rule of Uthman and Muawiyah and all quraish for that matter. The hadith never speak about the Ahl Al Bayt specifically but speak about quraish rule. The funny thing is that Sunnis use this hadith to legitimize the rule of Muawiyah. Nowhere we see any sahaba holding such view like Abu Bakr and Ali (r.a) we also don't see Hussein and Hassan (r.a) holding such view. This hadith legitimize the Umayyad rule and Abbasid rule. Now if someone were to present me all versions of the sanad of this hadith from both shia and Sunni source, if I find one person in the sanad working for the Abbasid or Umayyad rule I am throwing the whole narration into the gutter.

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‫هاشم‬ ‫بن‬ ‫إبراهيم‬ ‫بن‬ ‫علي‬ ‫حدثنا‬ ‫قال‬ ‫عنه‬ ‫الله‬ ‫رضي‬ ‫الهمداني‬ ‫جعفر‬ ‫بن‬ ‫زياد‬ ‫بن‬ ‫محمد‬ ‫حدثنا‬
‫أبيه‬ ‫عن‬ ‫محمد‬ ‫بن‬ ‫جعفر‬ ‫الصادق‬ ‫عن‬ ‫إبراهيم‬ ‫بن‬ ‫غياث‬ ‫عن‬ ‫عمير‬ ‫أبي‬ ‫بن‬ ‫محمد‬ ‫عن‬ ‫أبيه‬ ‫عن‬
‫المؤمنين‬ ‫أمير‬ ‫سئل‬ ‫قال‬ ‫ع‬ ‫علي‬ ‫بن‬ ‫الحسين‬ ‫أبيه‬ ‫عن‬ ‫الحسين‬ ‫بن‬ ‫علي‬ ‫أبيه‬ ‫عن‬ ‫علي‬ ‫بن‬ ‫محمد‬
‫فقال‬ ‫العترة‬ ‫من‬ ‫عترتي‬ ‫و‬ ‫الله‬ ‫كتاب‬ ‫الثقلين‬ ‫فيكم‬ ‫مخلف‬ ‫إني‬ ‫ص‬ ‫الله‬ ‫رسول‬ ‫قول‬ ‫معنى‬ ‫عن‬ ‫ص‬
‫يفارقون‬ ‫قائمهم‬ ‫و‬ ‫مهديهم‬ ‫تاسعهم‬ ‫الحسين‬ ‫ولد‬ ‫من‬ ‫التسعة‬ ‫ٔئمة‬ ‫ا‬ ‫و‬ ‫الحسين‬ ‫و‬ ‫الحسن‬ ‫و‬ ‫أنا‬
‫حوضه‬ ‫ص‬ ‫الله‬ ‫رسول‬ ‫على‬ ‫يردوا‬ ‫حتى‬ ‫يفارقهم‬ ‫و‬ ‫الله‬ ‫كتاب‬

Muhammad b. Ziyad b. Ja‘far al-Hamadani ‫عنه‬ ‫الله‬ ‫رضي‬ from him from ‘Ali b. Ibrahim b.Hashim from his father from Muhammad b. Abi ‘Umayr from Ghiyath b. Ibrahim from al-Sadiq Ja‘far b. Muhammad from his father Muhammad b. ‘Ali from his father ‘Ali b. al-Husayn from his father al-Husayn b. ‘Ali ‫م‬ ‫الس‬ ‫عليه‬ . He said: Amir al-Mu’mineen ‫عليه‬ ‫اللّه‬ ‫صلوات‬ was asked about the meaning of the Messenger of Allah’s ‫صلى‬ ‫وآله‬ ‫عليه‬ ‫الله‬ words, “I am leaving among you two weighty things, the Book of Allah and my progeny”. 28 Who, then, are the progeny? So he said: I, Hasan, Husayn and the nine Imams from the children of Husayn and the ninth from them is the Qa’im and the Mahdi, and they will not separate from the Book of Allah until they reach the Messenger of Allah ‫وآله‬ ‫عليه‬ ‫الله‬ ‫صلى‬ at the Pond. (Kamal ad-Deen, Volume 1, Continuation of Successorship from Prophet Adam, hadith #64)(sahih)

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1 hour ago, Dhulfikar said:

‫هاشم‬ ‫بن‬ ‫إبراهيم‬ ‫بن‬ ‫علي‬ ‫حدثنا‬ ‫قال‬ ‫عنه‬ ‫الله‬ ‫رضي‬ ‫الهمداني‬ ‫جعفر‬ ‫بن‬ ‫زياد‬ ‫بن‬ ‫محمد‬ ‫حدثنا‬
‫أبيه‬ ‫عن‬ ‫محمد‬ ‫بن‬ ‫جعفر‬ ‫الصادق‬ ‫عن‬ ‫إبراهيم‬ ‫بن‬ ‫غياث‬ ‫عن‬ ‫عمير‬ ‫أبي‬ ‫بن‬ ‫محمد‬ ‫عن‬ ‫أبيه‬ ‫عن‬
‫المؤمنين‬ ‫أمير‬ ‫سئل‬ ‫قال‬ ‫ع‬ ‫علي‬ ‫بن‬ ‫الحسين‬ ‫أبيه‬ ‫عن‬ ‫الحسين‬ ‫بن‬ ‫علي‬ ‫أبيه‬ ‫عن‬ ‫علي‬ ‫بن‬ ‫محمد‬
‫فقال‬ ‫العترة‬ ‫من‬ ‫عترتي‬ ‫و‬ ‫الله‬ ‫كتاب‬ ‫الثقلين‬ ‫فيكم‬ ‫مخلف‬ ‫إني‬ ‫ص‬ ‫الله‬ ‫رسول‬ ‫قول‬ ‫معنى‬ ‫عن‬ ‫ص‬
‫يفارقون‬ ‫قائمهم‬ ‫و‬ ‫مهديهم‬ ‫تاسعهم‬ ‫الحسين‬ ‫ولد‬ ‫من‬ ‫التسعة‬ ‫ٔئمة‬ ‫ا‬ ‫و‬ ‫الحسين‬ ‫و‬ ‫الحسن‬ ‫و‬ ‫أنا‬
‫حوضه‬ ‫ص‬ ‫الله‬ ‫رسول‬ ‫على‬ ‫يردوا‬ ‫حتى‬ ‫يفارقهم‬ ‫و‬ ‫الله‬ ‫كتاب‬

