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Waseem162

Sunnism or Contradictionism??

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This is just a criticism thread and no insult is intended to be propagated through it.

I will be very open and logical to say this that Sunni school of thought is a complete form of Contradiction right from its root.

This school of thought is contradictory from its books, from its practices and from History too!

The List of contradiction never ends. And a person who has done enough research into this sect "Without any bias and preconceived notion" then he must say this too.

This school of thought has born out of politics, misconceptions, fabrications, enmity and defamation.

Islam is always there where it should be - At the top. But this school of thought is a mere gimmick now hyped to a level that people don't want to listen anything against it.

I am not a Sunni hater. I hate to hate.

But Criticism is a part of life and it must be done when it comes to religion and atleast to make people aware of what they're following.

I'm going to add up links to different books refuting Sunni Ideology from their own books.

Now don't bring me any Shia refutation.

I would appreciate if you first read Sunni Refutation with an open mind considering you are just in search for Truth.

Link 1 - https://www.al-islam.org/ali-best-sahabah-toyib-olawuyi

Link 2 - https://www.al-islam.org/khilafah-ali-over-abu-bakr-toyib-olawuyi

Link 3 - https://www.al-islam.org/hadith-al-thaqalayn-deposed-will-last-prophet-humanity-toyib-olawuyi

Link 4 - https://www.al-islam.org/abd-Allah-ibn-saba-myth-exploded-toyib-olawuyi

Link 5 - https://www.al-islam.org/did-abu-bakr-really-lead-salat-toyib-olawuyi

Link 6 - https://www.al-islam.org/black-thursday-muhammad-al-tijani-al-samawi

Link 7 - https://www.al-islam.org/truth-about-companions-sayyid-ali-al-husayni-al-milani

Link 8 - https://www.al-islam.org/ask-those-who-know-muhammad-al-tijani-al-samawi

Link 9 - https://www.al-islam.org/then-i-was-guided-muhammad-al-tijani-al-samawi

Link 10 -  https://www.al-islam.org/all-solutions-are-with-prophet-s-progeny-muhammad-al-tijani

If you're Truthful enough to realize the truth then you'll read the books otherwise you'll just jump here and there claiming Sunni school of thought is perfect. Well that doesn't makes any sense then.

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salam akhi.

it would be better if you point out specific contradictions and references instead of making general claims while referring to books which some or most of us dont have the time to read. so that people can better respond to those contradtions.

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1 hour ago, just a muslim said:

salam akhi.

it would be better if you point out specific contradictions and references instead of making general claims while referring to books which some or most of us dont have the time to read. so that people can better respond to those contradtions.

Wa Alaekum Assalam brother. These books are nothing but those specific claims only. Each book has a specific title. If you just want to know the claims then read the title of each book. If you want to know whether that claim is legit then kindly give your 2-3 hour to each book once a week.

Each book only requires 2-3 hours for proper investigation.

Truth is not obtained easily., It needs a quest.

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8 hours ago, Waseem162 said:

Wa Alaekum Assalam brother. These books are nothing but those specific claims only. Each book has a specific title. If you just want to know the claims then read the title of each book. If you want to know whether that claim is legit then kindly give your 2-3 hour to each book once a week.

Each book only requires 2-3 hours for proper investigation.

Truth is not obtained easily., It needs a quest.

true. but i read the titles and they didnt help much. can you put forward one claim for now so i can see what it's all about?

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I'm listing some basic contradiction-

  • Sunni believes that All sahaba were good and all are going to Jannah. And in their own books (Sahihaens) many so called munafiqeen-Sahaba have been unmasked. Some killing each other. Some exiling others. Muawiyah being the worst of em all who waged a war against Imam Ali and many Sahabas and momeneens were killed in the Battle of Siffin. There are many worst crimes listed in his name by the Sunni books let alone the Shia books. Read this for more details https://www.al-islam.org/truth-about-companions-sayyid-ali-al-husayni-al-milani

 

  • The Caliphate of first 3 Caliphs. If they believe Caliphs can only be appointed Divine Appointment then the Shura was illegitimate and the Caliphate of Abu Bakr comes under Scrutiny. If they claim Caliphs can only be appointed by election (shura) then the Caliphate of Umar and Uthman comes into Scrutiny because they were directly appointed by their predecessor if you study the selection properly. No Shura was done.

 

  • Abu Bakr Angered Bibi Fatima. Whoever Angered Any of those 5 Pure Ones directly hurt Prophet(s) and Allahسُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى. Still that man remained the Caliph of Muslims after angering the very Lord of the World and His Prophet(s) because Bibi Fatima never forgave him of what he did to her household. Mentioned in Sahihaens.

 

  • Umar innovated a lot. Mentioned in Sahihaens. Still he was a Caliph and not a disbeliever?? His innovation was termed as 'Good Innovation'. Allah perfected his religion on the Day of Event of Ghadeer E Khum when Imam Ali was declared as Caliph and the  Successor of Prophet and Everyone gave allegiance to Imam Ali. Recorded in Sahihaens and other prominent Sunni Books. When Allah has perfected his religion there is no chance that something can be added or removed. Verse of Perfection of religion - Surah Maidah (verse3) "This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion."

 

  • They claim that Abu Bakr led the Prayer and Prophet(s) prayed behind him (NauzoBillah).  https://www.al-islam.org/did-abu-bakr-really-lead-salat-toyib-olawuyi Read this to know according to Islamic Laws who can led a prayer when and how. According to the book (very short one) it is proved that this is just a fallacy and Sunnis claim contradict Islamic laws.

 

  • Their Caliphate System violates 12 Caliph hadeeth mentioned in many Sahihaens and also in every Shia book.
  • Who was more deserving for Caliphate. Should Caliphate be Divine or elected by fallibles? Was Islam to be left to be managed by common people? Sunni Books contradicts this. They had many ahadeeth claiming that Caliphate must be Divinely appointed and Prophet(s) making Ali (a.s) as his 1st Caliph. Read this https://www.al-islam.org/khilafah-ali-over-abu-bakr-toyib-olawuyi

 

  • Read about the Black Thursday when Umar and his company stopped Prophet(s) to write his will!! You know 'Writing Will' is how much important in Islam?? Go and read its merits. And if someone doesn't writes his will it'll create a turmoil after he passes away over his properties. Can you Imagine a Prophet wanting to write a will and is stopped by someone by saying something Absurd. May Allah curse them who said bad things to our Master Prophet(s). Everyone knew that Prophet(s) was going to write about his successor who can hold the reign of Islam and can execute the Will of Allah and not let any one get deviated after Prophet(s). He(s) wanted to save everyone under Pure Islam but the corrupt people din't let him so. Read this for more detail https://www.al-islam.org/black-thursday-muhammad-al-tijani-al-samawi

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16 hours ago, Waseem162 said:

I'm listing some basic contradiction-

  • Sunni believes that All sahaba were good and all are going to Jannah. And in their own books (Sahihaens) many so called munafiqeen-Sahaba have been unmasked. Some killing each other. Some exiling others. Muawiyah being the worst of em all who waged a war against Imam Ali and many Sahabas and momeneens were killed in the Battle of Siffin. There are many worst crimes listed in his name by the Sunni books let alone the Shia books. Read this for more details https://www.al-islam.org/truth-about-companions-sayyid-ali-al-husayni-al-milani

 

  • The Caliphate of first 3 Caliphs. If they believe Caliphs can only be appointed Divine Appointment then the Shura was illegitimate and the Caliphate of Abu Bakr comes under Scrutiny. If they claim Caliphs can only be appointed by election (shura) then the Caliphate of Umar and Uthman comes into Scrutiny because they were directly appointed by their predecessor if you study the selection properly. No Shura was done.

 

  • Abu Bakr Angered Bibi Fatima. Whoever Angered Any of those 5 Pure Ones directly hurt Prophet(s) and Allahسُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى. Still that man remained the Caliph of Muslims after angering the very Lord of the World and His Prophet(s) because Bibi Fatima never forgave him of what he did to her household. Mentioned in Sahihaens.

 

  • Umar innovated a lot. Mentioned in Sahihaens. Still he was a Caliph and not a disbeliever?? His innovation was termed as 'Good Innovation'. Allah perfected his religion on the Day of Event of Ghadeer E Khum when Imam Ali was declared as Caliph and the  Successor of Prophet and Everyone gave allegiance to Imam Ali. Recorded in Sahihaens and other prominent Sunni Books. When Allah has perfected his religion there is no chance that something can be added or removed. Verse of Perfection of religion - Surah Maidah (verse3) "This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion."

 

  • They claim that Abu Bakr led the Prayer and Prophet(s) prayed behind him (NauzoBillah).  https://www.al-islam.org/did-abu-bakr-really-lead-salat-toyib-olawuyi Read this to know according to Islamic Laws who can led a prayer when and how. According to the book (very short one) it is proved that this is just a fallacy and Sunnis claim contradict Islamic laws.

 

  • Their Caliphate System violates 12 Caliph hadeeth mentioned in many Sahihaens and also in every Shia book.
  • Who was more deserving for Caliphate. Should Caliphate be Divine or elected by fallibles? Was Islam to be left to be managed by common people? Sunni Books contradicts this. They had many ahadeeth claiming that Caliphate must be Divinely appointed and Prophet(s) making Ali (a.s) as his 1st Caliph. Read this https://www.al-islam.org/khilafah-ali-over-abu-bakr-toyib-olawuyi

 

  • Read about the Black Thursday when Umar and his company stopped Prophet(s) to write his will!! You know 'Writing Will' is how much important in Islam?? Go and read its merits. And if someone doesn't writes his will it'll create a turmoil after he passes away over his properties. Can you Imagine a Prophet wanting to write a will and is stopped by someone by saying something Absurd. May Allah curse them who said bad things to our Master Prophet(s). Everyone knew that Prophet(s) was going to write about his successor who can hold the reign of Islam and can execute the Will of Allah and not let any one get deviated after Prophet(s). He(s) wanted to save everyone under Pure Islam but the corrupt people din't let him so. Read this for more detail https://www.al-islam.org/black-thursday-muhammad-al-tijani-al-samawi

1. yes. i agree. i do not agree with all the sahaba going to jannah. there is no clear evidence for all sahaba going to jannah. and we have ahadith which do say that a sahabi was punished for stealing something from the war booty. so, unless somebody brings proof of all sahaba going to jannah and solves the contradictions, you and I are on the same page that not all sahaba will go to jannah. and by sahaba, i am taking the loose definition of any muslim who accompanied the prophet pbuh and died like that.

2. about the innovation of taraweeh by Umar RA. lets define what a bid'ah is. we say, anything introduced in islam for which there is no basis in the quran or the sunnah of the prophet pbuh is bidah. now, for the taraweeh, the prophet pbuh prayed 3 nights tahajjud in congregation in ramadan. he himself said that he didnt pray for more than 3 nights because he feared Allah would make it obligatory for all, and that would be too difficult for the people. after the prophet's pbuh death, religion was completed and revelation had ended. there was no chance any new obligation would be introduced. so, there was no reason to no resume the tahajjud congregation in ramadan. nothing was added. it was resumed. 

having said that, the best thing to do is to pray in the last third of the night. and if someone is a haafidh, it is better for him to pray by himself in the last third of the night.

also, can you give me a shia hadith reference which says that the verse of completion of religion was revealed on ghadir khum?