Muhammad b. Ziyad b. Ja‘far al-Hamadani ‫عنه‬ ‫الله‬ ‫رضي‬ from him from ‘Ali b. Ibrahim b.Hashim from his father from Muhammad b. Abi ‘Umayr from Ghiyath b. Ibrahim from al-Sadiq Ja‘far b. Muhammad from his father Muhammad b. ‘Ali from his father ‘Ali b. al-Husayn from his father al-Husayn b. ‘Ali ‫م‬ ‫الس‬ ‫عليه‬ . He said: Amir al-Mu’mineen ‫عليه‬ ‫اللّه‬ ‫صلوات‬ was asked about the meaning of the Messenger of Allah’s ‫صلى‬ ‫وآله‬ ‫عليه‬ ‫الله‬ words, “I am leaving among you two weighty things, the Book of Allah and my progeny”. 28 Who, then, are the progeny? So he said: I, Hasan, Husayn and the nine Imams from the children of Husayn and the ninth from them is the Qa’im and the Mahdi, and they will not separate from the Book of Allah until they reach the Messenger of Allah ‫وآله‬ ‫عليه‬ ‫الله‬ ‫صلى‬ at the Pond. (Kamal ad-Deen, Volume 1, Continuation of Successorship from Prophet Adam, hadith #64)(sahih)

So according to you guys the Prophet (s.a.w.s) personally named the Imams. If so that's the case then explain to me the Twelver and Ismaeli split and what makes you reject Imam Zayd (r.a) as Imam? Also one name that you refuse to acknowledge - Sayyid Ali Akbar, a supposed brother of your hidden Mahdi. And why there was so much confusion in trying to figure out who was the next Imam?

Edited by SunniBrother

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1 hour ago, SunniBrother said:

No one ever mention the sanad of this hadiths be it Sunni or Shia. Second, this hadith legitimize the rule of Uthman and Muawiyah and all quraish for that matter. The hadith never speak about the Ahl Al Bayt specifically but speak about quraish rule. The funny thing is that Sunnis use this hadith to legitimize the rule of Muawiyah. Nowhere we see any sahaba holding such view like Abu Bakr and Ali (r.a) we also don't see Hussein and Hassan (r.a) holding such view. This hadith legitimize the Umayyad rule and Abbasid rule. Now if someone were to present me all versions of the sanad of this hadith from both shia and Sunni source, if I find one person in the sanad working for the Abbasid or Umayyad rule I am throwing the whole narration into the gutter.

The problem here is that the notion of 12 Caliphs has dozens of isnads, many of which are sahih. If I were to draw an isnad tree of just the Sunni narrations (which I am considering), you'll see how unlikely it is that such a hadith can be fabricated. If the Umayyads and Abbasids just made it up to promote Qurayshi rule, then that begs the question, why did they include the part about 12? Sunnis never agreed on who the 12 were; the Umayyads had 14 Caliphs, plus the Caliphs of Cordoba. plus the 4-5 Rashidun - there's just no way to do 12 without subjectively picking favourites without any real criteria.

The Sunni hadiths clearly say that there would be 12 Qurayshi Caliphs, and that there would be a Caliph at all times. According to the Sunni definition of Caliph, none of that happened. So clearly, there is a problem with the definition, not the hadith.

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Just now, Qa'im said:

The problem here is that the notion of 12 Caliphs has dozens of isnads, many of which are sahih. If I were to draw an isnad tree of just the Sunni narrations (which I am considering), you'll see how unlikely it is that such a hadith can be fabricated. If the Umayyads and Abbasids just made it up to promote Qurayshi rule, then that begs the question, why did they include the part about 12? Sunnis never agreed on who the 12 were; the Umayyads had 14 Caliphs, plus the Caliphs of Cordoba. plus the 4-5 Rashidun - there's just no way to do 12 without subjectively picking favourites without any real criteria.

The Sunni hadiths clearly say that there would be 12 Qurayshi Caliphs, and that there would be a Caliph at all times. According to the Sunni definition of Caliph, none of that happened. So clearly, there is a problem with the definition, not the hadith.

Abbasid, Umayyad or the Ottoman empire making this hadith up as they go. It could have been made by anyone to maintain rule or self preservation. Sunnis have this hadith talking about Quraish only. Many isnads, many versions, many contradictions. O yes sahih, Sunnis also grade a lot of hadiths sahih like the "Ten promised paradise". Do accept them for being graded sahih? I think not.

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7 minutes ago, Dhulfikar said:

Yes he personally did named the Imams in another hadith. About the split, I suggest brother @Qa'im could give the good detailed answer about it Insha'Allah.

Oh he personally named them. What a discovery. This means that 99% of the ummah are kuffars, masha Allah. Including those guys who didnt knew who was the next imam after Jafar Al Saddiq (r.a) and the sixth or seventh imam that resulted in the twelver and ismaeli split and ismaeli further split in others sub groups.

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Further point - If the holy Prophet (s.a.w.s) personally named them then everyone and I mean everyone, including Imam Ali (r.a) would already know all of them by name. But we don't see neither Ali, Fatima, Hussein and Hassan naming them by name one by one. And if it was named all of them there wouldn't be a split in the first place. Everyone would have know which was the next Imam!

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44 minutes ago, SunniBrother said:

Oh he personally named them. What a discovery. This means that 99% of the ummah are kuffars, masha Allah. Including those guys who didnt knew who was the next imam after Jafar Al Saddiq (r.a) and the sixth or seventh imam that resulted in the twelver and ismaeli split and ismaeli further split in others sub groups.

I really don't understand where you people make the conclusion that they are considered to be Kafirs? Do you think it is logical to assume that the prophet and Imams did not even know the 12 Imams by name? That they don't have such an simple knowledge from Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى. It is by Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى Will to whom He should revealed the names and to whom he should concealed.

Quote

But we don't see neither Ali, Fatima, Hussein and Hassan naming them by name one by one.

عِدَّةٌ مِنْ أَصْحَابِنَا عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ الْبَرْقِيِّ عَنْ أَبِي هَاشِمٍ دَاوُدَ بْنِ الْقَاسِمِ الْجَعْفَرِيِّ عَنْ أَبِي جَعْفَرٍ الثَّانِي ع قَالَ أَقْبَلَ أَمِيرُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ ع وَ مَعَهُ الْحَسَنُ بْنُ عَلِيٍّ ع وَ هُوَ مُتَّكِئٌ عَلَى يَدِ سَلْمَانَ فَدَخَلَ الْمَسْجِدَ الْحَرَامَ فَجَلَسَ إِذْ أَقْبَلَ رَجُلٌ حَسَنُ الْهَيْئَةِ وَ اللِّبَاسِ فَسَلَّمَ عَلَى أَمِيرِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ فَرَدَّ عَلَيْهِ السَّلَامَ فَجَلَسَ ثُمَّ قَالَ يَا أَمِيرَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ أَسْأَلُكَ عَنْ ثَلَاثِ مَسَائِلَ إِنْ أَخْبَرْتَنِي بِهِنَّ عَلِمْتُ أَنَّ الْقَوْمَ رَكِبُوا مِنْ أَمْرِكَ مَا قُضِيَ عَلَيْهِمْ وَ أَنْ لَيْسُوا بِمَأْمُونِينَ فِي دُنْيَاهُمْ وَ آخِرَتِهِمْ وَ إِنْ تَكُنِ الْأُخْرَى عَلِمْتُ أَنَّكَ وَ هُمْ شَرَعٌ سَوَاءٌ فَقَالَ لَهُ أَمِيرُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ ع سَلْنِي عَمَّا بَدَا لَكَ قَالَ أَخْبِرْنِي عَنِ الرَّجُلِ إِذَا نَامَ أَيْنَ تَذْهَبُ رُوحُهُ وَ عَنِ الرَّجُلِ كَيْفَ يَذْكُرُ وَ يَنْسَى وَ عَنِ الرَّجُلِ كَيْفَ يُشْبِهُ وَلَدُهُ الْأَعْمَامَ وَ الْأَخْوَالَ فَالْتَفَتَ أَمِيرُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ ع إِلَى الْحَسَنِ فَقَالَ يَا أَبَا مُحَمَّدٍ أَجِبْهُ قَالَ فَأَجَابَهُ الْحَسَنُ ع فَقَالَ الرَّجُلُ أَشْهَدُ أَنْ لَا إِلَهَ إِلَّا اللَّهُ وَ لَمْ أَزَلْ أَشْهَدُ بِهَا وَ أَشْهَدُ أَنَّ مُحَمَّداً رَسُولُ اللَّهِ وَ لَمْ أَزَلْ أَشْهَدُ بِذَلِكَ وَ أَشْهَدُ أَنَّكَ وَصِيُّ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ ص وَ الْقَائِمُ بِحُجَّتِهِ وَ أَشَارَ إِلَى أَمِيرِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ وَ لَمْ أَزَلْ أَشْهَدُ بِهَا وَ أَشْهَدُ أَنَّكَ وَصِيُّهُ وَ الْقَائِمُ بِحُجَّتِهِ وَ أَشَارَ إِلَى الْحَسَنِ ع وَ أَشْهَدُ أَنَّ الْحُسَيْنَ بْنَ عَلِيٍّ وَصِيُّ أَخِيهِ وَ الْقَائِمُ بِحُجَّتِهِ بَعْدَهُ وَ أَشْهَدُ عَلَى عَلِيِّ بْنِ الْحُسَيْنِ أَنَّهُ الْقَائِمُ بِأَمْرِ الْحُسَيْنِ بَعْدَهُ وَ أَشْهَدُ عَلَى مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عَلِيٍّ أَنَّهُ الْقَائِمُ بِأَمْرِ عَلِيِّ بْنِ الْحُسَيْنِ وَ أَشْهَدُ عَلَى جَعْفَرِ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ بِأَنَّهُ الْقَائِمُ بِأَمْرِ مُحَمَّدٍ وَ أَشْهَدُ عَلَى مُوسَى أَنَّهُ الْقَائِمُ بِأَمْرِ جَعْفَرِ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ وَ أَشْهَدُ عَلَى عَلِيِّ بْنِ مُوسَى أَنَّهُ الْقَائِمُ بِأَمْرِ مُوسَى بْنِ جَعْفَرٍ وَ أَشْهَدُ عَلَى مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عَلِيٍّ أَنَّهُ الْقَائِمُ بِأَمْرِ عَلِيِّ بْنِ مُوسَى وَ أَشْهَدُ عَلَى عَلِيِّ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ بِأَنَّهُ الْقَائِمُ بِأَمْرِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عَلِيٍّ وَ أَشْهَدُ عَلَى الْحَسَنِ بْنِ عَلِيٍّ بِأَنَّهُ الْقَائِمُ بِأَمْرِ عَلِيِّ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ وَ أَشْهَدُ عَلَى رَجُلٍ مِنْ وُلْدِ الْحَسَنِ لَا يُكَنَّى وَ لَا يُسَمَّى حَتَّى يَظْهَرَ أَمْرُهُ فَيَمْلَأَهَا عَدْلًا كَمَا مُلِئَتْ جَوْراً وَ السَّلَامُ عَلَيْكَ يَا أَمِيرَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ وَ رَحْمَةُ اللَّهِ وَ بَرَكَاتُهُ ثُمَّ قَامَ فَمَضَى فَقَالَ أَمِيرُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ يَا أَبَا مُحَمَّدٍ اتْبَعْهُ فَانْظُرْ أَيْنَ يَقْصِدُ فَخَرَجَ الْحَسَنُ بْنُ عَلِيٍّ ع فَقَالَ مَا كَانَ إِلَّا أَنْ وَضَعَ رِجْلَهُ خَارِجاً مِنَ الْمَسْجِدِ فَمَا دَرَيْتُ أَيْنَ أَخَذَ مِنْ أَرْضِ اللَّهِ فَرَجَعْتُ إِلَى أَمِيرِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ ع فَأَعْلَمْتُهُ فَقَالَ يَا أَبَا مُحَمَّدٍ أَ تَعْرِفُهُ قُلْتُ اللَّهُ وَ رَسُولُهُ وَ أَمِيرُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ أَعْلَمُ قَالَ هُوَ الْخَضِرُ ع 