3. the prophet pbuh didnt pray behind abu bakr RA. whoever says so is mistaken. abu bakr ra didnt allow himself to lead while the prophet pbuh stood behind. he moved back and motioned the prophet pbuh to lead, even though the prophet pbuh told him to continue leading. most of the sunnis are mistaken about this.

my knowledge of the caliphate is very limited, but i would say that caliphate isnt a religious issue, rather an administrative/political issue. and due to my limited knowledge(and not because i know the answer and am not telling because i have disease in my heart, in case that thought crosses a readers mind), i can't give you an answer for the question about caliphate.

5. give me the exact references to ahadith about your issue with abu bakr angering Fatima SA. and then your claims/contradictions in it.

6. the 12 caliphs hadith isnt violated. and the 12 arent the shia imams. 

ahadith say that islam will prevail through them. we believe the first 5, including hasan AS, and umar bin abdul aziz, and imam mahdi, are 7 of those 12. the remaining 5 may have come. or they may come. Allah knows best. 

7. im quite glad that you brought up the black thursday. ill respond to that inshaAllah when we are done with those mentioned above.

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And what about their claim of Quranic verses being eaten by a sheep but still valid? And what about their claim of Allah having a body and actually sitting on a throne?Or the Quran having seven different ways to be read?

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3 hours ago, Jimmy Boy said:

And what about their claim of Quranic verses being eaten by a sheep but still valid? And what about their claim of Allah having a body and actually sitting on a throne?Or the Quran having seven different ways to be read?

as for the quranic verser being eaten, let me first correct you. that hadith is not authentic.

secondly, EVEN IF the hadith was correct, lets see what it would imply. verses are not something physical. pages on which verses are written are a physical thing. those pages being eaten by a sheet does not mean that the quran was lost, it remained in the memory of the companions. 

when you want to dispose of an old mushaf, what do you do? we either burn it or drown it in the sea. doesnt mean we are destroying the quran. we are only disposing of the mushaf which doesnt affect the quran in any way.

 

i dont know who claimed Allah has a body. nobody except for one deviated sect as far as my knowledge goes.

 

as for the sitting on the throne, we do not say sitting. we say mustawi, as the verb in the quran say "istawa 'ala al-'Arsh."

we also have a hadith where basically a slave woman declared her imaan by pointing towards the sky in answer to the question of where Allah is. another logical reason for this is that Allah swt always says that he sent down revelation and uses the same basic verb of sending down pretty much everywhere, which indicates that Allah is somewhere above. 

as for those ayaat which indicate Him being everywhere, we look at them in light of the other ayaat and say that these mean Allah's sight, hearing, knowledge and other things when it says that he is very near to the believer or that two people are never alone but Allah is the third and so on.

 

as for the quran having seven different ways to read, i myself have not understood that issue properly. but just to give you some information, there are two separate things. one is qira'at and the other is ahruf. i have a book by yasir qadhi and another by a different scholar about this very issue and havent yet read them. but will read them inshaAllah as soon as i get time. if you want, i can refer you to them and you can read the 2 chapters about qiraat and ahruf directly. 

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22 hours ago, just a muslim said:

2. about the innovation of taraweeh by Umar RA. lets define what a bid'ah is. we say, anything introduced in islam for which there is no basis in the quran or the sunnah of the prophet pbuh is bidah. now, for the taraweeh, the prophet pbuh prayed 3 nights tahajjud in congregation in ramadan. he himself said that he didnt pray for more than 3 nights because he feared Allah would make it obligatory for all, and that would be too difficult for the people. after the prophet's pbuh death, religion was completed and revelation had ended. there was no chance any new obligation would be introduced. so, there was no reason to no resume the tahajjud congregation in ramadan. nothing was added. it was resumed. 

having said that, the best thing to do is to pray in the last third of the night. and if someone is a haafidh, it is better for him to pray by himself in the last third of the night.

also, can you give me a shia hadith reference which says that the verse of completion of religion was revealed on ghadir khum?

What if Umer himself confessed that it was "Bidah" which was not in the life of Prophet PBUHHP. There are nawafil prayers in Ramadan but they are to be performed individually and not collectively behind a reciter. Look at this narration in Sahih Bukhari from Umer himself:

Imam al-Bukhari narrates from ‘Abdullah ibn ‘Abd al-Qari, “In one of the nights of the month of Ramadan, I went to the masjid with Umar ibn al-Khattab. We saw the people in scattered groups, with individuals praying by themselves. Others were praying with a group praying behind them. Umar looked at me and said, ‘In my opinion, if I can bring all these people together behind one who recites, then it would be better.’ So, he gathered them and made ‘Ubay ibn Ka‘ab lead them in prayers. I went with him another night to the masjid, and saw people all praying together behind a person reciting. Umar looked at them and said, Ni‘mat al-bid‘ah hadhihi (‘This is a good innovation’).’”48

In the Shi‘a tradition, the recommended prayers (al-nawafil) during the month of Ramadan are performed individually.

22 hours ago, just a muslim said:

also, can you give me a shia hadith reference which says that the verse of completion of religion was revealed on ghadir khum?

[Pooya/Ali Commentary 5:67]

The followers of "Muhammad and ali Muhammad" are quite certain that this verse descended about the wilayah (regency) of Ali on the day of Ghadir Khum, and the traditions in our records on the subject are numerous and consecutively transmitted through the Imams of the holy posterity of the Holy Prophet, whose reporting is enough for us, and should also be so for the Muslims, because they alone are the truthful (sadiqin) as per verse 119 of al Tawbah (refer to Hafiz Abu Nu-aym; Muwaffaq ibn Ahmad; and Ibn Hajar in his Sawa-iq al Muhriqah, chap. 11, p. 90).

 

Ibn abi Hatim quotes Abu Sa-id Khudri and Antara; Ibn Marduwayh quotes Abdullah bin Masud and Abu Sa-id Khudri; Ibn Asakir quotes Abu Said Khudri; Abu Bakr Shirazi, Muhammad bin Talha Qarshi and Sayyid Ali al Hamdani quote Abdullah bin Abbas; Nizamuddin Nayshapuri quotes Abdullah bin Abbas, Abu Sa-id Khudri and Bara bin Azib, to say that this verse was revealed about the wilayah of Ali ibn abi Talib; and Sabbagh Maliki in Fusul al Muhimma; Badruddin Ayni in Umdatul Qari, Muhaddith Shirazi in Kitab al Arba-in; Shahabuddin Ahmad in Tawdih al Dala-il; and Mu-tamad Khan Badakhshani in Miftah al Nijat also confirm it.

 

Hafiz Abu Bakr bin Marduwayh in Manaqib quotes Abdullah bin Masud that during the life time of the Holy Prophet they used to recite this verse with Inna Aliyyan Mawla al mu-minin (Ali is the master of the faithful).

 

The shortest narration of the event of Ghadir is given below:

 

While returning from his last hajj, in 10 Hijra, the Holy Prophet, alongwith the huge caravan of nearly one hundred thousand Muslims, made a halt at Ghadir Khum, a midway stop between Makka and Madina.

 

He had received the following verse from Allah:

 

O Our Messenger! Deliver what has been sent down unto you from your Lord; and if you do not, then you have not delivered His Message; and surely Allah will protect you from men."

(MA-IDAH: 67)

 

The Holy Prophet mounted a tall pulpit and delivered a long sermon, recounting his services towards the fulfilment of his mission as the messenger of Allah. He asked the audience whether he had conveyed to them the commands of Allah, enumerating them one after another.

 

The huge gathering, in one voice, said "yes". "Do I wield authority over your souls more than you do?" He asked.

 

"Certainly it is so, O Messenger of Allah" . They replied.

 

Then he asked Ali to come up. He held him in both his hands, raised him high, so much that the whole assembly of men and women saw him clearly.

 

He again addressed them:

 

"O men and women! Allah is my Mawla (Lord-Master). I am the mawla of the faithfuls. I have a clear authority over their souls, And of whomsoever I am the mawla (this) Ali is his mawla. O Allah! Love him who loves Ali, hate him who hates Ali."

 

At the end of this declaration the following verse was revealed:

 

"This day I have perfected for you, your religion, and have completed my favour on you, and have chosen for you Islam, as religion."(MA-IDAH: 3)

22 hours ago, just a muslim said:

3. the prophet pbuh didnt pray behind abu bakr RA. whoever says so is mistaken. abu bakr ra didnt allow himself to lead while the prophet pbuh stood behind. he moved back and motioned the prophet pbuh to lead, even though the prophet pbuh told him to continue leading. most of the sunnis are mistaken about this.

my knowledge of the caliphate is very limited, but i would say that caliphate isnt a religious issue, rather an administrative/political issue. and due to my limited knowledge(and not because i know the answer and am not telling because i have disease in my heart, in case that thought crosses a readers mind), i can't give you an answer for the question about caliphate.

You meant to say that Prophet PBUHHP gave up his duty while he was in place and in charge and allowed Abu Bakar to lead the prayer ? Never had any prophet abandoned his duties and asked others to stand in their place. It only happens only if Prophet PBUHHP goes away from the place and He assigns job to his assistant. And, it is a known fact acknowledged by all the sects that it happened during the time of Prophet Moses a.s who left Prophet Haroon a.s as his assistant in his absence and Prophet PBUHHP assigned such duty to Imam Ali a.s while Prophet PBUHHP went to Battle of Tabuk. This is a gross lie against Prophet that he allowed Abu Bakar to lead the prayer while Prophet was in the city. It is narrated in Hadith that when Prophet PBUHHP knew that Abu Bakar is leading prayer, he was unable to move but was carried to mosque and he pbuhhp through his stick removed Abu Bakar from his praying mat and stood to lead the prayer even he pbuhhp was so weak. Do not every say that Prophet asked Abu Bakar to lead prayer while he pbuhhp was there.

Due you think like monarchs that politics is separate from religion ? Religion is the first institution that gave people the knowledge as to how to grow socially and politically. You are wrong about this issue bro. It is the religion who has given you a criteria that how you should form societies and what should be its principles and the qualities of leadership and governance. The principles of honesty, ethics, morality, rule of law are all taught by religion. Did people brought Islam that they got right to appoint Abu Bakar as their leader ? It was Prophet PBUHHP who brought Islam and it was his duty to appoint his successor and not the People. Thus, people defected from Prophet and appointed Abu Bakar away in Saqifa and did not attend the prayer of Prophet PBUHHP. If it was a decision by Prophet PBUHHP then why did they missed his funeral prayer ? Lolz, they were not in his funeral prayer and also were not during his burial read those hadith in your books that your caliphs came and said that we will unearth the body of Prophet PBUHHP from grave and offer funeral prayer but Ali a.s sat over the feet of the grave with yellow clothes and an stick in anger. Bibi Ayesha said to people:"O! people do not 

“Fatima (ra) became angry with Abu Bakr and left him and never conversed with him again until she died” 
 Izalat ul Khifa, Volume 2 page 112

for further if you are interested please read http://www.shiapen.com/comprehensive/fadak/fatima-response-toconfiscation.html

https://www.al-islam.org/shiite-encyclopedia-ahlul-bayt-dilp-team/attacking-house-fatimah

22 hours ago, just a muslim said:

6. the 12 caliphs hadith isnt violated. and the 12 arent the shia imams. 

ahadith say that islam will prevail through them. we believe the first 5, including hasan AS, and umar bin abdul aziz, and imam mahdi, are 7 of those 12. the remaining 5 may have come. or they may come. Allah knows best. 