Aboo Ja`far Al-Thaanee (Imaam Al-Taqee Al-Jawaad) said: "Once Amir al-Mu’minin `Alee عليه السلام came with al-Hassan and al-Husayn and he was holding the hand of Salman for support. He entered the sacred Mosque in Makka and sat down. Then a good looking and well dressed man came. He offered the greeting of peace to Amir al-Mu’minin `Alee عليه السلام who answered his greetings likewise and he sat down. He then said, "I will ask you three questions. If you would answer them I will acknowledge that the people who have acted against you in the matters of leadership after the Holy Prophet (s.a) they have acted against their own selves. Their actions have taken away peace from them in this world as well in the next life. If it would be otherwise, (you can answer) then you and those people will be the same." Amir al-Mu’minin`Alee عليه السلام said, "Ask whatever you would like." He said, "Tell about the man who sleeps. Where does his spirit go?" Tell about the man, how he remembers and forgets? Tell me about the man how do his children become similar to the aunts and uncles?" Amir al-Mu’minin `Alee عليه السلام turned to al-Hassan and said, "O Aboo Muhammad, answer him." The narrator has said that al-Hassan answered his questions. The man then said,

"I testify that there is no lord besides Allah and I continue to testify to this fact. I testify that Muhammad صلّى الله عليه وآله is the Messenger of Allah and I continue to testify to this fact I testify that you are the executor of the will of the Messenger of Allah and that you are the in charge of this task ((Leadership with Divine Authority) with His authorization." He pointed out to Amir al-Mu’minin عليه السلام with his hand. He then said, "I continue to testify to this fact." "I testify that you are the executor of his (Amir al-Mu’minin’s عليه السلام will and the in charge of this task ((Leadership with Divine Authority) by His authorization after him (Amir alMu’minin عليه السلام " He pointed out with his hand to al-Hassan عليه السلام. Then He then said, "I continue to testify to this fact."

"I testify that al-Husayn ibn `Alee عليه السلام will be the executor of the will of his brother and the in charge of this task ((Leadership with Divine Authority) with His authorization after him. 

"I testify in support of `Alee ibn al-Husayn عليه السلام that he will be the in charge of the task of al-Husayn after him.

"I testify that Muhammad ibn `Alee will be the in charge of the task of `Alee ibn al-Husayn عليه السلام after him.

"I testify that Ja‘far ibn Muhammad عليه السلام will be the in charge of the task of Muhammad ibn `Alee عليه السلام.

"I testify that Moosa will be the in charge of the task of Ja‘far ibn Muhammad after him.

"I testify that `Alee ibn Moosa will be the in charge of the task of Moosa ibn Ja‘far عليه السلام.

"I testify that Muhammad ibn `Alee عليه السلام will be the in charge of the task of `Alee ibn Moosa عليه السلامafter him.

"I testify that `Alee ibn Muhammad will be the in charge of the task of Muhammad ibn `Alee عليه السلام after him.

"I testify that al-Hassan ibn `Alee عليه السلام will be the in charge of the task of `Alee ibn Muhammad عليه السلامafter him.

"I testify in support of a man from the children of al-Hassan who will not be mentioned by his Kunya (father or son of so and so) or his name until he will rise with Divine authority to fill the earth with justice after being filled with injustice."
I offer you my greeting of peace O Amir al-Mu’minin عليه السلام and praay to Allah to grant you blessings and holiness." He then stood up and left. Amir al-Mu’minin عليه السلام said, "O Aboo Muhammad follow him and see where went." Al-Hassan ibn `Alee عليه السلام went out to find out (and came back) and said, "As soon as he stepped out of the Mosque I could not figure out in which direction of the earth of Allah did he disappear. I returned to Amir al-Mu’minin عليه السلام and informed him." He said, "O Aboo Muhammad, do you know him?" I said, Allah, the Messenger of Allah and Amir al-Mu’minin عليه السلام know best." He said, "He was al-Khidr عليه السلام "
Source:
1.       Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 1, pg. 525 – 526, hadeeth #1
Grading:
1.       Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is SaHeeH (Authentic)
è Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 6, pg. 203

Here is a breakdown of the sanad (chain of narrators)
 
Ahmad bin Muhammad Al-Barqee is thiqah (trustworthy) according to:
1.       Ibn Dawood, Rijaal, pg. 40, person # 119
2.      Al-Najaashee, Rijaal, pg. 77, person # 182
3.      Al-Toosi, Fihrist, pg. 53, person # 65
4.      Al-Hillee, Al-KhulaaSah, pg. 15, person # 7
5.      Al-Khoei, Mu`jam Rijaal Al-Hadeeth, vol. 2, pg. 261, person # 858
 
Dawood bin Al-Qaasim is thiqah according to:
1.       Al-Najaashee, Rijaal, pg. 156, person # 411
2.      Al-Toosi, Fihrist, pg. 182, person # 277
3.      Al-Toosi, Rijaal, pg. 375, pg. 386, pg. 399
4.      Al-Hillee, Al-KhulaaSah, pg. 68, person # 3
5.      Al-Khoei, Mu`jam Rijaal Al-Hadeeth, vol. 7, pg. 118, person # 4419

http://www.revivingalislam.com/2010/08/12-imaams-mentioned-by-name-explicitly.html

Edited by Dhulfikar

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53 minutes ago, SunniBrother said:

This means that 99% of the ummah are kuffars, masha Allah

No brother, unlike a lot of sunnis, we dont declare people kafir left and right and we dont do takfir so easily (see every "islamic" terror organization in the world)

 

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1 hour ago, SunniBrother said:

Abbasid, Umayyad or the Ottoman empire making this hadith up as they go. It could have been made by anyone to maintain rule or self preservation. Sunnis have this hadith talking about Quraish only. Many isnads, many versions, many contradictions. O yes sahih, Sunnis also grade a lot of hadiths sahih like the "Ten promised paradise". Do accept them for being graded sahih? I think not.

The difference here is that with the mubashireena fil janna hadith, there is a clear motive as to why it would be fabricated. With 12 Caliphs, there is no clear motive for a Sunni, Umayyad, or Abbasid to fabricate it. It's counter intuitive.

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1 hour ago, Dhulfikar said:

I really don't understand where you people make the conclusion that they are considered to be Kafirs? Do you think it is logical to assume that the prophet and Imams did not even know the 12 Imams by name? That they don't have such an simple knowledge from Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى. It is by Allah سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى Will to whom He should revealed the names and to whom he should concealed.