You seem confused bro, 5 of them you know but 7 of them you do not know. You are not aware of your Imams ? It seems that those 7 disappeared or did not exist and therefore your answer lacks a condition that Islam will prevail due to them. So, if you are unaware of them, then it means that such 7 people have not rendered any services for Islam that is why they are unknown otherwise they would have been known to you. The absence of such 7 people in your mind leads to us that you have misinterpreted the Hadith.

Now, the question is how to logically explain this Hadith. Let us see this hadith, according to the teachings of Quran. Quran says in Surah Baqarah that when people of Bani Israel asked for a King. Allah AWj appointed for them Talut a.s due to two qualities, knowledge and courage..... These both things were absent in first three Caliphs except Imam Ali a.s and later Caliphs as it is known in the history that Ali a.s was the one who was brave soldier and exceeded to all of the three caliphs in all battles and also in knowledge, because it is written in various narrations that when ever Jewish and Christians came to ask questions from these Caliphs of yours, they sought help of Imam Ali a.s. And umer went on saying: "If Ali were not born, Umer would have died". So, both the above qualities prove first three Caliphs to be invalid for Caliphate. About Usman, it is said that he gave away his control to Marwan and many problems were created and he sought help of Imam Ali a.s and Usman repented. It is also in Quran that Allah says: "Do not follow a sinner or an ungrateful person". So, Usman's repentance showed that he was a sinner. and therefore he was invalid for caliphate as well. About Imam Hasan a.s, he was courageous and never sought anyone's help in doing decisions and it showed that he was real Imam. About Umer bin Abdul Aziz, he was also not infallible and was a normal person and one of the condition for Imamte is infallibility which I have already explained so you are wrong about it as well. 

The proof that 12 Imams are from Family of Prophet PBUHHP is from the witnesses of all scholars, every sunni scholar in the time from Imam Ali a.s till Imam Hasan al askari, did not challenge them in term of knowledge and courage. They all admitted their excellence. The founder of Fiqh Hanafiyah, himself learn from Imam Muhammad al Baqir a.s and Imam Jafar al Sadiq a.s and acknowledged that they were superior in knowledge. So, if whole Ummah is witness over their excellence then it is logical to accept their excellence. 

Another great example of their being Imam is that all Caliphs in history were always keeping them in house arrests or under great surveillance, if they were not real Imams why were caliphs afraid of them ? It means that they knew that they were real Imams and it may not happen that like Hussain a.s they stand in revolt to ask for their right to Caliphate and that is why they tried to pursue Imam Mehdi a.s but with the Aid of Allah AWJ he disappeared. 

What else is left ? 

 

 

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18 hours ago, Sindbad05 said:

What if Umer himself confessed that it was "Bidah" which was not in the life of Prophet PBUHHP. There are nawafil prayers in Ramadan but they are to be performed individually and not collectively behind a reciter. Look at this narration in Sahih Bukhari from Umer himself:

Imam al-Bukhari narrates from ‘Abdullah ibn ‘Abd al-Qari, “In one of the nights of the month of Ramadan, I went to the masjid with Umar ibn al-Khattab. We saw the people in scattered groups, with individuals praying by themselves. Others were praying with a group praying behind them. Umar looked at me and said, ‘In my opinion, if I can bring all these people together behind one who recites, then it would be better.’ So, he gathered them and made ‘Ubay ibn Ka‘ab lead them in prayers. I went with him another night to the masjid, and saw people all praying together behind a person reciting. Umar looked at them and said, Ni‘mat al-bid‘ah hadhihi (‘This is a good innovation’).’”48

i know what Umar RA said. i say, he was incorrect to use the word bidah here. as it does not satisfy the definition of bidah. so, judging by that, we deduce that Umar RA meant it as a literal, lughwi sense, not in a sharai bidah. 

18 hours ago, Sindbad05 said:

The followers of "Muhammad and ali Muhammad" are quite certain that this verse descended about the wilayah (regency) of Ali on the day of Ghadir Khum, and the traditions in our records on the subject are numerous and consecutively transmitted through the Imams of the holy posterity of the Holy Prophet, whose reporting is enough for us, and should also be so for the Muslims, because they alone are the truthful (sadiqin) as per verse 119 of al Tawbah (refer to Hafiz Abu Nu-aym; Muwaffaq ibn Ahmad; and Ibn Hajar in his Sawa-iq al Muhriqah, chap. 11, p. 90).

 

Ibn abi Hatim quotes Abu Sa-id Khudri and Antara; Ibn Marduwayh quotes Abdullah bin Masud and Abu Sa-id Khudri; Ibn Asakir quotes Abu Said Khudri; Abu Bakr Shirazi, Muhammad bin Talha Qarshi and Sayyid Ali al Hamdani quote Abdullah bin Abbas; Nizamuddin Nayshapuri quotes Abdullah bin Abbas, Abu Sa-id Khudri and Bara bin Azib, to say that this verse was revealed about the wilayah of Ali ibn abi Talib; and Sabbagh Maliki in Fusul al Muhimma; Badruddin Ayni in Umdatul Qari, Muhaddith Shirazi in Kitab al Arba-in; Shahabuddin Ahmad in Tawdih al Dala-il; and Mu-tamad Khan Badakhshani in Miftah al Nijat also confirm it.

 

Hafiz Abu Bakr bin Marduwayh in Manaqib quotes Abdullah bin Masud that during the life time of the Holy Prophet they used to recite this verse with Inna Aliyyan Mawla al mu-minin (Ali is the master of the faithful).

 

The shortest narration of the event of Ghadir is given below:

 

While returning from his last hajj, in 10 Hijra, the Holy Prophet, alongwith the huge caravan of nearly one hundred thousand Muslims, made a halt at Ghadir Khum, a midway stop between Makka and Madina.

 

He had received the following verse from Allah:

 

O Our Messenger! Deliver what has been sent down unto you from your Lord; and if you do not, then you have not delivered His Message; and surely Allah will protect you from men."

(MA-IDAH: 67)

 

The Holy Prophet mounted a tall pulpit and delivered a long sermon, recounting his services towards the fulfilment of his mission as the messenger of Allah. He asked the audience whether he had conveyed to them the commands of Allah, enumerating them one after another.

 

The huge gathering, in one voice, said "yes". "Do I wield authority over your souls more than you do?" He asked.

 

"Certainly it is so, O Messenger of Allah" . They replied.

 

Then he asked Ali to come up. He held him in both his hands, raised him high, so much that the whole assembly of men and women saw him clearly.

 

He again addressed them:

 

"O men and women! Allah is my Mawla (Lord-Master). I am the mawla of the faithfuls. I have a clear authority over their souls, And of whomsoever I am the mawla (this) Ali is his mawla. O Allah! Love him who loves Ali, hate him who hates Ali."

 

At the end of this declaration the following verse was revealed:

 

"This day I have perfected for you, your religion, and have completed my favour on you, and have chosen for you Islam, as religion."(MA-IDAH: 3)

in all this, i dont see a single reference to a hadith. by reference, i mean the name of the book which has the hadith, and the hadith number at least, and maybe either the volume or page number.

18 hours ago, Sindbad05 said:

You meant to say that Prophet PBUHHP gave up his duty while he was in place and in charge and allowed Abu Bakar to lead the prayer ? Never had any prophet abandoned his duties and asked others to stand in their place. It only happens only if Prophet PBUHHP goes away from the place and He assigns job to his assistant. And, it is a known fact acknowledged by all the sects that it happened during the time of Prophet Moses a.s who left Prophet Haroon a.s as his assistant in his absence and Prophet PBUHHP assigned such duty to Imam Ali a.s while Prophet PBUHHP went to Battle of Tabuk. This is a gross lie against Prophet that he allowed Abu Bakar to lead the prayer while Prophet was in the city. It is narrated in Hadith that when Prophet PBUHHP knew that Abu Bakar is leading prayer, he was unable to move but was carried to mosque and he pbuhhp through his stick removed Abu Bakar from his praying mat and stood to lead the prayer even he pbuhhp was so weak. Do not every say that Prophet asked Abu Bakar to lead prayer while he pbuhhp was there.

Due you think like monarchs that politics is separate from religion ? Religion is the first institution that gave people the knowledge as to how to grow socially and politically. You are wrong about this issue bro. It is the religion who has given you a criteria that how you should form societies and what should be its principles and the qualities of leadership and governance. The principles of honesty, ethics, morality, rule of law are all taught by religion. Did people brought Islam that they got right to appoint Abu Bakar as their leader ? It was Prophet PBUHHP who brought Islam and it was his duty to appoint his successor and not the People. Thus, people defected from Prophet and appointed Abu Bakar away in Saqifa and did not attend the prayer of Prophet PBUHHP. If it was a decision by Prophet PBUHHP then why did they missed his funeral prayer ? Lolz, they were not in his funeral prayer and also were not during his burial read those hadith in your books that your caliphs came and said that we will unearth the body of Prophet PBUHHP from grave and offer funeral prayer but Ali a.s sat over the feet of the grave with yellow clothes and an stick in anger. Bibi Ayesha said to people:"O! people do not 

“Fatima (ra) became angry with Abu Bakr and left him and never conversed with him again until she died” 
 Izalat ul Khifa, Volume 2 page 112

for further if you are interested please read http://www.shiapen.com/comprehensive/fadak/fatima-response-toconfiscation.html

https://www.al-islam.org/shiite-encyclopedia-ahlul-bayt-dilp-team/attacking-house-fatimah

i am gonna answer you with ahadith. authentic ones. 

https://sunnah.com/nasai/21/14:

It was narrated that Anas said:
"The last time I saw the Messenger of Allah, he drew back the curtain when the people were in rows behind Abu Bakr, may Allah be pleased with him. Abu Bakr wanted to step back, but he gestured to them to stay as they were, and let the curtain drop. He died at the end of that day, and that was a Monday."
 
 
the text is similar in all these. abu bakr RA wanted to step back, but the prophet pbuh gestured him to keep leading. but Abu bakr still stepped back because he didnt find it fitting to lead while the prophet pbuh was behind him in congregation. 
 
as for everything you said about caliphate and the stuff about digging grave, please dont talk about things from yourself. either quote ahadith or quran with references, or do not say anything at all. because only those two things constitute proof. nothing else, not historical accounts. not stories. not opinions of scholars. only quran and hadith. so, if you can prove any of your claims from these two, bring them forth. otherwise stay quiet. 
your reference of izalat ul khifa is a historical reference, without any hadith. if you bring i historical account to back up your point of view, i will bring 10 to back up my view. so, it is useless to go to historical accounts. bring me a hadith. 
 