عِدَّةٌ مِنْ أَصْحَابِنَا عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ الْبَرْقِيِّ عَنْ أَبِي هَاشِمٍ دَاوُدَ بْنِ الْقَاسِمِ الْجَعْفَرِيِّ عَنْ أَبِي جَعْفَرٍ الثَّانِي ع قَالَ أَقْبَلَ أَمِيرُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ ع وَ مَعَهُ الْحَسَنُ بْنُ عَلِيٍّ ع وَ هُوَ مُتَّكِئٌ عَلَى يَدِ سَلْمَانَ فَدَخَلَ الْمَسْجِدَ الْحَرَامَ فَجَلَسَ إِذْ أَقْبَلَ رَجُلٌ حَسَنُ الْهَيْئَةِ وَ اللِّبَاسِ فَسَلَّمَ عَلَى أَمِيرِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ فَرَدَّ عَلَيْهِ السَّلَامَ فَجَلَسَ ثُمَّ قَالَ يَا أَمِيرَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ أَسْأَلُكَ عَنْ ثَلَاثِ مَسَائِلَ إِنْ أَخْبَرْتَنِي بِهِنَّ عَلِمْتُ أَنَّ الْقَوْمَ رَكِبُوا مِنْ أَمْرِكَ مَا قُضِيَ عَلَيْهِمْ وَ أَنْ لَيْسُوا بِمَأْمُونِينَ فِي دُنْيَاهُمْ وَ آخِرَتِهِمْ وَ إِنْ تَكُنِ الْأُخْرَى عَلِمْتُ أَنَّكَ وَ هُمْ شَرَعٌ سَوَاءٌ فَقَالَ لَهُ أَمِيرُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ ع سَلْنِي عَمَّا بَدَا لَكَ قَالَ أَخْبِرْنِي عَنِ الرَّجُلِ إِذَا نَامَ أَيْنَ تَذْهَبُ رُوحُهُ وَ عَنِ الرَّجُلِ كَيْفَ يَذْكُرُ وَ يَنْسَى وَ عَنِ الرَّجُلِ كَيْفَ يُشْبِهُ وَلَدُهُ الْأَعْمَامَ وَ الْأَخْوَالَ فَالْتَفَتَ أَمِيرُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ ع إِلَى الْحَسَنِ فَقَالَ يَا أَبَا مُحَمَّدٍ أَجِبْهُ قَالَ فَأَجَابَهُ الْحَسَنُ ع فَقَالَ الرَّجُلُ أَشْهَدُ أَنْ لَا إِلَهَ إِلَّا اللَّهُ وَ لَمْ أَزَلْ أَشْهَدُ بِهَا وَ أَشْهَدُ أَنَّ مُحَمَّداً رَسُولُ اللَّهِ وَ لَمْ أَزَلْ أَشْهَدُ بِذَلِكَ وَ أَشْهَدُ أَنَّكَ وَصِيُّ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ ص وَ الْقَائِمُ بِحُجَّتِهِ وَ أَشَارَ إِلَى أَمِيرِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ وَ لَمْ أَزَلْ أَشْهَدُ بِهَا وَ أَشْهَدُ أَنَّكَ وَصِيُّهُ وَ الْقَائِمُ بِحُجَّتِهِ وَ أَشَارَ إِلَى الْحَسَنِ ع وَ أَشْهَدُ أَنَّ الْحُسَيْنَ بْنَ عَلِيٍّ وَصِيُّ أَخِيهِ وَ الْقَائِمُ بِحُجَّتِهِ بَعْدَهُ وَ أَشْهَدُ عَلَى عَلِيِّ بْنِ الْحُسَيْنِ أَنَّهُ الْقَائِمُ بِأَمْرِ الْحُسَيْنِ بَعْدَهُ وَ أَشْهَدُ عَلَى مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عَلِيٍّ أَنَّهُ الْقَائِمُ بِأَمْرِ عَلِيِّ بْنِ الْحُسَيْنِ وَ أَشْهَدُ عَلَى جَعْفَرِ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ بِأَنَّهُ الْقَائِمُ بِأَمْرِ مُحَمَّدٍ وَ أَشْهَدُ عَلَى مُوسَى أَنَّهُ الْقَائِمُ بِأَمْرِ جَعْفَرِ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ وَ أَشْهَدُ عَلَى عَلِيِّ بْنِ مُوسَى أَنَّهُ الْقَائِمُ بِأَمْرِ مُوسَى بْنِ جَعْفَرٍ وَ أَشْهَدُ عَلَى مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عَلِيٍّ أَنَّهُ الْقَائِمُ بِأَمْرِ عَلِيِّ بْنِ مُوسَى وَ أَشْهَدُ عَلَى عَلِيِّ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ بِأَنَّهُ الْقَائِمُ بِأَمْرِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عَلِيٍّ وَ أَشْهَدُ عَلَى الْحَسَنِ بْنِ عَلِيٍّ بِأَنَّهُ الْقَائِمُ بِأَمْرِ عَلِيِّ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ وَ أَشْهَدُ عَلَى رَجُلٍ مِنْ وُلْدِ الْحَسَنِ لَا يُكَنَّى وَ لَا يُسَمَّى حَتَّى يَظْهَرَ أَمْرُهُ فَيَمْلَأَهَا عَدْلًا كَمَا مُلِئَتْ جَوْراً وَ السَّلَامُ عَلَيْكَ يَا أَمِيرَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ وَ رَحْمَةُ اللَّهِ وَ بَرَكَاتُهُ ثُمَّ قَامَ فَمَضَى فَقَالَ أَمِيرُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ يَا أَبَا مُحَمَّدٍ اتْبَعْهُ فَانْظُرْ أَيْنَ يَقْصِدُ فَخَرَجَ الْحَسَنُ بْنُ عَلِيٍّ ع فَقَالَ مَا كَانَ إِلَّا أَنْ وَضَعَ رِجْلَهُ خَارِجاً مِنَ الْمَسْجِدِ فَمَا دَرَيْتُ أَيْنَ أَخَذَ مِنْ أَرْضِ اللَّهِ فَرَجَعْتُ إِلَى أَمِيرِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ ع فَأَعْلَمْتُهُ فَقَالَ يَا أَبَا مُحَمَّدٍ أَ تَعْرِفُهُ قُلْتُ اللَّهُ وَ رَسُولُهُ وَ أَمِيرُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ أَعْلَمُ قَالَ هُوَ الْخَضِرُ ع 


Aboo Ja`far Al-Thaanee (Imaam Al-Taqee Al-Jawaad) said: "Once Amir al-Mu’minin `Alee عليه السلام came with al-Hassan and al-Husayn and he was holding the hand of Salman for support. He entered the sacred Mosque in Makka and sat down. Then a good looking and well dressed man came. He offered the greeting of peace to Amir al-Mu’minin `Alee عليه السلام who answered his greetings likewise and he sat down. He then said, "I will ask you three questions. If you would answer them I will acknowledge that the people who have acted against you in the matters of leadership after the Holy Prophet (s.a) they have acted against their own selves. Their actions have taken away peace from them in this world as well in the next life. If it would be otherwise, (you can answer) then you and those people will be the same." Amir al-Mu’minin`Alee عليه السلام said, "Ask whatever you would like." He said, "Tell about the man who sleeps. Where does his spirit go?" Tell about the man, how he remembers and forgets? Tell me about the man how do his children become similar to the aunts and uncles?" Amir al-Mu’minin `Alee عليه السلام turned to al-Hassan and said, "O Aboo Muhammad, answer him." The narrator has said that al-Hassan answered his questions. The man then said,

"I testify that there is no lord besides Allah and I continue to testify to this fact. I testify that Muhammad صلّى الله عليه وآله is the Messenger of Allah and I continue to testify to this fact I testify that you are the executor of the will of the Messenger of Allah and that you are the in charge of this task ((Leadership with Divine Authority) with His authorization." He pointed out to Amir al-Mu’minin عليه السلام with his hand. He then said, "I continue to testify to this fact." "I testify that you are the executor of his (Amir al-Mu’minin’s عليه السلام will and the in charge of this task ((Leadership with Divine Authority) by His authorization after him (Amir alMu’minin عليه السلام " He pointed out with his hand to al-Hassan عليه السلام. Then He then said, "I continue to testify to this fact."

"I testify that al-Husayn ibn `Alee عليه السلام will be the executor of the will of his brother and the in charge of this task ((Leadership with Divine Authority) with His authorization after him. 

"I testify in support of `Alee ibn al-Husayn عليه السلام that he will be the in charge of the task of al-Husayn after him.

"I testify that Muhammad ibn `Alee will be the in charge of the task of `Alee ibn al-Husayn عليه السلام after him.

"I testify that Ja‘far ibn Muhammad عليه السلام will be the in charge of the task of Muhammad ibn `Alee عليه السلام.

"I testify that Moosa will be the in charge of the task of Ja‘far ibn Muhammad after him.

"I testify that `Alee ibn Moosa will be the in charge of the task of Moosa ibn Ja‘far عليه السلام.

"I testify that Muhammad ibn `Alee عليه السلام will be the in charge of the task of `Alee ibn Moosa عليه السلامafter him.

"I testify that `Alee ibn Muhammad will be the in charge of the task of Muhammad ibn `Alee عليه السلام after him.

"I testify that al-Hassan ibn `Alee عليه السلام will be the in charge of the task of `Alee ibn Muhammad عليه السلامafter him.

"I testify in support of a man from the children of al-Hassan who will not be mentioned by his Kunya (father or son of so and so) or his name until he will rise with Divine authority to fill the earth with justice after being filled with injustice."
I offer you my greeting of peace O Amir al-Mu’minin عليه السلام and praay to Allah to grant you blessings and holiness." He then stood up and left. Amir al-Mu’minin عليه السلام said, "O Aboo Muhammad follow him and see where went." Al-Hassan ibn `Alee عليه السلام went out to find out (and came back) and said, "As soon as he stepped out of the Mosque I could not figure out in which direction of the earth of Allah did he disappear. I returned to Amir al-Mu’minin عليه السلام and informed him." He said, "O Aboo Muhammad, do you know him?" I said, Allah, the Messenger of Allah and Amir al-Mu’minin عليه السلام know best." He said, "He was al-Khidr عليه السلام "
Source:
1.       Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 1, pg. 525 – 526, hadeeth #1
Grading:
1.       Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is SaHeeH (Authentic)
è Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 6, pg. 203

Here is a breakdown of the sanad (chain of narrators)
 
Ahmad bin Muhammad Al-Barqee is thiqah (trustworthy) according to:
1.       Ibn Dawood, Rijaal, pg. 40, person # 119
2.      Al-Najaashee, Rijaal, pg. 77, person # 182
3.      Al-Toosi, Fihrist, pg. 53, person # 65
4.      Al-Hillee, Al-KhulaaSah, pg. 15, person # 7
5.      Al-Khoei, Mu`jam Rijaal Al-Hadeeth, vol. 2, pg. 261, person # 858
 
Dawood bin Al-Qaasim is thiqah according to:
1.       Al-Najaashee, Rijaal, pg. 156, person # 411
2.      Al-Toosi, Fihrist, pg. 182, person # 277
3.      Al-Toosi, Rijaal, pg. 375, pg. 386, pg. 399
4.      Al-Hillee, Al-KhulaaSah, pg. 68, person # 3
5.      Al-Khoei, Mu`jam Rijaal Al-Hadeeth, vol. 7, pg. 118, person # 4419

http://www.revivingalislam.com/2010/08/12-imaams-mentioned-by-name-explicitly.html

This doesn't prove anything. Imaam Al-Taqee Al-Jawaad was the ninth imam according to twelvers. So of course he knew the name of those who came before him. It's a self-fulfilling. Prophecy.

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15 minutes ago, Qa'im said:

The difference here is that with the mubashireena fil janna hadith, there is a clear motive as to why it would be fabricated. With 12 Caliphs, there is no clear motive for a Sunni, Umayyad, or Abbasid to fabricate it. It's counter intuitive.