18 hours ago, Sindbad05 said:

You seem confused bro, 5 of them you know but 7 of them you do not know. You are not aware of your Imams ? It seems that those 7 disappeared or did not exist and therefore your answer lacks a condition that Islam will prevail due to them. So, if you are unaware of them, then it means that such 7 people have not rendered any services for Islam that is why they are unknown otherwise they would have been known to you. The absence of such 7 people in your mind leads to us that you have misinterpreted the Hadith.

Now, the question is how to logically explain this Hadith. Let us see this hadith, according to the teachings of Quran. Quran says in Surah Baqarah that when people of Bani Israel asked for a King. Allah AWj appointed for them Talut a.s due to two qualities, knowledge and courage..... These both things were absent in first three Caliphs except Imam Ali a.s and later Caliphs as it is known in the history that Ali a.s was the one who was brave soldier and exceeded to all of the three caliphs in all battles and also in knowledge, because it is written in various narrations that when ever Jewish and Christians came to ask questions from these Caliphs of yours, they sought help of Imam Ali a.s. And umer went on saying: "If Ali were not born, Umer would have died". So, both the above qualities prove first three Caliphs to be invalid for Caliphate. About Usman, it is said that he gave away his control to Marwan and many problems were created and he sought help of Imam Ali a.s and Usman repented. It is also in Quran that Allah says: "Do not follow a sinner or an ungrateful person". So, Usman's repentance showed that he was a sinner. and therefore he was invalid for caliphate as well. About Imam Hasan a.s, he was courageous and never sought anyone's help in doing decisions and it showed that he was real Imam. About Umer bin Abdul Aziz, he was also not infallible and was a normal person and one of the condition for Imamte is infallibility which I have already explained so you are wrong about it as well. 

you are the one who is confused. i said we know 7, not 5. 

secondly, we dont have to know them. if we were supposed to know them, the prophet pbuh would have told us. 

thirdly, all your claims are again your own opinions without any reference to hadith. i can bring counter opinions. so, as the quran says, when we disagree, turn back to Allah and the messenger. so, bring a verse or a hadith. nothing else works.

 

18 hours ago, Sindbad05 said:

The proof that 12 Imams are from Family of Prophet PBUHHP is from the witnesses of all scholars, every sunni scholar in the time from Imam Ali a.s till Imam Hasan al askari, did not challenge them in term of knowledge and courage. They all admitted their excellence. The founder of Fiqh Hanafiyah, himself learn from Imam Muhammad al Baqir a.s and Imam Jafar al Sadiq a.s and acknowledged that they were superior in knowledge. So, if whole Ummah is witness over their excellence then it is logical to accept their excellence. 

Another great example of their being Imam is that all Caliphs in history were always keeping them in house arrests or under great surveillance, if they were not real Imams why were caliphs afraid of them ? It means that they knew that they were real Imams and it may not happen that like Hussain a.s they stand in revolt to ask for their right to Caliphate and that is why they tried to pursue Imam Mehdi a.s but with the Aid of Allah AWJ he disappeared. 

you call this proof? did islam prevail under the 12 imams? no. also, answer this. if all 12 of them were going to be his progeny, family, the ahadith would have said that the 12 imams would be from my family. but the ahadith say they will be from quraish.

suppose i live in pakistan. my family also lives in pakistan. if i wanted to tell where my family were, i would not say Asia, i would say pakistan. it wouldnt make sense to explain using a very general term when in reality the truth was very specific.

i will only respond to a claim if you back it up with evidence. and the only thing that counts as evidence is the quran and the authentic ahadith.

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On 9/19/2017 at 7:01 AM, just a muslim said:

as for the quranic verser being eaten, let me first correct you. that hadith is not authentic.

secondly, EVEN IF the hadith was correct, lets see what it would imply. verses are not something physical. pages on which verses are written are a physical thing. those pages being eaten by a sheet does not mean that the quran was lost, it remained in the memory of the companions. 

when you want to dispose of an old mushaf, what do you do? we either burn it or drown it in the sea. doesnt mean we are destroying the quran. we are only disposing of the mushaf which doesnt affect the quran in any way.

 

i dont know who claimed Allah has a body. nobody except for one deviated sect as far as my knowledge goes.

 

as for the sitting on the throne, we do not say sitting. we say mustawi, as the verb in the quran say "istawa 'ala al-'Arsh."

we also have a hadith where basically a slave woman declared her imaan by pointing towards the sky in answer to the question of where Allah is. another logical reason for this is that Allah swt always says that he sent down revelation and uses the same basic verb of sending down pretty much everywhere, which indicates that Allah is somewhere above. 

as for those ayaat which indicate Him being everywhere, we look at them in light of the other ayaat and say that these mean Allah's sight, hearing, knowledge and other things when it says that he is very near to the believer or that two people are never alone but Allah is the third and so on.

 

as for the quran having seven different ways to read, i myself have not understood that issue properly. but just to give you some information, there are two separate things. one is qira'at and the other is ahruf. i have a book by yasir qadhi and another by a different scholar about this very issue and havent yet read them. but will read them inshaAllah as soon as i get time. if you want, i can refer you to them and you can read the 2 chapters about qiraat and ahruf directly. 

If you say that Allah is somewhere above then you clearly Limited him. May Allah save us from being ignorant.

 

The word "Nuzool" Sent down doesn't means exactly what you are trying to describe. Well its better if you refer to some good Tafseers which describe what Nuzool means.

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19 hours ago, just a muslim said:

i know what Umar RA said. i say, he was incorrect to use the word bidah here. as it does not satisfy the definition of bidah. so, judging by that, we deduce that Umar RA meant it as a literal, lughwi sense, not in a sharai bidah. 

in all this, i dont see a single reference to a hadith. by reference, i mean the name of the book which has the hadith, and the hadith number at least, and maybe either the volume or page number.

i am gonna answer you with ahadith. authentic ones. 

https://sunnah.com/nasai/21/14:

It was narrated that Anas said:
"The last time I saw the Messenger of Allah, he drew back the curtain when the people were in rows behind Abu Bakr, may Allah be pleased with him. Abu Bakr wanted to step back, but he gestured to them to stay as they were, and let the curtain drop. He died at the end of that day, and that was a Monday."
 
 
the text is similar in all these. abu bakr RA wanted to step back, but the prophet pbuh gestured him to keep leading. but Abu bakr still stepped back because he didnt find it fitting to lead while the prophet pbuh was behind him in congregation. 
 
as for everything you said about caliphate and the stuff about digging grave, please dont talk about things from yourself. either quote ahadith or quran with references, or do not say anything at all. because only those two things constitute proof. nothing else, not historical accounts. not stories. not opinions of scholars. only quran and hadith. so, if you can prove any of your claims from these two, bring them forth. otherwise stay quiet. 
your reference of izalat ul khifa is a historical reference, without any hadith. if you bring i historical account to back up your point of view, i will bring 10 to back up my view. so, it is useless to go to historical accounts. bring me a hadith. 
 

you are the one who is confused. i said we know 7, not 5. 

secondly, we dont have to know them. if we were supposed to know them, the prophet pbuh would have told us. 

thirdly, all your claims are again your own opinions without any reference to hadith. i can bring counter opinions. so, as the quran says, when we disagree, turn back to Allah and the messenger. so, bring a verse or a hadith. nothing else works.

 

you call this proof? did islam prevail under the 12 imams? no. also, answer this. if all 12 of them were going to be his progeny, family, the ahadith would have said that the 12 imams would be from my family. but the ahadith say they will be from quraish.

suppose i live in pakistan. my family also lives in pakistan. if i wanted to tell where my family were, i would not say Asia, i would say pakistan. it wouldnt make sense to explain using a very general term when in reality the truth was very specific.

i will only respond to a claim if you back it up with evidence. and the only thing that counts as evidence is the quran and the authentic ahadith.

For your 12 caliph problem bro, refer to this topic. Completely explained that the 12 Caliphs were from RasoolAllah's Progeny (Particularly Bibi Fatima(a.s)).

 

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19 hours ago, just a muslim said:

i know what Umar RA said. i say, he was incorrect to use the word bidah here. as it does not satisfy the definition of bidah. so, judging by that, we deduce that Umar RA meant it as a literal, lughwi sense, not in a sharai bidah. 

If you know better than umer, then why was he a caliph lolz. you know better than him bro. Secondly, it is apparent from the case that it was not a lughaat but a new practice which did not exist at the time of Prophet PBUHHP, hence an innovation. The evidence itself rejects your interpretation brother. 

20 hours ago, just a muslim said:

in all this, i dont see a single reference to a hadith. by reference, i mean the name of the book which has the hadith, and the hadith number at least, and maybe either the volume or page number.

Did you read the following references ? As mentioned by this following paragraph, you can find numerous references from the books on Ghadir and narrations about it. This is a commentary by an Ayotullah not by me, so what he wrote has been found from books. However, in order to repel your doubts about this please read the following excerpt which I am pasting with the source al-islam.org

20 hours ago, just a muslim said:

The followers of "Muhammad and ali Muhammad" are quite certain that this verse descended about the wilayah (regency) of Ali on the day of Ghadir Khum, and the traditions in our records on the subject are numerous and consecutively transmitted through the Imams of the holy posterity of the Holy Prophet, whose reporting is enough for us, and should also be so for the Muslims, because they alone are the truthful (sadiqin) as per verse 119 of al Tawbah (refer to Hafiz Abu Nu-aym; Muwaffaq ibn Ahmad; and Ibn Hajar in his Sawa-iq al Muhriqah, chap. 11, p. 90).

The Forbidden Meat

In the first place, the unusual situation of the Verse jumps to the mind. According to reports and interpretation of the Holy Qur’an, the Verse was revealed during the Farewell Hajj as an independent Verse; yet, it is now a part of a Verse concerning the forbidden meat. If this part is removed, the meaning of the whole Verse will not change. Why has the Verse been situated in this place? Was it its original place according to the revelation or did one of the Sahabah choose this place for it out of personal view?

First of all, we, the Shi`ah, are too submissive to Almighty Allah to say that any sort of distortion has ever occurred to the Holy Qur’an. Yet, we have put such a question hoping for an answer. Perhaps, those who collected the Holy Qur’an missed out the correct position of the Verse and, instead of putting it in the end of Surah of al-Ma`idah, they put it in this position. If the Verse comes after the rulings of the meat, it may be acceptable; but to be in the middle of the rulings is rather unsatisfactory! Al-Haythami, in al-Durr al-Manthur 2/257-9, has narrated on the authority of Ibn Jarir that al-Saddi said that the Verse of Ikmal al-Din was revealed on the day of `Arafat and was the sealing of the rulings.

The Ahl al-Bayt and the Verse of Ikmal al-Din

The Ahl al-Bayt have confirmed that the Verse was revealed in al-Juhafah on Thursday, the eighteenth of Dhu’l-Hijjah when the Holy Prophet (S) was in his way back from the Farewell Hajj. The following narration is quoted from al-Kulayni’s al-Kafi 1/289:
It has been narrated on the authority of `Ali ibn Ibrahim on the authority of Salih ibn al-Sindi on the authority of Ja`far ibn Bashir on the authority of Harun ibn Kharijah on the authority of Abu-Basir that a man, once, asked Imam al-Baqir whether leadership of Imam `Ali was a personal opinion or was it divinely commissioned. The Imam answered, ‘The Holy Prophet (S) has been too reverent to declare a thing without the command of Almighty Allah. Like the obligatory rituals of prayer, Zakat, fasting and Hajj, the leadership of Imam `Ali was an obligatory precept that Almighty Allah has issued.

In 1/198 of the same book, we read the following narration:
The following has been narrated on the authority of `Abd al-`Aziz ibn Muslim:
In the Masjid of Marw, people, discussing the Imamate, referred to the big variance of people’s opinions in this regard. I therefore visited Imam al-Rida (a.s.) and informed him about the question. He smiled and said to me:
`Abd al-`Aziz: People are indeed ignorant about the religion. Almighty Allah would not cause His Prophet (S) to die unless He would perfect the religion. He revealed to him the Holy Qur’an in which there is the explanation of everything and the manifestation of what is lawful, unlawful, the doctrinal provisions, the rulings and everything that people may need. In this regard, He says, ‘Nothing is left without a mention in the Book. 6/38’
During the Farewell Hajj, which took place in the last days of the Holy Prophet (S)’s lifetime, Almighty Allah revealed to him saying, ‘This day have I perfected your religion, completed My favors to you and have chosen Islam as a religion. 6:3’
Imamate has been a part of the perfection of the religion. The Holy Prophet (S) did not depart this world before he had manifested to the Ummah the points of their religion, showed them the right courses that they should take, situated them on the right path and assigned Imam `Ali (a.s.) as leader and Imam for them. As a matter of fact, he did not leave anything without thorough manifestation. Anyone who claims that Allah has not perfected His religion is in fact denying the Holy Qur’an, and to deny the Holy Qur’an is a sort of atheism.
Do people acknowledge the true standing of Imamate and its position in the Ummah so that they may be rightful to choose for themselves?
Almighty Allah has given Prophet Abraham Imamate as a third rank after Prophethood and intimacy and as a virtue by which He conferred honor upon him and praised him. “When his Lord tested Abraham's faith, (by His words) and he satisfied the test, He said, ‘I am appointing you as the Imam of mankind.’ Abraham asked, ‘Will this Imamate also continue through my descendants?’ The Lord replied, ‘The unjust do not have the right to exercise My authority. 2:124” Prophet Abraham was highly delighted for this rank; therefore, he hoped it would be passed to his descendants.
This Verse, however, cancels the Imamate of any unjust individual up to the Day of Resurrection and dedicates it to the choice ones exclusively. Then Almighty Allah has honored Imamate when He has decided it to be for the offspring of the Immaculate ones. He says,

“We granted him (Abraham) Isaac and Jacob as a gift and helped both of them to become righteous people. We appointed them as Imams to guide the people through Our command and sent them revelation to strive for good deeds, worship their Lord and pay religious tax. Both of them were Our worshipping servants. 21:73-4”

The successive generations kept on receiving the Imamate in inheritance until it reached Prophet Muhammad (S). In this regard, Almighty Allah says,

“The nearest people to Abraham, among mankind, are those who followed him, this Prophet (Muhammad) and the true believers. 3:68”

In this manner, the Imamate has become exclusive for them.
Then the Holy Prophet (S) gave it to Imam `Ali (a.s.) to be successive in his choice offspring upon whom Allah has conferred knowledge and faith. This is indicated in Almighty Allah’s saying,

“Those who have received knowledge and have faith will say, ‘By the decree of Allah, you have remained for the exact period which was mentioned in the Book of Almighty Allah about the Day of Resurrection. This is the Day of Resurrection, but you did not know. 30:56

This Verse shows the decree of Almighty Allah regarding the question of Imamate that will persist in the Holy Prophet (S)’s progeny until the Day of Resurrection, since no Prophet should come after Muhammad (S).

After all, how can those ignorant people choose for Imamate out of their opinions?12

Sunni Opinion Agreeing to the Ahl al-Bayt’s

In Sunni reference books of Hadith, one can find tens of narrations, some of which are ‘first class’ according to their criteria in classifying the Hadith, regarding the declaration of Ghadir. Al-Tabari has compiled the texts and ways of narrating the declaration of Ghadir in a two-volume book entitled ‘al-Wilayah.’ Ibn `Asakir and many others have also recorded similar reports all of which refer to the Holy Prophet (S)’s raising Imam `Ali’s hand and conveying the Lord’s commandment of the loyalty to his Imamate.

Nevertheless, a number of fanatic Sunnis have criticized al-Tabari for that work since they anticipated that Shi`ah would constitute it as evidence and would refer to it during argument. Most of such narrations have confirmed that the Verse of Ikmal al-Din was revealed on that day in Ghadir Khumm just after the Holy Prophet (S)’s declaration of the divinely commissioned leadership of Imam `Ali (a.s.). Unfortunately, most of Sunni scholars who admit the reports of Ghadir have rejected the Verse’s having been revealed on that occasion and, instead, admitted the sayings of `Umar and Muawiyah claiming its revelation on the day of `Arafat.

On the other hand, many Shiite scholars have recorded the narrations respecting the incident of Ghadir, such as al-Naqawi al-Hindi: `Abaqat al-Anwar, Shaykh al-Amini: al-Ghadir, Sayyid al-Mar`ashi: Sharh Ihqaq al-Haq and Sayyid al-Milani: Nafahat al-Azhar. Shaykh al-Amini, al-Ghadir 1/230, has listed the Sunni reference books of Hadith who confirm that the Verse of Ikmal al-Din was revealed on that day in Ghadir after the Holy Prophet (S) had nominated Imam `Ali as the coming leader.

20 hours ago, just a muslim said:

i know what Umar RA said. i say, he was incorrect to use the word bidah here. as it does not satisfy the definition of bidah. so, judging by that, we deduce that Umar RA meant it as a literal, lughwi sense, not in a sharai bidah. 

in all this, i dont see a single reference to a hadith. by reference, i mean the name of the book which has the hadith, and the hadith number at least, and maybe either the volume or page number.

i am gonna answer you with ahadith. authentic ones. 

https://sunnah.com/nasai/21/14:

It was narrated that Anas said:
"The last time I saw the Messenger of Allah, he drew back the curtain when the people were in rows behind Abu Bakr, may Allah be pleased with him. Abu Bakr wanted to step back, but he gestured to them to stay as they were, and let the curtain drop. He died at the end of that day, and that was a Monday."
 
 
the text is similar in all these. abu bakr RA wanted to step back, but the prophet pbuh gestured him to keep leading. but Abu bakr still stepped back because he didnt find it fitting to lead while the prophet pbuh was behind him in congregation. 
 
as for everything you said about caliphate and the stuff about digging grave, please dont talk about things from yourself. either quote ahadith or quran with references, or do not say anything at all. because only those two things constitute proof. nothing else, not historical accounts. not stories. not opinions of scholars. only quran and hadith. so, if you can prove any of your claims from these two, bring them forth. otherwise stay quiet. 
your reference of izalat ul khifa is a historical reference, without any hadith. if you bring i historical account to back up your point of view, i will bring 10 to back up my view. so, it is useless to go to historical accounts. bring me a hadith. 
 

you are the one who is confused. i said we know 7, not 5. 

secondly, we dont have to know them. if we were supposed to know them, the prophet pbuh would have told us. 

thirdly, all your claims are again your own opinions without any reference to hadith. i can bring counter opinions. so, as the quran says, when we disagree, turn back to Allah and the messenger. so, bring a verse or a hadith. nothing else works.

 

you call this proof? did islam prevail under the 12 imams? no. also, answer this. if all 12 of them were going to be his progeny, family, the ahadith would have said that the 12 imams would be from my family. but the ahadith say they will be from quraish.

suppose i live in pakistan. my family also lives in pakistan. if i wanted to tell where my family were, i would not say Asia, i would say pakistan. it wouldnt make sense to explain using a very general term when in reality the truth was very specific.

i will only respond to a claim if you back it up with evidence. and the only thing that counts as evidence is the quran and the authentic ahadith.

Islam is living today only because of 12 Imams even today, if there is problem which we do not find in the sayings of Imam Ali a.s, we find it from the sayings of Imam Hasan al Askari a.s, the eleventh Imam and If Imam Hasan al Askari did not mention something, Imam al Mehdi a.s help his ulemas and people from behind the veil. This Islam which is living is due to our 12 Imams and not your 3 Caliphs. The reason of this is that those 3 Caliphs were the cause of turmoil and not welfare, if you read history, you would know that It was Abu Bakar who sowed the seeds of Karbala. He appointed Yazid ibn Abu Sufyan as the governor of Syria and then after death of Yazid bin Abu Sufyan his brother Muawiya rose to the ruler-ship. Neither Umer nor Usman relieved him from his duties, and this Muwaviya became the source of Usman's murder that when Usman asked him to send his troops, Muawiya said his troops are busy and whenever any Caravan from Medina passed, Muawiya came to ask them if Usman was alive or dead so that his thorn to the way of Caliphate be removed and he may rose to the throne of Medina. 

Secondly, if you contend on the issue of Caliphate to be from Quraish. And you hold that Umer and Abu Bakar and Usman were from Quraish, then I would like to tell you that there is whole Quraish tribe and not all can be Caliphs. Now, to decide who is Caliph among Quraish, there has to be another Mechanism and that is from Quran.

You would yourself agree that the Ayah-e-Tatheer, which calls Ahlebait to be purified and absolute purification was revealed for Prophet PBUHHP, Ali, Fatima, Hasan and Hussain a.s and remaining Imams from this house. It is narrated that Bibi Umm-e-Salima asked if she was among Ahlebait a.s, Prophet PBUHHP said: "You are a pious lady but not among Ahlebait". Another account is given by Bibi Ayesha where she said that she was denied as Ahlebait from the Prophet. 

So, the above verse was for those Quraish which were Muhammad, Ali, Fatima, Hasan and Hussain and remaining Imams. And Abu Bakar, Umer and Usman were not included in it. So, the people who are entitled to infallible while Abu Bakar, Umer, Usman did many sins including above one of Syria and they are entitled to the verse: "Do not follow a sinner or an ungrateful person". 

So, it is clear as to who should be followed among Quraish as Caliph.

Another verse was of Hazrat Talut a.s and criteria was knowledge and courage. And you would know that only our 12 Imams are fit for this and they claimed such things through their actions. And all of your caliphs fail to meet this criteria. So, things are pretty clear bro. 