Certainly is not counter intuitive when the hadiths speak about Quraish rule. It justify Quraish rule like Uthman and Muawiyah. How many caliphates of the Umayyad and Abbasids where from the Quraish? Think.

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6 minutes ago, SunniBrother said:

Certainly is not counter intuitive when the hadiths speak about Quraish rule. It justify Quraish rule like Uthman and Muawiyah. How many caliphates of the Umayyad and Abbasids where from the Quraish? Think.

But by the end of the Umayyads there had already been 19 Qurayshi Caliphs. Why would they fabricate that there would be only 12? And how do you reconcile with the hadith in the same chapter that says that there will always be a Caliph?

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Just now, Qa'im said:

But by the end of the Umayyads there had already been 19 Qurayshi Caliphs. Why would they fabricate that there would be only 12? And how do you reconcile with the hadith in the same chapter that says that there will always be a Caliph?

Because there are other hadiths that say that after 12 rulers from quraish there will be other 12 rulers from Quraish. You can check from Sunni sources and they rebuking you guys using these same hadiths you use to justify the ithna Ashari. To much isnads, to much contradictions, to many versions. And no one actually rebuked me effectively here and my previous questions here still remain unanswered.

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14 minutes ago, SunniBrother said:

This doesn't prove anything. Imaam Al-Taqee Al-Jawaad was the ninth imam according to twelvers. So of course he knew the name of those who came before him. It's a self-fulfilling. Prophecy.

16 minutes ago, SunniBrother said:

This doesn't prove anything. Imaam Al-Taqee Al-Jawaad was the ninth imam according to twelvers. So of course he knew the name of those who came before him. It's a self-fulfilling. Prophecy.

Either he made it up or he spoke the truth. I don't question the authority of 9th imam and his knowledge. 

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16 minutes ago, Dhulfikar said:

Either he made it up or he spoke the truth. I don't question the authority of 9th imam and his knowledge. 

He made up. Yes don't question it. Like Sunnis don't question the first 3 caliphs and Muawiyah or Kaab Al Ahbar. Excessive taqlid leads to shirk.

Edited by SunniBrother

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20 minutes ago, Dhulfikar said:

You have big claims without proof of course. Do you question the Prophet Muhammad or Imam Ali? Do you really think i should question an Imam which I believe he speak the truth. Lol excessive taqlid. 

I believe in Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.s) and Imam Ali (r.a). Okay you don't question your Imams or your religion. How is this different from Sunnis not questioning the first 3 caliphs and Muawiyah? Still no one actually rebuked me here and they are just making rounds on the questions.

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14 minutes ago, SunniBrother said:

I believe in Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.s) and Imam Ali (r.a). Okay you don't question your Imams or your religion. How is this different from Sunnis not questioning the first 3 caliphs and Muawiyah? Still no one actually rebuked me here and they are just making rounds on the questions.

Brother why should I care what Sunnis believe nor you care what I believe. I just showed Shia sahih hadiths to show you our position. 

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1 hour ago, Dhulfikar said:

Brother why should I care what Sunnis believe nor you care what I believe. I just showed Shia sahih hadiths to show you our position. 

No one actually disproved my point. You showed me a hadith of the ninth Imam speaking about previous imams. And then said this was the Prophet (s.a.w.s) naming them 12 imams by name. If he named then this doesn't explain the ismaeili and twelver split and the ismaeili further spliting into more sub sects. When I argument this position you just said "I accept the imam position I don't care to inquiry further" then I asked how is this different from Sunnis not questioning the first 3 caliphs and Muawiyah? "We believe in the first 3 caliphs and we don't question their positions" same thing here. Same logic and same fallacy.

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Was the twelve imams named one by one by Muhammad (s.a.w.s) Ali (r.a), Fatima (r.a), Hussein (r.a), Hassan(r.a)? Or you just have a narration from the ninth imam speaking about the previous imams before him AFTER the ismaeli and Twelver split and further splitting of the Ismaelites? How was people confused in which was the next imam if they knew it by name? You waiting a hidden Imam for what? 800 years? And no one saw the imam of time since then? How is the Imam of Time able to guide you if you don't even know his face or heard him talking? When was the last time you guys had an actual living imam to guide the community? Because according to Usulis you can't even do taqlid on rulings from dead people.

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Do you guys accept this narration about the twelve rulers?

 

Narrated by Ibn Umar that the Prophet (s.a.w.s) said: There will be after me 12 caliphs: Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthmaan, Mu’awiya, Yaziid, as-Saffaah, Mansur, Jaabir, al-Amiin, Salaam, Mahdi and Amir al-‘Asb
Source - Tarikh al-Khulafaa

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9 hours ago, SunniBrother said:

No one ever mention the sanad of this hadiths be it Sunni or Shia. Second, this hadith legitimize the rule of Uthman and Muawiyah and all quraish for that matter. The hadith never speak about the Ahl Al Bayt specifically but speak about quraish rule. The funny thing is that Sunnis use this hadith to legitimize the rule of Muawiyah. Nowhere we see any sahaba holding such view like Abu Bakr and Ali (r.a) we also don't see Hussein and Hassan (r.a) holding such view. This hadith legitimize the Umayyad rule and Abbasid rule. Now if someone were to present me all versions of the sanad of this hadith from both shia and Sunni source, if I find one person in the sanad working for the Abbasid or Umayyad rule I am throwing the whole narration into the gutter.

Then there will be a lot of ahaadith ending in the gutter.

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