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20 hours ago, just a muslim said:

i will only respond to a claim if you back it up with evidence. and the only thing that counts as evidence is the quran and the authentic ahadith.

I just provide evidence from Quran, Hadith and history not my words bro. I hope you consider it.

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On ‎19‎/‎09‎/‎2017 at 3:31 AM, just a muslim said:

as for the quranic verser being eaten, let me first correct you. that hadith is not authentic.

secondly, EVEN IF the hadith was correct, lets see what it would imply. verses are not something physical. pages on which verses are written are a physical thing. those pages being eaten by a sheet does not mean that the quran was lost, it remained in the memory of the companions. 

when you want to dispose of an old mushaf, what do you do? we either burn it or drown it in the sea. doesnt mean we are destroying the quran. we are only disposing of the mushaf which doesnt affect the quran in any way.

 

i dont know who claimed Allah has a body. nobody except for one deviated sect as far as my knowledge goes.

 

as for the sitting on the throne, we do not say sitting. we say mustawi, as the verb in the quran say "istawa 'ala al-'Arsh."

we also have a hadith where basically a slave woman declared her imaan by pointing towards the sky in answer to the question of where Allah is. another logical reason for this is that Allah swt always says that he sent down revelation and uses the same basic verb of sending down pretty much everywhere, which indicates that Allah is somewhere above. 

as for those ayaat which indicate Him being everywhere, we look at them in light of the other ayaat and say that these mean Allah's sight, hearing, knowledge and other things when it says that he is very near to the believer or that two people are never alone but Allah is the third and so on.

 

as for the quran having seven different ways to read, i myself have not understood that issue properly. but just to give you some information, there are two separate things. one is qira'at and the other is ahruf. i have a book by yasir qadhi and another by a different scholar about this very issue and havent yet read them. but will read them inshaAllah as soon as i get time. if you want, i can refer you to them and you can read the 2 chapters about qiraat and ahruf directly. 

Shias do NOT believe in the Sunni doctrine that there once were verses which are not present anymore in the Quran but their ruling still applies. i.e. the verse of stoning which we are talking about.

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3 hours ago, Jimmy Boy said:

Shias do NOT believe in the Sunni doctrine that there once were verses which are not present anymore in the Quran but their ruling still applies. i.e. the verse of stoning which we are talking about.

who said we believe that? i already said that the hadith was not authentic.

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14 hours ago, Sindbad05 said:

If you know better than umer, then why was he a caliph lolz. you know better than him bro. Secondly, it is apparent from the case that it was not a lughaat but a new practice which did not exist at the time of Prophet PBUHHP, hence an innovation. The evidence itself rejects your interpretation brother.

1. if i know better than him, why has he a caliph? firstly, i dont know better than him. calling him incorrect doesnt make me more knowledgeable everywhere else. secondly, because i do not have the virtues he has? and because i am alive 1400 years after that? what kind of a question was that bro?

2. you are mistaken. it was not a new practice. we have ahadith which say that the prophet pbuh prayed in congregation for three nights in ramadan. i specifically said umar RA resumed the practice, not innovated it. hence, a lughwi meaning of the word bidat.

14 hours ago, Sindbad05 said:

Did you read the following references ? As mentioned by this following paragraph, you can find numerous references from the books on Ghadir and narrations about it. This is a commentary by an Ayotullah not by me, so what he wrote has been found from books. However, in order to repel your doubts about this please read the following excerpt which I am pasting with the source al-islam.org

The Forbidden Meat

In the first place, the unusual situation of the Verse jumps to the mind. According to reports and interpretation of the Holy Qur’an, the Verse was revealed during the Farewell Hajj as an independent Verse; yet, it is now a part of a Verse concerning the forbidden meat. If this part is removed, the meaning of the whole Verse will not change. Why has the Verse been situated in this place? Was it its original place according to the revelation or did one of the Sahabah choose this place for it out of personal view?

First of all, we, the Shi`ah, are too submissive to Almighty Allah to say that any sort of distortion has ever occurred to the Holy Qur’an. Yet, we have put such a question hoping for an answer. Perhaps, those who collected the Holy Qur’an missed out the correct position of the Verse and, instead of putting it in the end of Surah of al-Ma`idah, they put it in this position. If the Verse comes after the rulings of the meat, it may be acceptable; but to be in the middle of the rulings is rather unsatisfactory! Al-Haythami, in al-Durr al-Manthur 2/257-9, has narrated on the authority of Ibn Jarir that al-Saddi said that the Verse of Ikmal al-Din was revealed on the day of `Arafat and was the sealing of the rulings.

The Ahl al-Bayt and the Verse of Ikmal al-Din

The Ahl al-Bayt have confirmed that the Verse was revealed in al-Juhafah on Thursday, the eighteenth of Dhu’l-Hijjah when the Holy Prophet (S) was in his way back from the Farewell Hajj. The following narration is quoted from al-Kulayni’s al-Kafi 1/289:
It has been narrated on the authority of `Ali ibn Ibrahim on the authority of Salih ibn al-Sindi on the authority of Ja`far ibn Bashir on the authority of Harun ibn Kharijah on the authority of Abu-Basir that a man, once, asked Imam al-Baqir whether leadership of Imam `Ali was a personal opinion or was it divinely commissioned. The Imam answered, ‘The Holy Prophet (S) has been too reverent to declare a thing without the command of Almighty Allah. Like the obligatory rituals of prayer, Zakat, fasting and Hajj, the leadership of Imam `Ali was an obligatory precept that Almighty Allah has issued.

In 1/198 of the same book, we read the following narration:
The following has been narrated on the authority of `Abd al-`Aziz ibn Muslim:
In the Masjid of Marw, people, discussing the Imamate, referred to the big variance of people’s opinions in this regard. I therefore visited Imam al-Rida (a.s.) and informed him about the question. He smiled and said to me:
`Abd al-`Aziz: People are indeed ignorant about the religion. Almighty Allah would not cause His Prophet (S) to die unless He would perfect the religion. He revealed to him the Holy Qur’an in which there is the explanation of everything and the manifestation of what is lawful, unlawful, the doctrinal provisions, the rulings and everything that people may need. In this regard, He says, ‘Nothing is left without a mention in the Book. 6/38’
During the Farewell Hajj, which took place in the last days of the Holy Prophet (S)’s lifetime, Almighty Allah revealed to him saying, ‘This day have I perfected your religion, completed My favors to you and have chosen Islam as a religion. 6:3’
Imamate has been a part of the perfection of the religion. The Holy Prophet (S) did not depart this world before he had manifested to the Ummah the points of their religion, showed them the right courses that they should take, situated them on the right path and assigned Imam `Ali (a.s.) as leader and Imam for them. As a matter of fact, he did not leave anything without thorough manifestation. Anyone who claims that Allah has not perfected His religion is in fact denying the Holy Qur’an, and to deny the Holy Qur’an is a sort of atheism.
Do people acknowledge the true standing of Imamate and its position in the Ummah so that they may be rightful to choose for themselves?
Almighty Allah has given Prophet Abraham Imamate as a third rank after Prophethood and intimacy and as a virtue by which He conferred honor upon him and praised him. “When his Lord tested Abraham's faith, (by His words) and he satisfied the test, He said, ‘I am appointing you as the Imam of mankind.’ Abraham asked, ‘Will this Imamate also continue through my descendants?’ The Lord replied, ‘The unjust do not have the right to exercise My authority. 2:124” Prophet Abraham was highly delighted for this rank; therefore, he hoped it would be passed to his descendants.
This Verse, however, cancels the Imamate of any unjust individual up to the Day of Resurrection and dedicates it to the choice ones exclusively. Then Almighty Allah has honored Imamate when He has decided it to be for the offspring of the Immaculate ones. He says,

“We granted him (Abraham) Isaac and Jacob as a gift and helped both of them to become righteous people. We appointed them as Imams to guide the people through Our command and sent them revelation to strive for good deeds, worship their Lord and pay religious tax. Both of them were Our worshipping servants. 21:73-4”

The successive generations kept on receiving the Imamate in inheritance until it reached Prophet Muhammad (S). In this regard, Almighty Allah says,

“The nearest people to Abraham, among mankind, are those who followed him, this Prophet (Muhammad) and the true believers. 3:68”

In this manner, the Imamate has become exclusive for them.
Then the Holy Prophet (S) gave it to Imam `Ali (a.s.) to be successive in his choice offspring upon whom Allah has conferred knowledge and faith. This is indicated in Almighty Allah’s saying,

“Those who have received knowledge and have faith will say, ‘By the decree of Allah, you have remained for the exact period which was mentioned in the Book of Almighty Allah about the Day of Resurrection. This is the Day of Resurrection, but you did not know. 30:56

This Verse shows the decree of Almighty Allah regarding the question of Imamate that will persist in the Holy Prophet (S)’s progeny until the Day of Resurrection, since no Prophet should come after Muhammad (S).

After all, how can those ignorant people choose for Imamate out of their opinions?12

Sunni Opinion Agreeing to the Ahl al-Bayt’s

In Sunni reference books of Hadith, one can find tens of narrations, some of which are ‘first class’ according to their criteria in classifying the Hadith, regarding the declaration of Ghadir. Al-Tabari has compiled the texts and ways of narrating the declaration of Ghadir in a two-volume book entitled ‘al-Wilayah.’ Ibn `Asakir and many others have also recorded similar reports all of which refer to the Holy Prophet (S)’s raising Imam `Ali’s hand and conveying the Lord’s commandment of the loyalty to his Imamate.

Nevertheless, a number of fanatic Sunnis have criticized al-Tabari for that work since they anticipated that Shi`ah would constitute it as evidence and would refer to it during argument. Most of such narrations have confirmed that the Verse of Ikmal al-Din was revealed on that day in Ghadir Khumm just after the Holy Prophet (S)’s declaration of the divinely commissioned leadership of Imam `Ali (a.s.). Unfortunately, most of Sunni scholars who admit the reports of Ghadir have rejected the Verse’s having been revealed on that occasion and, instead, admitted the sayings of `Umar and Muawiyah claiming its revelation on the day of `Arafat.

On the other hand, many Shiite scholars have recorded the narrations respecting the incident of Ghadir, such as al-Naqawi al-Hindi: `Abaqat al-Anwar, Shaykh al-Amini: al-Ghadir, Sayyid al-Mar`ashi: Sharh Ihqaq al-Haq and Sayyid al-Milani: Nafahat al-Azhar. Shaykh al-Amini, al-Ghadir 1/230, has listed the Sunni reference books of Hadith who confirm that the Verse of Ikmal al-Din was revealed on that day in Ghadir after the Holy Prophet (S) had nominated Imam `Ali as the coming leader.

i told you that these are not references. i want a reference to a hadith number, not a book name. the only hadith you mentioned from al-kafi has nothing to do with ghadir e khumm or the ayah of takmeel being revealed at that time.

14 hours ago, Sindbad05 said:

Islam is living today only because of 12 Imams even today, if there is problem which we do not find in the sayings of Imam Ali a.s, we find it from the sayings of Imam Hasan al Askari a.s, the eleventh Imam and If Imam Hasan al Askari did not mention something, Imam al Mehdi a.s help his ulemas and people from behind the veil. This Islam which is living is due to our 12 Imams and not your 3 Caliphs. The reason of this is that those 3 Caliphs were the cause of turmoil and not welfare, if you read history, you would know that It was Abu Bakar who sowed the seeds of Karbala. He appointed Yazid ibn Abu Sufyan as the governor of Syria and then after death of Yazid bin Abu Sufyan his brother Muawiya rose to the ruler-ship. Neither Umer nor Usman relieved him from his duties, and this Muwaviya became the source of Usman's murder that when Usman asked him to send his troops, Muawiya said his troops are busy and whenever any Caravan from Medina passed, Muawiya came to ask them if Usman was alive or dead so that his thorn to the way of Caliphate be removed and he may rose to the throne of Medina. 

with all due respect, this is ignorance. i will tell you why. you say if there is a problem, you find the answer with the imams and ulema helped by imam mehdi. are you not aware that imam mehdi, according to shia belief, is not helping the ulema now? that was only in the minor disappearance.

the 3 caliphs were the cause of turmoil because abu bakr made yazid bin abu sufyan the governor of syria? well, in that case, the whole ummah was at fault because they chose abu bakr. in fact, abu bakr's mother was at fault who gave birth to him. in fact, his mother's mother, and her mother, and her mother,... all the way to Adam AS. so, by that logic, Adam AS is to be blamed for sowing the seeds of Karbala. and while at that, you can start blaming Allah as well, as it all happened because He decreed it. auzubillah. 

umar RA didnt change muawiya because umar died before muawiya's 4 year tenure could finish. Uthman RA didnt change muawiya because muawiya had gotten too powerful by then, AFAIK. besides, i am not defending muawiya's stance. we know from authentic ahadith that his rule was of kingship, not caliphate, and a bad kingship.

14 hours ago, Sindbad05 said:

You would yourself agree that the Ayah-e-Tatheer, which calls Ahlebait to be purified and absolute purification was revealed for Prophet PBUHHP, Ali, Fatima, Hasan and Hussain a.s and remaining Imams from this house. It is narrated that Bibi Umm-e-Salima asked if she was among Ahlebait a.s, Prophet PBUHHP said: "You are a pious lady but not among Ahlebait". Another account is given by Bibi Ayesha where she said that she was denied as Ahlebait from the Prophet. 

no. it wasnt revealed for them. it was revealed generally but the prophet pbuh recited it and made due to Allah with the ayah for the 5 of them.

all these claims are hearsay. i told you not to make claims without backing them up with proof. bring a hadith which says these things about umm e salma RA and Ayesha RA. you do know it is a major sin to lie upon the prophet pbuh. why would you be so careless to attribute things to him without checking it first?

also, the verse was about the 5, not the remaining imams. even if, EVEN IF, one was to accept it to mean as you say, it doesnt justify following the remaining imams.

14 hours ago, Sindbad05 said:

So, the above verse was for those Quraish which were Muhammad, Ali, Fatima, Hasan and Hussain and remaining Imams. And Abu Bakar, Umer and Usman were not included in it. So, the people who are entitled to infallible while Abu Bakar, Umer, Usman did many sins including above one of Syria and they are entitled to the verse: "Do not follow a sinner or an ungrateful person". 

NOT the remaining imams. i repeat. it was NOT for the remaining imams. 

this verse does not mean infallible. 

quote the verse.

14 hours ago, Sindbad05 said:

Another verse was of Hazrat Talut a.s and criteria was knowledge and courage. And you would know that only our 12 Imams are fit for this and they claimed such things through their actions. And all of your caliphs fail to meet this criteria. So, things are pretty clear bro. 

who is Talut?

these are all your opinions. islam has no value for your opinions. dont bring me subjective opinions. you are the one who thinks that the 12 imams were fit for this. someone else might not. bring objective evidence. quran and hadith. 

the issue of leadership is a political issue, not a religious one. 

 

 

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10 hours ago, just a muslim said:

1. if i know better than him, why has he a caliph? firstly, i dont know better than him. calling him incorrect doesnt make me more knowledgeable everywhere else. secondly, because i do not have the virtues he has? and because i am alive 1400 years after that? what kind of a question was that bro?

2. you are mistaken. it was not a new practice. we have ahadith which say that the prophet pbuh prayed in congregation for three nights in ramadan. i specifically said umar RA resumed the practice, not innovated it. hence, a lughwi meaning of the word bidat.

Bro, if your caliph is wrong then he is not a caliph bro because Caliph needs to be higher in knowledge and courage according to Quran thus Umer is invalid as Caliph as said by you. 

Secondly, Biddah is his words and not mine and you cannot say that he mean Sunnah because Sunnah and Biddah are two different terms, please do not argue on this matter bro, that looks illogical, it is clear what are the words. This is the point where I do not like to argue with Sunni brothers. 

10 hours ago, just a muslim said:

i told you that these are not references. i want a reference to a hadith number, not a book name. the only hadith you mentioned from al-kafi has nothing to do with ghadir e khumm or the ayah of takmeel being revealed at that time.

Bro, if you read in the commentary, Ayotullah Mehdi Poya says that it is confirmed by hadith from our infallible Imams that the verse of kamal-uddin was revealed for Ghadeer. Secondly, you read in Tabari which is a Sunni scholar who accepted this fact and that is not our scholar that is your scholar. Suppose, if I work hard for you and I bring forth hadith for you would you believe that ? If you believe that and then do not argue on that then I can work hard for you but otherwise why Should I waste my time ?

10 hours ago, just a muslim said:

with all due respect, this is ignorance. i will tell you why. you say if there is a problem, you find the answer with the imams and ulema helped by imam mehdi. are you not aware that imam mehdi, according to shia belief, is not helping the ulema now? that was only in the minor disappearance.

You have not read the Hadith which says that Imam Mehdi a.s helps his followers like a sun behind Clouds during his disappearance.

 

10 hours ago, just a muslim said:

the 3 caliphs were the cause of turmoil because abu bakr made yazid bin abu sufyan the governor of syria? well, in that case, the whole ummah was at fault because they chose abu bakr. in fact, abu bakr's mother was at fault who gave birth to him. in fact, his mother's mother, and her mother, and her mother,... all the way to Adam AS. so, by that logic, Adam AS is to be blamed for sowing the seeds of Karbala. and while at that, you can start blaming Allah as well, as it all happened because He decreed it. auzubillah. 

Did Abu Bakar's mother taught him to be disobedient to Prophet and sit on Khilafah and appoint people who Prophet disliked ? If yes, then his mother was also at fault. Every bad decision which Prophet disliked and cleared the passage for enemies of Islam is disloyalty to Islam. So, yes those all people who elected Abu Bakar were wrong for he did not have such credibility and all he did were bad decisions.

10 hours ago, just a muslim said:

also, the verse was about the 5, not the remaining imams. even if, EVEN IF, one was to accept it to mean as you say, it doesnt justify following the remaining imams.

which verse was about 5 ? There is no verse about 5 in Quran bro. There is a Hadith about 12 Imams and you have set a wrong criteria that people choose it, no, it is duty of Allah AWJ and Prophet PBUHHP to choose them and they set signs for them that we know. And your caliphs fail those criteria.

10 hours ago, just a muslim said:

NOT the remaining imams. i repeat. it was NOT for the remaining imams. 

this verse does not mean infallible. 

[Shakir 33:33] And stay in your houses and do not display your finery like the displaying of the ignorance of yore; and keep up prayer, and pay the poor-rate, and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House! and to purify you a (thorough) purifying.

Please read various Hadiths from Both Sunni and Shias that Our 12 Imams were called sons of Prophet due to this verse and this verse was revealed only for Ahlebait a.s that included Muhammad, Ali, Fatima, Hasan, Hussain and remaining Imams from house of Ahlebait a.s.

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10 hours ago, just a muslim said:

who is Talut?

these are all your opinions. islam has no value for your opinions. dont bring me subjective opinions. you are the one who thinks that the 12 imams were fit for this. someone else might not. bring objective evidence. quran and hadith. 

the issue of leadership is a political issue, not a religious one. 

Bro Talut was the pious person who was chosen as King by God before Prophet Dawud a.s, I am not purely speaking history bro. 

So, you think religion and politics are separate like previous kings and monrachs ? While God is the one who has chosen Prophets and formed governments based on Islam and showed political side of Islam as well. I am sorry but you just are talking and not providing any evidence where have you learn that Islam says us not to engage in honest political affairs ? 

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6 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

Bro, if your caliph is wrong then he is not a caliph bro because Caliph needs to be higher in knowledge and courage according to Quran thus Umer is invalid as Caliph as said by you. 

i said him being wrong in one matter doesnt make him wrong in every matter. me knowing something he doesnt know doesnt mean i know everything more than umar. that doesnt mean he is not higher in knowledge and courage in me or most of the people.

3 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

Secondly, Biddah is his words and not mine and you cannot say that he mean Sunnah because Sunnah and Biddah are two different terms, please do not argue on this matter bro, that looks illogical, it is clear what are the words. This is the point where I do not like to argue with Sunni brothers. 

since you like to play a word games, did you know imam Ali AS, in nahjul balagha, said to the people/muawiya that he is their imam just as abu bakr, umar and uthman were their imams. so why do they not accept him while they accepted the three of them. 

your entire case of tashaiyyo goes down the drain with that saying of Hz Ali. he himself says they were all imams just like him. so, you should be following them too. or do you mean to say that Ali RA didnt mean imam in the sharai sense, and meant it as a literal sense? do you know more than Ali? does that mean he was an invalid imam as said by YOU?

3 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

Bro, if you read in the commentary, Ayotullah Mehdi Poya says that it is confirmed by HADITH from our infallible Imams that the verse of kamal-uddin was revealed for Ghadeer. Secondly, you read in Tabari which is a Sunni scholar who accepted this fact and that is not our scholar that is your scholar. Suppose, if I work hard for you and I bring forth hadith for you would you believe that ? If you believe that and then do not argue on that then I can work hard for you but otherwise why Should I waste my time ?

islam doesnt care what a sunni or shia scholar said. 

i am asking for those direct HADITH, not the reference to a tafsir or a history book. 

the reason i am asking you for proof, is because you made a claim about the verse of takmeel being revealed on ghadir khumm. hence, you have to back your claim up. my accepting or rejecting it is completely irrelevant, because right now, you yourself have beliefs which have no basis. bring some basis for your belief, then we can discuss whether that is a valid basis or not.

3 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

You have not read the Hadith which says that Imam Mehdi a.s helps his followers like a sun behind Clouds during his disappearance.

yes, i havent. care to share with reference?

13 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

Did Abu Bakar's mother taught him to be disobedient to Prophet and sit on Khilafah and appoint people who Prophet disliked ? If yes, then his mother was also at fault. Every bad decision which Prophet disliked and cleared the passage for enemies of Islam is disloyalty to Islam. So, yes those all people who elected Abu Bakar were wrong for he did not have such credibility and all he did were bad decisions.

i believe this response is based on pre conceived notions as well. when did abu bakr disobey the prophet pbuh? i can bring you hadith where Ali RA disobeyed the prophet pbuh.

13 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

which verse was about 5 ? There is no verse about 5 in Quran bro. There is a Hadith about 12 Imams and you have set a wrong criteria that people choose it, no, it is duty of Allah AWJ and Prophet PBUHHP to choose them and they set signs for them that we know. And your caliphs fail those criteria.

ayat tatheer. 33:33. it was revealed for the wives but also applied on the 5, prophet himself, Ali, Fatima and hasan and hussain AS.

22 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

[Shakir 33:33] And stay in your houses and do not display your finery like the displaying of the ignorance of yore; and keep up prayer, and pay the poor-rate, and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House! and to purify you a (thorough) purifying.

Please read various Hadiths from Both Sunni and Shias that Our 12 Imams were called sons of Prophet due to this verse and this verse was revealed only for Ahlebait a.s that included Muhammad, Ali, Fatima, Hasan, Hussain and remaining Imams from house of Ahlebait a.s.

i have read various hadith from sunnis that this verse was revealed for the wives and the prophet pbuh applied it to the five mentioned above as well.

20 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

Bro Talut was the pious person who was chosen as King by God before Prophet Dawud a.s, I am not purely speaking history bro. 

So, you think religion and politics are separate like previous kings and monrachs ? While God is the one who has chosen Prophets and formed governments based on Islam and showed political side of Islam as well. I am sorry but you just are talking and not providing any evidence where have you learn that Islam says us not to engage in honest political affairs ? 

i dont know where you got that Talut story from. but thats besides the point.

i said leadership is a political matter. but i will not say anything else as i have no further knowledge on this.

 

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1 hour ago, just a muslim said:

i said him being wrong in one matter doesnt make him wrong in every matter. me knowing something he doesnt know doesnt mean i know everything more than umar. that doesnt mean he is not higher in knowledge and courage in me or most of the people.

Hence proved Umer was a sinner and I do not follow a sinner.

1 hour ago, just a muslim said:

since you like to play a word games, did you know imam Ali AS, in nahjul balagha, said to the people/muawiya that he is their imam just as abu bakr, umar and uthman were their imams. so why do they not accept him while they accepted the three of them. 

 

Imam Ali a.s used this as an argument that you have sought an oath of allegiance to me like you gave oath of allegiance to those before him and now since you have taken oath of allegiance to me so how could you go back and fight me. This was a question to Bibi Ayesha, Talha, Zubyar and Muwaviya who always thought that people elected Khalifa, Now, tell me was not according to Imam Ali a.s, Bibi Ayesha, Talha, Zubyar and Muwviya responsible for breaking their oath and fighting a just Khalifa according to them ? 

1 hour ago, just a muslim said:

i believe this response is based on pre conceived notions as well. when did abu bakr disobey the prophet pbuh? i can bring you hadith where Ali RA disobeyed the prophet pbuh.

Your narration about Ali will be a lie because Prophet pbuhhp said Ali is from me and I am from Ali. And Ali is face of God and Ali's zikr is Ibadah as narrated by Abu Bakar so such a person can not be liable to do such thing for which Allah says in Quran: "We have purified you a thorough purification". And, now that Quran is it's witness, your reports have no value bro.

While about Abu Bakar, there are clear evidence in history both in your books and ours that he snatched Fadak from Syeda Zahra a.s and you allege a lie upon Prophet PBUHHP that prophet asked him to lead prayer while Prophet was already there. And there was no verse of purification revealed for Abu Bakar and every sunni admits that he was fallible. 

1 hour ago, just a muslim said:

ayat tatheer. 33:33. it was revealed for the wives but also applied on the 5, prophet himself, Ali, Fatima and hasan and hussain AS.

No, brother., read in various commentaries of Sunnis and Shias where Bibi Umm-e-Salema and Bibi Ayesha narrated that they were not among Ahlebait a.s. Also, there is another question, for you in the beginning of the verse, it is written that to wives do not go out of homes so it is a historical fact that Bibi Ayesha went out of her home after the demise of Prophet PBUHHP and violated the one part of the verse so do you think that she was disobedient to Quran and was also a sinner and fought against a nominated Khalifa ? 

 

1 hour ago, just a muslim said:

have read various hadith from sunnis that this verse was revealed for the wives and the prophet pbuh applied it to the five mentioned above as well.

You have read this from Sunnis but never have asked them what evidence have they got that Wives are among Ahlebait while traditions among them say that Bibi Ayesha and Bibi Umm-e-Salema deny that Prophet PBUHHP told them that they are not included in this verses. 

1 hour ago, just a muslim said:

i dont know where you got that Talut story from. but thats besides the point.

i said leadership is a political matter. but i will not say anything else as i have no further knowledge on this.

 

From Quran, Please read Quran and you will find it. 

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45 minutes ago, Sindbad05 said:

Hence proved Umer was a sinner and I do not follow a sinner.

Imam Ali a.s used this as an argument that you have sought an oath of allegiance to me like you gave oath of allegiance to those before him and now since you have taken oath of allegiance to me so how could you go back and fight me. This was a question to Bibi Ayesha, Talha, Zubyar and Muwaviya who always thought that people elected Khalifa, Now, tell me was not according to Imam Ali a.s, Bibi Ayesha, Talha, Zubyar and Muwviya responsible for breaking their oath and fighting a just Khalifa according to them ? 

Your narration about Ali will be a lie because Prophet pbuhhp said Ali is from me and I am from Ali. And Ali is face of God and Ali's zikr is Ibadah as narrated by Abu Bakar so such a person can not be liable to do such thing for which Allah says in Quran: "We have purified you a thorough purification". And, now that Quran is it's witness, your reports have no value bro.

While about Abu Bakar, there are clear evidence in history both in your books and ours that he snatched Fadak from Syeda Zahra a.s and you allege a lie upon Prophet PBUHHP that prophet asked him to lead prayer while Prophet was already there. And there was no verse of purification revealed for Abu Bakar and every sunni admits that he was fallible. 

No, brother., read in various commentaries of Sunnis and Shias where Bibi Umm-e-Salema and Bibi Ayesha narrated that they were not among Ahlebait a.s. Also, there is another question, for you in the beginning of the verse, it is written that to wives do not go out of homes so it is a historical fact that Bibi Ayesha went out of her home after the demise of Prophet PBUHHP and violated the one part of the verse so do you think that she was disobedient to Quran and was also a sinner and fought against a nominated Khalifa ? 

 

You have read this from Sunnis but never have asked them what evidence have they got that Wives are among Ahlebait while traditions among them say that Bibi Ayesha and Bibi Umm-e-Salema deny that Prophet PBUHHP told them that they are not included in this verses. 

From Quran, Please read Quran and you will find it. 

ya akhi. all this. this is vague and general claims. this is not how a discussion goes. i cant respond unless you bring me a hadith or an ayah. there is not a single one mentioned in this reply of yours.

 

i am guessing you havent read nahjul balagha. otherwise you wouldnt be saying that about Umar RA.

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1 hour ago, just a muslim said:

ya akhi. all this. this is vague and general claims. this is not how a discussion goes. i cant respond unless you bring me a hadith or an ayah. there is not a single one mentioned in this reply of yours.

 

i am guessing you havent read nahjul balagha. otherwise you wouldnt be saying that about Umar RA.

hahahah, habibi, I have quoted clear Quranic verses and Hadith above if you see and I also have read that sermon in Nehjul Balagha which you are speaking about. You did not give one single answer to me and that shows that you have admitted the facts that Bibi Ayesha, Talha and Zubyar did wrong and Muwaviya was already an infamous person bro. 

I would not advance in this discussion unless you agree to Imam Ali a.s' sermon where he a.s proved them as disloyal to their oaths. 

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7 hours ago, Sindbad05 said:

hahahah, habibi, I have quoted clear Quranic verses and Hadith above if you see and I also have read that sermon in Nehjul Balagha which you are speaking about. You did not give one single answer to me and that shows that you have admitted the facts that Bibi Ayesha, Talha and Zubyar did wrong and Muwaviya was already an infamous person bro. 

I would not advance in this discussion unless you agree to Imam Ali a.s' sermon where he a.s proved them as disloyal to their oaths. 

no you didnt akhi. the only things you quoted were quran 33:33 and one hadith which had no relevance to this discussion. i am asking you to prove your claims about abu bakr,, ayesha, talha and zubair etc. i am saying these claims are from history books, not authentic sources.

in nahjul balagha, i am talking about Ali's khutba where he praises Umar in very high words. not some other khutba. and other khutbas where he considers umar to be a mu'min and follows him as well. if you had read nahjul balagha, you wouldnt be saying these things about umar. not to mention your unique deduction of umar being a sinner because he called taraweeh a bidah. 

proved whom as disloyal? and that isnt what this thread is about, is it? it was about sunni contradictions. so i assumed you meant that there was contradiction within sunni sources. hence i was providing sunni references and that should be sufficient to clear the "contradictions".

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3 hours ago, just a muslim said:

no you didnt akhi. the only things you quoted were quran 33:33 and one hadith which had no relevance to this discussion. i am asking you to prove your claims about abu bakr,, ayesha, talha and zubair etc. i am saying these claims are from history books, not authentic sources.

in nahjul balagha, i am talking about Ali's khutba where he praises Umar in very high words. not some other khutba. and other khutbas where he considers umar to be a mu'min and follows him as well. if you had read nahjul balagha, you wouldnt be saying these things about umar. not to mention your unique deduction of umar being a sinner because he called taraweeh a bidah. 

proved whom as disloyal? and that isnt what this thread is about, is it? it was about sunni contradictions. so i assumed you meant that there was contradiction within sunni sources. hence i was providing sunni references and that should be sufficient to clear the "contradictions".

Ya Akhi, I think you have not pondered what I have mentioned. 

Verse 33:33 mentions that Abu Bakar, Umer and Usman were not true Khalifas appointed by Allah because they are not infallible which is one condition for Imamate or Caliphate which is mentioned in Quran

[Shakir 76:24] Therefore wait patiently for the command of your Lord, and obey not from among them a sinner or an ungrateful one.

Since all three of them were sinners and fallible so they are ruled out of 12 Imams of Quraish. 

Secondly, Verse 33:33 Proves that Imams are only from Ahlebait of Prophet PBUHHP and they were Muhammad, Ali, Fatima, Hasan and Hussain and the following Imams. This was the reason that the Imams after them were called Sons of Prophets. 

Another Evidence was from yourself which you gave from Nehjul Balagha which proves that we Shias are right in saying that Bibi Ayesha, Talha and Zubayr did mistakes and violated their oath which they took before Imam Ali a.s.

Now, if you accept the above facts, I would further go on providing you traditions about Ghadeer-e-Khum and if you do not say that Bibi Ayesha, Talha and Zubayr did not do wrong, then why wasting my time and yours bro ? 


 

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